Gut Issues (long read)

[woodyjessie11]

Hi all! Yet another gut health question (or should I say cry for help)…

I had suspicions of an unhappy gut in my young horse earlier on in the summer, based on general behaviour and some immune niggles he had - rain scald/mud fever/very easily sunburned etc, all at a time when none of my other horses had issues. He was also eating a lot of soil, and a lot of tree bark. Always turned out in fields with a good variety of grasses and hedges on at least 2/3 sides - and I always saw him eating at the hedges / trees.

At this point he was fed the FP hoof and skin balancer, speedi beet, salt, micronised linseed etc, so should have had ample base minerals etc. I suppose my theory was that his gut health was limiting the efficacy of the balancers etc.

So I had an equibiome test done, which came back with the following main ‘issues’:

• Blautia, very low
• Fibrobacteres, low
• Paludibacter, extremely low
• Clostridium, extremely high
• Bacteriodes, very high
• Methylacidaphilum, non existent
• Pediococcus, extremely low
• Gut wall renewal - all red/orange
• Gut wall integrity - all red/orange

To add, no antibiotics etc given for at least 10 months prior to the test being done.

I followed the recommended equibiome feeding regime inc oily herbs and swapped from the biome 7 (I think, regular one) to forageplus gut plus after a few months. I should add I noticed no improvement to his behaviours during this time.

Had been seen by a vet for unrelated issues, no lameness etc. Seen by physio regularly (spoilt baby) - no tightness / pain there either. Seen by dentist, no real issues, had them rasped and wolf teeth removed. I decided to leave everything alone for a few months to see if I get an improvement, following the same feed/balancer plus the oily herbs.

Come the autumn I want to start doing some work, but he’s still a bit unexplainably grumpy, so I decided to get a full blood panel done just to tick off his general health.

Bloods came back apparently all great, except for a ‘gut marker’ (waiting for clarification) which apparently is showing as an issue….
This week I sent off for a worm count with westgate, and it came back as <50 (basically no worms/no treatment required), although I am waiting for tapeworm results.

I’ve done a fair bit of research into feeding / mineral / vitamin balance and make sure I keep everything low sugar/starch etc. His feed is as follows, split into 2 (morning and evening):

A VERY wet soup of speedi-beet

• FP Winter Young Horse Balancer
• FP Micronised Linseed (omega 3 dose, but balancer also contains some)
• FP Mycosorb
• FP Yea-Sacc
• Hedgerow herbs (oily herbs)
• Aloe Vera 100ml
• Salt & free access to salt lick

Currently in during the night and out during the day on a dry lot (due to the incessant rain and therefore mud!!!) with ad-lib Hay, cut from our own land which is a really good variety meadow grass, not overly fertilised etc.

I can’t see why he would still be having gut issues, unless there is something else underlying going on.
I’ve had him over a year and he has been in the same routine, which is as stress free as I can get.

Is there anything anyone can think of, that would help?

I don’t want him to start doing any real work or the backing process until I’m confident he’s feeling happy in himself. He will be with me for life. I just want him to be happy!

 

[ycbm]

I would consider the possibility of an allergy, which might be to grass itself.

Has he had any periods where he had no grass at all? I think it would be worth a try and then if that does nothing, and exclusion diet with everything else you feed him. Mine can't eat linseed, for example and legumes make him into a photosensitive headshaker with inflamed red eyelids.
.

 

[woodyjessie11]

I would consider the possibility of an allergy, which might be to grass itself.

Has he had any periods where he had no grass at all? I think it would be worth a try and then if that does nothing, and exclusion diet with everything else you feed him. Mine can't eat linseed, for example and legumes make him into a photosensitive headshaker with inflamed red eyelids.
.

Could well be.
I wouldn’t know where to start RE having him on no grass at all? what do you replace all the hay with etc? He eats *like a horse* lol!
The problem is he doesn’t have any significant signs, no hives etc, so I’m not sure how easy it’s going to be to truly rule things out.
Are there any tests that can be done?

