GWH Pointer x Lab wanted please!

Must get back to my work now, but just an idle google found this:

Question
I hope you can help me . I’m female and I am currently in a relationship with my cousin (who is my dad’s brother's son) – and we are planning to get married.

The problem is my mum and dad are also cousins on the same side of the family. We are worried that when it comes to having children there will be problems.

Can you help, as I don’t know where else to turn?

Answer
I am quite amazed by your email. But I take it that you are genuinely serious about this relationship. You see, if your mum and dad are cousins - as well as you and your boyfriend - I'm afraid that the amount of inbreeding that is involved here is breathtaking.

I've just made myself a little sketch of your very complex family tree, and it's clear that you and your boyfriend share two grandparents and four great-grandparents. And you yourself have only got SIX great-grandparents - instead of the usual eight.

Such a marriage would be legal, but I'm afraid that the chance of having abnormal babies would be high.


Read more: http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/ate/sexandrelationships/familyproblems/200403.html#ixzz2Tvbid54l
Follow us: @NetDoctor on Twitter | NetDoctorUK on Facebook

The doctor's answer says it all!!
 
Well you see, I am informed by what I actually look at in front of my own eyes, like lots of dogs (working away, with no problems), lots of paper pedigrees (not one, that's 30 years old), lots of online pedigrees, talking to lots of people, reading lots of books, what I see at dog shows or out on the training field and in competition (I really don't see very many of these 'majority of GSDs with roached backs and fallen haunches - they wouldn't really be very useful for police, security work or competition) not relying on TV programmes, one neighbours' dog, or hearsay.

You know that the Germanic/progressive GSD community in the UK were the ones who started the hip scoring scheme off their own bat for the betterment of the breed, right?
Nasty nasty pedigree dog breeders...
 
Nikki J said:
Absolutely agree, which is sad and tragic. But this has been going on in the pedigree world for almost a century, with no-one turning a hair ... until THAT PROGRAMME!!

In and interbreeding can only ever be bad - to my mind, there can NEVER be any justification to mating father with daughter, mother to son, sister to brother, and yet it goes on the whole time in virtually every breed. Or is it starting to wane now, I do hope so.
Click to expand...

Interbreeding is what you are asking for - it means crossbreeding!
In breeding is the name given to mating of close relatives and such matings are not allowed by the kennel club.

It is quite nornal to have one name of both sides of a pedigree as long as they are grandparents or further back as long as the common name is outstanding and healthy it can be a good thing. Inbreeding co-efficients don't take quality or multiple duplications into account so are a tool and not an absolute guide. All too often inbreeding is done not for selection but for convenience or to save money or travel.

That programme was challenged and proved inaccurate in court but perhaps you might like to contact the producer -she supports a "rescue" that ships in black labrador crosses from pounds in Ireland. As if we didn't have enough dogs PTS daily in UK pounds.
 
It is very easy to find a GSP that is not inbred. My one isn't for starters! I looked at the coefficient tool on KC website ages ago (when it first came out) and it was very low (can't remember what it was now) and well below the published "safe" percentage.

There are so many tools you can use now when researching a potential pup to make sure it is not inbred and from health tested parents. Just a couple of clicks of a button.

There is a drive to make people do the research and for breeders to do things responsibly. I personally so not see WHY someone with a German Pointer would cross breed it (I would say the same for Labs, but I know this is a breed that has been crossed a lot - sadly - IMO). I do not see the purpose/function. It can't even be for money as the price of the X pups linked on this page are about a 1/4 of what a German Pointer would go for! So can only imagine it's a mistake that wasn't dealt with.....
 
CaveCanem said:
Both these statements are bunkum, sorry. I look at a good deal of pedigrees :)
And it is legal to marry your first cousin in the UK if you so wish.
Even the Royal Family do it....

But don't let the fact get in the way of a good rant :)
Click to expand...

Pmsl!

The amount of people swayed by that ridiculous sensationalist programme is astonishing!

The only way to guarantee healthy dogs is to health test the parents and to not breed randomly or to breed indiscriminately. Mongrels are NOT necessarily healthier than pedigrees. Hybrid vigour, I'm afraid, is just a myth.
 
