Happy Days For ISH Breeders

Its really all point of view. Granted some people's point of view is that a hunter is only useful if it works in the field. Fine. Just that the focus in the US is not about the field, its about the show ring. People can think whatever way they like about it, but the focus is different. That's just how it is. Bad, good, indifferent...doesn't matter.

Few people in the US strictly hunt, and the ones that do are for the most part (unless privately wealthy) not willing to pay the high expense to ship one over for strictly that purpose. There just aren't the numbers of people who hunt in the US vs. other countries to accommodate that type of horse. They can buy other horses for less money to suit the purpose. In the past, yes it happened more when money was less of an issue, today: not so. An the exchange rate isn't helping the issue either.

For the record there is absolutely nothing wrong with traditional type horses, just that it costs a lot to ship them and that most Irish horses (particularly with Draught in them) don't fit the bill for the purpose people would be buying. Are they useful yes, do they fit the US hunters, no. They just aren't refined enough and don't move well enough. Of the stallions standing in Ireland there are a few that fit the bill....though they are continental-bred. Lancelot is one, and is a proven hunter sire in the US. I can think of a couple others: Abalou-Verte fits the type and I have told Andrea Etter so. A Quidam M is another, and I've told Tina McDermott so. Its all about way of going, movement, type and style. I can't think of a single traditional Irish-bred horse that fits the market. Not even the Clover Hills. Most people in the US looking to buy a hunter don't care if it hunts in the field or not. Because most will never participate in hunting anyway even if they had the opportunity.


I'll dig up some hunter video links and post them so people can have a look. Don't have time to do it right now, but I'll get some out there.
 
I wasn't being judgemental either way when I made the comment about showing and working. It was simply a statement of fact - that a worker is probably going to be very different from a show animal, simply because the emphasis is placed on very different qualities and therefore the attributes being bred into each type are going to be different.

The only judgement I will make - and I have the same issue with showing across the board, whether horses, dogs or anything else - is that showing was supposed to be for the purpose of preserving an animal's type for a purpose and therefore presenting floaty pristine show ponies and calling them "hunters" is, in my opinion, and I will stress that it is only my opinion, against the original aim of showing.

What markets demand is another matter altogether and we can all refer to many points in this thread when people have argued for breeding "bread and butter" horses over potential champions.

I think the point is that the "mass market" for good Irish hunters and general alrounders is still predominantly the UK, where, yes, people actually go hunting with their hunters, or crash around hunter trial or SJ courses at the week end and have a gallop through the stubbles and end up down a village pub on a sunny Sunday afternoon, where their horses are just tied up in the car park or the beer garden and wait there quietly to bring inhebriated riders home (you can tell I'm not talking from experience :D). Those riders, the vast majority of UK horse owners, have been and will be a mass market for Irish hunters, as they are generally 100% fit for purpose. (And I know Eothain will not be seen dead breeding one of those, but most people I know are really fond of them ;))

Just recently, the German warmblood marketing machine has upset the balance by pushing "failed" dressage divas onto poor unsuspecting British teenage girls, who can be seen hopelessly overhorsed and petrified on flashy prancing animals, snorting like dragons and spooking at their own shadows at local shows.

Rant over. DRSsporthorses, you are right, there is no good reason for Americans to import utility horses from Ireland when they have great working horses onsite with the quarter horses - strong, brave, agile and a heck of a back end on them...
 
Thanks for that Firm will enjoy having a look later now all the horses are in bed. David Tatlow placed my 2yo at the All Ireland final so I quite like him. He didn't make me an offer though but that's OK because the horse is a mud machine on four legs and loves his cross country so no more show ring for him. You have to hand it to those top show people, the effort and presentation is amazing. We are only amateurs but it is fun for me showing the babies as I don't do any ridden shows these days and its beer money and a ribbon for me if my luck is in.
 
as far as irish sj's go we have produced the top before i think we can do it again we still have strong influences from clover hill,cruising and cavalier can we not not produce top sj's from those raw material's
 
Simsar: Can't get any of the video links to work on the Blackberry site so really can't tell you anything about them.

Not sure how many times I need to say this: I have no issue with Irish draughts. The discussion isn't about dishing on Irish draughts. The comment was about the 'huge' market for 'happy hackers/traditional-style hunters' in the US. The stallions on that Blackberry website are very nice, no doubt about that. But that's not what is winning in the hunter ring in the US and its not what US purchasers who go to Ireland are looking for. They are looking for eventers and showjumpers. Americans heading over the Atlantic to purchase hunters are going to the continent, not Ireland for the reasons stated above. I didn't create the American hunter trade, it was there long before now and will continue to be. I'm simply the messenger. Shoot the messenger if you like, won't change the fact that Irish draughts in the US are a niche market. Also won't change the fact that most people won't spend the money to ship a happy hacker to the US when they don't have to.