 

[ycbm]

Leahurst can, I believe, test for grass allergies as I know one which was diagnosed there as intolerant of ryegrass die to similar issues to yours. I expect other hospitals can do it to.

If i had to do it I think I'd try taking him off grazing and feeding only branded Timothy haylage, then swapping to ryegrass only haylage if the timothy made no difference. From anecdote, ryegrass is the commonest one they are allergic to.

A pain in the neck to do, but you sound at your wits end and you've tried anything else I would suggest, like herbs, yeasacc and aloe.
.

 

[woodyjessie11]

Leahurst can, I believe, test for grass allergies as I know one which was diagnosed there as intolerant of ryegrass die to similar issues to yours. I expect other hospitals can do it to.

If i had to do it I think I'd try taking him off grazing and feeding only branded Timothy haylage, then swapping to ryegrass only haylage if the timothy made no difference. From anecdote, ryegrass is the commonest one they are allergic to.

A pain in the neck to do, but you sound at your wits end and you've tried anything else I would suggest, like herbs, yeasacc and aloe.
.

I could try that. Any idea how long I should try for?

You’re right it is a pain, I have 30 large round bales sitting in the shed of my own beautiful cut hay and I’ve never had any issues before! I think I’ve bought a right princess. Highly bred Dutch warm blood, I should add…

edited to add - if he was allergic and currently suffering, wouldn’t it be likely that other bloods may be raised, eg liver / kidney etc etc? Had a full panel done so in theory something else *should* have showed up?
happy to share bloods in PM to anyone who understands them!

 

[Barton Bounty]

I agree with ycbm definitely take off the grass for a short period and the improvement if any should be quite quick.

 

[woodyjessie11]

I agree with ycbm definitely take off the grass for a short period and the improvement if any should be quite quick.

He’s not on grass, only hay? Hasn’t been on grass now for about 3 weeks, hay only (as in post, dry lot turnout with hay)

 

[Barton Bounty]

He’s not on grass, only hay? Hasn’t been on grass now for about 3 weeks, hay only (as in post, dry lot turnout with hay)

Thats my dodgy eyes musta missed that bit, sorry!
I have a horse that I really have to watch what goes in!
it was a process of elimination to start with to try and narrow it down. I finally won by finding out it was soya and alfalfa.

 

[shortstuff99]

Could scope for ulcers and or look into PSSM?

 

[woodyjessie11]

Could scope for ulcers and or look into PSSM?

Doesn’t have ulcer signs and I’m not a fan of the scoping process, caused a LOT of stress to one of the others. Feeding 100ml aloe anyway. However I did do a test of gastroguard for 5 days, with no noticeable difference to him. I know that wouldn’t have healed ulcers if he had any, but should have been long enough to notice a difference in behaviour.
Has absolutely no pssm2 symptoms, and nothing to suggest so on the bloods and has been tested negative for pssm1 (for peace of mind). But worth considering!

Thats my dodgy eyes musta missed that bit, sorry!
I have a horse that I really have to watch what goes in!
it was a process of elimination to start with to try and narrow it down. I finally won by finding out it was soya and alfalfa.

I’m sure I’ve checked the ingredients on everything and I’m completely clear of both Alfalfa and Soya - I made sure to remove these ages ago as I’d read they’re super common to have issues with!

 

[Barton Bounty]

Doesn’t have ulcer signs and I’m not a fan of the scoping process, caused a LOT of stress to one of the others. Feeding 100ml aloe anyway. However I did do a test of gastroguard for 5 days, with no noticeable difference to him. I know that wouldn’t have healed ulcers if he had any, but should have been long enough to notice a difference in behaviour.
Has absolutely no pssm2 symptoms, and nothing to suggest so on the bloods and has been tested negative for pssm1 (for peace of mind). But worth considering!




I’m sure I’ve checked the ingredients on everything and I’m completely clear of both Alfalfa and Soya - I made sure to remove these ages ago as I’d read they’re super common to have issues with!