I get soooo confused by all this cross breeding discussion.

All breeds are a result of cross breeding at some point. And whilst I agree we shouldn't be looking for the arbitrary breeding of just any old dog just for the sake of it. Is it really such a 'no' 'no'??
 
If the parents are health tested and/or are being bred for a purpose/function other than to just make money then I have less of an issue with it. But I still have a bit of an issue with it.

There are hundreds of breeds of dogs for all purposes, there are thousands of crosses and mongrels in rescue waiting for homes, countless OOPS litters, which would make perfectly serviceable pets, I can't seem to see the point in deliberately creating more.

Well bred dogs and nice family dogs with good natures, and healthy dogs, are not mutually exclusive in my experience.
 
CaveCanem said:
If the parents are health tested and/or are being bred for a purpose/function other than to just make money then I have less of an issue with it. But I still have a bit of an issue with it.

There are hundreds of breeds of dogs for all purposes, there are thousands of crosses and mongrels in rescue waiting for homes, countless OOPS litters, which would make perfectly serviceable pets, I can't seem to see the point in deliberately creating more.

Well bred dogs and nice family dogs with good natures, and healthy dogs, are not mutually exclusive in my experience.
Click to expand...

No, I absolutely take your point on all the above.

I do think it's an interesting debate though, especially as ALL of our dogs are the result of cross breeding.
 
amymay said:
No, I absolutely take your point on all the above.

I do think it's an interesting debate though, especially as ALL of our dogs are the result of cross breeding.
Click to expand...

Not all -some are from landrace strains and some are from selection within a type.
 
Well in 1895, there was a need for a dog like, for example, a GSD and we didn't have a glut of unwanted dogs, overflowing rescues and there were no backyard breeders, or free ad sites.
 
CaveCanem said:
Well you see, I am informed by what I actually look at in front of my own eyes, like lots of dogs (working away, with no problems), lots of paper pedigrees (not one, that's 30 years old), lots of online pedigrees, talking to lots of people, reading lots of books, what I see at dog shows or out on the training field and in competition (I really don't see very many of these 'majority of GSDs with roached backs and fallen haunches - they wouldn't really be very useful for police, security work or competition) not relying on TV programmes, one neighbours' dog, or hearsay.

You know that the Germanic/progressive GSD community in the UK were the ones who started the hip scoring scheme off their own bat for the betterment of the breed, right?
Nasty nasty pedigree dog breeders...
Click to expand...

Actually, I know of many more GSDs than just our next door neighbours!! they are after all the most popular breed!! Just in our tiny tiny village alone, we have 7 - 2 of whom belong to someone who is heavily involved with a local GSD training club of some repute. His current 2, their predecessors, and their predecessors ALL were roached backed, with hip dysplasia, and did not live to double figures. With 1 exception - 25 years ago when we moved to the village, he had one entire male GSD who was magnificent, the biggest GSD I have ever seen and was at absolute darling. He was a perfect specimen, no roach, no fallen haunches, no hip dysplasia and he lived well into double figures.

I too am out and about - not so much at dog shows, although I do attend some because my daughter likes to show her chihuahuas - but just generally out and about in the countryside and meet many GSDs - round us they are the most popular of breeds, and I have to say that with the exception of the old boy I have mentioned above, none seem to have nice straight backs and all who are above the age of 5 or 6 clearly are struggling to walk.

I am not talking about police dogs, I used to work for our local police force and my office happened to overlook the training yard and kennels area. Those dogs I must admit looked far better physical specimens, however, they were all young of course.
 
s4sugar said:
Interbreeding is what you are asking for - it means crossbreeding!
In breeding is the name given to mating of close relatives and such matings are not allowed by the kennel club.

It is quite nornal to have one name of both sides of a pedigree as long as they are grandparents or further back as long as the common name is outstanding and healthy it can be a good thing. Inbreeding co-efficients don't take quality or multiple duplications into account so are a tool and not an absolute guide. All too often inbreeding is done not for selection but for convenience or to save money or travel.

That programme was challenged and proved inaccurate in court but perhaps you might like to contact the producer -she supports a "rescue" that ships in black labrador crosses from pounds in Ireland. As if we didn't have enough dogs PTS daily in UK pounds.
Click to expand...

