Had a horrendous day - Navicular and Osteoarhritis of the hock

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toomanyhorses26

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I have had a horrible day with my horses at the vets and have a million and one questions floating round in my head.

Horse number one - 16hh Irish TB mare 8 years old. Good front end but slightly odd feet (right is slightly flatter than the left ) - fairly poor hind end confo - jumpers bump and fairly straight through the hock. Purchased 2 years ago as a project(she had been purchased from a dealer for a 14 year old girl and basically scared the life out of her ) We had some massive ups and downs (ups being the bravest x country horse I have sat on and downs being the general broncing,deep leaping and bucking) but we saw the light and ended up winning at the higher end local shows,getting 65% u/a novice etc - not a world beater but a good low level all rounder. She went on loan for 6 months and when she returned it was like someone had rewound the clock and we were back at the beginning again - stiff,resistant and lacking hind end engagement. She has been back 8 weeks now and I couldnt make any progress at all so we went to the vet who has pronounced her as bi latrally lame behind :( with severe changes in both hocks. She only 8 :'( They have told me to small paddock resther with bute for the next two weeks ,to start on synquin (sp) and go from there with medicating the joint being the next step and the arthroscopy (sp) as the next step down the line. I am at a real loss as to what would be the best thing for her and it breaks my heart she has been labelled as difficult and dangerous when she was hurting. Does anyone have any expirience with this in a horse that is relatively young ?

Horse 2 - 17hh TB 12 years old - the absolute light of my life. Lighter in build than horse number one - extremely long through the neck and back, has suffered with low heels ,long toe which my farrier has worked hard on over the past three years and they look alot better from the outside ( x rays show toes to still be long for what he needs). Benn intermitterly lame for the past 8 weeks - lunged on hard surface,nerve blocked and x rayed today and has come back with subtle changes to the navicular bone and 'spikes' on the coffin joint (presume the start of arthritis ). The vets have recommended a MRI to confirm - have absolutely no previous exp of these - any advice - are they worth it ? If it is navicular - what are my options ?

I have no idea what is the best thing to do for either of these horses - they are both 'high maintenence' require alot of feed and horse number two doesnt winter/live out well. Horse one was meant to be a project to bring on and horse two is my 'actual ' horse. I am just gutted :(
 
With the horse regarding navicular as i have experienced, your options are likely to be cutting the nerve (which i can only imagine to be awful not being able to feel your foot), some have tried going barefoot but obviously this is not going to improve navicular in the long term as its a degenerative disease, lastly there's the obvious to retire and have the horse as a light hack/ whatever feels comfortable. With mine she was obviously uncomfortable, on no bute (herbal painkiller) she was far more comfortable, i would have retired and kept on no bute.
 
Oh hugs Hon . . . not great diagnoses on the face of it, but perhaps I can offer you some hope.

My own boy was diagnosed with navicular changes in both fronts (and sidebone) last summer. Vet and farrier discussed the x-rays and his foot conformation and recommended rolled toes and bar shoes . . . and work. He needed bute for the first week or so, but hasn't been on bute since and is now out competing and sound as a pound.

Navicular isn't necessarily the career-limiting diagnosis it once was. With careful management and a good vet/farrier, horses can continue working without pain for much, much longer.

Take heart dear.

P
 
Contrary to what fornema says, navicular doesn't have to be degenerative. Check out Rockley farm - they have about an 80% or more success rate for returning to an equal level of work or higher.
 
The "subtle changes to the navicular bone" are almost certainly of no significance whatsoever, a very high proportion of sound horses will have the same. The spikes on the coffin bone would worry me a lot I'm afraid.

I also had an 8 year old with hock arthritis. He never jumped again but he is 17 this year and going strong, but not with me. I think it helps him being in a dry climate and he has hock injections from time to time.
 
Thank you for your posts :) Horse number two goes for an mri in a couple of weeks to hopefully give a definitive answer as to what is causing the problem - be it navicular bone,coffin joint or both. Farrier now has copies of his x rays so we can formulate some sort of plan as to what would work for him.

