Guide dog training

[Moobli]

I am surprised guide dogs have ever (in recent years) been trained using anything other than reward based training.

Rewards-led training regime behind long waits for UK guide dogs, says campaigner | Blindness and visual impairment | The Guardian

Guide Dogs UK defended its methods and blamed drop in number of trained dogs on Covid

amp.theguardian.com

 

[skinnydipper]

“We are proud to use ethical, evidence-based practices which maintain the highest level of dog welfare. We make no apologies for eliminating physical punishment or techniques which are proven to cause fear and stress to dogs. Our firm and unwavering view is that society has progressed and that we must move with the times.”

Good.

 

[Kat_Bath]

This is a good article, but I don't think it goes into enough detail, probably because it's for a lay audience. One of my very good friends had to wait a very long time for her second dog and also feels the new training regime isn't quite suited to working dogs (working being the key word there).

To my knowledge, Guides dogs were not trained using physical and/or negative reinforcement or punishment in the first place, but I'll be sending this to Rachel for her thoughts. It's more that the new regime isn't suitable for working dogs.

Her feelings are that new, reward-based training regime is creating dependancy on food, similar to pet dogs, and that the guidelines now are to reward every step of the way. This means that dogs are not necessarily concentrating on the job, but seeking food constantly. It also has an effect on their eating habits as Guide Dogs say to take rewards from meals (which we all should to a degree), but it means that sometimes, dogs aren't getting even a meal a day.

Rachel would agree that the drop in the number of dogs is not related to the pandemic. I believe there have also been a lot of high-level changes at the top of Guide Dogs and that has had a significant impact on a lot of the activities they carry out, and not in a good way.

 

[CorvusCorax]

I also know a few people who worked for them previously.

It used to be quite tough/exacting, because a dog making a mistep could mean the difference between life or death.

Now it's gone completely the other way and I know of a man in town who has been left in some dangerous situations because of a poorly trained dog that he feels too attached to, to give up. It also eats his house.

The life of any service dog is not all marshmallows and unicorns, it can be tough and stressful.

The same for humans. To expect any animal to go through life completely without stress is highly unrealistic.

 

[Thundering]

This is a good article, but I don't think it goes into enough detail, probably because it's for a lay audience. One of my very good friends had to wait a very long time for her second dog and also feels the new training regime isn't quite suited to working dogs (working being the key word there).

To my knowledge, Guides dogs were not trained using physical and/or negative reinforcement or punishment in the first place, but I'll be sending this to Rachel for her thoughts. It's more that the new regime isn't suitable for working dogs.

Her feelings are that new, reward-based training regime is creating dependancy on food, similar to pet dogs, and that the guidelines now are to reward every step of the way. This means that dogs are not necessarily concentrating on the job, but seeking food constantly. It also has an effect on their eating habits as Guide Dogs say to take rewards from meals (which we all should to a degree), but it means that sometimes, dogs aren't getting even a meal a day.

Rachel would agree that the drop in the number of dogs is not related to the pandemic. I believe there have also been a lot of high-level changes at the top of Guide Dogs and that has had a significant impact on a lot of the activities they carry out, and not in a good way.

Exactly this. The article talks about " punishment" that is misleading as a firm no is punishment and as dogs have visually impaired peoples lives in their care it is important they do know they have to behave. Positive reward training is all very well and I agree with it 100% however it can go too far at times. Too much emphasis on food rewards can have its difficulties. Think about how a blind person can cope with a dog and giving food rewards at exactly the right time. Or not. Think about how much some dogs drool when they know food is around, Imagine a blind person going to work in a dark suit and getting covered in drool because the dog is expecting food all the time.
There is a lot more to this than people realise. Its more to do with people at the top not knowing enough about training dogs.

 

[Thundering]

I also know a few people who worked for them previously.

It used to be quite tough/exacting, because a dog making a mistep could mean the difference between life or death.

Now it's gone completely the other way and I know of a man in town who has been left in some dangerous situations because of a poorly trained dog that he feels too attached to, to give up. It also eats his house.

The life of any service dog is not all marshmallows and unicorns, it can be tough and stressful.

The same for humans. To expect any animal to go through life completely without stress is highly unrealistic.

Yes 100%. There is more to this than people realise.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Dupe. This forum is becoming unusable on the phone.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Just to add, I do the majority of my training with food.
And yes, if the work isn't good, the dog might not eat as much in that session/day, but it makes a lot of motivation for the next time. The dog also knows consequence for undesirable behaviour - at some time, there has to be an element of 'because I told you to'.

However, the stakes are much lower. My dog can dick off in a competition, at best I will lose some points, at worst, disqualified and everyone can have a good laugh.
I'm not placing my life in the hands of an animal that doesn't stop at a junction or walks me into a strange part of town where I need someone to come and rescue me.