I don't breed draughts any more than I breed horses for the US hunters. If I found one that I thought I could ship and sell for that market I would do it, sure thing. I'm sure most people would if they thought they could make some money by doing it. The right horse for the hunter market is hard to come by.

We have plenty of friends that breed super nice Irish draughts, no problem there. Simply the US market is pretty slim for draughts. Americans breeding draughts in the US have a much better chance at selling them simply for the reason they eliminate the cost of shipping overseas (currently in the 10k range).

For those asking about links to US hunters: here are a few. This is the type of horse that is winning in the hunters in the US and the type of horses Americans are looking for when they shop overseas. Pay close attention to the easy way-of-going, the long, flat, low movement (particularly at the trot). Fence heights range from 1.10 (3'6") -1.25 (4 ft).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r13J-QNiPlQ&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaKaLwvIOCg&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elAYfXxEcnQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYH0DVtjc78&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuZnnI-rV0k
 
Bearskin found it ignore me I'm a thicket!:eek:

DRS the second video (grey horse) looks and goes very similar to a Working Hunter my Mrs bred 10 years ago who was out of a TB mare by an ID stallion, I see what you mean about them being refined but you can get an ID/TB like that, I was just pointing out that when referring to the BRF stud and there stallions, they would cross well to make your hunter types. I understand what you are saying about the market in the USA but just trying to stick with my theory about not HAVING to use continental breeds. :D

This is the ID/TB who I referred to above, I will try and find a pic of him moving
Pilot6.jpg


and this is our ID colt who we think moves exceptionally and is hopefully destined for great things (fingers crossed).
img071.jpg
 
Having worked in the US and been to a few shows I can say that the Hunters are of various types. The top ones are very pretty though. Tidy build, flat movers (as opposed to lots of knee action) and the jumping ones have classic technique but not neccessarily huge power/scope. Their temperaments need to be perfect.
 
And this thread has come roaring back to life!

Like this: rrrrrroooooaaaaaarrrrrr!!!!!!

I'm going to avoid the American Hunter question for a moment because I know sweet f**k all about it, so my apologies for rewinding back to Irish eventers.

There are very few people in this country who bred eventers on purpose and I will stand over that comment whole heartedly. Off the top of my head, the only people I know who breed for eventing are John Watson, Horseware Bushman, the Walsh family in Kilkenny who bred Hugginstown and Dromgurrihy Blue. They also bred the mare Eskerhills Lexis, a full sister to Dromgurrihy Blue, that I showjump. She was placed at 1.20 last year and hopefully will move up to 1.35 for the 7 Year Old classes this year. They also bred a magnificent Guidam/Shannondale Y2K colt that makes me sick everytime I think how I couldn't afford him when I was down there!!! Ted Walsh, sire of Ruby, bred the horse Stoneybrook specifically for Katie to event. He's by Cruising out of a point to point winning Bahrain mare. Sue Short rides him now I think.

I'm sure there is plenty more of Eventing specific breeders but they're in a minority. Simple as that. Most breeders dream of seeing their horse on RTE 1 in the RDS main arena on the first friday in August.

Let's look at Mr Medicott for example. Francis Connors produced to jump in the 5 year old classes and while he was no doubt very good, Francis told his owners that he wasn't careful enough to go further. So he was brought eventing and long story short, ended up winning team gold at the 2008 Olympiad.

As the dressage phase becomes more and more important in eventing, more and more riders are bringing out continental horses. Look at Ollie Townend and his team of greys. I'm not sure how they're bred but they're not Irish, which for me is a problem.

Way back somewhere in the first 15 pages I think, I described what I would do with the ISH studbook to improve our show jumpers, defend our eventing position and keep our general purpose horses. It was robust and fair.

For the record, I have no problem with general purpose horses. If I can find one cheap, school it up and sell it on then happy days but I absolutely refuse to accept the argument that horses bred to showjump must go to 1.60 level or the like or face being branded a failure. Every year in this country hundreds of riders retire from jumping ponies and look for useful horses to learn the game for horse classes. That is where the market is in my mind. A horse that can be ridden around 1.10 and brought up to 1.30 if needs be and be competitive in the ever-increasingly professional Young Rider classes.

