Guide dog training

[skinnydipper]

Yes, thats more like the old way of training guide dogs, with some form of discipline. Now bad behaviour is pretty much ignored and food is used for everything. This is why there are problems. Food obsessed dogs who do not want to do anything if food not on offer. It is really not working.

Don't they fade out treats or switch to variable reinforcement? (bear in mind I'm a pet owner, not a trainer and have never owned a lab or a working dog )

 

[Clodagh]

I own 5 working labs currently. Tawny I can see would be capable of guiding, she’s very calm and quietly confident. She’s old fashioned to look at and was bred by someone who balanced work ethic and temperament.
None of my others I can see coping at all, emotionally fragile, hyper and get stressed by stress.
Not that I’ve ever trained anything with such high stakes, training to mine is all positive bar the odd shout as they get to retrieve, which top trumps treats big time.

 

[Sandstone1]

Don't they fade out treats or switch to variable reinforcement? (bear in mind I'm a pet owner, not a trainer and have never owned a lab or a working dog )

That should happen but it does not seem to be. Labs as I am sure you know are very food orientated any way and as volunteers as now using food with puppies they are already very very focused on food before they even start proper guiding training. I am all for positive training but that can also mean vocal or physical praise. I think the powers that be in Guide dogs are really going to have to look at the way things are going.

 

[FinnishLapphund]

... For example if your toddler kicks you in the shin would you tell it no or distract it with a lollipop?

If I had kicked someone in the shin as a toddler, and someone had given me a lollipop as a distraction

I would kick more shins to get more lollipops.

...

 

[Sandstone1]

If I had kicked someone in the shin as a toddler, and someone had given me a lollipop as a distraction

I would kick more shins to get more lollipops.

...

Exactly my point.....

 

[FinnishLapphund]

Exactly my point....

To be honest, I would still react that way even though at soon 49 I really should know better. And to then do it to a toddler/puppy *sigh*

 

[Morwenna]

Positive reinforcement training doesn't mean you (one) ignore bad behaviour.

I think this is the point a lot of people miss. It’s all very well for some high profile trainers to say they’d train their dog to do another behaviour instead but I have heard very few honestly answering the question about what they would do in the moment when their dog does something they don’t want. For the average dog owner who wants to do the right things this leads to ignoring bad behaviour as they don’t know what else to do. It’s all too easy to inadvertently train a behaviours chain so the puppy thinks it can do the fun thing but as long as it sits at some point it gets a treat so it has a double reward.
I think it’s similar to children in a way (and I don’t have kids so maybe I really am taking rubbish). Parents were told smacking was bad and punishing was bad but they weren’t given any alternatives so we ended up with a generation of seat kicking brats with parents ineffectually saying “please don’t do that darling”.

 

[some show]

Yeah, positive reinforcement training is complicated, it's a behavioural science at the end of the day and to try and boil it down to 'give treats for good things, ignore bad things' is wilfully brushing it off as hocum. This woman's website is a really good resource and this page in particular answers some of the beliefs commonly held about it (like 'it ignores bad behaviour'): https://eileenanddogs.com/blog/2015/05/05/myths-about-positive-reinforcement-based-training/

R+ involves positive reinforcement and negative reinforcement, and positive punishment and negative punishment...and 'punishment' doesn't = 'bad' and, well, it's all very complex! I absolutely don't understand all of it, but I love it, it's fascinating. I'm sure there are some R+ trainers who don't understand it either and may just be using 'treats for good things' like Morwenna said, which is doing the whole concept a disservice.

 

[skinnydipper]

Why Ignoring Bad Behavior Doesn’t Work

For today’s topic, we’re going to delve a little deeper into an oft-repeated myth about positive training. Namely, the idea that in order to train a well-mannered companion, you need to do two thi…

www.drjensdogblog.com

 

[Teaselmeg]

As always happens people think reward based training is constantly feeding your dog to stop the behaviour, which it is not. You reward the behaviour that you want and create new neuro pathways in the brain, once the behaviour is ingrained you can increase the time between rewards, until a reward is only needed occasionally. I can't imagine that Guide dog trainers are going to let the dog go to a new person, before all the behaviours are well trained and the dog should not expect to be rewarded until the task is complete.

What is also wrong is expecting a dog to work for all it's daily ration of food, it creates anxiety and gut issues, they need at least some of their food fed as normal from a bowl. I hope this is not the case with any change in Guide dog training, as these dogs are already having their world somewhat regimented.

 

[CorvusCorax]

As always happens, people think that anyone who uses any sort of aversive or is not purely positive only or doesn't train their dogs exactly the same way as they do, is somehow abusing their dog.....