God! I feel for you, nightmare. Just a thought have you tried activated charcoal? I use that occasionally for tummy

 

[woodyjessie11]

God! I feel for you, nightmare. Just a thought have you tried activated charcoal? I use that occasionally for tummy

No, I haven’t!
I have had him on slippery elm along with my other thought for about 3 weeks, forgot to mention that!! Also just started the Mycosorb for mopping up any toxins so I’m not sure if the charcoal is necessary alongside it - I’ll check it out though thanks!

 

[woodyjessie11]

Also, just had tapeworm back, also completely clear for all horses! So worms are now completely out of the equation.

 

[shortstuff99]

Has he always been a bit grumpy or is it a new thing? Is that maybe just his personality?

 

[woodyjessie11]

Has he always been a bit grumpy or is it a new thing? Is that maybe just his personality?

He got worse last winter and stayed like it. It’s not just grumpy he can be aggressive. You’re right; it could just be his his personality. However his bloods are still a little off in places and his equibiome was off too.

At this point, I know he is healthy in 99% of all aspects so I’m inclined to leave everything alone and just see how he responds.

 

[Highmileagecob]

The clostridium would worry me.....make sure your hygiene routine is beyond reproach and be very careful coming into contact with elderly people or young children/babies if you haven't managed to change clothes after visiting and handling him.
Has your vet offered any support or further testing to check he is now clear?

 

[woodyjessie11]

The clostridium would worry me.....make sure your hygiene routine is beyond reproach and be very careful coming into contact with elderly people or young children/babies if you haven't managed to change clothes after visiting and handling him.
Has your vet offered any support or further testing to check he is now clear?

I showed the vets the test results as soon as I had them in the summer, but they didn’t say anything about them at all. Perhaps as it’s not a ‘vet’ thing.

However I said to the vet who took the bloods last week to also please have a look at the report as he had mentioned the gut. But heard nothing back. Suggested only to worm just in case, but of course I went down the testing route rather than worming willy nilly.

I will go back to them tomorrow to let them know about the worms anyway.

There was nothing else to suggest infection/inflammation.

I know how important gut health is, for all over health, hence why I’m just hoping to sort it!

 

[Barton Bounty]

Where does your water come from? Would it be worth trying some from somewhere different.

 

[woodyjessie11]

Where does your water come from? Would it be worth trying some from somewhere different.

Water is from my house (outside tap), as the stables are only a few meters away. I’d like to think that is pretty safe as I drink litres of the stuff every day!

 

[Barton Bounty]

Water is from my house (outside tap), as the stables are only a few meters away. I’d like to think that is pretty safe as I drink litres of the stuff every day!

Thats that ruled out ?

 

[cauda equina]

If there's an allergy present he's likely to have a raised eosinophil (a type of white blood cell) count

Maybe try a course of RiteTrac as it's designed to deal with both fore and hind gut problems?

 

[woodyjessie11]

If there's an allergy present he's likely to have a raised eosinophil (a type of white blood cell) count

Maybe try a course of RiteTrac as it's designed to deal with both fore and hind gut problems?

Yes nothing raised there.

I bought Equishure (cry it’s so expensive) as a trial for him and used 1.8kg on the highest dose, didn’t notice any difference. Will look into RiteTrac too!

I wish equibiome re-tests were reduced cost. I would love to try again now to see if there has been a shift.

 

[SEL]

I would probably worm tbh - FEC are dependent on the horse actually shedding worms when the sample is taken. I had a similar blood test and the vet asked if she'd been wormed. She had and latest FEC was negligible but I did a 5 day panacur for peace of mind (& a different drug) and saw improvement in her behaviour.

The other thing I fed her was l-glutamine. There was drama about it on Dr Marlins page because technically it isn't approved for use on horses, but it's known for improving the strength of the gut wall. She was on it for ages - I just kept chucking a scoop in x 2 day - and I'm convinced it helped.

I should retest her with equibiome at some point but ££££

 

[woodyjessie11]

I would probably worm tbh - FEC are dependent on the horse actually shedding worms when the sample is taken. I had a similar blood test and the vet asked if she'd been wormed. She had and latest FEC was negligible but I did a 5 day panacur for peace of mind (& a different drug) and saw improvement in her behaviour.