You see, my goal is two fold. The people in this recession who have money and the people who had money at the height of the boom were spending it on horses outside of our country. They were buying in all manner and sort of warmblood horse. Swedish, Belgian, Holstein, Hannovarian, French, name it, it came in.

So here's the problem for me. If the quality of our horses were better then even without foreign buyers coming in, the economic strenght of the sport horse sector increases because the hundreds of thousands that were being spent abroad are staying in the country.

When a foreign dealer/agent sells a horse for let's say 50,000, they can take perhaps 30,000 of that and invest it in new horses. Thats 6 foals bought for 5,000. All the auxillory people involved in the process then see a trickle of that money which helps the entire sector float.

Where does the business end of things involve breeding? Well they go hand in hand. Only by breeders having a good business plan to go with their breeding strategy can sport horse breeding in Ireland shake the negative image of being a hobby industry, the poor cousin of the thoroughbred juggernaut if you will.

Clearly our current breeding lines aren't good enough to cut it anymore, so far from quitting, we're breeding fresh life into a stagnant pool of genetics. Re-invigorating the breed and rebooting our horses. What happens then? We firstly entice back the non-breeding nations for our horses, Italy, Switzerland, Finland, Norway etc. Why? Because we'll have a marketable product that will once again have a place in the elite market. We break back into the American Hunter market. Business can pick up then for an entire sector, be we have got to be innovative in how we go about improving the standard of our horses. Playing the mad scientist with differing degrees of ID and TB crosses has not, will not, does not work. It has failed miserably. I blame the Draught breeders who oppose any attempts to performance test Draught horses. I say applaude the Draught men who have kept up to speed by jumping their horses up to a decent height in open competition. What is a decent height? For me it's at least 1.20m

This thread represents the elite market for me. No, every horse will not make it on to the Global Champions Tour but if it can help a Young Rider pay for his or her diesel every week then fantastic stuff. If it can help a Young Rider develop a career, even better again!

I'm trying my damndest to look at the big picture here but I must stress, I'm talking in general about improving our showjumpers because defending our eventing crown is a whole different procedure which I'd be delighted to discuss and the darling general purpose horses will always be there but Britain cannot be the sole buyer of our stock. We don't want market saturation, which we're approaching much too quickly. If we are to increase our buyer range, then we improve our product.

The Continental x Irish cross is already yielding results for breeders. Forgetting about the Cavalier's for a moment:

Fresh Direct Kalico Bay. Tim Stockdale, GBR. 2nd BP Cup, Spruce Meadows Masters 2009 as an 8 year old. Limmerick (Holst) x Cruising
Dorada. Shane Breen, IRL. Joint 3rd DFS Hickstead Derby 2009 Harlequin Du Carel x Clover Hill
Carmena Z. Shane Breen, IRL. Queen Elizabeth II Cup, Hickstead Royal International 2008 as an 8 year old. Carthago x Irco Mena x King Of Diamonds
Ringfort Cruise. Capt David O'Brien, IRL. Double Clear Lisbon Nations Cup 2007. Cruising x Nimmerdor.
Touchdown. James Kernan, IRL. Barcelona Olympics 1992. Highest Irish finisher and sire of 2002 World Champion, Liscalgot. Galoubet A x Cheyne

If we are to be competitive as a showjumping breed and have an economically viable breeding sector then like it or not then one or two more generations of Irish horses need to be crossed with foreign blood. That will develop new exciting lines that can be crossed with the good young stallions we have coming on like Cara Touche, Cruisings MF, Samjemgee, Oldtown KC etc. Then and only then will be competitive as a jumping breed.

Please note I'm omitting mention of quality mares because at this point it goes without saying.

Only when we make the difficult choices for our horses going forward with the 2028 Olympics as our goal, will it be Happy Days For ISH Breeders
 
DRSsporthorses said:
Simsar: Can't get any of the video links to work on the Blackberry site so really can't tell you anything about them.

Not sure how many times I need to say this: I have no issue with Irish draughts. The discussion isn't about dishing on Irish draughts. The comment was about the 'huge' market for 'happy hackers/traditional-style hunters' in the US. The stallions on that Blackberry website are very nice, no doubt about that. But that's not what is winning in the hunter ring in the US and its not what US purchasers who go to Ireland are looking for. They are looking for eventers and showjumpers. Americans heading over the Atlantic to purchase hunters are going to the continent, not Ireland for the reasons stated above. I didn't create the American hunter trade, it was there long before now and will continue to be. I'm simply the messenger. Shoot the messenger if you like, won't change the fact that Irish draughts in the US are a niche market. Also won't change the fact that most people won't spend the money to ship a happy hacker to the US when they don't have to.