Horse number one has beenon quite a heavy danilon dose for the last three days (3 sachets in morning and evening) and looks like a different animal. She drops down to four a day as of tomorrow and then 2 a day next week. Her synquinarrives tomorrow hopefully so she can start that and then I guess the rest of it is upto me to decide her future.
 
toomanyhorses26 said:
Thank you for your posts :) Horse number two goes for an mri in a couple of weeks to hopefully give a definitive answer as to what is causing the problem - be it navicular bone,coffin joint or both. Farrier now has copies of his x rays so we can formulate some sort of plan as to what would work for him.

Horse number one has beenon quite a heavy danilon dose for the last three days (3 sachets in morning and evening) and looks like a different animal. She drops down to four a day as of tomorrow and then 2 a day next week. Her synquinarrives tomorrow hopefully so she can start that and then I guess the rest of it is upto me to decide her future.
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Best of luck and please keep us posted on how both (and you) are doing.

Fingers crossed.

P
 
Oh what horrible news for you. I've just had my big orange girl diagnosed with hock arthritis. She's 15, so not as young as yours, but very low mileage and also a brave, talented girl, who gets very cranky when she hurts! We tried a week's bute trial, but it didn't touch it and my vet was reluctant to take her out of work if we could avoid it because apparently the problematic bones need to fuse. His advice was to go straight ahead to the joint injection and, after some discussion, we put her on 4 weeks of cartrophen too. And to keep working her, as much or as little as she felt comfortable doing. She was great for the first week, iffy for the second week and a half, then definitely better and five weeks later has sailed through her reassessment sound. I gather she may still be on and off a bit for up to 18 months and may well need remedicating, but for the moment I'm glad to have my girl back. Fingers crossed, it should be a question of careful management to keep her happy and functional. I don't know if any of this helps you at all, but good luck with your beastie anyway!
 
Really sorry to hear that, it must be difficult for you atm. Just a little positive note from me - my friend's horse was diagnosed with navicular 9 years ago. Careful management has meant she is still happy to this day, although she's a happy hacker in light work. Danilon, gel pads and keeping her ticking over seems to have done the trick.
 
I have a horse who was diagnosed with Navicular. We then messed around for a couple of years and she then had an MRI to find lesions on the navicular bursar joints which were operated on by Ian Wright at Newmarket. She is now completely sound and out competing every weekend. MRI's are brilliant for getting the correct diagnosis which X-rays can't do as they can't see in joints. Good luck with MRI and hope you're insured!!
 
Can I add that going barefoot and going to rockley farm doesn't stop navicular being degenerative and isn't a guareentee of a sound horse. It may or may not help, it depends on each individual horse.
Many people talk about going barefoot like its a cure for navicular, it isn't otherwise that's all vets would recommend!
of course it may help with many horses but with others it won't.
I lost my horse to navicular, I tried all sorts of treatment over the years inc the no shoes route which made no difference to that particular horse.
 
This is why I have decided to go for the MRI as I dont want to be treating for something that actually isnt the cause of the problem - the vet themselves said that the changes are very slight and on many horseswouldnt be causing an issue. He has always been a horse where things have to be just so for him to be at his best. Plus I work better and feel better if I know what I am dealing with - I hate ifs ,buts and maybes. At the end of the day - lame or sound he will be living out his days with me. It more the right choices for my little mare that I am finding hard as she was only meant to be a project and I cant really afford to field ornamnets so I need to make some tough choices there.
 
charlie76 said:
Can I add that going barefoot and going to rockley farm doesn't stop navicular being degenerative and isn't a guareentee of a sound horse. It may or may not help, it depends on each individual horse.
Many people talk about going barefoot like its a cure for navicular, it isn't otherwise that's all vets would recommend!
of course it may help with many horses but with others it won't.
I lost my horse to navicular, I tried all sorts of treatment over the years inc the no shoes route which made no difference to that particular horse.
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I am really sorry, but I think your view is being clouded by the fact that you lost a horse and can't bring him back now and it is way out of date.