The other thing I fed her was l-glutamine. There was drama about it on Dr Marlins page because technically it isn't approved for use on horses, but it's known for improving the strength of the gut wall. She was on it for ages - I just kept chucking a scoop in x 2 day - and I'm convinced it helped.

I should retest her with equibiome at some point but ££££

I will worm for encysted redworm once we start getting some consistent cold weather, but not yet as it’s still too mild and wet.

That’s interesting I’ll have a look into that too, thanks.

 

[tyner]

What is his stress level like? Your situation sounded similar to me..
I was at wits end this summer with my young horse, despite a seemingly perfect diet, routine and care. But experiencing similar results on the Equibiome test (but slightly worse, but not horrible bloods). I was looking for a dietary solution and coming up empty. Tried expensive Succeed trial and everything that's suggested from Equibiome but still grumpy and I just didn't feel he was ready to get to work. Cue dentist, bodyworker, worming (low/no burden in our results also), nothing stood out.
What changed -- removing his next door neighbor (who was not aggressive but apparently caused a lot of perceived insecurity by just being nearby) from the barn. And more turnout. Field is trashed and a right mess but it's made a world of difference staying out. Even the mud fevers gone away. Despite being covered in mud daily now. He was always quiet and seemingly happy in the stable I didn't think it was a problem. But it's like a different horse.

 

[PurBee]

A few things stand out. Definitely agree with sel that encysted redworms are a likely culprit for gut wall damage and then gut nasty pathogens to take hold as per your biome report.

Has he had encysted redworm treatment since this behaviour began?

Also, tyner makes a good point about assessing environment - is there a herd member keeping him off hay in field, or another horse bothering him, or when he’s in the stable, can he see any other horse, is he lonely? Subtle stuff may be cause of radical behaviour.

When my boy was younger i had to separate him from the other mare who dominated hay feed. To see them eating youd think there wasnt an issue, as she never visually told him to get off the hay, or made faces at him. I observed them closely for ages. But his natural eating style was slow and relaxed - he’s take 2.5hrs hours to eat 3 kilo’s….he’d love to just nibble and mouth the haynet. Her style was yank and gobble. But sharing a huge net together she ate fast, and he was forced to speed up to get ‘his share’.

It was mortifying to realise this as it meant i had to then have 5 hay feed times separated, and the rest of the time they could be together chilling/snoozing/grooming each other, or out grazing, rather than true ad-lib, with the mare being a whale and him a skinny rake, and me throwing 30kg’s at them daily and him still hungry and stressed.
Around this time he was kinda bolshy, grumpy, skitty, but sweet too, he’d mouth odd things, showing signs of stress mainly.
Thankfully they equalised as they both got older, and eat together without him being stressed, so my routine with them is far less stressful.

Regarding diet - you’re giving him lots, and i see your logic in your choices, but a few things crop up:

Aloe vera and slippery elm are both great for coating the guts - protecting a raw/sore gut lining and helping it heal. However, the downside to using any mucilagenous type herbs is that they are so good at coating the gut, it’s likely that anything else nutritionally you’re adding to the feed bowl with them in, will not be absorbed as well as just pass through. That’s not to say they’re not absorbing at all. Depends on dose of the gut lining ingredients. Slippery elm is seriously slimy in water and glue’s easily, with aloe vera being less-so.

I would cut these out and use l-glutamine for gut repair as sel advised. Its proven to be excellent gut lining repair aswell as being an amino acid for immune health, muscle metabolism and repair. More useful for a you g horse bringing into fitness and work.

The FP supplements - the skin and hoof both contain linseed and salt. Then you add salt extra. As ycbm mentioned linseed/flaxseed (same thing) can cause allergy in some horses.
Nutritionally i know seeds contain what are called in the human nutrition circles “anti-nutrients” - bitter compounds, slightly toxic, to put animals and humans off from eating the seeds. Its nature’s way of ensuring that some seeds survive and germinate and arent all eaten by animals. These compounds are destroyed by heat usually, but perhaps there are some that require other treatment, like hot water boiling/blanching, and therefore some horses are allergic. Yet i would say that there likely is a gut/immune system issue as a root cause of allergies.

