GWH Pointer x Lab wanted please!

[Nikki J]

Only read the first 6 pages but just want to say I work in an inner city school in a very deprived area and the degree of 'inbred' students we have is astonishing! You can have two girls in the same class be aunt and niece and much much more bizarre, but as far as I'm aware none of them have three ears or only one lung (all though they may be a bit think, lol!)

Just thought i'd share that, lol!

Lol!! It's not always obvious. I cannot remember this particular genetic disease that the case I quoted suffered from, but the Neonatal Consultant was absolutely furious that this couple had gone ahead and had yet another child.

You mention being thick - the classic "Upper Class Twit" - Tim Nice But Dim - is a classic example of a particular class of society "inbreeding" - members of the aristocracy tended at least in the past to marry within the very small gene pool of aristocrats, resulting in too many "Tim Nice But Dim's".

 

[Nikki J]

Intelligence, Compassion, Love, Principles and Morality, Ethos, Belief and Faith and Charity. Ethics and the power of reason, and the list goes on.

Despite the fact that man doesn't always display the above qualities, he has the capacity to do so, and that's what separates humans from animals.

Those who state that they get on better with animals, and in some ways I'd be amongst them, are simply admitting to an inability to deal with their own kind, animals being the easiest option, as they tend not to judge us.

There-yer-go, and all that's whilst I'm sober!

Alec.

But we ARE animals. Homo Sapiens is an animal species - the same as a llama, a lion or a lima. We like to think we are the most superior species, thanks partly to the fact that as you rightly say we can display all those attributes you mention. We have the largest brains proportionally.

Our reproductive systems work in a very similar way to dogs - if it's not OK for us to mate with our brothers, sisters, mothers, fathers, grandparents, then ipso facto it is the same for dogs too.

Fascinating discussion!!

 

[Alec Swan]

But we ARE animals. .......

NO we're not, we can't be! We're mammals, I grant you, and we've basic traits which can all so often be beyond our control, in that we often act and react by instinctive displays, but the factor which separates us from animals, is that we have Intelligence, we have the IQ to allow reason. "Generally", and there may be the odd spark of reasoning in some, animals lack this one trait, and it's the trait which separates us.

How we've got to this stage, from a conversation about a GWH Pointer and a Labrador mix, I'm none too sure. Hey Ho!!

Alec.

 

[Clodagh]

I thought it was opposable thumbs (spell) that did it for us!?

 

[Nikki J]

NO we're not, we can't be! We're mammals, I grant you, and we've basic traits which can all so often be beyond our control, in that we often act and react by instinctive displays, but the factor which separates us from animals, is that we have Intelligence, we have the IQ to allow reason. "Generally", and there may be the odd spark of reasoning in some, animals lack this one trait, and it's the trait which separates us.

How we've got to this stage, from a conversation about a GWH Pointer and a Labrador mix, I'm none too sure. Hey Ho!!

Alec.

Of COURSE we are animals!! What on earth do you think we are?! Plants?!! How arrogant can you possibly be to think that we are the only species on earth to have intelligence!! You have a most extraordinary idea of life on earth if you think that!!

For once I am absolutely gobsmacked - I don't know what to say to you, I really dont!! You're winding me up - you've got to be - no-one with your obvious intelligence could possibly believe that 1) we are not an animal species and 2) we are the only intelligent species

 

[Nikki J]

LINNAEAN CLASSIFICATION OF HUMANS


Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Chordata
Subphylum: Vertebrata
Class: Mammalia
Subclass: Theria
Infraclass: Eutheria
Order: Primates
Suborder: Anthropoidea
Superfamily: Hominoidea
Family: Hominidae
Genus: Homo
Species: sapiens

Ipso facto = homo sapiens = animal (as in part of the Animal Kingdom.

 

[Alec Swan]

Most impressive, but you missed out one vital factor;

INTELLIGENCE.

Humans: Measurable.
Animals: Non existent.
__________

Alec.

 

[eatmyshorts]

Of COURSE it is relevant!! We are as a species mammals - so are dogs!! We are close enough for it to be extremely relevant!!

Close breeding is WRONG, pure and simple. Whether we be talking about humans, apes, horses, dogs, any mammalian species. Hybrid vigour is extremely important - without it, a species cannot survive.