 

[Sandstone1]

I guess it comes down to the question once again of how we use animals does it not? Do police dogs, sheep dogs and sniffer dogs etc all have perfect lives and training? There does have to be some element of punishment in most animal training. This does not have to be harsh physical punishment. A No for example is not harsh but expecting a dog who has a persons life in its care not to know it has to behave in certain situations is not realistic. Working dogs and pet dogs are somewhat different. The big problem with Guide dogs is that the people at the top of the organisation although well meaning have put new ways of training in place which are pretty unrealistic. 100% reward based training which works for pet dogs does not always work for working dogs. That is not to say working dogs need harsh physical punishment at all but to rely so much on food based reward training for some working dogs is not going to work.
The big problem is that guide dogs have brought people in to train staff who although may be fantastic at training pet dogs do not really understand that guide dog owners are not dog trainers.
Working guide dogs with blind owners have very different issues than pet dogs. Having guide dogs so focused on food is not going to work. Imagine trying to reward your dog at exactly the right time if you can not see. A working guide dog needs to be looking where its going not be focused on looking at the handler for food for obvious reasons.

 

[KittenInTheTree]

Tbh I think it would be fairer to the animals and safer for the humans involved if we started using purpose built robots for at least some of these roles. I say this as someone who owns a dog who actively supports them during seizures. He does so off his own bat, but it still isn't fair on him, and I feel massive guilt every time it happens.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Tbh I think it would be fairer to the animals and safer for the humans involved if we started using purpose built robots for at least some of these roles. I say this as someone who owns a dog who actively supports them during seizures. He does so off his own bat, but it still isn't fair on him, and I feel massive guilt every time it happens.

'Family' dogs have historically always been 'better' at this/detecting when something is about to happen than dogs purposely trained for the job as they already have a bond with the person and know when changes are happening, if it makes you feel any better!

 

[twiggy2]

Tbh I think it would be fairer to the animals and safer for the humans involved if we started using purpose built robots for at least some of these roles. I say this as someone who owns a dog who actively supports them during seizures. He does so off his own bat, but it still isn't fair on him, and I feel massive guilt every time it happens.

Why do you not feel it's fair on him?

 

[FinnishLapphund]

The Guide dog training methods which I've seen snippets of, already seemed to be mainly about positive rewards. But things like e.g. being able to continue forward after working their way around something, or getting a Good Boy/Girl said in a happy tone, also counts (counted?) as a positive reward, not only getting an edible treat.

Some humans with Service dogs may have needs that does ask a lot of their dogs, but I still think those dogs are overall a lot happier than the uncountable number of pet dogs I've met with problems caused by the lack of mental stimulation. Dogs of some breeds can be happy just knowing their everyday obedience, and get their main mental stimulation satisfied by going for walks reading their Scent of Today "newspaper". However, too many dog owners with such a lifestyle doesn't own such a dog.
Besides, a lot of dogs even of those easier to satisfy breeds, often enjoys it if they do get to use their brain a bit more.

I think it would be a very sad day if AI took over most or all Guide, and other Service dog work. Some people can get attached to mechanical pets, and they can be made to become very life-like, but it's still not the same as having something living to care for.
I don't have a service dog, but I've been told that with my Narcolepsy, and Asperger's added to that, I would most likely qualify to have one if I wanted to go that route. My reason to get up, and take care of myself every day, is my pets. I just don't think there's any way to create an AI dog that would make me force myself to take care of myself, just so that I would be able to take care of the AI dog, the same way as my real life pet does.

Either way, it's very sad that people who need a Guide dog have to wait for an even longer time to get one than what they used to. And if the Guide dogs they do send out isn't as good at their work as they used to be, then clearly those in charge needs to go back to the drawing board, and find a golden mean, because that's not acceptable.

 

[misst]

This is very interesting for someone who only has had pet dogs and I guess never really considered the question of "working" a dog. I think I did think that working dogs had happy busy lives which fulfilled them - which is likely true most of the time. But I have never thought about the importance of obedience and concentration in a guide dog or similar. I think I just saw them and thought "ahhhh". I will keep reading.

 

[Morwenna]

I listened to an interesting podcast that essentially said that the problem with some positive reinforcement only trainers is that they are too permissive which could clearly cause issues with a service dog of any kind. I think it’s good that so many pet dog owners are turning more to positive reinforcement but there is often a lack of understanding about how much longer this can take. It’s great if you can dedicate large amounts of your time to training and can always control your environment but sadly that’s not the case for most people and certainly explains some of the ineffectual owners I see around. It’s very easy to confuse the dog using these methods if you are not an experienced trainer. As far as I know, guide dog training is in two phases - the puppies are trained by volunteers and this programme has recently been re-written and is positive reinforcement based. I know less about the second pass but this is where I think there is probably a place for a more balanced approach that is easier to sustain for people who need a service dog but are not able to devote their lives to continuing their training in this way and who ultimately rely on the dog to keep them safe so need to be able to trust it to do it’s job whatever the environment, even if they are not holding a treat under its nose at the time.

 

[CorvusCorax]

I don't know what it's like now but the breeding programme used to produce extremely low drive dogs, which is another huge factor in training - the genetics.

 

[Sandstone1]

I don't know what it's like now but the breeding programme used to produce extremely low drive dogs, which is another huge factor in training - the genetics.