As a cautionary move, you could cut out the flaxseed as an experiment to gauge improvement.

Salt - how much salt (sodium chloride) is being given altogether? A lady on here who does rehab work is against using sodium chloride as she works with nutritionalists and their perspective is the corrosive effect of table salt is a potential to upset the gut. Many on here feed table salt without gut issues. So i think if a horse has a suspected/confirmed dodgy gut wall, table salt should be cut-out and other sodium forms be used for sodium intake.

Another aspect about salt in supplements - due to ots corrosive nature, ive read it degrades other vits and minerals its mixed with. Obviously this degrading effect worsens the longer the mix has been stored since mixing and packaging - but its something to consider.

Another note about your FP supplement - the hoof and skin contains magnesium. Then you switched to young horse winter, which, im astonished to read, doesnt contain ANY magnesium. (Its late and maybe my eyes deceive me but i triple read the ingredients and nutritional values and couldnt find magnesium)

https://forageplus.co.uk/product/young-horse-feed-balancer-winter/

I wanted to check these balancers to see if there could be any imbalance going on with other things youre giving and check levels.

It doesnt surprise me he’s a grump without magnesium. Unless you add magnesium to your hay fields, and know your on high mag soil with a balanced ph - then its likely your hay like most hays is disastrously low in magnesium, and he’s got a magnesium requirement, especially being a young growing horse with fast metabolism. All muscles and nerves require magnesium, its needed to supply energy ATP molecules. The calcium in hay constricts vessels/muscles/heart and magnesium relaxes.
Him being on 12g of elemental magnesium from hoof and skin, then being out on young horse winter, will have immediately cut off his only supply of magnesium. That would get a horse eating soil and bark, as trees/bushes roots mine the deeper subsoils for compacted minerals/clays which have lots of magnesium, so animals eat them more when there’s a mineral(s) need.

So, despite loving FP equine nutrition philosophies and efforts to supply great quality foods - there’s a few aspects which are undesirable in their balancers in your case, that may , unknowingly, be causing issues.
* salt, linseed, and no magnesium in your current choice.

With a horse with gut issues the 2 first ingredients should likely be cut out, for now.

You mention photosensitivity, mud fever, and rainscald - these all scream to me copper deficiency when taken as group symptoms. Again, horses will chew on bark for copper, to obtain minerals deeper in the soil where grass roots dont reach.

Copper is essential for pigment of skin and coat, so if there isnt enough tyrosinase to be made from copper, the skin won’t develop its strength against UV rays.
As youve had a full blood panel done and there’s no liver damage or stress, which is another cause of photosensitivity symptoms, it leads me to question copper.

More copper info that aligns with your symptoms:
https://madbarn.com/copper-benefits-for-horses/

Immune system and nerves myelin sheaths depend on copper - skittish horses with mud fever are likely to need copper.

Yet, youve been giving copper and zinc in FP balancers. The values are adequate, to prevent these symptoms you're seeing. So we truly have to consider a damaged gut wall not absorbing the nutrients you’re feeding, IF the rain scald, mud fever and PS still remain? Or it is just his behaviour being grumpy now with the other issues resolved?

If the other skin symptoms remain too, ditch the FP balancer for now, switch to this gut support PE balancer, without linseed, salt, but lower mag and copper than FP. But i’d add more mag. Ox. even if feeding him a 75g dose of PE. Theirs contains just 6g elemental magnesium, so addition of extra 12g of mag. Ox. Would provide anither 6g of elemental magnesium, so his total would be 12g elemental msgnesium:

https://progressive-earth.com/produ...erals-and-amino-acids-commonly-low-in-forage/

Youve been piling in nutrition to him, it seems strange he would not be absorbing it. So, aspects causing potential essential mineral deficiency symptoms or behaviour:
*damaged gut wall
*high iron in water (or hay/soil) slowly displacing copper and zinc, accumulating in body (blood panel shouldnhave picked this up if iron is cause)
*slippery elm and aloe preventing absorption being in same feed as minerals and literally ‘slipping through’ excreted without absorbing.
*parasite - encysted redworm gut wall damage/infestation (or liver fluke causing possible PS symptoms, but you’d likely see liver blood panel abnormal with this)

I dont think if youve had him on grass and hay fine for a few years, allergy to either is the root cause. If an allergy has developed to these, its likely gut damage/immune dysfunction = parasites, mineral imbalance/deficiency root cause.

