Guess the % and cc on dressage test

[xspiralx]

Surely, even if I were to get the vet out, his lameness is so so slight that the vet wouldn't really be able to do anything about it.

Afraid I don't agree with this - I wouldn't say it was 'so slight' at all, to me it is quite obvious and made me wince a bit when I was watching the video.

Also, if he has been this way since October and is still no better, then it is obviously not something that is improving with time and work, and for that reason alone I would get a vet out to check.

 

[rowy]

Rowy

I went through a similar thing resently with people thinking my 5 year gangly horse was not right, various people looked and could not put finger on it exact but felt he defo did not look right, gave him 3 weeks off they seen no improvement.

To make it worse I could not see anything wrong with him, I started to get really worried and upset at the thought my baby was broken.

I was been told different advice all the whole he was off work , in the end I was like sack this I'm getting the vet.

I needed to know for sure even though I could not see it.

Anyway vet came done work up and told me......

Your horse is 110% sound and if I'd just vetted him he would of past with flying colours..!!

I was delighted , anyway my mind was at rest and I could get back on with his program knowing he defo ok.

Cost me £90 but worth it for my own piece of mind.

If I was you if get your vet out to put your mind at rest as I think you will keep worrying he not right. And tbh a vet is who can give you real confidence not a saddler or Physo.

Anyhow that's my recent experience. Hope your lad is ok too xx

Thanks for that It will definitely be my next step once I have had another look at him and am concerned.

*Hops on the bandwagon*

I'm sorry but he is definitely unlevel.

You know your horse best but you obviously had your doubts otherwise you wouldn't have posted about it.

You've had some very experienced people tell you he's not right, have another look, be totally objective and if you think he looks right on the video then I'd be v surprised.

If he was mine I'd do a bute trial.. It's cheap and you'll see results PDQ if it is pain related, then you can investigate if there is a positive result for pain.

Yes I can see in the test video he does look tense and stiff behind. But I can honest *hand on my heart* say I can see nothing wrong with his hind leg on the warm up video and other videos I have of him not in a test situation where there of course will be tension. And in fact, some of the other test videos I have watched over and over again I can't see anything.
I dont think i am oblivious to lameness etc as my other mare went very slightly lame and I noticed it straight away when I was riding even though it wasn't obvious on the ground and straight awat called the vet!!
The vet said that it MUST be either laminitis or a abscess. Que panic if it is laminitis and us wrapping up her foot. A week later and still lame and no abcess and been on a restricted diet if it was laminitis and called the physio. Physio came out and straight away notice heat in her fetlock and said she had probably just sprained her fetlock in the field (she had been hoolying about the day before she went lame) and to give her rest and slowly bring her back into work. and I now have a sound horse!
I have also had a vet do a vetting on a horse I was selling and apparently he was going to go blind (he was a 5 year old ISH) we panic'd so bad but decided to get another vet to look and surprise surprise he had nothing wrong with his eyes. Horse was then sold and went on to do eventing without going blind lol.

After the judge had said what she said I got the physio out (the same time as he decided to have girth issues and kept bucking in canter and thought initially it might be his back he had tweaked or the saddle- people on this forum thought he had done his hind suspensories). Physio came out saw him trot up fine and do that turn-on the forehand thing to check he was stepping under himself all fine. Lunged him and then rode him for a fair amount of time. She then did a full check of him and found extremely mild tightness in his off fore flank area. She said when i was riding she could see that it did look like he was going unlevel at times behind but that it was just his baby balance. (she also said that the chance he had done his suspensories was 0 because he was COMPLETELY sound in walk and trot.

Also, the reason i posted because I was hoping to get test riding feedback as was hoping to improve our marks to qualify for novice BD regionals and this forum always gives such good feedback on test riding technque and those that haved CC'd my riding I have learnt a lot from

I was just pondering on a bute trial- can you get bute though without getting your horse checked?

 

[rowy]

I might regret this but here goes ...

