Happy Days For ISH Breeders

Hilly
You have echoed so much of what I feel and have said in posts further up the thread.
I had actually written a missive and went to send it and it failed Aaaarrrghh so will be cutting and pasting this one to reply.

We now have a separate stud book for Warmbloods (Warmblood Studbook of Ireland) with performance testing along continental lines and a certain number of approved stallions within that book already. Some mare family lines have been set up already.

I wonder what the take up will be as unless the Irish Horse Board hand off all the approved warmbloods in the main stud book to the new Warmblood stud book. Are we actually any further forward?.

At present using a horse with foreign bloodlines whether an Oldenburg, SF or Holstein means even if your mare has warmblood lines herself, the resulting offspring is classified as an Irish Sport Horse (ISH). If that same mare were covered with a warmblood stallion from the newly formed Warmblood studbook of Ireland, the offspring would be considered a warmblood (IWB???) and also subject to inspection, unique identifier microchip for the stud book and also a passport from Warmblood Studbook of Ireland.

So how many of us with warmblood breeding will follow this route and put our mares forward for inspection and how many will continue to use warmblood stallions approved by the Irish Horse Board? So, when is an Irish warmblood not a warmblood, when it is an Irish Sport Horse!

Because the USP of the Warmblood studbook of Ireland is “Warmbloods with an Irish accent”, there are percentages of draught blood (12.5%) permitted and the same for TBs etc.

It can no longer be said with the expansion of the approved foreign horses in the stud book that an ISH is guranteed to be a mix of ID and TB blood and as Hilly said everyday run of the mill warmblood crosses are plentiful abroad. We have to promote and market the versatility of the classic Irish horse with his draught power, andTB heart . By diluting or increasing the amount of blood in the cross, a horse for all seasons can be bred even show jumpers.

Nobody has mentioned Carling King yet – 4th Individual Athens Olympics a pure, 8th WEG, numerous Nations Cups- Irish horse who retired sound at 16. Sired by Clover Hill, King of Diamonds dam line

Hilly took the words out of my mouth about the production of horses too. We do rush them here to get them looking sharp for the sales sometimes, but there are also a lot of bad producers and riders (as everywhere). There are also some genius producers and riders who do get the well deserved rewards. The proper production of the horse is vital and more benchmarking and performance scoring should be applied during a young horse’s career which all adds to his genetic potential.

It is necessary to improve the quality of the Irish Show Jumping Horse to adapt him to the requirements of today’s courses but equally the quality of training and nurture and the right riders play as much of a part and too many good young horses are spoiled by over jumping to get a few points up.

An article in the Irish Field this week states “Ireland needs an infusion of high-quality genetics and a selection programme in order to return the Irish horse to the top of the sport” To this end apparently some international classes for 7 and 8 year olds have been added to the RDS schedule this year. This is from the RDS Breeding Expert Group that was formed after the breeders forum they hosted last October.

The article also states that the traditionalists among us will be “pleased to know” the thoroughbred is not considered totally redundant in the production of top class show jumping horses. They also state “culling” will be needed by breeders as a first step if the ISH breeder is to match steps with his continental counterpart.

Breeding is subjective, we are individuals and we know what we like. Those of us who like to think we can breed quality and have proved we can, tend to be more enlightened and examine pedigrees conformation and try to ensure the right nick with our mares and stallions.

I cannot subscribe to Eoithains view that sticking say Baloubet de Rouet on any mare is progress in breeding because of the horses genetics. It is not just about function it is about form too and there should also be attention paid to conformation of the mare and stallion and back in the pedigree if possible. A lot of random breeding develops soundness issues and that is something else we need to bear in mind. Admittedly not a lot of study has been done in Ireland on inherited traits of soundness in the ISHbut in general terms, Irish horses are sound horses whereas there is a lot of inherited soundness issues in some warmblood lines.

At the end of the day, we can choose to breed warmbloods via the Warmblood studbook of Ireland or the IHB, Draught horses (modern or traditional), TBsxIDs in varying dilutions and throw the odd Connemara to a TB for a truly underrated Irish sport horse.

I am going to Cavan Stallion Parade on Tuesday evening for a mouth watering evening of seeing the cream of Irish stallions. After this forum debate, I can’t wait as I have STILL not decided on a couple of stallions yet.

Happy Sunday everyone…….
 
Ok, very quickly, Irishlife, rarely do I mention conformation in posts because well, I would always always always be of the opinion that people who are on a forum like this would have a good grasp of the conformational needs of a broodmare. I'd be inclined to take good baseline conformation for granted. Maybe that's wrong of me but I thought that it just goes with out saying!

Hilly, hello and welcome back. I'll address the ridicule of Clover Hill first while I search back through the pages to find where I called Heather Honey & Blaze 'cobby'

So ... ... ... All I can simply say is that in these parts, or maybe just the Draught folk I know, mentioning Clover Hill as a reputable ID sire gets you dirty looks and raised blood pressure. You hear things like, and I quote, "That auld Clover Hill f*cker was no Irish Draught. He's grand for breeding a showjumper but it's an absolute disgrace that he was ever called an Irish Draught. Shir wasn't he a half bred! If you want to breed an Irish Draught use something else but certainly not Clover Hill" These comments in my book are a touch petty. Surprisingly not all from stallion owners either, mainly Draught enthuiasts I know that were annoyed by his status.

