Handle or leave a baby?

[paddy555]

But if we start thinking that way, they don't ever deserve to have their world turned completely upside down when they are brought into work at three or four.

I would much rather see a youngster regularly doing fun and easy stuff with a human who is managing it well than have it suddenly put through a massive change in its life, which is what I see happen to young stock which are largely unhandled after learning the basics.
.

that is exactly what I am trying to say.

 

[paddy555]

Paddy - as long as they learn to be caught, led, pick feet up young then they don’t forget (although May test the boundaries ?).

It’s not about letting them run completely ferel from the outset. It’s about not overdoing it. In my opinion there is no need to be handling every day, taking for walks, grooming, faffing with tarp walking or god forbid parelli shite.

Check them and give them a pat every day. Headcollar goes on for vet/farrier/moving fields. If you run into an issue, sort it with a short spell of targeted handling. Then leave them be.

I speak to many people who break horses. I’ve seen loads of youngsters grow up in different environments and this, in my opinion, is the best way - as supported by the vast majority of pro handlers.

all of this is repeated so many times but what does it actually mean.
I'm not suggesting they forget at all but what is wrong with what you call overdoing it? By teaching them I don't mean grooming, picking up feet and basic leading. That is a given for a youngster.
I mean further training. What is wrong with tarp walking? What is wrong with sliding the tarp over the back, under the belly, between the legs?
What is wrong with it walking over poles and L backing down them? What is wrong with taking the wheely bin for a walk in the road on one of your walks or dragging an oil can behind it? What is wrong with playing football and kicking the ball between it's legs and throwing it at it's sides? As some stage a child is going to do precisely that at a picnic place, better it learns to be bombproof as a matter of course.
The youngster is not stressed, it's stress levels keep deteriorating as it is subject slowly to more stress. It enjoys learning and learns to learn even more.
There is no "breaking" the horse up to the stage of being mounted and wandering a few steps with a rider to learn what weight is, learnt about traffic and machinery, being long reined out and been led in all sorts of positions. He has not been broken. He has just slowly assimilated all of that knowledge. There is no breaking.
Now he is ready for someone to start actually riding, walking and trotting and then riding out. (of course that may not be the early years handler, they may not have the confidence for this stage)
How easy it has all been.

the majority of pro handlers to me is questionable along with the idea of we have always done it that way.

I would be interested to hear why over doing it is bad.

 

[paddy555]

No they don't, but they are often less enthusiastic about being ridden, almost sour, and IME don't progress as fast. Over time they are fine, usually, but I find heavily shown young horses are often a bit dull.

mine aren't shown, I am talking about training not showing, although of course travelling and showing is more good varied experience.

I would suggest less enthusiastic ridden may well be down to their first proper rider. That may not be the early years trainer. If that (breaking) rider is poor, lacks confidence or fails to motivate the horse then obviously it will not be so keen.

 

[stangs]

But if we start thinking that way, they don't ever deserve to have their world turned completely upside down when they are brought into work at three or four.

Surely if their world is being turned upside down when they get broken in, then they're being broken in too quickly?

At 3 or 4 imo, they ought to be being introduced to the world in the same way that people on this thread are introducing 2yos to it. Backing can always be postponed whereas they'll never get their baby years back. Age 2 is for having fun with fieldmates, knowing basic husbandry skills, maybe doing some fun new things (like going for a walk or exploring the arena - both with other horses) but only once every couple months.

 

[Cortez]

mine aren't shown, I am talking about training not showing, although of course travelling and showing is more good varied experience.

I would suggest less enthusiastic ridden may well be down to their first proper rider. That may not be the early years trainer. If that (breaking) rider is poor, lacks confidence or fails to motivate the horse then obviously it will not be so keen.

Erm, their first rider would have been me.
There is plenty of time in a horse’s life, he doesn’t need all that stuff thrown at him as a baby. I have seen first hand what happens when inexperienced people decide to have a foal and “bond” with it. There was a trend years ago to imprint train foals: that didn’t end well in the examples I saw. Now if you’re more experienced you’ll know when to step back and will undoubtably produce young horses that are a delight, but I am relating my experience of many, many foals over a lot of years.

 

[paddy555]

I still can't see any reason from the replies as to why a young horse cannot learn nor that he can be over taught so I give up. The more any horse can learn at any age seems to be a great advantage to prepare and enable him to cope with life in the human world.
The only reason I can make out not to do much is because of the handlers nothing to do with the horses. That's not a reason just an area for education.