This horse was at a similar age as yours (with a known mild left stringhalt)

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mMu8_oroU5g

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FodcvMIx2-8

He hadn't been pulled up by a judge and he'd 'passed' basic flexions with the vet and nothing picked up by Osteo. He was behind the leg and I was constantly niggling, he was bracing on the contact. Trainer and I were in continual evaluation as to why.

I felt very uncomfortable that I was missing something. There were some significant veterinary findings 4 months later after he had continued to work ..

I can't seem to get the videos to work...

 

[ihatework]

That's a shame but probably my saviour!! Havent figured out mobile YouTube doh!

 

[xspiralx]

If you delete the "m." at the beginning of the URL the videos will play on a computer

 

[MillionDollar]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMu8_oroU5g

 

[only_me]

Just as an aside, could it be possible he has ulcers? Amateur view here but if he has ulcers could that be causing the stiffness and making him appear unlevel?
Could be completely way off the mark, but I work daily with people in pain and it makes the body do all sorts of strange things to compensate!

 

[MillionDollar]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWPIWBZNXLg

 

[MillionDollar]

After the judge had said what she said I got the physio out (the same time as he decided to have girth issues and kept bucking in canter and thought initially it might be his back he had tweaked or the saddle- people on this forum thought he had done his hind suspensories). Physio came out saw him trot up fine and do that turn-on the forehand thing to check he was stepping under himself all fine. Lunged him and then rode him for a fair amount of time. She then did a full check of him and found extremely mild tightness in his off fore flank area. She said when i was riding she could see that it did look like he was going unlevel at times behind but that it was just his baby balance. (she also said that the chance he had done his suspensories was 0 because he was COMPLETELY sound in walk and trot.

When I was having issues with my lad I went down the physio route......trainer (extremely experienced) and physio were convinced it was a shoulder muscle issue, and to be fair he did always feel loads better after a treatment, which was probably becuase he had a day or 2 off after. But it wasn't the issue at all, it was foot balance in both front feet.

 

[Daytona]

Ihatework

What did the find find with your horse.?? I watched your videos but could not see anything but in far from a expert on hind lameness, unless its clearly short I struggle to see it if I'm honest. I just don't have the eye for it.

Nice horse though.

 

[Daytona]

Vet find

 

[rowy]

Million dollar- that is interesting and actually he is barefoot behind even though he has quite flat feet and soles and can be quite footy- would it be worth putting his shoes back on do u think?

 

[ihatework]

If you look really hard you can just about make out the LH stringhalt, but that is a red herring for this horse.

He showed a diagonal line of bone scan hot spots, L hock, L sacro, spine, R neck. Imaging of neck spine hock clear. Likely the primary finding was quite severe damage to sacroiliac ligament.

He hung himself by a back leg on a horse walker 3 months prior to that video and suffered 'twist' injuries ...

 

[Daytona]

Aww :-(

Has he recovered .??

Nope I defo can't see it, but as I said unless short etc I just don't have the eye for it.

 

[maxine1985]

If you look really hard you can just about make out the LH stringhalt, but that is a red herring for this horse.

He showed a diagonal line of bone scan hot spots, L hock, L sacro, spine, R neck. Imaging of neck spine hock clear. Likely the primary finding was quite severe damage to sacroiliac ligament.

He hung himself by a back leg on a horse walker 3 months prior to that video and suffered 'twist' injuries ...

Stringhalt looked quite obvious to me, but didnt look happy in his back and neck so can see why bone scanned showed what it did, hope he made a full recovery

Having had 6 horses referred and bone scanned over the last couple of years i sometimes feel im being paranoid for getting a vet out for mild or even no lameness but just not feeling right!

But all have had significant problems usually showing as bilateral (hence why doesnt seem too severe) ranging from Kissing Spines, fractured sacral vertabrea, fractured neck, fractured stifle, fractured rib, foot balance, some have been fixable others not, but i do believe a bone scan is invaluable at helping diagnose

 

[ester]

has your physio ever seen him ridden? If not I think it would be wrong to take their word as gospel on his soundness.