You don't need to teach me about the english language, thanx! I've been dealing quite well with it now for nearly 60 years without too many mishaps! I am fully aware of the difference between in-breeding and inter-breeding. If in-breeding is not allowed by the KC, then they had better see the pedigrees of some of my friends' dogs. Are you sure about this?

I'm sorry, but no-one seems to be able to answer this question for me. why is it perfectly OK to inbreed dogs, but not humans? We are animals too of the mammalian species. Would you like to be the result of your father mating with your husband's grandmother, or even great-grandmother, making you and your husband pretty closely related!! It is disgusting, apart from being completely undesirable. Did you not read that posting of what the medics think of such practice?
 
Are you self-diagnosing the hip dysplasia or have you seen all the x-ray plates and score sheets?

Anyway, you sound very unlucky in your experiences with the breed but it sounds like they are all related to the same breeder if they are all from your local area (your tiny village, out and about in the countryside/in your area - your words)? What training club? PM me if you prefer. Although they can't have been that unhealthy or unsound if they were actively training in a club of some repute :)
 
Nikki J said:
. If in-breeding is not allowed by the KC, then they had better see the pedigrees of some of my friends' dogs. Are you sure about this?
Click to expand...

"Will the Kennel Club ban the mating of close relatives that have not already been banned?

The Kennel Club will not register the progeny from the mating of immediate close relatives (mother/son, father/daughter and sibling matings) as it considered that the risk to genetic diversity from these matings is too high.

It did not issue a blanket ban on the registration of progeny from the mating of second degree relatives, for example grandfather/granddaughter matings, because it fears that this could be counterproductive in some cases. Every breed and every dog must have a different breeding plan. It would be counterproductive to refuse to register a puppy produced from the mating of two entirely healthy dogs that may be second degree relatives in a breed with a very small population, as these will still produce healthy puppies. This is much more favourable than allowing the mating of two more distant relatives that have health issues. The Mate Select tool enables breeders to manage these various considerations for the overall benefit of the breed.
"

from http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/3723

Personally I think it could go further, but then as a buyer, you can just do research and choose a litter with a very low coefficient.
 
galaxy said:
It is very easy to find a GSP that is not inbred. My one isn't for starters! I looked at the coefficient tool on KC website ages ago (when it first came out) and it was very low (can't remember what it was now) and well below the published "safe" percentage.

There are so many tools you can use now when researching a potential pup to make sure it is not inbred and from health tested parents. Just a couple of clicks of a button.

There is a drive to make people do the research and for breeders to do things responsibly. I personally so not see WHY someone with a German Pointer would cross breed it (I would say the same for Labs, but I know this is a breed that has been crossed a lot - sadly - IMO). I do not see the purpose/function. It can't even be for money as the price of the X pups linked on this page are about a 1/4 of what a German Pointer would go for! So can only imagine it's a mistake that wasn't dealt with.....
Click to expand...

Glad to hear about your GSD, sounds great!! But I fail to understand, I really do, why it should be so wrong to crossbreed!! Crossbred dogs can and are health checked and can cost a lot of money. A utonagan like my boy will set you back £500. They are a wonderful breed and I know of at least 3 very ethical breeders who breed magnificent dogs.

All breeds were crossbred at one time. The wolf was the original ancestor of the dog - so all dogs are wolf crossbreeds effectively!!
 
galaxy said:
"Will the Kennel Club ban the mating of close relatives that have not already been banned?

The Kennel Club will not register the progeny from the mating of immediate close relatives (mother/son, father/daughter and sibling matings) as it considered that the risk to genetic diversity from these matings is too high.

It did not issue a blanket ban on the registration of progeny from the mating of second degree relatives, for example grandfather/granddaughter matings, because it fears that this could be counterproductive in some cases. Every breed and every dog must have a different breeding plan. It would be counterproductive to refuse to register a puppy produced from the mating of two entirely healthy dogs that may be second degree relatives in a breed with a very small population, as these will still produce healthy puppies. This is much more favourable than allowing the mating of two more distant relatives that have health issues. The Mate Select tool enables breeders to manage these various considerations for the overall benefit of the breed.
"

from http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/3723

Personally I think it could go further, but then as a buyer, you can just do research and choose a litter with a very low coefficient.
Click to expand...