"When you look at videos on youtube of the old Irish horses, it looked more like sheer heart rather than out standing talent that got them around. They were quite unorthadox and cobby. When you watch Rockbarton or Heather Honey or Heather Blaze, you'd think to your self, how in the name of God did they manage to jump around?"

I'm not knocking these horses either. They are/were fantastic horses. There's no denying that but where do they stack up against the horses of today?

In reference to the Irish Field article, it is factually incorrect. In 2009 there was indeed one ISH in the Aga Khan competition. The Errigal Flight mare London Calling ridden for Sweden by Lotta Schultz who was the person that rode the sole ISH in showjumping at the 2008 Olympics, Calibra by Cavalier.

Not for one second do I think that there should be a passport difference between traditional Irish horses and Irish horses of european roots. Irish-bred is Irish-bred. Every year at the IHB agm I have to shake my head in disagreement when that guaranteed question comes up.

As for Grange Bouncer and Huntingfield Rebel-esque sires, I am indeed saying that if the majority of their stock ends up as those bread and butter types then happy days. I'm not saying that they won't produce competition stock but at 18 and 20 years of age, they should have produced more than they have. Lord knows it's not because they have had small books of mares. You may be missing that point that I want them to produce winners. I want one of them to give us the next Lenamore but the question I pose, to which there is no right or wrong answer just opinions, has the ship sailed on them being super star performance sires at their age? I'm begging the Draught folk to step up to the plate in terms of showing us what their horse's can do in modern sport and prove me wrong. At this point, I do think that in the future we'll see more horses like Ricardo Z and O.B.O.S Quality in the pedigrees of our eventers. There's also nothing wrong with breeding 1.20 or 1.30 horses. Superstars they may not be, but if they can be regularily in the money at shows then they are worth their weight in gold as diesel-horses. The horses that pay for you to at least get to the shows every week!

I'd also like to say that this year, I'm putting my Classic Vision x Duca Di Busted mare in foal to Watermill Swatch. What a fabulous stallion. Filly please!

That's great news about Ballincoola's relations being in foal to Master Imp and Kings Master. That has actually made my day! Sad, I know but I do worry about the future of our studbook.

I'm quite enjoying this thread. There's no petty squabbling or name calling. Just good points of view and opinions. No negativity. I get the sense that everyone wants Irish horses to kick a$$ again. Which is nice!

There's something else I wanted to say but it has slipped my mind so I'll post this for now and hopefully remember what I wanted to say for a later post!
 
this thread is really educating me no end..... Im new to all this and i actually feel a little better about my 'confusion' over the type and breeding of irish horses up until now.

i decided a while back that i wanted an ISH... but what i had in my minds eye wasnt always what I saw and it confused me.

I wanted a lw type horse but with enough substance to event (at low level). While I had admired some ISH's I had seen... i found myself seeing others and thinking them 'cobby', which was the last thing I wanted (just personal pref).

I always imagined ID's to be a heavier built horse - hence my confusion when I was seeing some lovely lw ISH's and discovering they were at least 50% ID - to me, they looked very TB-ish, which was great!

so the whole thing about CoverHill that Eothain has explained now actually makes the lightbulb go 'ping' and I finally think I'm getting it! !

i knew nothing of the breeding when i saw him but my choice ended up being a Clover Hill grandson and K.O.D G/grandson. So initially I was confused as to why I wasnt looking at big heavy horse ;) now i know why ;)
 
Doris: Put away the Rescue Remedy - no amount of sunshine or tornados could keep me away from the delights of Irish mud and the imminent arrival of non-jumping foals by 'nothing' sires..

(Where's the emoticons on the new-look site to show that last remark was made with tongue-welded-firmly-in-cheek?)

Irishlife - yes, we are also singing off the same hymnsheet. By all means breed to the top competition sires but there is still a huge amount to be proud of about the Irish horse and if only from a marketing viewpoint to facilitate an established market, there should be a distinction between continental and traditional Irish-breds' passports.

Funnily enough, on the same flight home from Florida was a well-known Irish agent who was at Wellington. Very few enquiries about Irish-breds between the economy and American buyers spoilt for choice, yet the Irish eventing agents report they have never had a busier winter with prospective UK and American buyers and the majority wanted progeny by .. TB sires. Horses for courses.

I think it was Ginnie who made the point about training and the importance of young horses landing in the right hands which I agree 100% with. There are so many variables from getting a foal up to competition standard, from keeping them in one piece to starting off with the right rider who will bring them along properly. Everyone wants the top producers or riders for their horses .. particularly for young event horse classes :-D .. but there is a limit to what even the professionals can manage.

Qualifying for Dublin with your novice jumper was the be-all for years. Because they sold. Then the owner/rider went scouting for three-year-old replacements; the three-year-old seller then bought foal replacements - that chain has gone. I remember customers literally knocking on our door enquiring if we had any Clover Hill foals for sale - now, you either hold on and produce them (at great expense unless it's done in-house) or take your luck at the foal sales.

Most showjumping yards have one, if not several, stallions, and their resultant progeny, to promote. What they will tell you privately about them may be very different from what they may say in public but that's par for the course. So the big yards don't need to buy replacements anymore; sales have slowed down and it's getting harder for many owners to find good, sympathetic producers to start off retained youngsters.