The fact is that unless the navicular bone was falling apart, or there were evident bone chips or spurs, or you had an MRI scan done, you have no idea what was wrong with your horse. The overwhelming majority of "navicular disease" is actually ddft, impar ligament or collateral ligament strain. Changes to the navicular bone on xray, unless very severe, are rarely the cause of any lameness.

None of the soft tissue injuries are degenerative unless the horse continues to walk with a toe first landing or lateral imbalances.

The vets don't recommend barefoot rehabs because neither they nor the farriers are taught about it during their lengthy training. There are so many of us now with sound horses that were written off by vets and farriers, and so many vets and farriers who now know what can be done, that I hope that will be changing some time in the not too distant future.

A barefoot rehab does not consist solely of taking off the shoes. The last rehab I did was still lame after a year in the paddock without shoes. He was sound in two months with a proper program of work to suit his injuries.

I write this knowing that it will cause you immense distress to have the idea put in your head that your horse might, with today's knowledge, have been saved. I am truly sorry for that.

But I have to write this, so that we can move closer to the day that no other horses go down that route unless it is absolutely essential.
 
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Charlie76 I am so sorry you lost a horse because of a navicular diagnosis.

But CPTRayes is right, times move on. Changes to the navicular bone are not the focus of concern they once were as it is becoming more widely recognised that soft tissue damage is key.

And vets are now recommending barefoot, true only a small percentage, but it is growing.

CPTRayes is also right in that it has to be a fully rounded effort, with dietary and exercise changes. Many of the 'navicular' horses I work on have laminitis to some degree and the frogs are badly decayed. Unfortunately time as a pasture ornament rarely resolves these two issues.

No criticism of people who have gone the pasture ornament route, in the day I probably would have too, but now some of us, using alternative techniques, are finding that a combination of an appropriate diet and exercise regime are so much more effective.

Here is one example

http://barefoothorseblog.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/bit-of-bind.html
 
Please don't presume I am a one horse owner who is clouded by a loss of a horse because I am not. I am a professional horse person who doesn't allow such things to affect my views.
I am well aware of things moving on and we have a horse in the yard who has been treated at rockley and the owner is pleased with the results which is great and I am pleased for her and horse, its working for her so why not.
I have not said that categorically it doesn't help, what I am saying is that it isn't a cure, its a help and it isn't a help for all horses in all situations.
I don't agree with the attitude of telling all horse owners with a navicular diagnosis that taking its, shoes off and changing its diet is going to cure it in the same way I wouldn't agree in some one saying egg bars will cure it. That's giving false hope imo

I am interested in anyone with a navicular horse that has taken the barefoot option who now has a horse that is sound at a competition level.. be eventing, bd, bs? And stayed sound.
I would also be interested to see x rays of navicular horses before and after the barefoot option to see the improvement in the bone and the lack of degeneration a year down the line.
Again, I am not saying it doesn't help but I do think its unfair to suggest it will stop it progressing when this simply might not be the case.
 
Take a look at rockleyfarm.blogspot.com, there are several recent posts showing past rehab horses competing.

My first rehab has now been sound for over three years and wins at elementary dressage, hunts occasionally, jumps at home non-competitively, and did the Lord Mayor's New Years Day parade - 4 hours on the road, this year.

One of Rockleys own horses is a rehab who has been hunting Exmoor for about 5 seasons.

No-one is saying all horses can be cured, but you said the condition is degenerative, meaning that it will get worse, and that is completely incorrect. The barefoot success rate appears to be around 80%. The conventional treatment results in around 20% of horses working to full capacity again.

You still don't get it, do you? Lameness in the back half of the foot is almost always a soft tissue injury. Soft tissue injuries CAN be cured.
So a barefoot rehab in a horse with soft tissue injury that comes sound HAS cured the horse.

Why do you need xrays of a sound horse, when the navicular bone was never responsible for the lameness in the first place? It is completely irrelevent whether "changes" to the navicular bone are still evident, they are so common in horses as to be considered "normal" as long as the horse is not lame.
 