For those you advocate just a small amount of handling for routine tasks and then out with others in the field until they are 3 or 4 I have no idea how I could make that work if I wanted to keep the horse barefoot unless he was at a barefoot livery with variations in the track. You would end up at 3 or 4 with a very new to ride horse on surfaces he may well not cope with. All his feet would cope with would be a grass field. You would miss all those early years of conditioning. To me in an ideal world the young horses should be going out riding either loose or on a leadrope all of which would educate them as well.

 

[ycbm]

Surely if their world is being turned upside down when they get broken in, then they're being broken in too quickly?

I just don't see the benefit to a horse to allow it to spend years in a lifestyle that it isn't going to have again until its no longer fit to ride. I see benefits to the owners/handlers, and that's fine if that's what they want to do. But not fine if they want to tell others that they shouldn't be doing it, which this thread is coming close to at times.
.

 

[paddy555]

There is plenty of time in a horse’s life, he doesn’t need all that stuff thrown at him as a baby..

and this little chap agrees with you.

(this just came up on my FB feed and I couldn't resist)

 

[windand rain]

Might be wrong but it is the idea of a regimented daily 30 minute walk followed by 20 minutes in a school then an hours groom etc that most professionals don't like, The foal forced to interact with humans for longer than being horses etc. I like paddy55 ideas to a point but not daily or even regularly at all hence my haphazzard approach. by the time they are ready to be backed they have been out and about, met traffic, been long reined independently around the town (the quiet safe bits) loaded, lead, trot up in hand in straightish lines, stay in a stable tie up have a bath which sounds like a lot but may have only been caught once or twice a month if that

 

[paddy555]

Might be wrong but it is the idea of a regimented daily 30 minute walk followed by 20 minutes in a school then an hours groom etc that most professionals don't like, The foal forced to interact with humans for longer than being horses etc. I like paddy55 ideas to a point but not daily or even regularly at all hence my haphazzard approach. by the time they are ready to be backed they have been out and about, met traffic, been long reined independently around the town (the quiet safe bits) loaded, lead, trot up in hand in straightish lines, stay in a stable tie up have a bath which sounds like a lot but may have only been caught once or twice a month if that

I cannot recall ever putting time or day limits on it. I am not sure the average yearling would work for those lengths of time, they have to learn to learn and to start with those are for minutes as they don't have concentration for longer. As they learn the times get longer. If I take one for a walk it may well be for an hour, shock horror, as that is what the babysitting horse is going out for. If I groom it then it may last 10 minutes.
I have a small yard that faces onto the road. If cattle are wandering up and down the road then it may be shut in there with some hay for as long as they are providing a useful service wandering past.

We may walk out on the road daily and then it will go into Kevin mode and that will be it for a few weeks until it joins the real world again.Usually if an interesting opportunity comes up for example the digger is digging out the dung heap I grab it. I drive the digger back and lead the horse off it.

These are not foals.
They are yearlings, 2yo 3yo and possibly early 4yo.

This is a clip I copied to save me writing it out.
Flat racehorses are broken-in at around 18 months of age, having already been very well handled and used to having a bit in its mouth, as well as usually having been lunged and led out in hand. They will also be used to wearing rugs, being shod and generally examined by a variety of people.

this is way more that I would have done with a 18 m or 2yo. I would never lunge ever, nor bit it nor shoe it.
I most certainly would not be on it's back.So if it is perfectly acceptable for a TB to have all this done why on earth can't the ordinary horse owner do some handling and interesting exercises.



I don't care what people do, it is up to them. What I find annoying is when people ask a question on here about a youngster and they immediately get told they are wrong. It must go to a youngstock livery, must be left in a field to play with it's mates until it is 3 or 4. It should only have very minimal handling to do the essentials otherwise it will be ruined.
There is nothing nicer for someone with a young horse to train it early on especially if they want to keep it. It gives a real connection with the horse. (that is connection not bonding with a cuddly foal BTW)

 

[milliepops]

There is nothing nicer for someone with a young horse to train it early on especially if they want to keep it. It gives a real connection with the horse. (that is connection not bonding with a cuddly foal BTW)

I'm pretty sure i've broken all the HHO rules with my homebred but I have to agree with this statement, i enjoy time with her as much or more than all the others combined. i cuddled her, i still do (i cuddle any horse that invites it ) but i've also done a fair bit of generalised training and handling and i find her very easy to read and understand. she is an information sponge - when i've done stuff with the 3yo she is clearly keen to be involved with anything new.
Anyway i'll be backing her myself so if I've b00gered it up, it's only me that will suffer