Just checking, is scatter feeding OK? Kong? Feeding on a track? Or does it definitely have to be from a bowl, or the dog will break?
I do appreciate that there are people who take it too far and yes, am aware of dogs with stomach and anxiety problems, I don't advocate it with young puppies and some dogs it does not suit, but as with anything, there is a happy medium IMO.
Applying a blanket approach and saying that one particular method is inherently bad or good with no shades of grey in between is the reason we are in this mess in the first place.

Like I say, I have seen a man taken straight across a junction with no pause from the dog, in front of my own eyes, at the end of my own street.
Putting aside creating new neural pathways or hand feeding, it's to do with a dog that is too high drive for the job, not ever having learned that it should never, ever, do that.

 

[Teaselmeg]

Not sure where I said anything about abuse ?? No training is purely positive, the moment we put a collar and lead on a dog, that goes out the window ! But I will always advocate for a kinder way of training.

Scatter feeding etc is ok, as long as its not the whole of the dog's meal or daily allowance, I use stuffed kongs etc. There is a lot more information now available on the dog not having a constant low level of hunger and frustration in order to be compliant in training. Sniffing and searching is fab and very calming, but it's counter productive to always have the dog hungry at the start when you are trying to create calmness for training or reactivity.

I've seen a man walking in the local town with his guide dog, it was dragging him to a post to have a sniff, it was also overweight, but that may be more to do with the sedentary life it leads, than an excess of food used in training. I think it must be so hard for a guide dog to keep up their training, when their life is so regimented. It takes a special kind of dog to cope with that.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Not sure where I said anything about abuse ?? No training is purely positive, the moment we put a collar and lead on a dog, that goes out the window ! But I will always advocate for a kinder way of training.

Scatter feeding etc is ok, as long as its not the whole of the dog's meal or daily allowance, I use stuffed kongs etc. There is a lot more information now available on the dog not having a constant low level of hunger and frustration in order to be compliant in training. Sniffing and searching is fab and very calming, but it's counter productive to always have the dog hungry at the start when you are trying to create calmness for training or reactivity.

I've seen a man walking in the local town with his guide dog, it was dragging him to a post to have a sniff, it was also overweight, but that may be more to do with the sedentary life it leads, than an excess of food used in training. I think it must be so hard for a guide dog to keep up their training, when their life is so regimented. It takes a special kind of dog to cope with that.

Are you seriously saying that throwing the dog's whole food allowance over the lawn or giving it from the hand in a very short space of time, rather than feeding it from a bowl is somehow damaging? What is magical or more healthy about a bowl?

Yes, very special dogs from what should be a very careful, specialised breeding and training programme.

 

[Teaselmeg]

Are you seriously saying that throwing the dog's whole food allowance over the lawn or giving it from the hand in a very short space of time, rather than feeding it from a bowl is somehow damaging? What is magical or more healthy about a bowl?

Yes, very special dogs from what should be a very careful, specialised breeding and training programme.

Umm yes it can be. Nothing magical about a bowl, just that you are satisfying their basic need for food, before asking them to 'work' for the rest of it. I'm not making this up, it's featured/ mentioned in several behaviour seminars I've attended.

 

[Sandstone1]

Guide dogs in training do get two small meals a day from a bowl. The rest of their daily allow allowance is used during the day for training. They also do have frozen kongs, licky mats and snuffle mats.
They do have a specialised breeding and training programme but unfortunately partly due to covid but mainly due to taking positive reward based training to the extreme which in pet dogs would be fine but for working guide dogs is really not working and has made waiting lists much longer than normal.
Guide dogs has lost its way with training. This is due in the main to decisions made at the top by people who hardly ever touch a dog.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Guide dogs has lost its way with training. This is due in the main to decisions made at the top by people who hardly ever touch a dog.

Yep, that is exactly what everyone I have spoken to who has worked with/close to the organisation has said.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Umm yes it can be. Nothing magical about a bowl, just that you are satisfying their basic need for food, before asking them to 'work' for the rest of it. I'm not making this up, it's featured/ mentioned in several behaviour seminars I've attended.

Were the people giving the seminars promoting a particular training system/their own system/their work/publications/books/businesses, just out of interest?

I would disagree that a pet dog eating some food off the floor over a relatively small surface area in its own back garden or taking two or three handfuls of kibble rather than out of a bowl is in some way damaging. That's not 'work', it's just eating from a different surface/in a different way, but then I don't have an Ology, so what would I know...

 

[skinnydipper]

Guide dogs in training do get two small meals a day from a bowl. The rest of their daily allow allowance is used during the day for training. They also do have frozen kongs, licky mats and snuffle mats.