Education? I would have made a visit to Philip Heenan's 'waiting room' bench compulsory for every third-level equestrian studies student, particularly wet-behind-the-ears would-be breeders! You either loved or hated the place but it was an education watching and listening to him and I feel privilged to have learned snippets from the master.

One of the famous Philip-isms was 'Never speak ill of another man's stallions'. Not once in twenty years did I ever hear him bad-mouth or run down another owner's stallions. Too much of a gentleman and he was matched by Dr Pat Geraghty, who bred .. so I was delighted you mentioned him .. Carling King.

Fabulous horse that never quite got the headlines he deserved as the backbone of the Irish team and I have some nice pics of him enjoying a well-deserved retirement where he is still treated as 'the King'. Have often asked international showjumpers where XYZ ended up.. it's usually 'don't know' or one succint response 'Pedigree Chum' so lovely to see such a contented retiree.

He's one of the few Irish horses to make the jump from Lanaken to the Olympics and all for a £30 stud fee. Sadly, Philip, Pat and another great breeder, Betty Parker, are no longer with us but ironic that these three were so cut from the same cloth and that Pat and Betty - two of the most modest people you could meet - ended up breeding two of Clover's very best progeny. Betty bred Sure Coin (aka Ballaseyr Twilight) who will probably be the last traditionally-bred Irish winner of the Dublin Grand Prix.

Now, I'd better stop waxing nostalgic before I'm despatched to the corner to wear the pointy hat and 1970s outfit but while I'm all for progress, these old-time horse folk were in a league of their own and their opinions/achievements are still to be respected, even in an age of four-figure stud fees and F1/inbreeding/outcross/genetics-driven breeding programmes.

I was at that RDS brief last week - similar findings to the HSI expert group findings but there will be some changes to the Horse Show this, and in future, years. Culling was very much to the fore, not so much as in one-way trips to the factory but taking mares out of the breeding chain if they're not producing. Hopefully, some of the fugly coloured and par-standard Draughts in fields along every Irish road..

Let's hope these various findings and new schemes work but this is Ireland and it's not rocket science. Breeders KNOW what they have to do but first, they have to know what the intend to breed, showjumper, eventer or hobby horse. There's no 'one size fits all' horse anymore.

Secondly, they have to justify costs or else concentrate on covering the best mare with a top stallion than five third-rate mares with five second-rate stallions.

Thirdly, patience. If I intended to breed showjumpers, off to the Continent to buy a superb mare, from a stamm line that has produced winners for three generations and already in-foal to a top stallion. No starting off from scratch; no expensive AI packages (and some of those top stallions have less than great fertility rates - inbreeding?) .. three rungs up the generation ladder with one shopping trip.

It's the same as starting a recipe from scratch or buying an M&S ready meal: -)

May see you at Cavan, IL?
 
Eothain said:
So ... ... ... All I can simply say is that in these parts, or maybe just the Draught folk I know, mentioning Clover Hill as a reputable ID sire gets you dirty looks and raised blood pressure. You hear things like, and I quote, "That auld Clover Hill f*cker was no Irish Draught. He's grand for breeding a showjumper but it's an absolute disgrace that he was ever called an Irish Draught. Shir wasn't he a half bred! If you want to breed an Irish Draught use something else but certainly not Clover Hill" These comments in my book are a touch petty. Surprisingly not all from stallion owners either, mainly Draught enthuiasts I know that were annoyed by his status.

Anyone begrudger who made comments like that should face a life of The Riordans repeats, comely maidens dancing at the crossroads before joining O'Leary in the grave. Clover Hill was more of a Landgraf - TB sire on sturdy native that got jumpers - than a picture-perfect Draught but the reason he was passed was he had great bone, 10", at a danger time when ID mares were in danger of osteoporosis.


Not for one second do I think that there should be a passport difference between traditional Irish horses and Irish horses of european roots. Irish-bred is Irish-bred. Every year at the IHB agm I have to shake my head in disagreement when that guaranteed question comes up.

So French Cheese should be .. French Cheese? And British Beef .. British Beef. What's wrong with Camembert, produced in France .. or finest Angus beef bred in the UK. This is like the 'Irish smoked salmon' stocked in supermarkets which is Norwegian farmed but processed in Ireland. Label the goods and let the customer know what they're buying.



As for Grange Bouncer and Huntingfield Rebel-esque sires, I am indeed saying that if the majority of their stock ends up as those bread and butter types then happy days. I'm not saying that they won't produce competition stock but at 18 and 20 years of age, they should have produced more than they have. Lord knows it's not because they have had small books of mares. You may be missing that point that I want them to produce winners.


I have indeed missed that point. I shall start a search party forthwith. HOWEVER, it is only since Rebel moved to the best county that he attracted books of 200 mares; not before. There is still time for mini-Lenamore. As obvious as it sounds, breeding is a numbers game.


Filly please!

