Happy Days For ISH Breeders

Pat,

That is hilarious! The two broods I have who have some DB/WB call it what you will are thick even with diluted blood! One I would describe as special needs, she is oblivious to everything. My others are TB or trad Irish and they are sharp and clever.

However, I will make an exception for the French horses (SF) they are clever and handy and retain a bit of the fifth leg and gutsy attitude. Then the French are quite clever using trotters, Anglo Arabs and TBs all of which have smarts.

There are certain warmbloods creeping into hunter breeding Limmerick (incredible number of progeny winning hunter youngstock at Dublin), Into The West, Lux Z, Ricardo Z and a few others with letters on the end!

Glad you enjoyed the debate - we are still waiting for Eothain to come back to the table!
 
htobago
Thats OK, glad you are enjoying it, it's nice when you get a proper debate on here not just bitching. I did see your other thread but like you said I didn't really get where you were coming from.:D
 
My warmbloods are anything but dumb, maybe thats the Trakehner blood I choose. Some blood lines say the R and D lines are know for their tractable and ridable temperments so maybe that is where they are considered dumb.
 
It is obvious that the dumblood gene is dominent to the clever Irish Draught gene, this is the problem. I have the cleverest RID mare, she knows things, but her three year old filly by a warblood is irretrievably stupid. I concerned for her. Someone mentioned the stallion Into the West earlier. I know a knowledgable man who hates warmbloods with a vengence, however he says Into The West makes beautiful horses.
 
Sadly Into the West is now deceased. He did throw excellent stock. I bred the very last colt foal from him out of a Captain Clover mare. He is doing well with his current people.
 
I hear Jack of Diamonds really stamps his stock. A friend of mine seen him last year but didn't like him. Then she seen his young stock at a show and said they're really nice. He has nice breeding with Battleburn and menelex appearing?
 
Simsar said:
htobago
Thats OK, glad you are enjoying it, it's nice when you get a proper debate on here not just bitching. I did see your other thread but like you said I didn't really get where you were coming from.:D
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I was thinking the same thing - how lovely to see a proper, intelligent, calm and courteous debate! This thread is a textbook example of how Internet forum debates should be conducted - well, apart from my daft political analogies, that is!

Sorry about that other thread - I really must have phrased the questions very awkwardly - sometimes it must be hard to believe that I actually make a living from writing!
 
I have just been looking on here http://www.horsesportireland.ie/_fileupload/StallionBook2009ISHStallions.pdf
and after looking at most of the traditional ISH's on here I think that perhaps if they were used a little more they would certainly be holding there own against some of the warmblood sires, there are some with great pedigrees that just don't seem to have had many mares for the amount of years they have been standing!! Roundabout again????????
 
Irishlife said:
Pat,

That is hilarious! The two broods I have who have some DB/WB call it what you will are thick even with diluted blood! One I would describe as special needs, she is oblivious to everything. My others are TB or trad Irish and they are sharp and clever.

However, I will make an exception for the French horses (SF) they are clever and handy and retain a bit of the fifth leg and gutsy attitude. Then the French are quite clever using trotters, Anglo Arabs and TBs all of which have smarts.

Glad you enjoyed the debate - we are still waiting for Eothain to come back to the table!
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Even my blacksmith calls them dumb blondes too, lol!
I'll give you that about the French ones, they do seem a lot brighter but I don't help them at all, I can't speak any French at all! ;)

Where is Eothain anyway?
 
The problem is the breeders with the best mares are using warmbloods. It would be nice if the breeder would retain one traditionally bred mare to continue breeding. It doesnt really matter about the geldings, they are bred for the market. Cavalier was the first warmblood stallion to really gain the attention of Irish breeders. He was a good horse, there is no doubting this. Maybe, as the gentleman alluded to earlier, it could be that he had some Selle Francias blood? Or maybe he got the best mares when he arrived in Ireland.
 
Re Battleburn reference from grassroots, below are the bloodlines of two of my mares as examples of the type of Irish mares showing how in ISH breeding like Northern Dancer in TBs e.g., there are stallions that very nearly always appear in 5th generation ISH pedigrees somewhere.

