Happy Days For ISH Breeders

He's a 16 year old British bred thoroughbred. Owned by a friend of ours Frankie Kiernan in Moyvore, not far from Mullingar in Co Westmeath. He was 2nd in the Dewhurst Stakes beaten by a short head. Frankie is the former Huntsman of our hunt and the former Chairman bred his ID mare to him which my father, the current Huntsman bought the progeny of hence why we have stock by him years before any other of his stock come on stream. If you go on my website www.brosnaviewstables.com and go to the breeding section, you'll see the mare I'm breeding from in action. On the horses for sale page you'll see a full brother to her who was shown in Dublin last year. He's natural cover only. I have my Ojasper x Flagmount King x Euphenism mare in foal to him. I will be selling the foal so feel free to buy!!!

The problem I have with continuing to use the traditional tb/id/ish crosses to breed jumpers is that it just hasn't worked recently. Clover Hill was ridiculed by Draught people and not made enough use of. It was the Sports breeders that got the best out of him. We have sport horse sires like Cruise On, Cougar, Carrick Diamond Lad, Ard Black Cat, Captain Clover, Colin Diamond, Coronea Eagle, Diamond Imp Lad, Furisto's Diamond who haven't lived up to expectations. Many of them are getting good eventers and riding horses but for showjumpers they're simply not good. I would put them in to a separate section in the studbook because they have their uses and allow those people who wish to breed top class international jumping horses access to the Cumano's and Couleur Rubin's that we need going forward yo get the fillies we so desperately need to cross back to those traditional stalwarts so we don't lose sight of our roots. I'm not trying to make the ISH just another eouropean Warmblood. We just need an injection of their best to augment our own
 
Please don't get me wrong I am not saying what you are doing is wrong, just trying to understand why you are so willing to give up on the good foundations that your predecessors laid down and jump ship at the first sign of trouble, like you have already said a lot of the warmblood breeds are based on the ISH.
I am also not saying that the more draught types should be out competing against the warmbloods, I am not stupid and I do know there limitations, what I am saying is there are traditional (and by traditional I don't mean heavy, I just mean ID/TB's [that could be 3/4 TB the percentage doesn't matter]) ID SH's out there that are more than capable of holding there own at top level given the same production as the warmblood.
I am not defending the narrow minded people who don't want the breed to move forward, I just think that you can't have one(ISH) without the other(ID).

Just to add I love the look of Cougar but haven't seen any of his stock, but a friend in Wales has the most stunning Colin Diamond mare (she would literally jump the moon if asked) who is possibly a bit on the heavy side for top level jumping but crossed to a TB and I am sure you would get a superstar.

Sorry if this doesn't read well got to go back to work so rushing:D
 
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I wouldn't call it jumping ship. Merely using their weapons against them in the production of showjumpers. Don't worry, I know what you're saying and to be fair, unless you can put your hand on your heart and justify plans, you really should ask yourself what you're doing!!!

As for Cougar, what a beuatiful horse! I would love to, love to, love to use him but I couldn't justify it unless I was looking specifically for an eventer or show horse.
Another thing, where are the sons of Kiltealy Spring and Parkmore Night? These two have some truly outstanding eventing sons, Fernhill Clover Mist, Parkmore Ed, but nothing to continue their lines. We've lost Highland King for eventing breeders lets not lose these two as well or we're truly screwed when looking for eventing sires!

Where's Ballyshan and TomReed? Would love to hear their take at this stage!
 
Stop calling for back-up, they will both get to going on me about warmbloods too:eek: :D

Like you say you only need to justify what you are breeding and why to yourself.

As one of the original posts said though, some nice traditional Irish names please for your stock something we can pronounce!!!
 