You'll take what God gives you... *runs back to the corner. Glenroe is on next*
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Here are a few thoughts from an Irish Draught enthusiast :


1. The IHB contributed to the demise of the ID by performance testing ID stallions. When they did this they concentrated only on jumping ability and paid little or no consideration to correct conformation, good limbs etc that were found in the old draught mares. The legacy that the IHB left was lighter, poor limbed horses that were lacking in both quality and type.
2. What they should have done was to INSPECT and seek out top class TB's, not only as sires, but also good brood mares to cross with the ID stallions (although I accept the TB sire on the ID mare is best). The difficulty is that the TB type has changed as flat race breeding has been introduced into NH horses. The supply of the ''old fashioned'' National hunt horses is almost non existent.
3. The grants paid to AID mares contributed to the demise. It encouraged all farmer breeders to breed from anything that resembled an ID regardless of its quality and with no considerations to what the aims were, other than breeding a foal. That money should have been used to promote a selective breeding programme to preserve the best ID bloodlines, then cross the progeny with stallions as in [2]. That way we would have still had the show quality half-breds that we had 20 yrs ago, which are as rare as hens teeth now. If we wanted eventers, we could use a second cross of TB. Having said that, there are a lot of half-bred/ three eight ID's doing very well in eventing to International level ( e.g. Headley Brittania, Lenamore etc )
 
Hilly, you are my soul mate. Absolutely brilliant posts, it is nice to have someone agreeing with me as I don't fully understand what is going on in Ireland as I live in Surrey!!! So have just been rambling my feelings and the little knowledge that I do have on the subject. ;)

It really has turned into a great debate and I'm quite proud to have been part of it.:D
 
I was privileged to know Pat Geraghty and Carling King (briefly) and we had some fine times at Glenamaddy in the days (not that long ago) when the stallions would be fighting it out in 1.60 masters competitions - Coille Mor Hill (RID), Welcome Flagmount (RID deceased sad loss) and Captain Clover by Clover Hill (ISH). All different shapes and sizes but Irish and brave with a fifth leg when it mattered.

To Eothain, I was not suggesting that mares bred to genetically valuable stallions would not have good confomation, I just feel the match making should involve pedigree research in a considered process as the stakes are so high given AI variables, price of straws etc.
Also anothr Q for Eithain - do you intend to have any of your mares inspected by the Warmblood studbook of Ireland or will you stick with IHB?. I have one mare who would be eligible but then I am moving down a very different pathway......

I think Hilly said she would be in Cavan Tuesday, Eothain? anyone else? PM me and maybe we could all grab a drink at some stage during the evening.
 
hilly said:
I have indeed missed that point. I shall start a search party forthwith. HOWEVER, it is only since Rebel moved to the best county that he attracted books of 200 mares; not before. There is still time for mini-Lenamore. As obvious as it sounds, breeding is a numbers game.


Filly please!

You'll take what God gives you... *runs back to the corner. Glenroe is on next*
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The best county? Galway? Puh-lease! Surely that's a mistake on your behalf. I was taking everything you had to say quite seriously. You know, really trying to take it on board like but then you go and make a comment like that! Completely undermining yourself. Galway ... pfff!

And of course I'll take what I'm given. Healthy babies are the most important babies after all. Just a quick note, I don't want to go abroad to get stallion juice to import and use on my mares. I would rather have a bunch of different traditionally stallions here in Ireland that were up to the job of producing the elite horse I'm trying to breed.

From where I'm sat, if I breed a horse that somebody buys and loves and adores and who wins it's Riding Club events every week and can hunt away with the best of them during the winter, it's a complete, unadulterated, total failure. That's not what I'm trying to breed. If it makes someone happy, then fantastic good for them but it won't be what I set out to breed and therefore a failure. I know that there'll always be a bigger market for these horses, but that's not why I'm breeding. I'm not particularily interested in breeding eventers either. I'm a show jumping man through and through. I was elected on to the Leinster Region Committee of ShowjumpingIreland at 21. Showjumping isn't a hobby or passion to me. It's my life. It's why I get up in the morning. If I couldn't compete anymore, you'd be as well off calling a vet to put me down. So while I want to make sure we retain our place as Eventing's #1 studbook, it's showjumping horses that I'm talking about breeding. Cumano, Nabab De Reve, Cornet Obolensky and co may not be the most ideal sires for eventing stock but I'll get to that in a moment.

I think that the ISH studbook should be split in to 3 sections. Not the ID studbook, the ISH one. Glad we're clear on that! I'd have the Showjumping, Eventing and Riding Horse sections. In the jumping section, you'd find recommended show jumping sires. These would be good showjumping stallions themselves; sires of higher class competitors e.g 1.20m upwards and well related stallions. The warmblood influence would be higher here. In the eventing section you'd find your Kiltealy Springs, Parkmore Nights, Kings Masters and co. In the Riding Section, you would probably find a higher proportion of Draught blood for the Happy Hacker/Bread and Butter horse. I'm not, I repeat Not saying that an Eventing-recommended sire couldn't produce a 5* showjumper.
Once a horse had been initially licensed, it would go into a general section until it's progeny come on stream and you see where they are more than likely going to end up. You would also see the cross-over stallions like Cruising, Puissance, Master Imp etc who would be listed under all sections they're relevant for. So in the Showjumping section for example, Cruising would be represented by horses like Mo Chroi, Flexible and World Cruise while Mr Medicott, Electric Cruise and Mr Cruise Control would be his Eventing section representitives. That way breeders could see what sire is producing more of what and where it's doing it. So that if they want to use a horse with very few high or medium performing horses, work away but they would realise that their margin for failure would be quite higher. Again I'm not saying a horse recommended to be a Showjumping sire couldn't produce a pleasant Riding Horse because once the horse is licensed/approved it'd be licensed/approved for all sections. It's a difficult job trying to accomodate such a wide variety of goals for one studbook but that's how I would go about doing it. Any suggestions? Any faults? How do you go about recommending a stallion as a Riding Horse sire?