Mare 1 - Modern mare with some warmblood.

Sire line; Stormhill Miller TB (GB) et al
Dam line; 1st dam by Furisto (Hann fully approved main ISH studbook)
2nd dam by Laughtons Flight ISH (by King of Diamonds)
3rd dam by Darantus (TB)
4th dam by Battleburn (TB) (sire of Boomerang)

Around 66% TB 25% Hann 9% RID = ISH

Mare 2 - Traditional Irish mare (Grade C SJ)

Sire line; Captain Clover ISH (by Clover Hill)
Dam Line; 1st dam by Easy Lift (TB)
2nd dam Brooklawn Purple AID (by Powerswood Purple et al back to Galty Boy)
3rd dam Silver Run (Breeding Unknown)

So this one is TB and ID blood only

Tried to find an emoticon for bloody confused and better go and ride something.
 
Its is good to use a bit of warmblood for sure. It will had something to your stock. Its just sad to see so much of it. The Germans didnt like ladykiller when he first arrived in Germany, where would they be without him? He produced great stallions off the German mares he covered. Maybe we should be looking to this in Ireland. At least we would have WB/ISH stallions out of Irish marelines. Irco Mena is a good examlpe of this. Maybe Royal Concorde could be the next Irco Mena?
 
Really hoping Eothain comes back to play, i don't want to start answering my own questions:o
One more question then i will shut up as I am probably getting boring now and there is already LOADS to answer. Eothain if you think Cruising is the best horse ever (which I am not denying) why are you using warmbloods, why not try to breed something along the same lines to emulate him and pay homage to his breeding and talent?
OK so that was more than one question but that's it now I promise.:D
 
MFH9 said:
I remember dumbloods being referred to as such when they first started coming over here and I've not met any since that would make me change my mind; pretty? yes, athletic? yes, thick as two short planks? YES!

Bread and Butter breeders, be proud of your heritage, don't throw it away on a quick fix.
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I haven't managed to get to the end of this infinitely interesting thread without feeling compelled to say something. As a French hobby breeder, living in England and mostly crossing young German warmblood stallions with my very wonderful "bread & butter" and impeccably bred ISH mare (Rich Rebel xx X Clover Hill X Legaun Prince), who will hop over the 5' fence, when rugged up and full of foal if she feels the grass is greener... who would have been an absoilute top class show jumper without that accident... who is waaaayyy too sharp for her own good...
Anyway a couple of comments:
Preserving a breed is all well and good if inbreeding doesn't catch up with you: I agree with Eothain whole heartedly: bring some quality from abroad - Irish breeding some time ago reached that point where the genepool was so shallow, it just stopped functionning - that's the payback of too much success. Same thing happened to French breeding about 25-30 years ago. The SF was so inbred that every other horse bred, no matter how well bred, had navicular disease and was only good to throw away by the time they were 12 years old (that's the lucky ones!). Then came Japeloup de Luze (remember him? 15hh little bum high black thing 50% French Trotter 50% TB), won the Seoul individual in SJ, gave Milton a run for his money! Then French breeders had an epiphany! Deepen the genepool, bring in other breeds to improve the SF (some TB of course, but also French Trotters and some European Warmbloods) and they were back at the top of their game, whilst still preserving a "type" to the SF. It is inbreeding that makes horses stupid and accentuates poor conformation - add a little foreign blood and suddenly the best of both lines come together in the new generation - so you get the pretty athletic uphill of the dumblood, with the clever huge heart and incredible jumping ability of the ISH - best of both worlds... What's wrong with that?
And by the way, I am so glad there is so much enthusiasm and passion here!
 