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linali said:
you are going to use Cumano!!! Very brave, I would love to use him but to affraid to spend all that cash and get no foal at the end of it :(
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Absolutely! He's my second favourite horse ever and when I breed to Cumano. Regardless of what the foal is, it'll never be sold. I've never been lucky enough to breed to Cruising or even own a horse by him. Have only ridden a couple by him. I hate myself because of that! I'm not going to squander the chance of using Cumano. Hell, my forward planning has even made me name the foal! Cumana for a filly and Cumando for a colt!

And don't worry Simsar, I'll make sure that whatever the colt is, that it's a 1970s special ;););) What about Cavalier, is he excluded too?
 
I am here Eothain.All I have to say that every other studbook in the world have injected one form or another horse into their breeding programme so why cant we.In order to keep with the times I feel we have to inject some scope combined with blood into Irish Breeding and if this means using outside stallions so be it.
Our breeding programme combines some old bloodlines including KOD,Diamond Lad,Chou Chin Chou, and Carnival Night.Most of the mares are covered with stallions that show ability,scope, and temperament and if that means we use something that is not Irish then so be it.Let the traditionalists breed traditional and anyone else breed from the best to the best if that is what you can do.We had a horse represent Ireland in Lanaken and another horse has just been placed well at the World Equestrian Federation show in Wellington,Florida a few weeks ago and I am sorry but I think if we used the stallion down the road and didnt look for something to compliment the mares then I seriously doubt if we would have these two horses doing what they are doing.Just my humble opinion.
 
I'm just loving this...but where the hell is Hilly?

I confess to be flying the RID flag but I'm biased as we have a very successful ISH (Kildalton Gold) Event Horse.

Fascinating stuff as I sit watching from the wings!
 
BallyshanHorses said:
I am here Eothain.All I have to say that every other studbook in the world have injected one form or another horse into their breeding programme so why cant we.In order to keep with the times I feel we have to inject some scope combined with blood into Irish Breeding and if this means using outside stallions so be it.
Our breeding programme combines some old bloodlines including KOD,Diamond Lad,Chou Chin Chou, and Carnival Night.Most of the mares are covered with stallions that show ability,scope, and temperament and if that means we use something that is not Irish then so be it.Let the traditionalists breed traditional and anyone else breed from the best to the best if that is what you can do.We had a horse represent Ireland in Lanaken and another horse has just been placed well at the World Equestrian Federation show in Wellington,Florida a few weeks ago and I am sorry but I think if we used the stallion down the road and didn't look for something to compliment the mares then I seriously doubt if we would have these two horses doing what they are doing.Just my humble opinion.
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I am certainly not saying that anyone should just use 'the stallion down the road' I am just saying that for me an ISH will always be a ID x TB/Connie.
All breeding animals should be selected to compliment each other in conformation and add ability in the chosen discipline required, I just think that as I have said previously a traditional ISH can hold it's own against a warmblood given the same opportunities as proven by Cruising and his sons and daughters.:)
 
There's not enough though. Only 2 horses in the top 200 last year. The Irish bred horses who are doing the business for us are for the most part quite exceptional (and quite often are by Cruising). A traditional ISH will always be tb/id cross. There will always be people who breed just that, however, to get back to the position we once held, we need that infusion of foreign blood.
A former Irish World Champion, told a stud owner I know, that Irish horses are too clever to be showjumpers. They know after a while that if they touch the poles that it doesn't hurt. He said a ten or twelve year old foreigner will come around a corner and jump a fence like it's his first time to jump, land, take a stride and jump another fence like it's his first time to jump.
Interesting thought!
 