I don't breed draughts any more than I breed horses for the US hunters. If I found one that I thought I could ship and sell for that market I would do it, sure thing. I'm sure most people would if they thought they could make some money by doing it. The right horse for the hunter market is hard to come by.

We have plenty of friends that breed super nice Irish draughts, no problem there. Simply the US market is pretty slim for draughts. Americans breeding draughts in the US have a much better chance at selling them simply for the reason they eliminate the cost of shipping overseas (currently in the 10k range).

For those asking about links to US hunters: here are a few. This is the type of horse that is winning in the hunters in the US and the type of horses Americans are looking for when they shop overseas. Pay close attention to the easy way-of-going, the long, flat, low movement (particularly at the trot). Fence heights range from 1.10 (3'6") -1.25 (4 ft).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r13J-QNiPlQ&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaKaLwvIOCg&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elAYfXxEcnQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYH0DVtjc78&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuZnnI-rV0k
Click to expand...

Wow, thanks for that!

How lovely to see such relaxed and comfortable horses ridden in such simple tack - not even a flash noseband to be seen!

And how nice to see riders sitting quietly and letting the horses get on with it, rather than hooking and pushing.

Hard to believe that this is the same country that does such awful things to Tennessee walking horses.
 
DRSsporthorses said:
Its really all point of view. Granted some people's point of view is that a hunter is only useful if it works in the field. Fine. Just that the focus in the US is not about the field, its about the show ring. People can think whatever way they like about it, but the focus is different. That's just how it is. Bad, good, indifferent...doesn't matter.
Click to expand...

Going by the You Tube videos, I can see why my Huntsman friend doesn't like them to hunt hounds from. There's no substance (other than condition) to them and they don't 'get on' or seem to have a brain which a person hunting or whipping in to hounds must have in their horses, they all seem too 'programmed'.
Hunt horses are their tools for the job, nothing more, nothing less as those in the clips, while pretty, aren't workmanlike enough to do his job. It's the one thing he misses more than anything, some decent hunt horses while the rest of the job and the people, are absolutely fine and he enjoys his job. He is working on the ones he's got and some are improving; it just takes a lot of time and effort as it's not natural to them.
 
Why oh why would you want something that goes like that?? As for the quote about not being tied down/ noseband it has a standing martingale! Not that it has a purpose. So many americans ride like that and have their horse like that It scares me!

Sorry but I don't like the vidoes one bit! Sarah.
 
Well I'm not trying to convince anyone what is suitable for the hunt fields vs. what is suitable for the American hunters. I don't care one way or the other, I'm only explaining what the differences are. The whole topic arose from the comments regarding selling happy hackers to the US, so let's not confuse the discussion with what people agree with or don't agree with.

The simple truth is hunters in the US are different because the focus and the goals are different. There are field hunters for sure, but that accounts for maybe 1% of the hunters in the US, so the issue was: don't look to the US to sell your happy hunters because you won't find the market to be so great for them.

The suitability isn't the question either. The question is what can somebody's kid get on, ride and be safe on, and 99% of those kids aren't going into the field in America. So suitability is based upon need for which people would be buying. Again, the focus is different hence the difference in what people purchase.

You may believe the horses are 'programmed' or have no brains. That is not the case. They are 'schooled' on the flat extensively...as in 'training.' For every one well-schooled horse on the flat I can find in Ireland, I can show you 20 that aren't. To be honest it's not worth my while or worthwhile to the discussion to get into brains, training or the amount of flatwork the horses have had to get them to where they are because that is an entirely different thread altogether.

Substance is a whole topic unto itself. Horses can have substance and be refined. Horses can also have substance and lack quality and refinement. Horses can also be light and lack refinement. This topic is for another thread and I'm sure would open and entirely new can of worms. Let's leave that topic for another day.

As for the standing martingales, they are standard attire. Like it, don't like it...it is what it is. I would ask any of you who are saying that these horses head's are tied down to go back and view the videos much more closely. You will find they are in no way tied down. They in fact are quite loose. A correctly adjusted standing martingale can loop all the way up to the horse's chin with your hand when you push it up while the horse is standing still.
Running martingales are forbidden in American hunters, as are flash nosebands. Plain cavesons only.