 

[windand rain]

I'm pretty sure i've broken all the HHO rules with my homebred but I have to agree with this statement, i enjoy time with her as much or more than all the others combined. i cuddled her, i still do (i cuddle any horse that invites it ) but i've also done a fair bit of generalised training and handling and i find her very easy to read and understand. she is an information sponge - when i've done stuff with the 3yo she is clearly keen to be involved with anything new.
Anyway i'll be backing her myself so if I've b00gered it up, it's only me that will suffer

Me too I don't like rules and I apologise to paddy55 I didn't mean you I meant it depends on the mind set of both horse and handler as to the quality of handling treating them like young horses is positive treating them like human babies is useless and of course there a million routes in between

 

[Xmasha]

I’m assuming here that my set up is pretty similar to most peoples .
my foals are handled from the minute they are born. They are taught to lead / be groomed / caught and have feet picked up etc . Once that’s established I don’t purposely do a great deal with them . However mine do come in daily when the weather is bad and on the way in and out they are expected to walk over that bit of Haylage wrap that’s blown off the bale .. so similar to paddy555 asking them to walk over tarp ?? Our yard is a mixture of terrain .. concrete / arena / chipping etc … so similar to paddy555 going for walks . If they come in wet and are a bit shivery they get a fleece our towel on them to dry them off . So again used to stuff being thrown over them .
when I’m clipping a grown up .. they watch and get a look at the clippers
I could go on and on .. my point being we don’t purposely do groundwork with any youngster until they are an age to be backed . I’d rather leave them be , They have years ahead of them to do purposeful work .But that doesn’t mean they are feral and so far those that have been backed have taken it all in there stride . ( not hundreds admittedly)

so my point being that most of the people on here whilst doing limited stuff with youngsters will more than likely be doing all the stuff paddy555 has suggested but in a less formal / structured manner .

 

[paddy555]

[QUOTE="windand rain, post: 14819225, member: 101350" it is the idea of a regimented daily 30 minute walk followed by 20 minutes in a school then an hours groom etc [/QUOTE]

I don't even do that with mature horses. Nothing I do is formal. I have an agenda that I want the yearling,,2,3yo to be able to do XYZ but that is done when I have time, when it is in a good conducive training mood and when opportunities present themselves. There is no timetable, it could take months or years or it could be tomorrow.

The tarpaulin seems to be causing amusement. When I ride out of here about 200 yards up the road is a very mucky farmyard the road goes through. Messy farmer, silage bags and silage wrapping everywhere and usually lying all over the road and often blocking it. Unless the horse can walk over it then we will be going nowhere. As they march over the plastic then I can see the tarp. training has done it's job. Plastic is boring.

Sometimes we go for a walk in hand and OH comes on his bike. So we are going bike training and we need to as we have a lot round here.


None of this is training the horse as in regimented schooling, it is simply training the youngster to cope with the many things and situations in the human world where it is going to be living that are thrown at it. That will make his life a lot less stressful and easier and it will be safer for everyone.

Milliepops,
OMG, I was horrified by the "cuddling" I thought that was just me.

 

[Horses_Rule]

Everyone is an expert when it comes to these things. I just think you reap what you sow with young horses. Most of my babies I have taught basics feet, tying up leading etc and left. However my 18month old I have atm had fistulous withers over the summer and lost a lot of condition so this winter she is being treated like a ‘normal’ horse. Comes in at night out in the day abit of tlc to get her back on track. The daily handling is doing her the world of good, teaching the stable manners and so on. Once the summer comes she’ll go out back into a herd 24/7. I really believe in quality of handling not quantity but I do agree it’s alot to expect and I’ve seen it where 3 year olds are brought in for backing and are just terrified of life and we expect them to deal with it, then let us sit on them and kick them around in arenas and roads when they haven’t been exposed to anything. With these levels of stress people are probably setting their young horses up for ulcer issues from the beginning.I don’t think it’s ‘over handling’ that’s the issue just the type of handling or people that ruins them.

 

[windand rain]

I actually think that no one is an expert as what works for one may well not work for another it's a bit play is by ear and be prepared to adapt to the personality involved. A vague plan is a good idea but the ability to adapt is key

 

[Ellietotz]

I'm inexperienced with youngsters and I'm currently learning with my own foal.
For me, overhandling would be cuddling them all the time, scratching, letting them lean on you and scratch you back as it sets no boundaries, letting them chase you (massive pet peeve, it's just stupid and dangerous). All the "nice" things you would do to maybe bond with an established adult horse, I wouldn't do with a foal. Certainly no treats from the hand either. Everything is quite strict when he is being handled. I tend to pay him no attention when he is turned out and just get on with jobs as I've learned to do with my mare who was overhandled and spoilt and has no sense of personal space.