As for Ballyser Twilight being the last traditional ISH Dublin GP winner, I'm sure Mo Chroi (Cruising x Mister Lord) would take issue with that!

And also, on the point about production of young horses. I'm in complete agreement with you. There's far too many riders in Ireland who think they are the next Eddie Macken but are as about as useful to young horses as Eddie the Eagle is to the future of ski-jumping
 
Irishlife said:
I was privileged to know Pat Geraghty and Carling King (briefly) and we had some fine times at Glenamaddy in the days (not that long ago) when the stallions would be fighting it out in 1.60 masters competitions - Coille Mor Hill (RID), Welcome Flagmount (RID deceased sad loss) and Captain Clover by Clover Hill (ISH). All different shapes and sizes but Irish and brave with a fifth leg when it mattered.

To Eothain, I was not suggesting that mares bred to genetically valuable stallions would not have good confomation, I just feel the match making should involve pedigree research in a considered process as the stakes are so high given AI variables, price of straws etc.
Also anothr Q for Eithain - do you intend to have any of your mares inspected by the Warmblood studbook of Ireland or will you stick with IHB?. I have one mare who would be eligible but then I am moving down a very different pathway......

I think Hilly said she would be in Cavan Tuesday, Eothain? anyone else? PM me and maybe we could all grab a drink at some stage during the evening.
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I was typing another essay while you and Simsar replied. It's hard to respond on this and be on Facebook at the same time. My stupid crops died on Farmville too. Arrggh.

I agree with you about ai-ing to high performing stallions. Unless it's a proper good mare, you're just wasting your money. Everything needs to be right.

At the moment, I'm going to stick with the IHB. I want to become a useful part of the whole organisation. I would love to be a future Breeding Director there.

Ireland is also getting another new studbook. The IES. Irish European studbook. I saw an advert about stallion gradings in thursday's Farmers Journal. It's a sister book to the AES. So now you have even more options and things will be even more confusing.

The plan at the moment is to go to Cavan on tuesday. I don't want to miss it again this year. If you see someone in a black and silver Brosna View Stables jacket, that's me!

One other quick question about using the stallion down the road. Is that a bad thing if your nearest stallion is say, Luidam and he compliments your mare etc (Better mention that last bit!!!)
 
I hate it when that happens on Farmville!

The stallion down the road in my case is a donkey .My neighbour has in his field a jack donkey with a pony and two RID mares. The pony is in foal to the jack so we are expecting a mule (but a genuine one as opposed to a metaphorical one). I am thinking of setting up an Irish hybrid studbook, there are a couple of zebras in Ballina if I recall so we might as well cover all angles in our quest for excellence!!!

Look out for you on Tuesday
 
To Eothain,
The IHB has had tens years of a booming economy to improve things. I don't see how they will improve things in this reccession. They still have no mare family numbers like the do on the continent. Its the mares they need to concentrate on. We have all stated several time throughout this discussion that you need a good mare. Most people dont know how good or bad their mare is. I hear stories people all the time like " I discovered recently that my hunting mare is related to a grand prix horse. We need to create a "brand value" around marelines like they have on the continent?
 
They're addressing that somewhat with this new system. There's different mare awards and star ratings that mares can recieve for siblings performance, progeny performance and their own performance. It's not the very best system in the world but it's far far from the worst. There's finally going to be mare inspections held in the autumn for linear scoring. You're absolutely right, we need to build our mare lines to be more formidable. Hence why I've stated that when I breed my mares to the Dollar Du Murier's, Cabdula Du Tillard's and Nabab De Reve's that I'd be crossing my fingers for a filly. Colts will be getting sold on. There is quite a few foreign sires I'm hoping to use and none if them are spring chickens like so it will be a case of crossing fingers for fillies! I only wish that I felt this way about breeding when I started out my own breeding project a few years ago. Then perhaps I wouldn't have bred a bunch of traditional hunters!!!
 
Im hoping stallions like Cara Touche and Jack of Diamonds work well with Irish mares. They are from Irish marelines with a drop of warmblood thrown in. Stallions like these would be palatable to traditional breeders. Breeders don't see Touchdown as a Warmblood, we claim him as one of our own! If the Cara touche/Jack of Diamonds system of producing stallions works? then will have mares in Ireland related to the stallions we use. This will give added value to our mares?
 
It's also funny that even the stauchest opponents to warmbloods I know, even considered Cavalier to be Irish. They had no problems claiming him as one of our own either!!!

In reference to Doris' earlier post about Draught stallions not being performance tested, can I just say the I presonally believe that they can't be performance tested enough! But hey, that's just me!
 
I've followed this fascinating thread with more than a degree of increasing bewilderment. That those who've contributed, in the main, are highly experienced and thoughtful breeders cannot be in question, and for their efforts, I for one, am grateful.

The array of stallions lauded has left me ever more confused. I have a few simple questions, and assuming that those serious contributors haven't, themselves, run out of steam, I'd be grateful for the answers.