The oily herbs - some herbs have powerful oils, if his system is way out of whack these may cause a stir-up.

I’d be inclined to try ultimately a stripped-down bare minimum ‘start again’ diet. sometimes the combination of many aspects can throw the body out of homeostasis, despite these additions on their own being beneficial.

Your good hay, salt block, and PE minerals Gut support as linked above.
Add l-glutamine for gut repair.
Give this 2 weeks, assess symptoms.
If still skittish slowly increase to add 12g mag oxide to bring his elemental mag to 12g. (Only 50% of mag ox is pure magnesium.)
Worm for encysted redworm.

If you have mag ox on hand, give him a small dose level desertspoon to get some mag into him, as he’s been suddenly taken off a fairly high dose with the FP balancer switch. Supplements (esp. essential minerals) want introducing low dose, getting higher, no sudden stops or starts of high doses. They can exhibit symptoms of extreme deficiency because their system gets used to using the dose. It’s like a rebound effect. Taper up and taper down, allowing the body to adjust and maintain homeostasis alongside the tapering days.

Hopefully ive given some ideas to think about and try. Its very difficult in your position as youre understandably exploring all angles, and sometimes we can miss just 1 or 2 minor things, that could cause our treatment plan to be ineffective.

 

[woodyjessie11]

Hopefully ive given some ideas to think about and try. Its very difficult in your position as youre understandably exploring all angles, and sometimes we can miss just 1 or 2 minor things, that could cause our treatment plan to be ineffective.

I really appreciate your thorough reply! Very helpful.

Starting with the stress aspect - he lives with 1 other horse, a very submissive older gelding. The young one is a very dominant type and will try to chase the other off any hay when turned out so I separate the bins a good few m’s to avoid any issues. So he’s not getting bullied, he is the bully.
He is then in the stable overnight which is directly opposite his ‘brother’ so they can see each other at all times, and there are no other horses in to cause him any issues.
It would seem he very much enjoys being in the stable - if it’s raining etc he waits by the gate to come in to a nice warm bed… he must feel chilled as he lays down every day at least once, usually caught having an afternoon nap if they’re in at that time because of weather (eg today we have yellow warnings so I doubt they’ll be out long)


On the topic of encysted redworm, he was wormed in June with Eqvalan Duo (although I don’t think this would cover encysted)? Hopefully we get a cold snap soon and I can treat for it.


Agreed about the gut supplements, I’m happy to try l-glutamine - can you suggest what dosage / where to get it from please?

Salt - I only supplement an extra 10g or else he goes mad on the salt lick / the balancer contains 15g of salt and so I just meet the 25g of recommended amount.

In term of copper issues - I haven’t noticed any copper ish tints to his mane/tail this summer so I’m inclined to say his copper levels have improved.

And then the magnesium - I’ve titled the balancer wrong in the forum post, he’s actually given the more comprehensive ‘working young horse winter balancer’ which contains 4g mag ox. But I have a load here I can supplement with. I should add however there has been no change to his behaviour since I switched anyway. But definitely worth highlighting!

The bloods only really pointed out a few things, low potassium and low t-bilirubin.

I think first things first I’ll treat for encysted redworm and make the few small changes to his diet inc l-glutamine.

If I see no improvement after a good few weeks, I’ll strip back to absolute basics and start again!

 

[Ellibelli]

Doesn’t have ulcer signs and I’m not a fan of the scoping process, caused a LOT of stress to one of the others. Feeding 100ml aloe anyway. However I did do a test of gastroguard for 5 days, with no noticeable difference to him. I know that wouldn’t have healed ulcers if he had any, but should have been long enough to notice a difference in behaviour.
Has absolutely no pssm2 symptoms, and nothing to suggest so on the bloods and has been tested negative for pssm1 (for peace of mind). But worth considering!