People were asking what American hunters were and I provided videos of some of the best. The second video, of the grey horse Rumba is about as good as you get. Does anyone really think that horse looks unhappy with his job? Like him or not...the horse sold for close to a million dollars. Are you going to venture out in the field with a million dollar horse? He has his purpose, is very happy doing it, and does it well. He suits his purpose. Rumba is the type of horse people are looking for in America. Let me point out something about the way the horse moves: go back and look at the horse trotting and the length of the stride with the amount of suspension in the gait. Same at the canter...he covers the ground effortlessly. Those are some of the reasons the horse is so valuable. That is why American buyers go to Europe for hunters, because the continental horses provide the suspension in the gaits that the Irish draught does not. Europe is breeding those type of horses. They have the gaits, the suspension, the style, and the type to suit the market.

Simsar: your horses are very nice, no question. Are they suitable for the American hunters...not sure without seeing them in the flesh. The first grey is quite nice, but again, I have to see it move to give you an honest opinion. I would have to see the younger horse at an older stage to give a idea if he would suit the market.

Once again, I don't care one way or the other and I'm not out to convince anyone the American hunters are better than the UK/Irish ones. Like I said in the original post: US hunters are unique to America. That is why there is little market for the 'happy hackers' there.

Ballyshan: I found your horse on USEF. I can tell you whatever you would like to know. Just PM me when you have a chance with your questions. Looks like he is doing pretty well should be proud of him!
 
Simsar said:
DRS the second video (grey horse) looks and goes very similar to a Working Hunter my Mrs bred 10 years ago who was out of a TB mare by an ID stallion, I see what you mean about them being refined but you can get an ID/TB like that, I was just pointing out that when referring to the BRF stud and there stallions, they would cross well to make your hunter types. I understand what you are saying about the market in the USA but just trying to stick with my theory about not HAVING to use continental breeds. :D

This is the ID/TB who I referred to above, I will try and find a pic of him moving
Pilot6.jpg


img071.jpg
Click to expand...

Oh I have to say this is a LOVELY looking horse !! I hope my baby turns out like this - RID to a ConnX TB mare in my opinion it doesn't get much better.

Amazing thread by the way - this has clearly evoked some brilliant discussion.
 
no nothing about hunting so going back to eothain's post you talk about top young sires like mickey finn and cara touche.what about luidam I know he is not that young and correct me if i am wrong but he sounds very promising
 
I'm a big Luidam fan. I'm tossing a coin between him and Ars Vivendi for my Duca Di Busted mare next year. I'd use one of them this year but I'm going to use Ireland's officially most under rated sire: Puissance.
I've wanted to use Luidam since August 6th 2004. He has some nice horses jumping already like Luikka and Foxglen Cruise Control so hopefully he'll transmit that to our horses too.

I know he was hobdayed as a young horse, but I can close one eye to that. Why? ... August 6th 2004, that's why!
 
Eothain said:
These Grange Bouncer types have nothing to contribute to Irish breeding, draught or sport horse. Thats a simple fact. We have had no stallions other than Cruising and Touchdown capable of holding their as sires and competitors. Good sires like Errigal Flight and Puissance have no stallion sons, which is a crime. Stallions like Coevers Diamond Boy and Clover Brigade have been slightly disappointing in terms of the number of good horses they've sired.
Click to expand...

You left out "to your standards"....I would not like to see you in the same room as Grange Bouncer’s owner Jack but if there is one thing that you would hopefully walk away with would be the word respect. I guess one does not learn everything in seminars and books.... Grange Bouncer will have his largest numbers this year on the ground of competing four year olds and the same next year with some in the US. The next several years will be the best way to judge him and his prodigy if you seem so fit AND able to do so. ;)

My husband on Grange Bouncer with his father Jack on Killinick Rebel half brother to Grange Bouncer
bouncer%20and%20Rebel.jpg
 
DKL said:
You left out "to your standards"....I would not like to see you in the same room as Grange Bouncer’s owner Jack but if there is one thing that you would hopefully walk away with would be the word respect. I guess one does not learn everything in seminars and books.... Grange Bouncer will have his largest numbers this year on the ground of competing four year olds and the same next year with some in the US. The next several years will be the best way to judge him and his prodigy if you seem so fit AND able to do so. ;)

My husband on Grange Bouncer with his father Jack on Killinick Rebel half brother to Grange Bouncer
Click to expand...