A/ When we consider the Continental stallions, and they are legion, have we forgotten that, most certainly in the '60s & '70's the TB sales in this country were attended by so many Continental buyers, taking British Bred TB colts back with them, in an effort to improve their own stock? These Colts, as in Ireland were used to improve their existing stock.

B/ Why is it that when we talk about Breeds and Types, that we muddle them up? The ID and the Connemara, for instance, are BREEDS. The Holstein, Hanoverian, ISH et all, are TYPES, surely. Irish? British? Continental? what on earth does that mean, and perhaps more to the point, does it matter? The flow of horses, around the world, certainly for the last 30 years, has meant that with the possible exception of a few BREEDS, then there is no such thing as a horse which can claim to have National status.

Cavalier Royale was only considered by many to be "half bred". So he may have been, but I for one, wish that he was still about. There should, in my view, be no place for Nationalistic nonsense, within horse breeding. A good horse is where you find him, regardless of other considerations.

C/ The odd mention has been made of the mare lines. I would suggest that 90% of this thread has been given over to stallion choices. When I read through the pedigrees of Continental stallions, I see precious little mention of the mares.

Does nobody look back at the second and third dam, and consider what they've produced? I suppose that I'm going to answer my own question now, because the answer must be NO! Well bred TB mares, with a strong dam line to support them, for instance, will show previous progeny from any given individual mare who has produced several winners. With Sport Horses, and the discipline isn't that important, we rarely seem to see mares who produce more than one successful youngster. Is there a reason for this, beyond the obvious?

The days must be gone when a mare would be considered suitable for breeding, if she were no use for anything else. Am I wrong in considering that the really good Advanced mare all too often isn't used for reproductive purposes until the end of her career? Such waste.

Surely, the mare must be the most important part of the equation. What would I dearly love to find? A 4/5 year old filly, who has demonstrated that she has the required technique for whatever discipline, that, of vital importance, she can demonstrate a willingness to accept the pressure when asked to extend herself, and thirdly, as a bonus, that she has a degree of breeding to support her new career.

If the good and the great consider that I'm wrong, then I'm more that happy to be told so!

Alec.

ps. I've spent the last 4 hours reading, and then re-reading the collective thoughts, contained within this thread. The truth? I'm even more confused than when I started!
 
Welcome to the conversation Alec! I can assure you, once there's a good breeding topic being discussed, I won't run out of steam! On to your questions ...

A, I don't think that has been forgotten. It seems that things have gone half circle. They originally bought off us and now we're using or at least weighing up the pros and cons of using the fruits of their labour!

B, I agree. A prospective buyer of a showjumping horse will buy the horse based on it's talent. A good jumper is surely a good jumper if for example it is bred in Ireland using Holstein and SF lines or if bred in Ireland using ISH lines.

As for Cavalier ... What a terrible terrible loss

C, It's very hard in Ireland to find out about what 2nd and 3rd dams have produced. I'd say it's damn near impossible. Yes the Trump Carders and Queen Of Trumps lines are very well known. The Craven A line would be fairly well known too. She produced international jumpers like 007 and Clover Z as well as having jumped internationally herself. A full sister to both of those horses has gone on to produce a young Cruising sired stallion called Yeats who is a quite exciting prospect both as a stallion and as a competitive animal.
I know that HSI are trying to encourage the sales companies to change the catelogues so that they're more like thoroughbred sales catelogues with black print and more emphasis on 2nd and 3rd dams.
Without doing much research, I can safely say that the dam lines of at least 3 Continental stallions are pretty good.
Dollar Du Murier, WEG Team Gold Medallist 2002 is by Jalisco B. He in turn is by the legendary Alme. His dam is a mare called Tanagra who is by the thoroughbred sire Furioso. Tanagra produced a filly by Galoubet called Quanagra who produced the stallion Cabdula Du Tillard who is sired by the Trakenher Abdullah. At this point I feel it necessary to mention that Galoubet himself is by Alme but out of the French Trotter mare Viti. Tanagra produced another filly called Geisha N who produced the stallion Ephebe For Ever, who is by Galoubet! So you can see why I consider the Tanagra dam line quite important and why I consider it worth buying in the semen from some of her descendents.
Cornet Obolensky's dam Rabanna Van Het Costerveld is by the little known stallion Heartbreaker. Rabanna is out of the mare Holivea Van Het Costerveld. Holivea also produced Jessica Kurten's Clinton-sired jumping stallion Castleforbes Vivaldo Van Het Costerveld. So Rabanna and Vivaldo are half-siblings and when Rabanna was crossed with Clinton she produced ... Cornet Obolensky! Again, worth buying in to I think!
I'm sure I could dig up more dam-line info but the question is ... Where to start? So I don't think it's an entirely fair, but indeed quite relevant comment about the dam-lines being forgotten. I can tell you about the dam lines of my own mares. They were never asked to do anything other than hunt and jump the occasional 1.10m at local shows. I don't think it'd be fair to write them off as broodmares just yet! I know none of you have said I should, but I'm just saying!!! Maybe an insight to why I want to go abroad to buy in semen from descendents of mares like Holivea and Tanagra?