I have no schedules with what I do, it's too dark in the evenings to do anything at the moment anyway. He comes out once or twice on the weekend to tie up, brush, pick up feet, back up/stand etc and I might add in putting a towel on his back or rubbing his belly with it to dry off or spray some pig oil/fly spray to get him used sprays and walk through puddles on purpose on the way back to the field, letting him see chickens and cars that pull in. Though the "extras" aren't every single time, just once every couple of weeks when he is out to have that general exposure to normal things. During the week, he is mostly left to it turned out 24/7 and I always make sure I'm setting boundaries as the norm.

 

[twobearsarthur]

For the past 30 years I’ve had youngsters (from 6 months up) and always kept them as the other horses on the yard were kept. In so much as they were handled daily, stabled, turned out in the yard routine etc. and never had any particular issues.
This time though I have a very well respected youngstock livery on my doorstep and chose this very different approach for my colt.
It was a culture shock for me in all ways. The communal living, a lot less handling and a total different routine.
He’s been there 12 months now. He was pretty feral when I got him and I don’t know how or why but in the last year he’s become mannerly and much easier to do than any of my previous youngsters. I have no idea how or why. Whether it’s just him, his breeding or the way I’ve decided to keep him he just seems more at ease and confident when I do, do the odd bit of handling.
He’s handled for the vet, farrier, worming etc. and I bring him into a stable/take for a walk maybe 2-3 times a month tops to do something with him.
I’ll never know if he would have behaved the same way if I’d kept him in the way I kept my others but his bachelor herd youth seems to suit him.

 

[TheMule]

This is for those people that think that if a youngster hasn’t been stabled etc then it won’t cope with later life. My homebred has been in a stable twice in his life- once as a foal for an hour with his dam to be plaited and once last summer for a couple of hours in between lessons. This weekend he went to camp, spent his first ever night in a stable and was probably the most settled horse there- he spent the entire time stuffing himself full of haylage ?

 

[Errin Paddywack]

I have to say in the early days of breeding my foals were very well handled, walked out on the roads, learned to load if they were being shown etc. Always seemed very easy to handle and break in. The last one I bred I no longer had stables so he never saw one, didn't get a lot of handling, did learn the basics of lunging at 3 when I was putting him up for sale, unsuccessfully as it happened. Just turned away again then and finally sold unbacked at 4. That horse had never been anywhere, never left the field and had been a very stroppy youngster that I never got on with. However he loaded straight into a trailer, travelled perfectly then walked through a barn style set up to his stable where he settled immediately so I was told. He went on to do well in dressage to my amazement.

 

[paddy555]

This is for those people that think that if a youngster hasn’t been stabled etc then it won’t cope with later life. My homebred has been in a stable twice in his life- once as a foal for an hour with his dam to be plaited and once last summer for a couple of hours in between lessons. This weekend he went to camp, spent his first ever night in a stable and was probably the most settled horse there- he spent the entire time stuffing himself full of haylage ?

View attachment 87182

mine sadly wasn't/isn't. The first time he was stabled was when he came at 4. He is now 17. He still cannot cope well with a stable and, other than hay and feed which gives him something to do, he weaves with stress after only a few minutes in a stable. If he is stressed and you go into the stable he will try to go over the top of you to get out. This is not bad manners but simply due to stress that he has to get out. This can be when other horses are stabled next door and he can talk to them and groom them.

When he had to go to horse hospital which was an American barn stabling in cages he coped very badly. The staff struggled to deal with him. He was just a total stress head whilst there. I went up daily to take him for a walk. He was fine out walking, put him back in the stable and problems immediately arose.
I stabled him for a few minutes last week for the vet. We were discussing him for a very short time, just minutes and he was weaving very badly and totally stressed even in just that short time.
I don't think it does youngsters any favours by failing to teach them to be stabled.

 

[windand rain]

Personally I agree with paddy 555 all horses should learn while young to do all the things they need to do as adults. I have possibly missed the boat with clippers as I don't clip but everything else has been done again in a kind of haphazzard way. She has heard clippers running had them running on her but not been clipped. The more polite and able t do things horses are at breaking age the better they cope with life later on and the more likely they are to get good homes for good prices than the quirky doesn't "do" ones

 

[TheMule]

My sister's homebred is the worst box walker ever and she has been in a stable overnight since birth.