 

[siennamum]

My grey horse was dropping a hip and tight in his back, so I left him in a field for 6 months, with the odd walk out to keep him ticking over. My son's horse does slightly (very much less than yours) what your horse does Rowy, he twists his off hind and places it crookedly on the floor and is sometimes on 3 tracks. I was going to get the vet for a full work up, but as we have done more suppling and lateral work he has started moving straight. I think he is influenced by being much wider in front than behind physically.

These issues with both horses raised big flags of alarm for me, because any gait issues now will cause problems later, let alone the issue of how it affects their attitude and training. I watch minutely for changes or irregularities in their movement.

I would be cautious using a physio or instructor for a lameness diagnosis Rowy, it will cost the same to have the vet test him, and it could just be a strain. I know so many horses who were worked through issues whilst under the care of a physio/osteo/chiro, and they turned out to have issues elsewhere.

 

[maxine1985]

I would be cautious using a physio or instructor for a lameness diagnosis Rowy, it will cost the same to have the vet test him, and it could just be a strain. I know so many horses who were worked through issues whilst under the care of a physio/osteo/chiro, and they turned out to have issues elsewhere.

Ditto!

 

[Angua2]

A friend on my old yard has an appy x welsh and he moves very similar, she has had tests done for EPSM

 

[rowy]

I was just looking through the video and noticed the dropping of the hip and how he occassionally brings his off hind in and on 3 tracks at times. I was looking through my old videos of us doing our first ever dressage test (w&T) to see if he was better/ worse etc back then and I actually noticed the dropping of the hip and the off hind crossing over way more back then. In fact he even did it on the right rein when he lost balance on the corners and wasn't bending the correct way. However, he was going a lot more forward in the video from back then as he looks much thinner (highlighting the importance that I keep him at the correct weight.

A friend on my old yard has an appy x welsh and he moves very similar, she has had tests done for EPSM

That is interesting. Its funny, he does lengthen his stride and go much less "choppy" when I use the massage pad before I ride and I tried the fairfax girth on him and also noticed he had a longer smoother stride with that as well.

What is really interesting is that I always used a wintec girth with sheepskin on his dressage saddle since I had it. Then in the autumn 2012 (just before that dressage test I think) I changed him to the professional choice girth because he had started getting grumpy when I did the sheepskin girth up and also I have problems keeping his saddle stable because he is xxxwide and with no withers and he moves so so much over his back that it moves the saddle.
With the professional choice girth he wasn't grumpy when I did it up any more and felt less choppy.
However then we had the whole bucking debarcle because of it so moved him back to the wintec and sheepskin and he completely stopped bucking (in fact he hasn't bucked for aaaggees) but he has started to get grumpy when being girthed up again.
If I dont use the massage pad before I ride him he circles round and round his stable while I am trying to put his saddle on and girth it up but if I do use the massage pad first he stands still as a rock and doesn't move.

Also, if he had hind limb lameness, would it mean that he would less likely want to collect and bring his bum underneath him? Because he has recently got soooo much better at collection and we have started doing walk to canters and when he anticipates it he starts piaffing- and I mean proper piaffe- he brings his bum low to the ground and underneath him and piaffes on the spot like fuego lol.

 

[SpottedCat]

Well one theory with massage pads is that they over-stimulate the nerves, meaning they can't fire any more (to do with the need for a 'recharge' period before a nerve can fire again - layman's terms, can give you the full scientific explanation if you want), so all massage pads do is effectively 'deaden' the area for a bit rather than relax muscles (which is what people want to believe they do). So the fact he is better to saddle after the pad indicates to me that there may well be a saddle/back pain issue, and back issues do often stem from limb lameness issues. So everything you've said on here would lead me to wanting a decent competition horse vet to do a lameness/loss of performance workup on him. Sorry.