Well, this is an excellent start. Hopefully grandparent/grandchild matings will be banned too. It is illegal for humans to do such matings with very good reasons. It should be no different for man's best friend.
 
Nikki J said:
Well, this is an excellent start. Hopefully grandparent/grandchild matings will be banned too. It is illegal for humans to do such matings with very good reasons. It should be no different for man's best friend.
Click to expand...

It's very unwise to do it from my experience. But then it's not just dogs.... My old horse was inbred. his great grandfather on one side was his grandfather on the other. And the result was that his private parts were deformed (I won't get graphic!) He had to undergo unecessary operations but did go on to live a happy normal life. The breeder didn't do it again though!!!!

and cats...... well I've seen they are definitely not fussy by choice!!!!! Inbred hussies ;) ;) ;)
 
Last edited:
CaveCanem said:
Are you self-diagnosing the hip dysplasia or have you seen all the x-ray plates and score sheets?

Anyway, you sound very unlucky in your experiences with the breed but it sounds like they are all related to the same breeder if they are all from your local area (your tiny village, out and about in the countryside/in your area - your words)? What training club? PM me if you prefer. Although they can't have been that unhealthy or unsound if they were actively training in a club of some repute :)
Click to expand...


Of course not!! How can you diagnose hip dysplasia looking at a dog? This is from talking to the owners - not just in our tiny village, but all over the countryside. We met a lovely couple in Norfolk on holiday with a lovely young GSD bitch who had been diagnosed with dysplasia. She was only 4 and was virtually a cripple. She had cost them a lot of money as she was supposedly from good stock. I am a very cynical old buzzard I'm afraid.

And no, I am not prepared to say the name of the training club. It is a large, well known club of some repute and the chap . They have enough to cope with having to lift their large dog in and out of the car and coping with him when his back legs give way.
 
galaxy said:
It's very unwise to do it from my experience. But then it's not just dogs.... My old horse was inbred. his great grandfather on one side was his grandfather on the other. And the result was that his private parts were deformed (I won't get graphic!) He had to undergo unecessary operations but did go on to live a happy normal life. The breeder didn't do it again though!!!!

and cats...... well I've seen they are definitely not fussy by choice!!!!! Inbred hussies ;) ;) ;)
Click to expand...


I deliberately avoided mentioning horses as well!! Don't get me started!!
 
Nikki J said:
Of course not!! How can you diagnose hip dysplasia looking at a dog? This is from talking to the owners - not just in our tiny village, but all over the countryside. We met a lovely couple in Norfolk on holiday with a lovely young GSD bitch who had been diagnosed with dysplasia. She was only 4 and was virtually a cripple. She had cost them a lot of money as she was supposedly from good stock. I am a very cynical old buzzard I'm afraid.

And no, I am not prepared to say the name of the training club. It is a large, well known club of some repute and the chap . They have enough to cope with having to lift their large dog in and out of the car and coping with him when his back legs give way.
Click to expand...

So basically every GSD you have met has hip dysplasia. Righto. You must indeed be especially unlucky, and I overly lucky then.

If it is the club I am thinking of, there are plenty of pics of dogs doing agility, maybe I am thinking of the wrong club?

Also it is common sense to lift young large breeds in and out of cars in youth to prevent wear and tear in the joints :)
 
CaveCanem said:
So basically every GSD you have met has hip dysplasia. Righto. You must indeed be especially unlucky, and I overly lucky then.

If it is the club I am thinking of, there are plenty of pics of dogs doing agility, maybe I am thinking of the wrong club?

Also it is common sense to lift young large breeds in and out of cars in youth to prevent wear and tear in the joints :)
Click to expand...


No, I did not say that. It is especially irritating when people put words into your mouth! Indeed, I went out of my way to say what an amazingly healthy GSD the GSD Dog Club man had 25 years ago when we first moved into the village.