GinnieRedwings said:
I haven't managed to get to the end of this infinitely interesting thread without feeling compelled to say something. As a French hobby breeder, living in England and mostly crossing young German warmblood stallions with my very wonderful "bread & butter" and impeccably bred ISH mare (Rich Rebel xx X Clover Hill X Legaun Prince), who will hop over the 5' fence, when rugged up and full of foal if she feels the grass is greener... who would have been an absoilute top class show jumper without that accident... who is waaaayyy too sharp for her own good...
Anyway a couple of comments:
Preserving a breed is all well and good if inbreeding doesn't catch up with you: I agree with Eothain whole heartedly: bring some quality from abroad - Irish breeding some time ago reached that point where the genepool was so shallow, it just stopped functionning - that's the payback of too much success. Same thing happened to French breeding about 25-30 years ago. The SF was so inbred that every other horse bred, no matter how well bred, had navicular disease and was only good to throw away by the time they were 12 years old (that's the lucky ones!). Then came Japeloup de Luze (remember him? 15hh little bum high black thing 50% French Trotter 50% TB), won the Seoul individual in SJ, gave Milton a run for his money! Then French breeders had an epiphany! Deepen the genepool, bring in other breeds to improve the SF (some TB of course, but also French Trotters and some European Warmbloods) and they were back at the top of their game, whilst still preserving a "type" to the SF. It is inbreeding that makes horses stupid and accentuates poor conformation - add a little foreign blood and suddenly the best of both lines come together in the new generation - so you get the pretty athletic uphill of the dumblood, with the clever huge heart and incredible jumping ability of the ISH - best of both worlds... What's wrong with that?
And by the way, I am so glad there is so much enthusiasm and passion here!
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I see your point and as I said earlier I think that it was a very bad idea to close the studbook.

I don't agree with adding warmblood to the mix. I don't agree that by crossing the two you only get the best of both breeds it is not only inbreeding that accentuates poor conformation it is also indiscriminate breeding, by crossing two different breeds you are not fixing anything into the future stock as there is more of a mix to get throw backs from and that is to the detrement of both breeds.

It has been proven time and again that a cross of TB or Connie in the ID pedigree adds athleticism without losing the bone, type or temperament. If the studbook were to 're-open' I would hope you would quite quickly find that the genepool would increase quite considerably.

IMHO the main reason that the genepool became so shallow was because breeders stopped looking for stallions that suited there mares and that would improve there stock and all followed the same fashionable trends of Pride of Shaunlara, King of Diamonds and Clover Hill and yes like you say we are now paying through the teeth for there success. :)
 
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Ok, here we go. I'm dreading starting again! Where to start ... ...

In reference to modern draught breeding; I think that trying to have Draughts as a purebred has utterly blown up in peoples faces. They should be bred to type. A friend of ours owns one of the best ID mares I've ever seen, problem is she's by a thoroughbred!!! She's by Market Square, a horse who's half-bred progeny if true to the type should be included in the Draught studbook. I'm not for a second saying that they should end up with Arabian dish faces but the old coarse and rugged type has no place in laying the foundation for modern sports breeding. Look at Huntingfield Rebel, Grange Bouncer and co. They're hailed as out cross horses to the King himself and Clover Hill but what of relevance are they producing? Nothing! They very much still have a place as stallions but I'll get to that in a minute. Huntingfield Rebel covered more mares in 2007 than other stallion. We're going to be flooded with his stock. He's 20 years old and hasn't produced anything of significance yet, he won't now. Does anyone actually think that he is going to have stock at the 2020 Olympics? In all honesty, it's not likely.
The ID needs another Flagmount King or Ginger Dick. They got jumpers, infact Flagmount King is the only ID sire to have progeny jumping in the Spring Grand Prix league this year. The ID needs to contribute something. The foundation of all our breeding needs to improve as the rivals improve! This is much shorter than what I said last night, partially because I forgot what I said!!!

*highlight, right click, copy*

Yes, my mares do have a proportion of Draught blood. I've one mare by Classic Vision in foal to the Saddlers Wells horse Well Chosen. This year she goes to Watermill Swatch. I've an Ojasper mare who's dam is by Flagmount King and a Musical Pursuit mare who is out of a Corran Ginger mare. Lets assess those Draught Stallions and see why I've ok-ed them!