I’m sure I’ve checked the ingredients on everything and I’m completely clear of both Alfalfa and Soya - I made sure to remove these ages ago as I’d read they’re super common to have issues with!

But being grumpy is a sign of ulcers and it took two weeks of Gastrogard for my horse to show any noticeable improvement and I've never had any positive results from aloe vera? I also had to treat with sucralfate as mine had both glandular and non-glandular ulcers and the Gastrogard alone wouldn't have healed them both

 

[woodyjessie11]

But being grumpy is a sign of ulcers and it took two weeks of Gastrogard for my horse to show any noticeable improvement and I've never had any positive results from aloe vera? I also had to treat with sucralfate as mine had both glandular and non-glandular ulcers and the Gastrogard alone wouldn't have healed them both

But being grumpy alone is not really enough to push me towards scoping in a horse with a lifestyle that does not present an ulcer risk in either feeding/living habits nor workload (not ridden nor worked other than groundwork in hand). Recent vets didn’t see any reason/signs for it to be ulcer related either.

IMO the scoping process probably causes ulcers… the withholding food overnight would cause him so much distress that he would definitely give himself ulcers! And then throw in the travelling of a young horse on an empty stomach on top of that…

Not something I will pursue until I’ve ruled everything else out.

 

[PurBee]

I really appreciate your thorough reply! Very helpful.

Starting with the stress aspect - he lives with 1 other horse, a very submissive older gelding. The young one is a very dominant type and will try to chase the other off any hay when turned out so I separate the bins a good few m’s to avoid any issues. So he’s not getting bullied, he is the bully.
He is then in the stable overnight which is directly opposite his ‘brother’ so they can see each other at all times, and there are no other horses in to cause him any issues.
It would seem he very much enjoys being in the stable - if it’s raining etc he waits by the gate to come in to a nice warm bed… he must feel chilled as he lays down every day at least once, usually caught having an afternoon nap if they’re in at that time because of weather (eg today we have yellow warnings so I doubt they’ll be out long)


On the topic of encysted redworm, he was wormed in June with Eqvalan Duo (although I don’t think this would cover encysted)? Hopefully we get a cold snap soon and I can treat for it.


Agreed about the gut supplements, I’m happy to try l-glutamine - can you suggest what dosage / where to get it from please?

Salt - I only supplement an extra 10g or else he goes mad on the salt lick / the balancer contains 15g of salt and so I just meet the 25g of recommended amount.

In term of copper issues - I haven’t noticed any copper ish tints to his mane/tail this summer so I’m inclined to say his copper levels have improved.

And then the magnesium - I’ve titled the balancer wrong in the forum post, he’s actually given the more comprehensive ‘working young horse winter balancer’ which contains 4g mag ox. But I have a load here I can supplement with. I should add however there has been no change to his behaviour since I switched anyway. But definitely worth highlighting!

The bloods only really pointed out a few things, low potassium and low t-bilirubin.

I think first things first I’ll treat for encysted redworm and make the few small changes to his diet inc l-glutamine.

If I see no improvement after a good few weeks, I’ll strip back to absolute basics and start again!

The additional info helps, very useful.?

Eqvalan duo is prazi with ivermermectin - that does most things but not encysted red worm, only the latter stages of the worm development.
Only moxidectin and fembendazole are proven to kill encysted larvae in the gut wall of small redworms.
That equest single dose moxidectin or panacur 5 day course fembendazole.

https://thehorsesback.com/encysted-small-strongyles/

I’ve missed your horses age if you said in the thread…but if youve only had him a year and you dont know worming history, to go after the gut wall baddies of encysted redworm is a good idea, to know its been done. These dont lay eggs at that stage so theres no FEC that can determine if encysted exist or not.
When they grow, they puncture through the gut wall damaging it, take up space in the gut wall hindering nutrient absorption too, so we likely see gut disturbance symptoms, girthiness, etc with the encysted worm type.