How dare you tell me what type of dog I should have!! FYI, I have rescued several dogs in my life time, starting with a golden retriever, followed by a labrador. Then when I married for the first time, Jakey - the GSP x lab was a rescue. Lizzie, the Wittekind GSP was also a rescue, even though she was a pedigree. Then my 2 current boys are both rescues. The only rescue I have EVER had to pay for was my boy Tai, who although came free, I gave a £100 donation to the lovely lady who runs a small rescue service for Utonagans. So don't you go accusing me of lining breeders pockets - with the exception of the mal x wolf, whom I did pay for as an 8 week old puppy, ALL my rescues - both pedigree and cross - have been FREE.

So please get your facts straight before criticising others and trying to tell them what to do.

Whoa! Someone needs to take a chill pill!

I have to disagree with your first statement. I just can't see myself as even vaguely similar to, for example, a whale. Not enough to create an argument in terms of breeding ethics anyway.

Your following rant is a complete over-reaction to what i posted. Re your list of rescues, well done you, although i'm sure many of us here could boast an equally admirable list (myself included incidentally). I'm not telling you what to do, just giving my opinion (since that's what forums & discussion boards are for), but it'd be nice if the OP could find a rescue looking for a home, of the breeding she has set her heart on. Unfortunately, i'm just not sure it's a common cross. Would a GSP x lab be considered? I've seen a couple of those looking for homes. Or does it have to be a GWP x lab?

 

[eatmyshorts]

P.S In retrospect, i would just like to say, Nikki J, i do hope you are okay - i had no intention of winding you up or causing any offence, but your replies have seemed a bit OTT on occassion. Kind regards xx

 

[That old chestnut]

Only read the first 6 pages but just want to say I work in an inner city school in a very deprived area and the degree of 'inbred' students we have is astonishing! You can have two girls in the same class be aunt and niece and much much more bizarre, but as far as I'm aware none of them have three ears or only one lung (all though they may be a bit think, lol!)

Just thought i'd share that, lol!

Off topic here, but just wanted to point out that having niece and aunt in the same class doesn't point to inbreeding in any way, it just means the mother had an older child who happened to have a baby the same time she had another baby herself. I guess in some inner city schools the older child could be having another child as young as 16/17 (or God forbid younger) and an age gap of 16 years may not be that uncommon. My daughter is 15 years younger than my son (2nd marriage) although thankfully he hasn't had a child yet!

 

[PucciNPoni]

And here I thought it was our ability to create and appreciate ART which separates us humans from the rest of the animal world.

From a DNA perspective, aren't we really close to pigs or dolphins or summat? Argh - who knows - Someone does but it isnae me at this time of the morning.

Why is it illegal for humans to marry/mate close rellies? Because humans make the laws, and we say so. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Animals left to their own devices will certainly and quite readily mate with their own siblings/offspring. They don't hold the same moral code that people do.

 

[JennBags]

But the reason it's illegal in the first place has NOTHING to do with morals it's about inbreeding causing genetic defects.

Alec, for once I completely disagree with you. Just because dogs and horses don't display the same levels of intelligence that (some ) humans do, that does not mean that they won't have the same problems when inbreeding as we do.

NikkiJ, there are some unscrupulous breeders who still in-breed, however I believe the majority of reputable dealers nowadays do not do this; they're more than aware of the problems arising and don't want their dogs to get a bad name for health problems. I think you are unlucky with the GSDs that you see; I also see lots of them, and rarely see one with problems; however my mum has had 2 which have had hip dysplasia, do you know they've still been happy dogs that have led a good life!

I disagree with the new faddy cross-breeds; but then again I also disagree with anyone going out & spending a fortune on a puppy which they're not planning to show, or work, which is just going to be a pet. All they are doing is encouraging more and more breeding, which encourages more puppy farms; all the while our rescue centres are overflowing with dogs; half of which are there because their owners don't have the first idea of how to look after or handle a dog, whether it's an in-bred pedigree or a first-class mongrel

 

[Alec Swan]

.....

Alec, for once I completely disagree with you. Just because dogs and horses don't display the same levels of intelligence that (some ) humans do, that does not mean that they won't have the same problems when inbreeding as we do.

.......

That wasn't what I said! Nikki J seems convinced that humans are animals. I'm convinced that whilst both humans and animals are mammals, it's the possession of intelligence which separates us, and it's that same intelligence which allows us to realise the results of matings between brothers and sisters, for instance. We give it the label of morality, but casting labels aside, it's the results of such matings which are at the centre of our reasoning, and to reason we need what animals lack, Intelligence!