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Tbh, I can't be bothered to argue with you, you always seem to be right so that's fine.
Other people are allowed their own opinions, although if they do you have a distinct way of making anyone who dares to disagree with your views out to be a half wit in the equine world. Sorry but this isn't the case.
Just because you have had success with this is doesn't mean to say everyone will but you are quick to dismiss anyone elses thoughts. I haven't dismissed the barefoot avenue just simply stating it isn't a cure all.
Are you a vet or farrier?
 
charlie76 said:
Tbh, I can't be bothered to argue with you, you always seem to be right so that's fine.
Other people are allowed their own opinions, although if they do you have a distinct way of making anyone who dares to disagree with your views out to be a half wit in the equine world. Sorry but this isn't the case.
Just because you have had success with this is doesn't mean to say everyone will but you are quick to dismiss anyone elses thoughts. I haven't dismissed the barefoot avenue just simply stating it isn't a cure all.
Are you a vet or farrier?
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I am neither a vet nor a farrier, but I know that most vets and farriers who have kept up to date will confirm exactly what I have written.

I am stating current scientific evidence, why do you have a problem with that?


And since you appear to have problems understanding me, I have already stated that 20% or so of barefoot rehabs fail to bring the horse back into full work. And indeed I have advised the poster of this very thread that I would be concerned about the prognosis for her horse.

You will, by the way, have a problem finding many recovered barefoot rehabs returning to competing at affiliated levels. That's because they are generally insured for large sums of money. If they follow conventional advice and it fails, they can claim on the insurance. If they follow a barefoot rehab they will be out of time for claiming on the insurance before they can be sure whether it has worked well enough to return the horse to affiliated competition. So most of them will be claimed for loss of use or humane destruction.

Frankly, I feel sorry for your poor livery, whoever s/he is, you are just sitting there waiting for the horse to fail, so it proves you right, aren't you?
 
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charlie76, no one suggested that taking shoes of will cure navicular 100% of the time. What was stated was that 80% of the horses treated at Rockley Farm are cured.

You stated categorically that a barefoot rehab will not stop navicular from being degenerative. The statistics prove otherwise.
 
Regarding my livery, your comment is bang out of order and totally incorrect. You have no idea of how I run my business, the care that goes into the animals at my yard.
The owner is not just a livery she is a friend and I would NEVER wish that on her and her horse. I would do anything to help her ensure it stays sound. I have already stated it is working for her and I am pleased for her. Your attitude is disgusting and if that's how you think other people think then you are so far off the mark its un true.
 
For the millionth time, I have never said it doesn't help many horses but that it is not a guareenteed cure .
Your whole ' I am always right ' attitude is unacceptable as is your tone and assumptions of other peoples thoughts and ideas.
 
Its a fact of life that we can't cure or sometimes even slow, every health problem. What works for some doesn't even touch the same problem in another, whether it be human, dog, cat, horse or any other species you care to name. All we can do is get a firm diagnosis and then try everything we can think of and hope for the best. An optimistic outlook will always help and don't admit defeat until there is no other way to turn. Be happy for the ones that succeed, and accept kindness and sympathy from everyone when you draw the short straw.

I've been there. I was the lucky one and always felt terrible for the people it didn't come off for.
 
Quite agree fatpiggy. My point exactly. What works for some might not work for another. In my friends case it seems to be working for her which is great. What annoys me is that the barefoot thing often comes as an attack if you dare to question the ways of it.
And then to follow it with such accusations. Not acceptable.
If my livery came to me and stated that she wanted to stick gold nike airs on him, if it helped I would support her!
I have to say the attacking style and aggression from people that have had success barefoot doesn't encourage discussion, conversation and explanations, it just makes you want to walk away
 