 

[rowy]

Sc- would love the scientific knowledge if possible as I am doing a degree is equine so would be interested. Also the biggest effect it has is on my older mare as she is the reason I bought it as she was so tense and crazy and choppy to ride in the winter but since using it she has much longer stride length and was far far more relaxed

Also- his stride length gets longer and smoother when I don't use a massage pad but when I do use the fairfax girth so how would this relate to lameness in this case?
Also, he seemed to be worst when he was just backed and has improved over the years as his training has progressed.

Sorry I'm just really interested in what your hypothesis is and trying to get my head around what it is, if he is, is lame.

I just showed my friend the vid who is on the same degree as me and she noticed the dropping of the hip but said he doesnt look in pain or nodding so it could be either but she commented that a full lameness work up is a lot to put a young horse through on a whim but she suggested showing my physio the video and asking for strengthening exercises and that if he gets worse straight away or there is no improvement then it indicates it is lameness and not just babyness which makes sense.
I am also interested in maybe doing a bute test that someone mentioned earlier but where would I get bute from?

 

[pootleperkin]

Given your info about saddles, his broad back and differences in his behaviour with different girth etc, it might be an idea to try him in a treeless saddle (Solutions energist) just to see how he reacts to that.

I'm not going to try and read anything into that, re: back pain being connected to hind limb lameness etc, I just think it would be interesting and might be a useful experiment for you

PS - if you want to do a bute test, I think you are going to have to involve your vet in one way or another.....if he is insured for vet fees, then you don't want to be doing anything that might prevent a claim further down the line. Why not ring your vet and have a chat, saying what your slight concern is and what you want to do. Mine would be quite open to it as we have a good relationship, but would probably want to see the horse first.

 

[maxine1985]

I just showed my friend the vid who is on the same degree as me and she noticed the dropping of the hip but said he doesnt look in pain or nodding so it could be either but she commented that a full lameness work up is a lot to put a young horse through on a whim but she suggested showing my physio the video and asking for strengthening exercises and that if he gets worse straight away or there is no improvement then it indicates it is lameness and not just babyness which makes sense.
I am also interested in maybe doing a bute test that someone mentioned earlier but where would I get bute from?

A lameness work up doesnt put the horse through anything it shouldnt have experienced already! It can be as simple as decent horse vet seeing the horse trot up, on the lunge and possible ridden, they may say he's 100% sound but i doubt it! If he's not sound then I would want to find out why, unsound = pain from somewhere, whether muscular, joint, ligament or something else!

This explains it quite well
http://www.aht.org.uk/cms-display/equineocl.html

Is he not insured?

Bute is only available from your vet or with a prescription from your vet

 

[CBAnglo]

From the video I thought off-side sacroiliac. He does look very straight through his hocks as well, which is normally a sign of suspensory injury. If your chiro/physio presses down on the sacroiliac does he react at all?

The horse does not bend well on that rein and turns his neck out - there is no relaxation at the poll which means that he is tense through his spine and is bracing against you.

What is he like when he is having his back feet done?

All of your comments about the massage pad etc suggests a hind leg issue manifesting as a back problem.

ETA: agree with post above re lameness work up. First there will be flexions and trot up, then lunging on a hard surface and then possibly ridden assessment. I have done so many lameness work-ups over the years and I have never had a horse pushed beyond what I thought was appropriate except once at Rossdales years ago where I was bullied by the vet in question - never made that mistake again and still feel so awful that I let it happen in the first place.

 

[Scarlett]

I was just looking through the video and noticed the dropping of the hip and how he occassionally brings his off hind in and on 3 tracks at times. I was looking through my old videos of us doing our first ever dressage test (w&T) to see if he was better/ worse etc back then and I actually noticed the dropping of the hip and the off hind crossing over way more back then. In fact he even did it on the right rein when he lost balance on the corners and wasn't bending the correct way. However, he was going a lot more forward in the video from back then as he looks much thinner (highlighting the importance that I keep him at the correct weight.