Classic Vision, international showjumper, is by Ginger Dick who sired international jumpers like Atlantic Watt and Flash La Silla. Classic Vision's dam Lady Glen produced the horse Midnight Call with whom Edward Doyle competed in several Puissance classes on, I think he either placed or won the Puissance in Dublin. Lady Glen is by Flagmount Diamond who is a full brother to Flagmount King. So the draught in my mares pedigrees are what I called useful draughts. Corran Ginger is also a son of Ginger Dick.

People then go and bring up the use of thoroughbreds. What thoroughbreds? Name me the thoroughbred sires of jumpers? Master Imp is dead! The problem is that with the Irish racing industry becoming the best in the world, the thoroughbred changed. The old big rangey horse is dead and buried. Our National Hunt stallions are now flat-stayer stallions. The Horse Board introduced the Elite Thoroughbred Scheme for stallions with a timeform rating of 110+ to get automatic approval. It's far from perfect, but it has thrown us one stallion whom is a diamond in the rough. I'm pretty sure that only myself and tinytrigger have heard of him. Musical Pursuit. He is a stallion to watch out for. His stock are tough and hardy but by god can they jump. My mare is a full sister to a horse called Esker Encore, who's rider has tipped him to be a star of the future, he said as a 5 year old that he was the best young horse he ever had.
The fact is that the thoroughbreds of today are a far cry from the thoroughbreds of yesteryear who put us on the map. Our blood must come now from the Continent. France in particular. What we must do is use their horses to add the blood we need to our mare herd and get the blood stallions we need going forward! I plan on crossing my Classic Vision mare with Ephebe For Ever next year. My Musical Pursuit mare with Cabdula Du Tillard or Dollar Du Murier next year and the other the year after. I'm a fecker for planning years in advance.

Ephebe For Ever, Jaguar Mail, Baltimore, Tinarana's Inspector and a horse like Desir Du Chateau will give Irish breeders the blood they need going forward to create new lines. Grasshorse mentioned Royal Concorde, if he doesn't become a prolific sire of eventers, I'll be stunned!!!!!!!

You see, I'm going to be crossing my mares to these superstar foreign horses with the sole hope of getting fillies that can be crossed back to the young Irish stallions to create again new lines. Our breeding has become stagnant and with nice stallions out there like Ringfort Cruise, Cruisings MF, Cara Touche and Samgemjee we need to not be continuing to offer them mares with tired old pedigrees. Our showjumpers need foreign blood its that simple. If they didn't, then our current batch of stallions would have played a more significant role in jumping breeding.

Where are the sons of Errigal Flight, Laughtons Flight, Puissance, Clover Brigade, Coevers Diamond Boy, Clover Echo? These horses have served us well over the years, some better than others, but no sons have been brought forward to continue their line. Thats a crying shame. If we lose these, we lose more than a little bit of our backbone. Cruising has been our ambassador from a relatively small pool of foals of only 1,200 which for a horse of his age isn't a lot but these horses have been his wingmen. True, they might have not produced as much as we would like but their record is not to be sniffed at. So where are their sons? Over the coming few years, I'll be looking in to buying some colt foals of theirs with the plan to retain them as stallions, get them approved and lease them to studs in Ireland, all the time while crossing my current mares to foreign horses to get fillies. Its a long, long, long term process but if it creates new, exciting breeding lines that puts us back in the hunt, then happy days!

So, finally, the bread and butter horses. Where to for them? Simple really.
When I take over the job as Breeding Manager with HSI, I will do as the Dutch did and separate the studbook with distinct breeding policies for Showjumpers, Eventers and Riding Horses. Horses like Grange Bouncer and Huntingfield Rebel would still have their place then to breed those riding horses that everyone, except me apparently, loves! If a breeder managed to create a superstar showjumper using traditional means then fair play to him but the chances of doing so are very very slim. I mean Cruisings MF has a pedigree filled with proper Irish performance sires. Cruising, Sky Boy, Diamond Serpent and Ozymandias have all provided their fair share of good horses so its really no surprise that Micky Finn should be excelling in the sport.