Nikki J, another distinction for you, as we are Homo Erectus we are distinct form animals in that we have the ability and advantage of walking upright!

Something else has just occurred to me, I wonder if animals can ever be diagnosed with mental ill health. Animals will, we know, readily show signs of stress and depression too, but I'm wondering about clinically measurable complaints, the flip side of our much lauded intelligence perhaps.

This is all a bit much, especially at this time in the morning, and whilst sober!

Alec.

 

[Alec Swan]

.......

....... Animals left to their own devices will certainly and quite readily mate with their own siblings/offspring. They don't hold the same moral code that people do.

That would only be so, mostly, whilst animals are in captivity. Herd or tribe living animals generally eject their (generally male) youngsters, after puberty, and herd or tribe leaders are mostly replaced on a regular basis. There does seem to be a natural order to at least assist in the prevention of incest.

Alec.

 

[Nikki J]

Most impressive, but you missed out one vital factor;

INTELLIGENCE.

Humans: Measurable.
Animals: Non existent.
__________

Alec.

Absolute RUBBISH!!
Are you denying that our distant relatives - apes - are not intelligent? Whales? Dolphins? Octopi and squid have proved to be very intelligent.

Are you sure this is not a wind up? I cannot believe I am seeing what I am reading!!

 

[Nikki J]

Whoa! Someone needs to take a chill pill!

I have to disagree with your first statement. I just can't see myself as even vaguely similar to, for example, a whale. Not enough to create an argument in terms of breeding ethics anyway.

Your following rant is a complete over-reaction to what i posted. Re your list of rescues, well done you, although i'm sure many of us here could boast an equally admirable list (myself included incidentally). I'm not telling you what to do, just giving my opinion (since that's what forums & discussion boards are for), but it'd be nice if the OP could find a rescue looking for a home, of the breeding she has set her heart on. Unfortunately, i'm just not sure it's a common cross. Would a GSP x lab be considered? I've seen a couple of those looking for homes. Or does it have to be a GWP x lab?

You ARE vaguely similar to a whale - you are a mammal!

I have already said that I had a GSP x lab - not a GWP, but I would imagine they are not too dissimilar - and the cross was an excellent one! The dog was extremely healthy, very intelligent (oops - no, it can't be, after all she's only an animal ) and lived to a ripe old age. And was an excellent retriever.

 

[eatmyshorts]

I have already said that I had a GSP x lab - not a GWP, but I would imagine they are not too dissimilar - and the cross was an excellent one! The dog was extremely healthy, very intelligent (oops - no, it can't be, after all she's only an animal ) and lived to a ripe old age. And was an excellent retriever.

I wasn't aware this thread was about you however.......?

 

[MurphysMinder]

I wasn't aware this thread was about you however.......?

I suspect the OP ran away screaming long ago.

 

[Dry Rot]

I promised myself I wouldn't contribute to the doggy threads on here as they do not do my blood pressure any good! The science of dog breeding/training must be unique in that knowledge is inversely proportional to experience and learning....

Crossing a pointing breed with a flushing breed is quite common in Ireland (or used to be) where they had (?) a more practical approach to dog ownership. Why anyone would want a working gundog (pure or crossbred) for a household pet is beyond me. I'd rather flog myself with a piece of rusty barbed wire. But, as I've said, the cross used to be quite common and the offspring are usually fairly predictable. (Which is why farmers regularly cross two breeds of sheep -- e.g. Blackface x Blue Faced Leicester = Mule which is crossed again with a meat breed to produce fat lamb -- because they know how the progeny will turn out). You have a dog that can be taught to point, range fairly close, flush, retrieve, etc. Note: I said can be trained! They call them "droppers".

Inbreeding does not cause faults. Breeding faults are caused through the poor selection of breeding stock, whether that is within a pure breed or by outcrossing. Cross a spaniel with hip displaysia with a lab with the same condition and don't be surprised if pups are similarly afflicted.