Eothain said:
A former Irish World Champion, told a stud owner I know, that Irish horses are too clever to be showjumpers. They know after a while that if they touch the poles that it doesn't hurt. He said a ten or twelve year old foreigner will come around a corner and jump a fence like it's his first time to jump, land, take a stride and jump another fence like it's his first time to jump.
Interesting thought!
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Had to laugh. That's why we've called them dumbloods, they don't have brains! Give me a horse with a brain any day:rolleyes:;)
 
I think he may have generalised slightly! When you look at the horses who are out there competing and globe trotting, they clearly can't have bad temperaments or a lack of brains. I can't see how a horse like Castleforbes Libertina, Peppermill, Cumano or Arko could be considered dumb!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Eothain said:
A former Irish World Champion, told a stud owner I know, that Irish horses are too clever to be showjumpers. They know after a while that if they touch the poles that it doesn't hurt. He said a ten or twelve year old foreigner will come around a corner and jump a fence like it's his first time to jump, land, take a stride and jump another fence like it's his first time to jump.
Interesting thought!
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Thats just a polite way of saying Irish horses can't jump

Warmbloods dont "kiss poles" because they can jump them!

I was at the RDS last year watching the 5 year old finals. It was won by an WB/ISH. There was a stark difference between these WB/ISH and the pure Irish bred. The pure Irish breds made such a mess, I thought all the men in Ireland wouldn't be able to rebuild the course.
 
This thread has been great thanks. I do breed WBs but I love Irish horses.

The only way to get Irish only pedigree horses back to the very top SJ is to breed the very best Irish mares to the very best Irish stallions at least once. From what I can make out from info on here is that the best mares go to WB stallions eg if I have picked this up right - Trump Carder & Queen of Trumps are full sisters and have produced lots of excellent offspring, Royal Concorde etc, by WB stallions. But is QoT the dam of Clover Flush? a stallion who has had from a very small crop an excellent jumping mare Harristown Princess out of a Kildalton mare. Has QoT any other offpring by Irish stallions or just him?

Samgamgee that is mentioned - he is by a WB stallion out of TB mare but he is a half brother to Flexible and Flexing who are all Irish blood and very successful.

It is easier to find a top class WB stallion but maybe if each top class Irish mare went once to a top class Irish stallion then a few more might make it to the top :)
And can I buy a filly from that cross at a very reasonable price as it will be an Irish only blood horse that can't jump :) :)
 
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Queen Of Trumps is indeed the dam of Clover Flush. Clover Flush is a beautiful stallion. You'd hardly expect him to breed the quality that he does. He's the sire of my yearling filly that I'm going to try to breed traditional Irish jumpers from. Although, I will be breaking that rule on at least 3 occasions. Once for Womanizer, once for Luidam and once for Je T'aime Flamenco.

Carmena Z is out of an Irco Mena daughter of Trump Carder and Royal Concorde is out of Trump Carder herself by Concorde funnily enough. I don't know too much more about the Queen Of Trumps and what else she produced.

I consider this dam line to be as important to Irish breeding as the mare Tanagra is to the Selle Francais. With Tanagra being the dam of Jalisco B, grand-dam of Cabdula Du Tillard and grand dam of Ephebe For Ever.

Don't get me wrong, I think Irish horses can still the job done, but only just. I feel we need a foreign injection to set the breed alight once more.

The juggling act we face is making sure we continue to produce the leisurse horse we are famed for while defending our eventing status from the french and hannovarians while pulling our jumping status back off it's knees and providing the means to utilise foreign sires should breeders so wish but if they want to go the traditional route, then fair play to them and best of luck!
 
Turns out QoT has produced the Chellano Z mare Charisma Z owned by DRSsporthorses and the Ballinvella mare Royella who competed up to 1.30 and has since gone on to produce a 2008 AES filly by Handel
 
I have a Sky Boy mare out of The Queen of Trumps. She is 67% TB. Thats the problem with this family, they have too much blood. I must breed her to a powerfull heavy warmblood. Thats why Concorde worked well with Trump Carder ( Royal Concorde ) and Carthago Z worked well with Irma, Trump carder's daughter ( Carmena Z). The only ISH stallion I would consider is Flexible, but he has a lot of blood too. I have to use a warmblood. There is nothing else. Look at Touchdown ( WB / ISH ), Irco Mena ( WB / ISH ). These are just two examples of how this system works .
 