We met 2 dogs last weekend, both GSDs, with dreadful roach backs - miles from our own area. We didn't get a chance to stop and talk, but they looked to be middle aged, about 6 possibly. roach backed, and fallen haunches, and were walking in that horrible stiff-legged way that can (please note the word can, not does!) indicate some sort of hip problem, arthritic or otherwise.

The GSD next door does not fall into the category of young, he is middle aged at around 6 or 7 - he should be perfectly capable of springing in and out of the back of the car, up and down the steps, just like my old boy who is nearly 11 and who can jump over the cross country jumps in our area with ease, catch rabbits and run like the wind - old mongrel that he is!! :D :rolleyes:

Added on as a PS:

I forgot to mention a gorgeous heavy coated white GSD bitch that we know. she had severe hip dysplasia at only the age of 2. She had some major op, hip replacement? not sure, but whatever, she was an absolute cripple at the age of only 2. She is now a completely rebuilt dog - £3,000 later!! But nonetheless, with her new hips, or whatever the vet did, she is as right as rain.

What a dreadful shame though that she had to suffer so at such a tender age. And she too was apparently very well bred and cost a fortune.

I'll stick with my mongrels any day - at least if they turn out to have some chronic health problems they haven't cost me a fortune to buy, and their insurance is dirt cheap!
 
Last edited:
CaveCanem said:
Well in 1895, there was a need for a dog like, for example, a GSD and we didn't have a glut of unwanted dogs, overflowing rescues and there were no backyard breeders, or free ad sites.
Click to expand...

Correct, and those which weren't up to the mark, were destroyed, they weren't passed on to others, for breeding. ;)

Within the modern breeding regimes of the modern breeders, I wonder what they do with their mistakes.

Alec.
 
A long coated white GSD cannot be in any way described as well bred, IME.

My 'pedigree' dogs cost me £100 apiece (one a rescue, one a rehome) and although they've both turned out to have various ailments none of them can be pinned on their breeding, they are conditions common to any dog. One has a roach back, one a back like a tabletop - guess which one recently underwent invasive orthopaedic surgery... :p
 
Nikki J said:
I forgot to mention a gorgeous heavy coated white GSD bitch that we know. she had severe hip dysplasia at only the age of 2. She had some major op, hip replacement? not sure, but whatever, she was an absolute cripple at the age of only 2. She is now a completely rebuilt dog - £3,000 later!! But nonetheless, with her new hips, or whatever the vet did, she is as right as rain.

What a dreadful shame though that she had to suffer so at such a tender age. And she too was apparently very well bred and cost a fortune.
Click to expand...

White is a colour fault and longcoats are a coat fault (I have a longcoat) according to the breed standard so not sure how you get 'very well bred'.

As you are such an opponent of inbreeding you will know that some of those who deliberately breed for off colours in the GSD such as white, blue and liver operate from a small gene pool and from lines known to produce hip dysplasia and epilepsy.
 
NikkiJ, I suspect the dogs you saw were maybe just walking rather than gaiting, which maybe can look stiff legged to the uninitiated, but as you so rightly say there is no way anyone can assume that is down to hd.
Galaxy has posted in some detail the various ways the KC are trying to improve the world of the pedigree dog (her dog is a GSP by the way not a GSD), and yet still you seem to want to rely on evidence from a tv programme that was known to be sensationalist, and views of a vet who left the RSPCA, rather suddenly, apparently to concentrate on his tv career restoring vehicles, a surprising move for someone who was so concerned about the welfare of animals in my view.

Just seen your comment about the white GSD. I would think it unlikely a white is well bred, it used to be a disqualifying colour so those who do breed them have a limited gene pool (so yes they probably are inbred) and imho they are breeding them for the wrong reasons.
 
Last edited:
CaveCanem said:
White is a colour fault and longcoats are a coat fault (I have a longcoat) according to the breed standard so not sure how you get 'very well bred'.

As you are such an opponent of inbreeding you will know that some of those who deliberately breed for off colours in the GSD such as white, blue and liver operate from a small gene pool and from lines known to produce hip dysplasia and epilepsy.
Click to expand...


The point is that the breeder sold the dog as "very well bred" ... for a very large sum of money! This is the point I am making ... that pedigrees are not necessarily the bees knees, any more than mongrels are.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top