I clipped both my 4 year olds this Autumn when they were loose on the hard standing- they have never seen the clippers before but it was a total non-issue.

We're obviously all going to have to agree to disagree ?

 

[windand rain]

Not disagreeing Mule but pointing out all are different some it is fine to handle minimally others might have different views and handle daily some horses will respond to one type of upbringing others to the opposite. Some neither works for and their temperament foils the best

 

[Caol Ila]

What I’m getting from this thread is that it depends on the horse, and regardless of what we do, there’s temperament/genetic factors that we can’t control for.

Both my two were not handled as youngsters. The Highland was actually feral, the PRE was with a breeder who didn’t believe in halter breaking or doing anything with babies. PRE is not stabled at her current yard, but she has been at my previous yard, and she was fine with it. When I bought Highland in July and brought him to my yard, he was stabled during the day and out at night. At the start of December, the yard switched to day turn-out and nghts inside. No problem (well, some catching issues but I got to the bottom of that, and it was nothing to do with the stable). I wondered if the December change in routine, from nights out to nights in, would affect him. It didn't.

That all said, I spent a lot of time quietly swearing at my PRE's breeder for not halter breaking her babies or teaching them to let you handle their feet. Quite a lot of swear words were said. If my horse had been taught those things when she was the same age as her son, this year would have been way easier on everyone, her most of all. Her breeder really did her a disservice by doing nothing.

I obviously wasn't there when my Highland was gentled and halter broken, but his first trainer said he was amenable, straightforward, and learned things easily. However, his previous owner bought three ferals from that herd (including him), and the trainer said the other two were wild and quite dangerous. They would go from 0-60 in half a second, and you'd have hurl yourself over a 6ft round pen fence if they really kicked off. That was in 2018. When I viewed my horse in 2021, those two horses were okay to catch and lead, but still not ridden (though one had come around to letting someone sit on him). I have heard reports about other horses from that herd that were also untameable, and a handful who have gone on to be functional riding horses.

In this case, you have a population of horses -- many of whom are related -- all brought up in more or less the same way. Virtually no human contact. Some of them readily accept the domesticated lifestyle -- stabling, riding, restraint, the whole nine yards; others remain very wild; and a few come around with time and the right training but it's not easy.

There's definitely a personality factor in all this.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Excellent post CI.

Interestingly the horse I had that really couldn't stand being stabled (to the point that she shook and wouldn't eat or drink) was an ex-racehorse who had been stabled without turnout from when she started training and then went on to live out as a broodmare. Thankfully the job I had her for involved living out as a nanny for youngstock. However I got a lot of unsolicited and unsuitable 'advice' from people about how to train her to be stabled.

 

[stangs]

Ultimately, the best method is the one that results in the baby being mentally prepared for life as a domesticated horse. As long as you've achieved that, it doesn't really matter which of the two paths you take.

I have heard reports about other horses from that herd that were also untameable, and a handful who have gone on to be functional riding horses.

If the majority didn't go on to be riding horses, I wonder if this is more of an issue of lack of understanding as to training ferals in this country?
-

 

[Caol Ila]

Ultimately, the best method is the one that results in the baby being mentally prepared for life as a domesticated horse. As long as you've achieved that, it doesn't really matter which of the two paths you take.



If the majority didn't go on to be riding horses, I wonder if this is more of an issue of lack of understanding as to training ferals in this country?
-

That was definitely a part of it, and more of them might have been trainable had they been with people who were competent at working with ferals. Fin's situation was the better experiment, since there were three horses at the same yard with the same trainer, who knew what she was doing. He was the only one who could be safely backed and ridden away.

Ian Stark was the public face of the WHW round-up, and he ended up with seven. The Starks were able to train four of those horses to be functional riding ponies. One of the ponies they couldn't train was picked up by a vet who had experience with ferals, and she gentled him, backed him, and brought him on. She even evented him. I can't exactly recall what they said happened to the other two -- if they were put down or continued to live their lives as pasture ornaments.

 

[maya2008]

I would say that the best think I have ever done is to take the current 3yo out hacking on the lead over the winter. She is getting fitter, learning to manage different terrain, seeing the world and gaining experience - backing will be a formality when she’s old enough - nothing will phase her as she’ll have seen it all before!