Last paragraph, I promise!!!

I have a yearling filly by Clover Flush out my Duca Di Busted mare. She'll never be ridden because a horse broke out to her last year and broke her leg but thankfully she healed and is now headed for the breeding barn much earlier than expected. I'm going to try to keep her for breeding strictly traditional horses from. There will be exceptions of course for a horse like Womanizer but for the most part, it'll be the likes of Cruisings MF, Ringfort Cruise and Cara Touche that she'll be slutting it up with.
Her mother is like my crown jewel. Along with the Musical Pursuit mare, they are the centrepieces of my mare herd. This year she's going to Puissance and next year, she'll be ai-ed to Cumano, my 2nd favourite horse off all time, then Cornet Obolensky in 2012 if all goes according to plan. There I go making distant plans again!

This is vastly different to what got deleted the other night but I think it still gets across most of what I'm trying to say. I may have to clarify some of what I said. If I remember more of what got deleted, I'll include it in a future post which hopefully won't be so long!

And Simsar, what kind of time is half five on a thursday evening to go to the pub?
 
Eothain said:
Ok, here we go. I'm dreading starting again! Where to start ... ...
In reference to modern draught breeding; I think that trying to have Draughts as a purebred has utterly blown up in peoples faces. They should be bred to type. A friend of ours owns one of the best ID mares I've ever seen, problem is she's by a thoroughbred!!! She's by Market Square, a horse who's half-bred progeny if true to the type should be included in the Draught studbook. I'm not for a second saying that they should end up with Arabian dish faces but the old coarse and rugged type has no place in laying the foundation for modern sports breedingBut the problem is they do have a role to play in todays modern sports horses, if you didn't have theses types you would not have your crosses in the first place, whether they are 7/8,3/4,1/2 or 1/4 breds the TB added the quality to the traditional types and then you can breed from there to produce your KOD's and CH's which in turn produce sports horses of more quality.. Look at Huntingfield Rebel, Grange Bouncer and co. They're hailed as out cross horses to the King himself and Clover Hill but what of relevance are they producing? Nothing! They very much still have a place as stallions but I'll get to that in a minute. Huntingfield Rebel covered more mares in 2007 than other stallion. We're going to be flooded with his stock. He's 20 years old and hasn't produced anything of significance yet, he won't now. Does anyone actually think that he is going to have stock at the 2020 Olympics? In all honesty, it's not likely.
The ID needs another Flagmount King or Ginger Dick. They got jumpers, infact Flagmount King is the only ID sire to have progeny jumping in the Spring Grand Prix league this year. The ID needs to contribute something. The foundation of all our breeding needs to improve as the rivals improve! This is much shorter than what I said last night, partially because I forgot what I said!!!The thing is that there are not the old boys who know the bloodlines and what crosses go well anymore, and those that are still left are ignored and told they are living in the dark ages!

*highlight, right click, copy*

Yes, my mares do have a proportion of Draught blood. I've one mare by Classic Vision in foal to the Saddlers Wells horse Well Chosen. This year she goes to Watermill Swatch. I've an Ojasper mare who's dam is by Flagmount King and a Musical Pursuit mare who is out of a Corran Ginger mare. Lets assess those Draught Stallions and see why I've ok-ed them!

Classic Vision, international showjumper, is by Ginger Dick who sired international jumpers like Atlantic Watt and Flash La Silla. Classic Vision's dam Lady Glen produced the horse Midnight Call with whom Edward Doyle competed in several Puissance classes on, I think he either placed or won the Puissance in Dublin. Lady Glen is by Flagmount Diamond who is a full brother to Flagmount King. So the draught in my mares pedigrees are what I called useful draughts. Corran Ginger is also a son of Ginger Dick.