There are more foals out of the Trump Carder and Queen of Trumps mares. I know that Carmel Ryan bred a full brother out of Queen of Trumps to our gelding Charisma Z (by Chellano Z), but a year younger. She calls him Zak (not sure what his real name is but I can ask). He is grey as well, but is the total opposite of ours, which is high-blooded. Zak takes after the KOD side of the family and he's huge...I would venture 17 h at the least. Ours is 16.1. I believe Zak went to Shane Breen sometime late last year.

I know there was a full sister to Royal Concorde (Trump Carder), by the name of Concordia, and another stallion by the name of Dutch Treat by Irco Mena--which would make full brother to Irma.

Here's a link to a Chellano Z/Trump Carder by the name of Cherubini Z. I haven't seen him personally but by all accounts he was the star of Spruce Meadows last year. Carmel Ryan has him listed for sale. Just one more from a stellar family!

http://www.irishhorseworld.com/en/index.php?categoryid=105

Trump Carder and Queen of Trumps were like gold in terms of production of world class showjumpers. I would love to hear from anyone that has mares that even come close to what these two have done. I would say they are few and far between.
 
just what ireland needs, more horses! ;)

whatever about certain stallions being disappointing, as regards their offspring- people look back on certain stallions and say "sure he never bred anything", take a look at the mares he got- rubbish. everyone knows someone who has a red rotten useless mare who wouldnt jump out of her own way so they decide to put her in foal and are shocked when the foal grows up to be just as useless. (ok i know im generalising slightly) we do need to take a look as to why we dont have as many top jumpers like we did with the great cruising and all those greats, and some continental blood may be the way to go but we equally need to look at the quality of mare were using, be she foreign bred or irish bred. take a catalogue at tb sales and look at any lot- 1st dam, 2nd dam, 3rd dam... as they say it takes two!
 
Dam line of Irco Mena is pretty impressive. His dam, Ballymena Park also produced Marcoville (individual 6th Barcelona Olympics) and Mirca G (won Nations Cups on the same team as her full brother Irco Mena). Daughter's of Mirca produced graded stallions Irco Miro (winner of Suffolk Grand Prix ridden by John Whitaker) and Irco Balou, and a grand daughter produced the approved stallion Balou Mena. Also from this dam line is a number of international performers
 
Thanks for all the info :) It is great to read about these mares.
Ballymena Park another fab Irish mare, looks like she was bred to WBs. Any offspring by Irish stallions? Maybe it is a catch 22 :)
 
According to google both Touchdown and Chippison are out of International Irish SJ mares so you would expect that cross with WB stallions to work to some degree.
I do think Irish stallions get a hard time & I am not even in Ireland :)

Is there a reason why Cool Diamond is not mentioned as an Irish stallion of merit?
 
Chippison is by Cavalier and out of Chipmount by Flagmount Boy who is a full brother to the stallions Flagmount King, Flagmount Diamond and Diamonds Are Trumps. She was indeed an international jumper as was Touchdown's dam Lady Willpower by Cheyne.

Coolcorron Cool Diamond is a good horse but a tad expensive, I wanted to use him in 2008 but opted for Clover Flush when I heard the price!!! He has some nice horses jumping on the circuit like Kimberlite and Ballyanchor Cool Diamond. I think that because of his price and semen quality he'll never get a fair chance to be regarded as the quality stallion he is.

In terms of Ireland not having quality Sports stallions, I would have to disagree. Look at Cara Touche. Winner of 3 1.40 g.ps in 2009 as an 8 year old. He's by Touchdown and out of a Flagmount Diamond mare who comes from the family of Castlepollard who held the Hickstead Speed Derby record for 14 years until Shane Breen and Royal Concorde came along in 2008 and set a new record. ... So theoretically, a mare from the family of Royal Concorde, bred to a stallion from the family of Castlepollard is surely a future Hickstead Speed Derby winner!!! Lucky you Grass Horse!