My apologies for confusing you Alec!!!
 
a1b2c3 said:
I have a few simple questions, and assuming that those serious contributors haven't, themselves, run out of steam, I'd be grateful for the answers.
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Longevity and stamina are also the hallmarks of contributors as well as the wonderful ISHs. Time, alas, is the issue so plan to brace your collective selves for further bewilderement on Wednesday when I'll respond to yourself, Doris, Simsar *high-fives Simsar* et al.

You won't miss me at Cavan - seeing as it's the season for blatant self-promotion - I shall be the one listening to Best of the 70s on my Ipod whilst carrying my Irish passport, a Galway flag and wearing my Anglo-Irish jacket with the 'BIFFO for President' badge.

TBC.
 
Hi Alec,

I will try and be succinct!!!! Do bear in mind my opinions are just mine but I am sure you will have loads of responses.

A) TB bloodlines have been always been used to improve the quality of a breed/type and to freshen up stale bloodlines and some of the best from the UK and Ireland have been the backbone of a lot of European studbooks. The TB is overlooked a lot of times sadly but there are some interesting TB’s showing their mettle available to Irish breeders which with judicious use cannot fail to improve the quality of some of our jumping horses.

Secondly it is interesting to see a more “modern” type of warm blood coming through, more athletic, more blood as opposed to some of the Hanoverian battle buses of yesteryear. Equally the “performance” and “modern” taglines have been applied to Irish Draughts in recent times, causing some divide amongst the draught people. There is a role for traditional Irish Draughts and more modern performance type draughts and this is just another cross of blood permitted by the societies.

B) Agreed - we have our Connemaras, Kerry Bog Ponies and Irish Draughts our native breeds. Then we have the Irish Sport Horse who these days may be RIDxTB; Warm blood xTB; or Warm blood x TBxID and any combination thereof. Ergo The Irish Sports Horse is a type also agreed.

I think most people would think of the classic Irish horse as the traditional half bred who is in no danger of disappearing anywhere such is his popularity bravery and versatility. As for eventers – we can breed those in spades.

The one discipline where we are lacking horsepower at the top no more than the UK or USA is in show jumping (dressage is not as high profile here but it has gained serious popularity in recent times). Therefore if we wish to catch up with our continental counterparts we need to implement a breeding programme to introduce even more “warm blood” to the mix utilising the top bloodlines horses with proven international performance and proven progeny.

This breeding strand for elite show jumpers should be separate to the main studbook and there is a Warm blood Studbook of Ireland in force for the last year now. It is a legitimate approved studbook and passport issuing authority who offer mare inspections at reasonable rates which gives current Irish broodmares the opportunity to become the foundation of a numbered dam line.

Proper mare inspections are to be welcomed and in my opinion, should be mandatory for all mares at 3 years of age (somewhat impractical given the size of the broodmare band here).

Horses of all types here are recorded whether they are fully approved in the main book Section A or Section B. There is also a Section One Section Two and Supplementary One and Supplementary Two defined by parameters including known breeding, conformation, veterinary and performance criteria. Therefore it is possible to breed a horse whose dam may be a premium mare, bred in the purple and resident in Section A of the studbook by a stallion who is in Section One because of not meeting the performance criteria (usually SJ, Dressage or Eventing Points). This can be because the stallion owner chooses not to compete the horse. As a consequence the progeny of that mare will only be considered for Section B of the main studbook. It does become frustrating at times.

I believe no mare should be bred from unless she has a good baseline conformation and her good points outweigh the bad. Is she the right type of mare for what I aim to breed? Her pedigree will tell me how she should perform in a given career and her relations will tell me what the odds are of her and her progeny doing the same. If she satisfies these requirements then I agree with some of the foreign studbooks that a mare of this type should be put into foal before she starts her ridden career and if she is put into foal at three, foals at four she can start competing at five in four year old classes (for having missed the year while breeding). If she is successful, she will already have stock on the ground (big bonus for a breeder). She can still retire to being a broodmare in later years with the bonus you know what she has bred and if that progeny is making its mark, then another tick in the box for the breeder.

One of my fillies from last year I hope will be a keeper. She is out of one of my broodmares who is by Stormhill Miller (GB) out of a Furisto dam. The mare is half sister to Paul Tapner’s horse Stormhill Michael (7th Saumur, 18th Badminton 2009). The filly is by Galloway (SF x Old) so on her sire line she has Galoubet, as well as Calando, Cor de La Bryere and Landgraf. On paper the filly should perform and be an ideal broodmare candidate – only time will tell. But at the end of the day both the filly and her dam are considered Irish Sport Horses unless I have them inspected by the Warm blood Studbook of Ireland and I have made no decisions on that yet.

I will continue to breed my mares with warm blood breeding to warm blood stallions and will continue to breed my TBs and Irish blood line mares to RIDs and TBs.

This is not succinct and has as ever turned into a ramble – apologies Alec.

Yes I agree, good mares should be the cornerstone. Ermm maybe I should have just put that at the beginning.