That is interesting. Its funny, he does lengthen his stride and go much less "choppy" when I use the massage pad before I ride and I tried the fairfax girth on him and also noticed he had a longer smoother stride with that as well.

What is really interesting is that I always used a wintec girth with sheepskin on his dressage saddle since I had it. Then in the autumn 2012 (just before that dressage test I think) I changed him to the professional choice girth because he had started getting grumpy when I did the sheepskin girth up and also I have problems keeping his saddle stable because he is xxxwide and with no withers and he moves so so much over his back that it moves the saddle.
With the professional choice girth he wasn't grumpy when I did it up any more and felt less choppy.
However then we had the whole bucking debarcle because of it so moved him back to the wintec and sheepskin and he completely stopped bucking (in fact he hasn't bucked for aaaggees) but he has started to get grumpy when being girthed up again.
If I dont use the massage pad before I ride him he circles round and round his stable while I am trying to put his saddle on and girth it up but if I do use the massage pad first he stands still as a rock and doesn't move.

Also, if he had hind limb lameness, would it mean that he would less likely want to collect and bring his bum underneath him? Because he has recently got soooo much better at collection and we have started doing walk to canters and when he anticipates it he starts piaffing- and I mean proper piaffe- he brings his bum low to the ground and underneath him and piaffes on the spot like fuego lol.

There is no black and white or simple flow chart diagnosis for lameness, each horse will exhibit different symptoms, personally I would worry about a horse that reacted to a saddle like that and that needed a massage pad to be comfortable. That rings massive alarm bells with me, especially in a horse his age. He's weak, you can see that in the bum-high confo pic, which wont be helping either.

The fact is, his willingness to collect or not, he looks unlevel/lame in the vids and he needs looked at. If he trots up straight then show the vet these vids and ride him for them. Theres something going on whether its balance, schooling, lameness or whatever.

Also, a horse that cannot trot off the leg in a straight line isn't ready for collected work IMO and should be given the opportunity to offer piaffe, no matter how like Fuego he feels. Establish the basics, then go over them again, then maybe again... then when he's bigger, stronger and older he can move on, from the vids you put up he is no where near able to produce correct collection or lateral work. Sorry.

 

[SpottedCat]

Ok, so brief physiology of nerve action lesson:

Basically neurones (nerve cells) exist in an inactive state until something stimulates them. This inactive state is known as the 'resting potential'. The nerve is polarised at this point and is negative on the inside of the cell and positive on the outside of the cell. A stimulus to the nerve cell opens gated ion channels (gated means only specific ions can pass through, in this case sodium ions, which are positive), and they flood into the cell. A threshold needs to be reached for the nerve cell to fire - this means enough positive sodium ions need to move across the cell membrane for the polarisation of the cell to hit the required threshold - a weak stimulus will not open enough gated ion channels for this to happen. However, once the threshold is reached, this in turn opens more gated ion channels, which means that even more sodium ions flood into the cell. This changes the polarisation of the cell, and what is called the action potential is reached - which is the nerve firing. Having depolarised the cell, and reached the action potential, this causes different gated ion channels to open within the cell membrane and positive potassium ions to leave the cell - which repolarises it. However, during this process, more positive ions leave the cell than entered it, which leads to a period called the refractory period, when the nerve cell cannot fire because it has hyperpolarised, so the threshold can't be reached because the number of gated ion channels which open with a stimulus do not allow in enough positive ions for the threshold to be reached.