Samjemgee. RDS 7 year old champion. Represented Ireland in Lanaken in 2009. By Ramiro B out of Flexible's mother, Flex who is a former Irish National Champion. Ramiro B is sire of Heracross a Boomerang winner and 1.50 competitor for Irish-based Swedish rider Stephanie Finetto.

Cruisings Mickey Finn would be out for you due to the Sky Boy blood but what about Oldtown KC? By Cruising of out Trevor Breen's international speed mare Oldtown Katie who is by Clover Fields. Oldtown KC might not be the world's biggest horse but he's a little bull of a thing!

Coolcorron Cool Diamond is another one you could look at. Another big powerful tank of a horse. He competed in last year's National Championships at 20 years of age! Pretty good going I think.

Errigal Flight, as well if you want big powerful horses and don't mind close KoD breeding.

It's not fair to say we have nothing in Ireland but as I've said previously the reason I'm looking abroad for assistance is because I feel we could do with a touch of new blood to freshen up the entire gene pool which has become stagnant and muddy.

And yes Kittyandnewt, there are some s***e mares breeding in Ireland. I do intend to extend an olive branch to the likes of Cougar and see if they can step up to the plate. He's still quite young like. 7 or 8 good breeding seasons and we could be sat here after the 2026 WEG talking about the ISH stallion son of Cougar, out of the Clover Brigade mare, who won individual gold!

Wishful thinking I dare declare. I say, send in the Cumano blood!
 
Eothain said:
A former Irish World Champion, told a stud owner I know, that Irish horses are too clever to be showjumpers. They know after a while that if they touch the poles that it doesn't hurt. He said a ten or twelve year old foreigner will come around a corner and jump a fence like it's his first time to jump, land, take a stride and jump another fence like it's his first time to jump.
Interesting thought!
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GrassHorse said:
Thats just a polite way of saying Irish horses can't jump

Warmbloods dont "kiss poles" because they can jump them!
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Is anybody looking at the "producing" side of things? Competition success, especially at top level SJ, as has been mentioned in this thread before is a lot about technical as well as natural ability.

I agree that indiscriminate breeding (as well as inbreeding, I will stick to that point!) and overbreeding to cash in on the previous success and make a quick buck out of the reputation of certain Irish bloodlines, has really not helped the top-end Irish breeders trying to produce the next Cruising, but there will always be the age old problem of nature vs. nurture.

Have you taken a look at the 1.10m classes at British county shows? Anyone else thinking that there are lots of outstanding animals there, who will never ever fulfill their talent because they are simply being ruined by incompetent riders? Quality ISH animals have been imported to Britain by the truckload in the last 20 years (and the rest), only to end up in the knackers yard because of rubbish producing. They might have been good enough to go to the top, but we'll never know. There are too many people with too much money, too big an ego and not enough skill.

The point I am trying to make is that clever horses need clever producers who do not just try and "make" the horses perform to the top of their ability. They need producers who are able to coax that huge ISH heart to try the best they can all of the time - that is what will always beat the pure WBs IMO.

I'll take my ISH mare I mentioned before (Rich Rebel xx X Clover Hill X Legaun Prince) as an example. I acquired her as a 7 year old after she was wrecked by one of those "semi-professional" SJ riders. She is by a mile the cleverest horse I've ever worked with. She is the only horse I know, I can honestly say considers all her options before doing anything. She is completely deliberate about everything she does. Not a hint of dumblood overeaction, ever. I was free-schooling her in my round pen last Summer. The fence is 6' high. I could see her gage the fence on the side of the open field, but thought she would decide it wasn't worth her while to try and jump it. After a couple of circuits, she trotted at it, took one stride of canter and jumped the fence, completely effortlessly and in perfect style. There can be no denying that this mare has bags of talent and ability. So why did she finish her SJ carreer at the age of 6 at British Novice level? Get her on you side, she is the perfect partner and will do anything for you. Get her against you... well something will break... It wasn't the SJ poles that broke though. She never "kissed" a fence in her SJ life!

Bloodlines and good breeding is only one side of the equation. There are not enough good producers around to get the best out of talented young horses.
 