People then go and bring up the use of thoroughbreds. What thoroughbreds? Name me the thoroughbred sires of jumpers? Master Imp is dead! The problem is that with the Irish racing industry becoming the best in the world, the thoroughbred changed. The old big rangey horse is dead and buried. Our National Hunt stallions are now flat-stayer stallions. The Horse Board introduced the Elite Thoroughbred Scheme for stallions with a timeform rating of 110+ to get automatic approval. It's far from perfect, but it has thrown us one stallion whom is a diamond in the rough. I'm pretty sure that only myself and tinytrigger have heard of him. Musical Pursuit. He is a stallion to watch out for. His stock are tough and hardy but by god can they jump. My mare is a full sister to a horse called Esker Encore, who's rider has tipped him to be a star of the future, he said as a 5 year old that he was the best young horse he ever had.
The fact is that the thoroughbreds of today are a far cry from the thoroughbreds of yesteryear who put us on the map. Our blood must come now from the Continent. France in particular. What we must do is use their horses to add the blood we need to our mare herd and get the blood stallions we need going forward! I plan on crossing my Classic Vision mare with Ephebe For Ever next year. My Musical Pursuit mare with Cabdula Du Tillard or Dollar Du Murier next year and the other the year after. I'm a fecker for planning years in advance. Some fab pedigrees minus the foreigners;)

Ephebe For Ever, Jaguar Mail, Baltimore, Tinarana's Inspector and a horse like Desir Du Chateau will give Irish breeders the blood they need going forward to create new lines. Grasshorse mentioned Royal Concorde, if he doesn't become a prolific sire of eventers, I'll be stunned!!!!!!!

You see, I'm going to be crossing my mares to these superstar foreign horses with the sole hope of getting fillies that can be crossed back to the young Irish stallions to create again new lines. Our breeding has become stagnant and with nice stallions out there like Ringfort Cruise, Cruisings MF, Cara Touche and Samgemjee we need to not be continuing to offer them mares with tired old pedigrees. Our showjumpers need foreign blood its that simple. If they didn't, then our current batch of stallions would have played a more significant role in jumping breeding.As i said earlier would those ID sport horses stallions have had a better chance of sireing good stock if people didn't follow fashions in breeding in the first place, first KOD,CH and POS and now warmblood?????

Where are the sons of Errigal Flight, Laughtons Flight, Puissance, Clover Brigade, Coevers Diamond Boy, Clover Echo? These horses have served us well over the years, some better than others, but no sons have been brought forward to continue their line. Thats a crying shame. If we lose these, we lose more than a little bit of our backboneNail and head!. Cruising has been our ambassador from a relatively small pool of foals of only 1,200 which for a horse of his age isn't a lot but these horses have been his wingmen. True, they might have not produced as much as we would like but their record is not to be sniffed at. So where are their sons? Over the coming few years, I'll be looking in to buying some colt foals of theirs with the plan to retain them as stallions, get them approved and lease them to studs in IrelandDo you mean traditional ISH's, all the time while crossing my current mares to foreign horses to get fillies. Its a long, long, long term process but if it creates new, exciting breeding lines that puts us back in the hunt, then happy days!

So, finally, the bread and butter horses. Where to for them? Simple really.
When I take over the job as Breeding Manager with HSI Drive, determination and delusions of gandure I like it!!:), I will do as the Dutch did and separate the studbook with distinct breeding policies for Showjumpers, Eventers and Riding Horses. Horses like Grange Bouncer and Huntingfield Rebel would still have their place then to breed those riding horses that everyone, except me apparently, loves! If a breeder managed to create a superstar showjumper using traditional means then fair play to him but the chances of doing so are very very slim. I mean Cruisings MF has a pedigree filled with proper Irish performance sires. Cruising, Sky Boy, Diamond Serpent and Ozymandias have all provided their fair share of good horses so its really no surprise that Micky Finn should be excelling in the sportIt is not a case of loveing b&b horses it is a case that when breeding you have to think of ALL eventualities and if a traditionally bred ISH doesn't make it onto the international stage with its temp and soundness of mind and body it can still go on to do a job, where many of the warmblood crosses can't. Why not be trying to breed the next Cruising, Jumbo, Crusings MF or Diamond Serpent along similar lines to how they are bred and then it would truely be a winning situation for Irish breeding without doing it of the back of foreign stud books? .