There is a good explanation here: https://kel-tay-lii.wikispaces.com/D.+Nervous+System-+Neurons+and+Synapse

The theory with massage pads is that they cause the nerve cells to fire with such rapidity initially that the refractory period becomes longer because the hyperpolarization is greater. There are various studies which back this up (I've linked the abstract of one below), the mechanism is thought to be both a long lasting change in potassium conduction and the activity of an electrogenic pump (which is effectively the gated ion channels that cause the nerve to work in the first place).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4693676

I'm not sure I understand your friend's theory that a lameness workup is a lot to put a young horse through - all the performance vets I've used start with trotting up in hand in a straight line, then lunge the horse, then flexion it, then see it under saddle, then decide whether or not to nerve block/x-ray/bute trial. So to start with the lameness workup is nothing more or less than you'd do with the horse anyway in the course of its work (aside from the flexions!). You'd get bute from a vet to do the trial.

 

[rowy]

There is no black and white or simple flow chart diagnosis for lameness, each horse will exhibit different symptoms, personally I would worry about a horse that reacted to a saddle like that and that needed a massage pad to be comfortable. That rings massive alarm bells with me, especially in a horse his age. He's weak, you can see that in the bum-high confo pic, which wont be helping either.

The fact is, his willingness to collect or not, he looks unlevel/lame in the vids and he needs looked at. If he trots up straight then show the vet these vids and ride him for them. Theres something going on whetherits balance or whatever.

Also, a horse that cannot trot off the leg in a straight line isn't ready for collected work IMO and should be given the opportunity to offer piaffe, no matter how like Fuego he feels. Establish the basics, then go over them again, then maybe again... then when he's bigger, stronger and older he can move on, from the vids you put up he is no where near able to produce correct collection or lateral work. Sorry.

I didn't say he is only comfortable after having a massage pad!! I said I bought it for my other horse and he seems to enjoy having it on and I have noticed a slight lengthening in stride length and he stretches down a bit better in it!! Like I would imagine most horses after having it on.
When I say he walks around when i put the saddle on, he just fidgits a bit and I have to have him completely square and look from behind to get the saddle on his back straight- I am not joking when I say he has no withers so the only way to get the saddle straight is to look from behind. He has been a nghtmare to saddle fit from the beginning, my saddler says he is the kind of shape not built for a saddle lol.
I do not ask for piaffe and as soon as he does it I drive him forwards as I do not want him to get in that habit! Particularly not a in test situation! I was just commenting that he appears to find collection very easy.
I don't ask for collection in the trot but have been working on simple changes with him in my lessons and therefore need him to collect in the canter before asking for walk.

 

[rowy]

From the video I thought off-side sacroiliac. He does look very straight through his hocks as well, which is normally a sign of suspensory injury. If your chiro/physio presses down on the sacroiliac does he react at all?

The horse does not bend well on that rein and turns his neck out - there is no relaxation at the poll which means that he is tense through his spine and is bracing against you.

What is he like when he is having his back feet done?

All of your comments about the massage pad etc suggests a hind leg issue manifesting as a back problem.

ETA: agree with post above re lameness work up. First there will be flexions and trot up, then lunging on a hard surface and then possibly ridden assessment. I have done so many lameness work-ups over the years and I have never had a horse pushed beyond what I thought was appropriate except once at Rossdales years ago where I was bullied by the vet in question - never made that mistake again and still feel so awful that I let it happen in the first place.

He is absolutely fine have his feet done. He is barefoot behind and shod in front. He is very footy particularly when spring grass is coming through as we have a stony drive. I was just pondering to mum whether he would be better with a full set of shoes on as maybe it is the footyness that is causing him to be a bit wary about placing his feet down- the reason he may be worse at other venues with different surface.

No physio has not found anything in his sacroiliac. The only place she found very very mild tightness- like barely noticable, is in his offside loin.

 

[SpottedCat]

[Content removed at OP's request]

I think you need to ask around and see who the professionals locally use. As for your dad - well, probably telling him 'coz people on a forum said so' isn't a great idea, but telling him since the judge commented on it you've been keeping an eye on him, and you're not convinced he is quite right and you're happy to forgo X lessons/competitions to cover the cost of the excess on the insurance might have a better result