Doris68 said:
I'm just loving this...but where the hell is Hilly?

I confess to be flying the RID flag but I'm biased as we have a very successful ISH (Kildalton Gold) Event Horse.

Fascinating stuff as I sit watching from the wings!
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*waves at Doris*


I’m home! De-jetlagged but resorting to dial-up ISP so not online much this week..

Okay, this will be long. Turn back now if essay-adverse.

My tuppenceworth on the Irish sport industry is .. Well, for starters, it’s not an industry. It’s still a collection of ‘professional’, hobby and farmer-breeders who will do their own thing despite any amount of forum pontifications or directives from hierarchy.

The real incentive for Irish breeders to change tack is finance. From getting rid of Draught mares when banks offered cheap loans for tractors; to Draught breeders using KOD and Clover Hill, (because it was a win-win situation then whether the foal was a colt or a filly as most Draught breeders greeted colt foals with the enthusiasm of a dairy farmer towards bull calves) and various premium/headage schemes.

Foals are still a ‘cash crop’ for the farmer-breeder who still makes up the majority of Irish breeders. If they’re told they will make a profit at the sales by using warm blood sires, they will use them; if they are told that there is a €5,000 prize for the best TB-sired foal in the RDS Breeders Championship, they will use TB sires. If they are told that in order to put Irish-bred show jumpers back at the top of their game in ten years, they must use top continental stallions, many will. Those that can afford to.

Apparently in Ireland, you must either love or hate warm bloods. I think this stems from the protectionist mindset of the Irish breeder because for years - and they were glorious years that breeders should be proud of - we ruled the show jumping world when eventing was considered a poor second-best.

Those glory years bought the Irish sport horse the type of publicity that ..well, couldn’t be bought. So I, for one, will never knock those legends because they brought buyers to Ireland, (albeit at the expense of the future mare herd) and put money in breeders and producers pockets, particularly for hard-pressed farmers. There was land & jeeps bought, stables built, kids put through third-level education back then when a profit could be made from horses.

One example; at the Bord na gCapall young stock sale, held in conjunction with the 1982 World Showjumping Championships held in Dublin, the top-priced youngster was a Positively 3y.o, sold for £7,200. In the early 1980s, when the average price of a 3-bedroom bungalow was £20,000, that went a long way. Are Irish breeders making one-third of the price of the same house now? A garage maybe.

I wonder if the reason for our downfall was as simple as not using warm bloods to keep up. Let’s hope it is that easily fixed and for those who opt for that plan that we could be back on top in ten years. I wish it would happen but is it that simplistic?

Breeding is cyclical, for starters. It was dominated by Irish-breds for years and while we were basking in the glow of KOD, Clover Hill and Cavalier, the Dutch, Germans and French came from behind and are now on top; the Belgian and Swedish studbooks are next in line.

But it took these studbooks decades of experimentation and fine-tuning and the same applies here. There were some Irish breeders who used top European stallions from the 1970s, starting with Frank Kernan using Galoubet. His Touchdown is perhaps the best (only?) success story, having jumped at the Barcelona Olympics and sired the World Champion’s mare, Liscalgot. And that’s what we’re talking about and aiming for, surely? World-class horses. In order to get back to the top of the rankings, Ireland has to consistently produce championship horses and successful 1.50/1.60m Grand Prix horses.

And it won’t be as simple as sourcing top European stallions by AI, that will speed up the process but will it happen in the ten ’fast-track’ years? It is going to take decades and generations. I was recently speaking to one of the top Continental stallion owners recently and asked if Ireland could catch up, ’at quickest, it will take 30/40 years .. But we will still be 30/40 years ahead of you!’.

Because you’re also up against a superb marketing and promotional machine. You will always hear about the success stories in the horse world but rarely about the failures that are quietly shuttled off abroad and to factories.