You are absolutely right. At the start of this entire thread, I may have been overly negative and abrasive towards some horses in some peoople's eyes. I can see how you'd think that but, I can assure you, I wasn't knocking the horse, I wasn't putting him down or anything of the sort. I merely said, that I don't honestly think these are the horses that will produce Olympic standard showjumpers.
Now, there's not going to be a row here but I will say this, I respect everybody in this business who have been successful in finding their place in the market, so let's not hypothesize about me learning the word respect, because it's already there. I don't know how much of this you've read but if you had held your comment for a while, you would have seen me say how I feel that to their credit, Huntingfield Rebel and Grange Bouncer are among the best the Irish Draught breed have at the moment.
Read my other comments. You'll see how I think they have their place and how the horses that people want for everyday leisure riding will probably be sired by these horses.

When you've read all that I had to say, you can come back and tell me if I'm such a bad fella with a lack of respect. Judge me then, you seem fit and willing to do so.
 
Eothain said:
You are absolutely right. Thank you kind sire. At the start of this entire thread, I may have been overly negative and abrasive towards some horses in some peoople's eyes. I can see how you'd think that but, I can assure you, I wasn't knocking the horse, I wasn't putting him down or anything of the sort. I merely said, that I don't honestly think these are the horses that will produce Olympic standard showjumpers. Depends on who is riding them...
Now, there's not going to be a row here but I will say this, I respect everybody in this business who have been successful in finding their place in the market, so let's not hypothesize about me learning the word respect, because it's already there. I don't know how much of this you've read but if you had held your comment for a while, you would have seen me say how I feel that to their credit, Huntingfield Rebel and Grange Bouncer are among the best the Irish Draught breed have at the moment. No row from me as I enjoyed the thread and I have read it in it's entirety thus my comments as respect is earned and not preached. While I do hear what you are trying to convery in this discussion it should not be done by knocking the breeder.... never mind the horse. Read my other comments. You'll see how I think they have their place and how the horses that people want for everyday leisure riding will probably be sired by these horses.

When you've read all that I had to say, you can come back and tell me if I'm such a bad fella with a lack of respect. Judge me then, you seem fit and willing to do so.
Click to expand...
No negativity from me but I am sure folks will love to hear that eventing or showjumping is considering "leisure riding"...what is a jaunt in the woods called then to you....? :p
 
When did I call showjumping or eventing, lesiure riding? If you mean people who go to shows to jump around and have the craic at local shows and the like then in my mind, they are the grass roots. The leisure market. The people who don't need horses giving them hassle because they've to go to work the next day etc. The horses jumping around 1.30s and 1.40s however are a different kettle of fish.

I'm a showjumper myself and know difficult it is to find good horses. Hell, two of my three best horses were pulled off a lorry heading to the factory. I took a major gamble on them but had I not and had it not paid off, then only god knows what kind of yak I'd be trying to build a career off!

What do I consider a jaunt in the woods? ... A waste of time!!! Again, not for me!

If I'm knocking breeders, it's because I feel they have got to stand up and be accountable for their decisions. When things began to turn downhill for Irish breeding, people blamed the warmbloods coming in to the coountry. From what I've gathered talking to different people, things were heading downhill before the foreign stallions ever came to play with our mares.

And Rebel Mountain, I don't mind what I get by him. I'd prefer a colt to retain entire because for a horse of his calibre who has had horses compete at 4* level eventing and 5* level showjumping to not have a stallion son or ten is an absolute disgrace.

I know that Hutchinsons have a 4 year old stallion by him who is a full brother to the mare Lee Ann who jumped 1.40m in Switzerland before coming back here to jump. He's Puissance x Kings Servant. My mare is Duca Di Busted x Laughton's Flight, and among other things, finished top of her group when she was assessed as a premier mare, so hopefully Puissance should cross well with her.
 
Thank you Simsar for the warm welcome.

Eothain I understand now your leisure market comment. We are speaking different languages but I basically 1) didn't agree with you and 2) didn't care for your approach. I respect what you think the way future breeding should go as everyone is entitled to an opinion. I commend you for pulling two horses off a lorry heading to the factory. I also 100% agree with your statement “If I'm knocking breeders, it's because I feel they have got to stand up and be accountable for their decisions” but though I hold it in the light of the overbreeding/population problem seen now all over the world…especially in the US (I am in the US). There is a tremendous amount of poor quality breeding over here but I would never hold the Grange Bouncer line in this category. Again I took offense to the Grange Bouncer b/c he has produced many top quality animals of all disciplines and I as some said already here was/is one of the only RID to compete at the upper levels.
 
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