There are plenty of examples of successful inbreeding with superb individuals being produced. Google Chillingham Wild Cattle. The Paroahs of Egypt bred brother to sister for thousands of years. I bred a strain of dog here that had been closely inbred since 1825 which were superb examples. Wild populations are occasionally revived from a very small gene pool. All the rabbits in Australia are descended from a few dozen imported pairs. The difference is rigorous selection by Nature (or Man) culling the poorer individuals at each generation. Now we have the show bench, The Kennel Club, and stupidity doing the same job so every defective animal is dragged off to the vets to be "put right", then returned home to breed more rubbish!

A wise animal behaviourist once remarked that "All animals are intelligent in what concerns them". Judging by what I read, that doesn't apply to humans!

I think I'd better stop here before I get carried away. An expert will be along shortly to tell you why this is all wrong.

 

[Cinnamontoast]

All the pet hamsters in the world are descended from one pair found in the desert.

 

[AmyMay]

All the pet hamsters in the world are descended from one pair found in the desert.

And modern humans are descended from one wonderful woman from Eastern Africa. Mitochondrial Eve.

 

[Holding]

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that the problem with inbreeding is that genetic faults are more likely to be replicated and passed on to the offspring? Which is to say that it doesn't produce problems, just passes them on. So theoretically, healthy parents who are related to each other are more likely to produce healthy offspring than unrelated, unhealthy parents.

And as we're having this (hilarious) debate - it seems to me that dogs and humans both being mammals does not mean that inbreeding dogs can be equated to human incest. If for no other reason than we have incredibly complex ideas of morality influenced by thousands of years of history, while dogs... are dogs. I'm not convinced that the human aversion to incest is based on genetic arguments - would you be quite happy to sleep with your sibling as long as you didn't have children?

 

[CorvusCorax]

My old dog had to be separated from his sister when he was entire and she was in season, as do most related dogs I know.
Apart from the ones owned by lovely fluffy people who swear OH NO! He would NEVER do that!! and end up with puppies a few months later.
Don't know many families who have to divvy up the children in the same way!!!

 

[JennBags]

Holding, I'm no expert at all, but I am under the impression that inbreeding can cause genetic defects, not merely sustain them. I am prepared to be corrected though, as I really know very little about this sort of thing.

With regards to your comments re the human aversion to incest, this is merely our "culture", and I would suggest is not something that we are born with. The aversion has been actively encouraged for hundreds of years due to the problems that can arise due to inbreeding. I am sure that there are uneducated tribes somewhere in the world where sleeping with your brother/sister/father/mother is not that uncommon

 

[Holding]

I am sure that there are uneducated tribes somewhere in the world where sleeping with your brother/sister/father/mother is not that uncommon

And clearly I don't know nearly enough about incest as I should, because I thought for sure that while sleeping with your cousin was something that could be either normal or strange depending on your culture, close incest is almost a universal taboo. Aaand now I feel really sorry for the OP, who probably didn't expect her thread to end up here.

 

[s4sugar]

Inbreeding cannot cause genetic defects. This starts with a mutation - some mutations are good & some are bad.
Some are selected against and some are not. Some are even self limiting - see OLWS in horses.
Inbreeding can can bring out recessive genes or increase the probability of them expressing themselves.

A good example is the pointed gene in cats -this causes the Siamese pattern. A friend imported a cat from Australia to widen our gene pool. This cat is black with solid coloured ancestors for 12 generations. His first litter produced a pointed kitten. - you have to go back 15 generations to find a pointed cat in his pedigree although odd ones crop up as siblings five or six generations behind. Only when mated to another carrier can the gene be expressed. This gene is not a problem but similar can occur with all recessive genes which is why so much research is carried out into finding genes and markers for them.


If there are no problem genes then inbreeding cannot concentrate them.


BTW Wolves get HD. Natural selection prevents badly affected ones from breeding but their less affected siblings can reproduce hence the propensity continues.

 

[Calcyle]

Quick reply -
There is a theory that people who spend lots of time together when young, such as siblings, develop some kind of aversion that stops physical attraction between those individuals, so as to prevent inbreeding.

After some googling, I have found that name of this is the 'Westermark Effect', if anyone wants to read further.

 

[Alec Swan]

Quick reply -
There is a theory that people who spend lots of time together when young, such as siblings, develop some kind of aversion that stops physical attraction between those individuals, so as to prevent inbreeding.

.......

When we're older, it's known as marriage.

Alec.