Also, just to clarify one thing. I am not anti-warm blood. If that’s the case, I’m anti-Irish Sport Horse because both the continental and Irish types are bred on the same principle - TB used on light draught mares and then continue to cross for substance/quality/athleticism according to the mare’s requirements and what the future plan is for the progeny, ie, show jumper, eventer, show horse, happy hacker, hunter. There is a job for every horse and I’m not the slightest bit snobbish about where my neds end up so long as they’re in good hands.

That’s part of the problem in Ireland - we’re obsessed with breeding show jumpers. They HAVE to be show jumpers. And partly that’s to do with the glory years when our wins were enshrined in the Irish psyche. One example; I was marking answer sheets at a Riding Club quiz. One question was name the ‘Triple Crown’ Aga Khan team of 1978; another was name last year’s Irish Aga Khan members - everyone got the first question right; not one could answer the other.

‘But they’re only Riding Club members’ .. ah, but they’re also a substantial part of the the market that keeps the Irish horse industry afloat, from horse feed to trailers, farriers and vets; part of the sponsors target market and who the RDS hope will buy stand tickets for Aga Khan day. So let’s hope this blip is cyclical and there will be a team of four Irish-bred horses (with pronounceable names, this comes up so often!) in the future.

On the Aga Khan, I’m seeing something different from you Eothain when you watch the past greats. Of course we know that courses have changed and the type of horse - but it WAS sheer heart and a will to win, which not even the most scientific breeding programmes can guarantee, that made them tigers in the ring and I love them for that. I presume it was the two Heathers you referred to as ‘cobby’ because the 3/4bred Rockbarton was a quality horse who would not have been out of place in a lightweight show hunter class.

And out of John Whitaker’s five Olympic appearances, his only medal was with another Irish cob - Ryan’s Son. His background is a salutary tale because his dam was turned down twice for Bord na gCapall premiums (one of two failed mares on the first occasion and the only one from 80 mares on the second year) and her owner was so exasperated he sold the in-foal mare at the local mart. She disappeared but her only known (and probable) foal was Ryan’s Son.

You can’t breed freaks, no more than you can guarantee world champions with every foal, but the underdogs like Ryan’s Son are unforgettable.

Those old inspections will now be replaced by linear scoring but no chart will ever replace a great horseman’s eye for a horse. It’s a gift. The late Bord na gCapall vet, Dick Jennings and stallion owner, Philip Heenan were two with the best eye and instinct for a horse. Skippy, Sky Boy, Clover Hill ..and more that I can’t think of off the top of a Sunday morning coffee-deprived head ..were some of the reasons that while Irish breeders should always look forward, they could also acknowledge the past greats and that some officials got it very right.
 
(Continued from above as the new-look H&H appears to have word count restrictions?)

How was Clover Hill ridiculed by Draught breeders? Genuinely curious about that one. For sure, there was a lot of jealousy by other stallion owners and every couple of months the mischievous rumours went around about his demise but I personally know of many Draught breeders who thanked their lucky stars that Jennings passed Clover Hill. Whether Clover Hill produced a colt or a filly, was a win-win result because the colt could be sold as a performance prospect when other Draught colts were sold for buttons.

The showring and Draught purists rarely used Clover Hill anyhow because he wasn’t a Draught, they used more traditional types. The more far-seeing could see the long-term effects of relying on Clover Hill (and KOD) but perhaps the majority of Irish breeders don’t look that far ahead and when you’re getting £5k for a Clover Hill Draught colt, they did live for (and enjoy) that moment. And depended on getting it, in some cases.

It was pure profit and I think that is why some breeders are wary about paying AI and other associated costs, for top European stallions because they wonder will they make a profit?

And the other fear is if Irish lines will be lost; there are already some mares with 2/3 warm blood crosses - if they were TBs they would almost qualify for a Weatherbys passport. If the unique selling point of an Irish mare is their character, longevity, soundness and fifth leg, that will be lost as it’s bred out. And ..playing Devil’s advocate here because this is what I hear on an almost daily basis ..if we end up with a generic Irishblood, what will entice UK, European and US buyers to add in extra travel/shipping costs to buy here when they can get the ‘same’ at home?