Last paragraph, I promise!!!

I have a yearling filly by Clover Flush out my Duca Di Busted mare. She'll never be ridden because a horse broke out to her last year and broke her leg but thankfully she healed and is now headed for the breeding barn much earlier than expected. I'm going to try to keep her for breeding strictly traditional horses from. There will be exceptions of course for a horse like Womanizer but for the most part, it'll be the likes of Cruisings MF, Ringfort Cruise and Cara Touche that she'll be slutting it up with.
Her mother is like my crown jewel. Along with the Musical Pursuit mare, they are the centrepieces of my mare herd. This year she's going to Puissance and next year, she'll be ai-ed to Cumano, my 2nd favourite horse off all time, then Cornet Obolensky in 2012 if all goes according to plan. There I go making distant plans again!

This is vastly different to what got deleted the other night but I think it still gets across most of what I'm trying to say. I may have to clarify some of what I said. If I remember more of what got deleted, I'll include it in a future post which hopefully won't be so long!

Great debate thanks for coming back!

And Simsar, what kind of time is half five on a thursday evening to go to the pub?It's the best time 5 1/2 hours till closing,:D plenty of time to drink!
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Simon Simsar Stud:)
 
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I don't think they would have sired better class with out the foreigners. When you look at videos on youtube of the old Irish horses, it looked more like sheer heart rather than out standing talent that got them around. They were quite unorthadox and cobby. When you watch Rockbarton or Heather Honey or Heather Blaze, you'd think to your self, how in the name of God did they manage to jump around? The problem with the foreigners that came in originally was that they simply weren't good enough. Cavalier, Furisto and a couple of others had a lot to offer but they were hampered by some other yakks that came in and the stigma is still there.
As for the Draught fellas, they are still in the dark ages. Anything they have to offer has been lost in a sea of bitterness to advances in modern sport. The fences are bigger, wider, lighter and cups shallower. In 1975 the courses had no such thing as a related distance or dog leg. The horses could gallop along, fire itself in the air and once they didn't hit the fence on the way up. They wouldn't knock it on the way down. Look at the videos of the old jumpers and listen to them rub off every fence. They'd be eaten alive by Peppermill and Co today. We need the sharpness of those foreigners to quicken the horses and get them up in the air.
Yes, I do mean it'll be traditional ISH colts I'll be looking for. I've not given up on them yet.
One last thing, the unsuccessful foreign horses still have the temperament to go and do other things outside of competition. Look at the sheer numbers of horses exported to America for equitation classes. What do the young Germans learn to ride on? Those 'thick' foreign horses are not as thick as their reputation claims! There are of course exceptions but for the most part ...
 
................ having just ventured into the world of the ISH (have bought youngster with KOD/CH lines) I am finding this thread fascinating as Ive struggled to get my head round some of the breeding and types - first lesson being that an ID can be 1/2 tb! I still dont feel as if i really know an awful lot about it, but i am proud to have a horse who is through and through traditional ISH;)
 
Eothain, you make some very good points and it seems to me that you *SHOULD* be employed to bash some sense into the HSI!!!!

:D.

The split seems to be between those who want the ISH to be an elite sports horse, and those who want them to be good allrounders for the leisure market. This is a real dichotomy in horse breeding in Britain and Ireland, but not one the Europeans seem to struggle with. Again I point to the Dutch. They breed top sports horses and very good amateur's horses alike. Again, good conformation, trainability, athleticism and soundness are required no matter what job the horse will end up doing.
 
I do actually agree with the sentiment behind your thoughts but not the way of getting there, I may well be living in the dark ages but, I believe that with the right mix of TB & ID/ISH blood you can still breed international standard horses, it's just a case of producing them to that standard.