I agree with Sel who mentioned FEC are a rough guide but we must account for the possibility that worms arent laying their eggs 24/7/365, so not every poop produced necessarily will show worm eggs.
I havent yet seen a study, or done it myself to collect and test poop every day for 30 days to see if parasites have a ‘rhythm’ to their activities.
Old almanacs stated openly that parasites are more active and lay eggs around full and new moon times, as neurotransmitters produced in the body at that time are also altered, which parasites thrive off too, giving som credence to the theory. I havent tested it, or found such a study about parasite egg-laying frequencies.
I can see how a very troublesome infestation would likely produce eggs in every poop as there’s so many parasites competing for space/nutrients so are stressed themselves. But medium to low infestation of them, may well follow a routine of feeding and egg production we are not yet aware of.
Everything else in nature produces eggs/seeds at specific stages in a cycle, so it stands to reason worms have egg shedding cycles too, rather than continuously daily.

The low potassium is interesting. That can cause skitty behaviour as cal/mag/pot have a balanced ratio. You said you dont overly fertilise your fields.
Many bought in commercial made hay either gets NPK treatment in the spring or a farmer spreads manure, giving NPK, usually bringing calcium and potassium levels high enough.
Usually bought in hay has adequate potassium. But if you dont fertilise your fields, grazing or hay, there likely could be, over time, a potassium deficiency.
You can get your hay tested to know the exact levels, and then add whatever minerals needed to bring these macro-minerals into better balance.
Most balancer dont usually add potassium as that is usually high in hays due to NPK/fertiliser.

More info on potassium:
https://ka-hi.com/blog/animal-health/nutrient-deficiencies-horses/

“Potassium is a crucial mineral. It plays a significant role in maintaining your horse’s acid and base balance, as well as in muscle and nerve functions and cellular osmotic pressure, which is a process that helps cells remain hydrated.

When your horse doesn’t have enough potassium, you may see these symptoms:

• Fatigue
• Restlessness
• Decreased eating and drinking
• Spookiness”

Electrolyte powders usually will have decent potassium levels in so in the meantime while awaiting hay test, you could consider a dose of them to get more potassium into him.

L-glutamine doses for humans is around 1g/1000mg per day - so x10 for a horse would be a dose to build up to adequate to do something, considering the size of their gut. Sports nutrition online stores likely sell l-glutamine as a powder in bulk packs. Equine supplement shops likely charge loads for it, but human body-building industry may well be cheaper. Google for 500g or 1kg packs.
Maybe pm Sel, where she got hers from. I’ve only ever bought it for humans not bulk for horses.

Regarding the salt, i understand your 25g to get the RDA, and ive personally never found issues adding it - but thought worth a mention about its corrosive nature, for a horse with potential gut wall inflammation/raw/soreness.

He’s a growing warmblood, presumably to reach a large size, so nutritionally, compared to a small welshie, would require more.

If we consider how much variance in food stuff horses would have available to them if roaming wild, compared to being in a limited space field with same food stuff, it stands to reason why we need to carefully manage the fields and their diet, to ensure in the very least, the macro-minerals are balanced.


I wonder about his companion mate. Whether its not stimulating enough for him? It reminds me of a teenager having his grandad as his companion, who just wants to sit quietly by the fire with a cuppa, while the teen has loads of energy and wants to frolic! The teen having no-one of equal energy to play with would be bored with grandad. Especially as you say he’s the bully, suggesting he wants older mate to frolic.
My gelding was a bit of a cheeky git years ago with the 10yr old mare, but she was sassy enough to give as good as she got, so provided that tit-for-tat play time, running together, grooming together.
Im suggesting you get another horse - woohoo! ? LOL - or if not practical, are there any other younger horses he could play with (safely)?
Obviously your groundwork sessions provide stimulation. Are you able to add other stimulation aids like treat balls, swedes in a hay net, that are a challenge to get at, a mirror, play ball etc?

I like your plan to go after the potential encysted first, glutamine gut repair focus, then assess.