charlie76 said:
Quite agree fatpiggy. My point exactly. What works for some might not work for another. In my friends case it seems to be working for her which is great. What annoys me is that the barefoot thing often comes as an attack if you dare to question the ways of it.
And then to follow it with such accusations. Not acceptable.
If my livery came to me and stated that she wanted to stick gold nike airs on him, if it helped I would support her!
I have to say the attacking style and aggression from people that have had success barefoot doesn't encourage discussion, conversation and explanations, it just makes you want to walk away
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Actually I was trying to pour oil on troubled waters! If you look back at CPTrayes first post "directed" at you, they apologise in advance because they know you won't just agree due to your own experience. That was hardly attacking. Its called trying to see both sides while standing your own ground, and not many people are that thoughtful. I had some of the top vets in the country tell me my theory about my own horse's problem was bunkum but I held out and was eventually proved right and papers backing my observations have now been written by the exact same people. Opinions change. I would agree that in many cases, people here do seem to come over as rather aggressive, but I think that is partly due to the joys of print, and partly down the attitude/misinterpretation of the reader. There is no body language involved in print, and it is potentially very stark as a result. Twenty years ago navicular was a death sentence, now there are some options, but sadly, no guarantees.
 
I can't give you any advice as my horse has different problems but just wanted you to know you're not alone and my thoughts are with you. Six months ago one minute I was happily riding my beloved girl and enjoying every minute of it, the next I was being told I'd never ride her again and to stick her in a field, or worse still have her shot. It's been the most heartbreaking and stressful six months of my life, and it feels very very lonely especially when you see/hear about all your horsey friends going out and having fun with their horses. I really feel for you and really hope you find the answers you want and can get some good results for your babies...
 
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charlie76 said:
For the millionth time, I have never said it doesn't help many horses but that it is not a guareenteed cure .
Your whole ' I am always right ' attitude is unacceptable as is your tone and assumptions of other peoples thoughts and ideas.
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And for the third, or is it fourth, time - none of us have ever suggested that it is a guaranteed cure. So why do you keep on answering our posts as if we have?

Which bit of '20%' are not returned to full work' is it that you are having trouble understanding? Let us know and we will try and help you out with a better explanation.
 
You are so rude and sarcastic its
Untrue. Maybe address the way you post and I might have a little more respect for what you have to say.
If that's how you speak to people in real life then I am stunned. To be little people and reply in such a rude manner is unbelievable.

I am not an idiot and I don't appreciate being spoken to like one.

No one respects the opinions of rude people, suggest you read back through your replies and address your tone.

It's easy to hide behind a forum and come over as the be all and end all but not all the people you are rude to are total idiots, some might actually be as knowledgable as you seem to be.

I'll go back into my cave of knowing nothing now

Op. Good luck with your horses. I hope you get them right.
 
charlie76 said:
You are so rude and sarcastic its
Untrue. Maybe address the way you post and I might have a little more respect for what you have to say.
If that's how you speak to people in real life then I am stunned. To be little people and reply in such a rude manner is unbelievable.

I am not an idiot and I don't appreciate being spoken to like one.

No one respects the opinions of rude people, suggest you read back through your replies and address your tone.

It's easy to hide behind a forum and come over as the be all and end all but not all the people you are rude to are total idiots, some might actually be as knowledgable as you seem to be.

I'll go back into my cave of knowing nothing now

Op. Good luck with your horses. I hope you get them right.
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I do not hide behind a forum. My user name is my name. C P Trayes.

I answered your posts in kind.

If you do not wish to be addressed as if you are stupid, then I suggest that you stop repeating, over and over again, the accusation that anyone on this thread has suggested that all horses can be cured with a barefoot rehab. I tried being polite and I got nowhere, you just said it again and again. Now I seem to have got your attention perhaps you will stop repeating it?
 
charlie76 said:
You are so rude and sarcastic its
Untrue. Maybe address the way you post and I might have a little more respect for what you have to say.
If that's how you speak to people in real life then I am stunned. To be little people and reply in such a rude manner is unbelievable.

I am not an idiot and I don't appreciate being spoken to like one.

No one respects the opinions of rude people, suggest you read back through your replies and address your tone.

It's easy to hide behind a forum and come over as the be all and end all but not all the people you are rude to are total idiots, some might actually be as knowledgable as you seem to be.

I'll go back into my cave of knowing nothing now

Op. Good luck with your horses. I hope you get them right.
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I think cpt is always polite, well imformed and always up for debate. I m a farrier so tend to need a tin hat on round here but thats probably my own fault :)
 
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