Breeding is a huge factor too, a lot of outside bred dogs are starting to be used now. Some of them with gundog breeding. A steady calm dog is needed for a guide dog so time will tell how that goes! The problems with guide dogs comes from the very top. Its not the people on the shop floor as it were. As in many big companies its the choices made by people very far removed from actually doing the grass roots work.
If you imagine what a child thats never been told no and allowed to make its own choices until it gets to the age of 5 you may have some idea of the problems 100% reward based training causes. For example if your toddler kicks you in the shin would you tell it no or distract it with a lollipop?

 

[Moobli]

I think part of the problem with labels is they cover such a broad spectrum. Positive, reward based training for some means never saying even using a firm voice or teaching a dog what no means. Balanced training seems to conjure images of lots of pinch and ecollars, yet the vast majority of trainers on both sides probably fall into the many shades of grey in the middle for the majority of their training and handling.
Also what is fine for one dog can be very aversive to another (thinking of things like head collars).

 

[rabatsa]

I do not know if it is related to this topic but the local bbc tv channel is having a piece tonight about the lack of puppy walk homes for guide dogs.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Hmm.

I have a family member who, now retired, was a rather eminent child psychiatrist.

His first two children were brought up using positive reinforcement techniques, and ignoring bad behaviour. On reflecting on how that was turning out, numbers three and four were brought up considerably more strictly by the 'No means No' ethos .

 

[skinnydipper]

Positive reinforcement training doesn't mean you (one) ignore bad behaviour.

 

[Clodagh]

Positive reinforcement training doesn't mean you (one) ignore bad behaviour.

interested then, what do you do? If you can’t say stop or no what do you do? Genuine question.

 

[skinnydipper]

interested then, what do you do? If you can’t say stop or no what do you do? Genuine question.

Hasty reply as getting meal ready.

Don't want the dog on the sofa - teach it to go and lie on its bed.
Teach self control:
Don't want barking while you getting its meal ready - stop, sit down or walk away, when the dog is quiet continue getting the meal ready. Repeat as necessary.
Dog barging through door - not good with big dog or multiple dogs. Teach them to sit and wait, open the door and then give them permission to go through.
Barking when you are getting ready to go for a walk, same thing. Stop, do something else.
Jumping up, what would you prefer, a sit? Ask for a sit as an alternative behaviour.

 

[Clodagh]

Hasty reply as getting meal ready.

Don't want the dog on the sofa - teach it to go and lie on its bed.
Teach self control:
Don't want barking while you getting its meal ready - stop, sit down or walk away, when the dog is quiet continue getting the meal ready. Repeat as necessary.
Dog barging through door - not good with big dog or multiple dogs. Teach them to sit and wait, open the door and then give them permission to go through.
Barking when you are getting ready to go for a walk, same thing. Stop, do something else.
Jumping up, what would you prefer, a sit? Ask for a sit as an alternative behaviour.

So, to be contrary, if the dog still does get in the sofa, what do you then do? I would guess call and treat for coming? (Just thinking aloud).

If mine got on the armchair ( are allowed on sofa) I would just tell them to get off, I wouldn’t be cross … unless they were muddy!

 

[skinnydipper]

You're asking someone who wouldn't mind a dog on the sofa

Yeah, I would ask them to get off if I wanted the seat.

 

[Clodagh]

You're asking someone who wouldn't mind a dog on the sofa

Yeah, I would ask them to get off if I wanted the seat.

I was worried you were so fluffy you’d sit on the floor .

 

[Sandstone1]

Positive reinforcement training doesn't mean you (one) ignore bad behaviour.

It does the way Guide dogs are doing it now, which is where the problems are.

 

[Sandstone1]

Hasty reply as getting meal ready.

Don't want the dog on the sofa - teach it to go and lie on its bed.
Teach self control:
Don't want barking while you getting its meal ready - stop, sit down or walk away, when the dog is quiet continue getting the meal ready. Repeat as necessary.
Dog barging through door - not good with big dog or multiple dogs. Teach them to sit and wait, open the door and then give them permission to go through.
Barking when you are getting ready to go for a walk, same thing. Stop, do something else.
Jumping up, what would you prefer, a sit? Ask for a sit as an alternative behaviour.

Yes, thats more like the old way of training guide dogs, with some form of discipline. Now bad behaviour is pretty much ignored and food is used for everything. This is why there are problems. Food obsessed dogs who do not want to do anything if food not on offer. It is really not working.

 

[Smitty]

In all fairness, guide dogs have a lot more to cope with now than they did say 40 years ago, fast traffic, amount of people and sadly some get attacked by other dogs. This must make the amount of dogs that get through the training less in number and surely it would take longer to train them with the conditions they have to deal with today.

 

[Sandstone1]

In all fairness, guide dogs have a lot more to cope with now than they did say 40 years ago, fast traffic, amount of people and sadly some get attacked by other dogs. This must make the amount of dogs that get through the training less in number and surely it would take longer to train them with the conditions they have to deal with today.

This is true, but there are also far more sensitive and less robust dogs now.