So if the food allowance is used for meals and training and the dogs are gaining weight wouldn't it make sense to reduce the food allowance?

 

[Sandstone1]

So if the food allowance is used for meals and training and the dogs are gaining weight wouldn't it make sense to reduce the food allowance?

Dogs in training have a very close eye kept on their weight and food allowance. Food is adjusted as needed. I did not say that dogs are gaining weight. Problems do happen when guide dog owners give extra treats.

 

[skinnydipper]

Dogs in training have a very close eye kept on their weight and food allowance. Food is adjusted as needed. I did not say that dogs are gaining weight. Problems do happen when guide dog owners give extra treats.

Apologies, Sandstone.

So the problem is just that the dogs are too focused on food?

 

[Sandstone1]

Apologies, Sandstone.

So the problem is just that the dogs are too focused on food?

They are very focused on food now. There are good parts of the new training method but there are very big problems caused by over use of food. These are working dogs with a huge responsibility for a human life. There is a lot at risk if they get things wrong.

 

[Sandstone1]

I am going to leave this now as its a massive subject.

 

[P3LH]

deleted - as differing views aren’t welcome here.

 

[P3LH]

Guide dogs in training do get two small meals a day from a bowl. The rest of their daily allow allowance is used during the day for training. They also do have frozen kongs, licky mats and snuffle mats.
They do have a specialised breeding and training programme but unfortunately partly due to covid but mainly due to taking positive reward based training to the extreme which in pet dogs would be fine but for working guide dogs is really not working and has made waiting lists much longer than normal.
Guide dogs has lost its way with training. This is due in the main to decisions made at the top by people who hardly ever touch a dog.

A friends father has worked alongside them for years - certainly all of my life. He left two years ago for this exact reason. It’s a pity as it is such a wonderful and invaluable service/organisation. He felt the dogs being produced today (well 2 years ago) were not stable enough or of the calibre to cope with the vocation.

 

[skinnydipper]

Deleted.

 

[Teaselmeg]

Were the people giving the seminars promoting a particular training system/their own system/their work/publications/books/businesses, just out of interest?

I would disagree that a pet dog eating some food off the floor over a relatively small surface area in its own back garden or taking two or three handfuls of kibble rather than out of a bowl is in some way damaging. That's not 'work', it's just eating from a different surface/in a different way, but then I don't have an Ology, so what would I know...

I'm wondering if when you go to a Doctor or Dentist you also don't trust them because they they have chosen to have some science based qualifications ? The seminars I attend are by world renowned behaviourists and veterinary behaviourists, who also deal directly with difficult dogs. No agenda, just want dogs to be treated and trained in a fair way, that they can understand. Instead of scoffing at anything I write, maybe you should try attending seminars and seeing what has been learned over the last 20 + years.

 

[stangs]

Umm yes it can be. Nothing magical about a bowl, just that you are satisfying their basic need for food, before asking them to 'work' for the rest of it. I'm not making this up, it's featured/ mentioned in several behaviour seminars I've attended.

Scatter feeding isn't 'working' for their food; it's an attempt at recreating the behaviours they needed as scavengers. That's like saying that zoos shouldn't hang up carcasses or throw them into water because it's tricky for the tigers to retrieve.

All predators need to work to secure a meal. Not working for food all the time just means that they should be able to receive food through their own choice of behaviour, rather than only receiving it in exchange for an unrelated/abstract behaviour.

Guide dogs in training do get two small meals a day from a bowl. The rest of their daily allow allowance is used during the day for training. They also do have frozen kongs, licky mats and snuffle mats.

Interesting. I would have thought that if they were so keen to use evidence-based practices they'd be sticking to 1 meal a day.

 

[skinnydipper]

Interesting. I would have thought that if they were so keen to use evidence-based practices they'd be sticking to 1 meal a day.

Wouldn't this depend on the size of the dog?

 

[CorvusCorax]

I'm wondering if when you go to a Doctor or Dentist you also don't trust them because they they have chosen to have some science based qualifications ? The seminars I attend are by world renowned behaviourists and veterinary behaviourists, who also deal directly with difficult dogs. No agenda, just want dogs to be treated and trained in a fair way, that they can understand. Instead of scoffing at anything I write, maybe you should try attending seminars and seeing what has been learned over the last 20 + years.

I have attended plenty of seminars and practical training events over the years, thanks and have experience of less than good doctors and dentists too, as I am sure a lot of people have. Learning the science is great, it's how it's applied.

 

[stangs]

Wouldn't this depend on the size of the dog?

Excluding puppies, and some toy breed lines with hypoglycaemia, why would it? I appreciate the bloat concerns with bigger dogs, but the health benefits seem to be uniform across breeds [x].