 

[Nikki J]

That wasn't what I said! Nikki J seems convinced that humans are animals. I'm convinced that whilst both humans and animals are mammals, it's the possession of intelligence which separates us, and it's that same intelligence which allows us to realise the results of matings between brothers and sisters, for instance. We give it the label of morality, but casting labels aside, it's the results of such matings which are at the centre of our reasoning, and to reason we need what animals lack, Intelligence!

Nikki J, another distinction for you, as we are Homo Erectus we are distinct form animals in that we have the ability and advantage of walking upright!

Something else has just occurred to me, I wonder if animals can ever be diagnosed with mental ill health. Animals will, we know, readily show signs of stress and depression too, but I'm wondering about clinically measurable complaints, the flip side of our much lauded intelligence perhaps.

This is all a bit much, especially at this time in the morning, and whilst sober!

Alec.

We do indeed - but our close ape ancestors can also walk upright, just not permanently. We are the only animal that walks upright continuously.

Glad to hear that you are sober in the morning! Would hope you would be nothing but!

 

[Nikki J]

Hopefully this will put to rest the ridiculous concept that we are the only animals with intelligence: I've had to split the article because it is quite long:

Scientists unlock animal intelligence

Meet the apes - and other animals - that can memorise 10,000 pictures, use tools, recognise words, express empathy and put humans to shame at a touch-screen number game.


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A 5 1/2-year-old chimpanzee named Ayumu performs a memory test with randomly-placed consecutive Arabic numerals, which are later masked, accurately duplicating the lineup on a touch screen computer. Chimps could memorise the nine numerals much faster and more accurately than human adults. Photo: Primate Research Institute of Ky
The more we study animals, the less special we seem.

Baboons can distinguish between written words and gibberish. Monkeys seem to be able to do multiplication. Apes can delay instant gratification longer than a human child can. They plan ahead. They make war and peace. They show empathy. They share.


"It's not a question of whether they think — it's how they think," says Duke University scientist Brian Hare. Now scientists wonder if apes are capable of thinking about what other apes are thinking.

After being told a word, an orangutan points to that object on an iPad computer tablet at Jungle Island zoo in Miami. Photo: AP
The evidence that animals are more intelligent and more social than we thought seems to grow each year, especially when it comes to primates. It's an increasingly hot scientific field with the number of ape and monkey cognition studies doubling in recent years, often with better technology and neuroscience paving the way to unusual discoveries.

Says Josep Call, director of the primate research center at the Max Planck Institute in Germany: "Every year we discover things that we thought they could not do."

Dolphins, like elephants, can recognise themselves in the mirror.
Call says one of his recent more surprising studies showed that apes can set goals and follow through with them.

Orangutans and bonobos in a zoo were offered eight possible tools — two of which would help them get at some food.

At times when they chose the proper tool, researchers moved the apes to a different area before they could get the food, and then kept them waiting as much as 14 hours.

A Rhesus monkey solves addition and subtraction problems on a touch screen computer as part of a study. In nearly every case, when the apes realised they were being moved, they took their tool with them so they could use it to get food the next day, remembering that even after sleeping. The goal and series of tasks didn't leave the apes' minds.

Call says this is similar to a person packing luggage a day before a trip: "For humans it's such a central ability, it's so important."

For a few years, scientists have watched chimpanzees in zoos collect and store rocks as weapons for later use. In May, a study found they even add deception to the mix. They created haystacks to conceal their stash of stones from opponents, just like nations do with bombs.

Hare points to studies where competing chimpanzees enter an arena where one bit of food is hidden from view for only one chimp.

The chimp that can see the hidden food, quickly learns that his foe can't see it and uses that to his advantage, displaying the ability to perceive another ape's situation. That's a trait humans develop as toddlers, but something we thought other animals never got, Hare said.

Monkey memory

And then there is the amazing monkey memory.

At the National Zoo in Washington, humans who try to match their recall skills with an orangutan's are humbled. Zoo associate director Don Moore says: "I've got a Ph.D., for God's sake. You would think I could out-think an orang, and I can't."

In French research, at least two baboons kept memorising so many pictures — several thousand — that after three years researchers ran out of time before the baboons reached their limit. Researcher Joel Fagot at the French National Centre for Scientific Research figured they could memorise at least 10,000 and probably more.

And a chimp in Japan named Ayumu who sees strings of numbers flash on a screen for a split-second regularly beats humans at accurately duplicating the lineup. He's a YouTube sensation, along with orangutans in a Miami zoo that use iPads.