Yep Go Galway, I will be waving my flag at Cavan too but will have Crystal Swing on my IPod!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Hello all

THanks for a fasinating thread, i'm so glad to see a thread without all the self promotion and bickering and bitching that usually takes over in these threads. Any how I'm just wondering wheather that now due to the fact that the Irish Horse Board have approved all these stallions will the qualification system for the RDS change? ie will they let the Irish based foreign horses compete or the breeders-owners of foreign youngstock in Ireland be able to apply for a "GREEN" passport for those animals who's sire has just being approved? or are we going to continue with the "refguee status" where it is considered that if a foal is born here he is deemed to be "IRISH"
 
Once the foal is born in Ireland, it's elligible for the RDS qualifiers. That way the horse can be ISH, WSI, AES, IES etc and it's ok. Even if you buy a mare in from the continent that is in foal to a horse approved on the IHR and she foals in Ireland, that foal can jump in the RDS. The RDS goal is to look after Irish breeders so blue book, green book, white book regardless it can go to Dublin.
Any one go to Cavan? Stupid blizzard stopped me from heading up!!!
 
Loving this thread!

Don't forget that there is still an excellent market for the traditional ID x TB in the sport horse world. Jumbo in the UK is a very good example.....
 
Eothain said:
Any one go to Cavan? Stupid blizzard stopped me from heading up!!!
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I was wondering about that when I saw the weather forecast... I keep being drawn back to this thread and I have a question - mostly for you Eothain, but anyone else feel like giving their opinion, please go right ahead!

Ok, I don't for one second pretend to be a breeding expert, I'm quite an amateur, in fact, but I think I have an eye for a good horse, especially a good show jumper. So when I bought my broodmare, I considered her type and pedigree and although she is by Rich Rebel who is mostly a sire of eventers, she herself is very much a show jumper, in type and temperament. Irishlife was saying earlier that for a mare to be a good broodmare, her good points had to overall outweigh any bad points. I am realistic about the bad - a slight pigeon toe on one side and a very slightly heavy front end (the draught legacy, I believe :-)).
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My aim is to breed a performance SJ horse - one that could potentially go all the way to the top. But I am also a one-broodmare band, with a limited budget and let's face it, all my eggs in one basket. So when I chose a stallion, I looked for one that can jump, that looks like he is loving his job, that's got a natural uphill movement (to hopefully counteract the slightly heavy front of Madam) and whose pedigree I like... So, this year that was Bon Balou:
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He was only 3 years old and I loved his jumping technique, his look, the fact that he looks so game and I loved his pedigree. I’m French and was brought up flying the colours of Galoubet, the ultimate SJ! Then There is Argentinus, who sired my favourite SJ, <3 Arko <3 and also Landadel.

So for my question. If the foal pops out in a couple of weeks’ time and turns out to be a nice looking filly… would you consider her worthy of your breeding programme and if so why? and if not why not?
 
Bearskin said:
Loving this thread!

Don't forget that there is still an excellent market for the traditional ID x TB in the sport horse world. Jumbo in the UK is a very good example.....
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Bearskin, I'm glad you like this thread. I'm proud to be involved with it. I think it's been very productive too. It's like a big chat at this stage and all because I got very excited at the news of a few new stallions being granted approval! Funny how it snowballed into this epic 12 page thread! I know there is a huge market out there for nice, ordinary horses but my point is that I'm just not into that myself. If anything, I wouldn't even be happy to breed a horse that jumps on an Aga Khan team. I'd want to breed the entire team and reserve horse and ride on the team myself!!! But that's just me shooting for whatever is past the stars! Everybody else shoots for them, I like going a bit further than what most people aim for! (That last statement makes me sound like an arrogant b*****d. I'm not!)

As for you GinnieRedwings, my answer is yes. I like Rich Rebel actually. I know of a couple of horses by him who were 1.30 candidates but ended up in the hands of buffoons so went no further than local metre classes and the occasional 1.10m appearence! What's the mother of the Rich Rebel mare by?
I'd rate Rich Rebel ahead of some other thoroughbred stallions in Ireland who are quite hyped up as eventing sires
That's a nice stallion you chose there! I can't quite agree with you about Galoubet being the ultimate jumper as everybody in the Universe knows that title belongs to a certain icon by the name of Cruising! I'm quite fond of Galoubet's descendents too. Baloubet goes without saying but also Cabdulla Du Tillard, Ephebe For Ever and Cara Touche who I've mentioned several times in this topic, all carry his blood.
Balou Du Rouet carries Contender in his pedigree too, which is nice seeing as he's a stalwart of German breeding. I actually met him last year on my trip to Germany. Smashing horse! His handler told us that he has produced 256 international G.P winners at 3* level and above as well as producing 120 approved sons throughout the world. One of which is Montender, which surprisingly enough is a horse I intend to use!.
Argentinus ... What can I say that hasn't already been said? Sire of Cian O'Connor's 2004 Aga Khan team winning mare Irish Independent Annabella and Billy Twomey's super, multi-winning mare Anastacia, Marcus Ehning's 2003 World Cup winning mare Anka and dam sire to Dennis Lynch's Lantinus. What a stallion that Argentinus chap is!
I don't know too much about Landadel. Feel free to fill me in!

Why would I consider using her in a breeding program? Well, there's certain things I like to have in pedigrees. One of which is for a filly to be out of a mare by a thoroughbred. To me, that has the blood just close enough to the fore. I don't like horses to be too thoroughbred-y in their outlook. They can be needlessly sharp and silly then. I like then for a good jumping stallion to be put on that filly or a young horse with a superstar pedigree at least that should be a future jumper. Thank you for alerting me to this Bon Balou stallion. One to keep an eye out for!
On paper, your breeding decision ticks plenty of boxes for me!
 
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