Was flicking through the horses for sale pages in H&H this week and looking at the prices for offspring by ’fashionable’ European sires; one local breeder plans to use one particular sire; he has added up his costs and is hoping for a colt which he plans to sell for 10K as a foal. I’m not going to break the news to him that an English buyer could buy one by that same sire that already jumping 1.30m for less than that.

You could argue that that’s not a superstar but the reality is the majority of ‘bread & butter’ horses will go no further than 1.30m and a comparative handful will ever reach 1.60m.

So genuinely, the best of luck to anyone planning to go down the ‘breed a world-class show jumper in 2 generations or less’ route.

For the other breeders, Horse Sport Ireland has to at least start by making the distinction between warm blood and traditional animals passports. This comes up every year at their AGM; there have been repeated requests in the media and still no, because of EU regulations.

As for the Grange Bouncer and Huntingfield Rebel references, Eothain - you’ve contradicted yourself by saying they’ve produced ‘nothing’ but yet have their place?
Grange Bouncer is one of the few Draught stallion to have competed at 4* level; he has eventing progeny in the pipeline and several approved sons but if you judge everything by show jumping standards, perhaps that’s not anything?

Likewise, Huntingfield Rebel; would you complain if we were ‘flooded’ with 200 Cumano offspring? !

So is their ‘place’ producing future broodmares or all-rounders? I have one mare in foal to Rebel and not for a minute am I deluded enough to think that the foal will be at the 2020 Olympics. BUT she’s a quality blood-type mare whose ISH-sired daughters are exactly the type of Irish mares found in the 1970s. One, by King’s Master - and I’ll mention him as Irish sires have got plugs galore in this post! - is greatly admired by stallion owners and breeders whose opinions I hugely respect - is in foal to Watermill Swatch. Do I think I’m going to breed another Olympian show jumper?

If her dam produces a filly, another real Irish mare in the making. If she produces a colt, there’ll be a job and home for him too as he‘ll have the character of both. For the Swatch foal, eventing is their market either as a performer or replacement broodmare.

“You get what you get” is my breeding motto, not the clichéd ‘breed the best to the best (and hope for the best)’ because there is no greater roller-coaster than horse-breeding. If only it was that formulaic than breeding two champions and being guaranteed another.

All you can hope for first is a live, healthy foal frisking about and THEN you can start planning Olympics or bread & butter jobs for ‘em.

Someone mentioned about Irish Draught mares being heavy?? Not the real types. They were found in pockets around the country where there was no Clydesdale or heavy draught influences and are as scarce as hen’s teeth now. There is one beauty I make a beeline for to watch at shows - she’s barely 16 hands, floats over the ground - you barely hear her hooves touch base - and only breeds every second year as she pings 5’ fences out hunting. Sadly, she’s probably one of the last of those nimble, intelligent true types that have been taken over by ponderous, earth-shaking giants.

They can’t all be world-beaters but it was the likes of her and similar that bred Irish horses with very happy owners.

Quickly skimming down .. Sunday lunch needs cooking .. Highland King has a half-brother, King’s Master; there is also a full-brother colt to Ballincoola (which the French are interested in leasing) while Ballincoola’s dam and full-sister are in foal to Master Imp and King’s Master respectively. Not a problem there sourcing the HK line or connections.

Kiltealy Spring .. Like Orbis, didn’t quite get the mares he needed. Why? Because he bred useful show jumpers so lost popularity.. Then goes and produces Fernhill Clover Mist, Some Day Soon and Noble Springbok instead. Sod’s Law. I will hold my hands up and ‘fess to standing in the aisle between him and Ghareeb, deciding..then telling Jay Bowe to use Ghareeb for that year. Kiltealy Spring was dead by the next year. Such is life.

To be continued. No doubt :-)
 
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