Glad to hear that you haven't completely given up on the traditional ISH, I was fearing that us British would be be the only ones using them soon.:)

I can only speak from experience with regards to the warmbloods and amateurs, I have previously worked with numerous warmbloods who had been bought on there breeding, looks and WOW factor but the amateur owners couldn't ride one side of them. Maybe that says more for the amateur riders in Europe than here!!:rolleyes:

I think that a lot of the studbooks here and in Ireland need a shake up, shall we volunteer Eothain??:D
 
Simsar said:
I do actually agree with the sentiment behind your thoughts but not the way of getting there, I may well be living in the dark ages but, I believe that with the right mix of TB & ID/ISH blood you can still breed international standard horses, it's just a case of producing them to that standard.

Glad to hear that you haven't completely given up on the traditional ISH, I was fearing that us British would be be the only ones using them soon.:)

I can only speak from experience with regards to the warmbloods and amateurs, I have previously worked with numerous warmbloods who had been bought on there breeding, looks and WOW factor but the amateur owners couldn't ride one side of them. Maybe that says more for the amateur riders in Europe than here!!:rolleyes:

I think that a lot of the studbooks here and in Ireland need a shake up, shall we volunteer Eothain??:D
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Oooh, please do!!!! And what would your shake-up of the UK studbooks be, simsar? We know Eothain's ideas for the Irish ones ......
 
By the sounds of it Eothian would have a little bit of every breed, where as my first policy would be to get rid of all Cobs, Coloureds, Arabs and Warmbloods:D;):rolleyes:
 
This is a really interesting debate, and many thanks to simsar and eothain for keeping it going, and sharing their knowledge. I have an ISH mare by Able AlbertXX out of a Diamond Lad mare - one of the things that I have heard frequently when I've been over in Ireland is how valued Diamond Lad was a breeder of outstanding broodmares. (And this seems to have been the case with my mare's dam, who, amongst the few foals that she bred, could number several winners in the showring including Advance Party, who did extremely well with Katie Jerram over here.) But its an elderly population now, and I don't hear of others coming in to replace him

eothain, really interesting to be introduced to a new name for me in Musical Pursuit : where does he stand? Any photos available? And, of course, the inevitable question - do you know if he is available just natural cover?
 
Fantastic debate from two very different points of view!!

I understand both sides and I am not discounting the ID, but I do agree with Eothain in many respects of this discussion. I don't believe anyone questions the role of the ID in today's top class eventers, though I do feel there is going to be more and more challenge through a slow chipping away at that dominance by breeds such as the SF and others that are quickly gaining a foothold in the sport. By all means, please continue to breed top-class traditionally-bred horses for this market!

Today's showjumping courses are not those of yesteryear. That is reality. Courses are now extremely difficult tests of both horse and rider, both mentally and physically. Therein lies the conundrum of how the ID fits into the model of a world class showjumping supplier. By tradition, the ID is a big, heavy horse. Granted they have good brains and try their heart out for you and could get a big fence, but their traditional physical characteristics are also what makes it difficult to compete in today's technical sport. The shallow cups, huge wide oxers with no approach, related distances that demand instant impulsion vs. explosive power....yet all with extreme carefulness, quickness, and a horse that can think on the fly are what the sport demands today. These horses require quality in the canter...something I don't see in many IDs. Scope is created by a combination of qualities, not all of which the ID possesses. In short...the sport have evolved beyond what the traditional horses have to offer. Nobody's fault, its just the way the sport has changed over the years. And the old point of view is no longer valid in producing the horse of the future.

Just look at the makeup of the Irish showjumping teams of the past 5 years alone. Just how many traditionally-bred horses are there? I beg you to list them for me? The simple reality is the horses that are most competitive are not traditional, they are dominated by continental breeding....for all the reasons stated above. The foreign studbooks have focused on sport for decades and are reaping the benefits worldwide.

Do I feel that stallions such as Ringfort Cruise (Cruising/Nimmerdor), Royal Concorde (Concorde/KOD), Carmena Z (Carthago/IrcoMena/KOD), Cruisings MF, Clover Flush, the last two closest to traditional of the bunch, and others can play a role in future breeding....YES. But they have to be used correctly. Do I think the ISH can improve as a producer/supplier...YES. But you are at a starting point decades behind that of the continent. You have to know that going in. I do believe it will improve, but it will take years to catch up.
 
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