Happy Days For ISH Breeders

[GinnieRedwings]

What's the mother of the Rich Rebel mare by?

My Rich Rebel mare's dam is an RID mare called Kilbiller Clover (Clover Hill x Legaun Prince).

I don't know too much about Landadel. Feel free to fill me in!

Just quoting the blurb from Flax Lion: “G Grandsire sire Landadel (1982-1996), is regarded as the most outstanding son of the legendary Landgraf I & carries a double dose of the great stallion Ladykiller.He is known as an outstanding producer of top performing offspring in Dressage and Jumping.In the 2001 World Cups, Landadel was unique in producing representatives in both the dressage and jumping finals, with the exquisite Leondardo da Vinci in the dressage (Gonnelien Rothenberger), and in the jumping, Little Gun (Helena Weinberg).He is the sire of over 66 licensed sons including Landor S & among others he is the grandsire of Dressage Grand Prix & Performance test winner August der Starke (Argentinus) & Stedinger”.
Also this article: http://www.horse-gate.com/hengste/storys/landadel/en/start.htm

Thank you for alerting me to this Bon Balou stallion. One to keep an eye out for!

He is starting his jumping career under saddle and there are a couple of videos of him jumping on Youtube. I hear he is restricted to Germany for the breeding season. Not sure why but I will ask Cheryl at Flax Lion. As he is only 4 this year, this will be his first crop of foals on the ground. Mine is one of only 6 in the UK.

On paper, your breeding decision ticks plenty of boxes for me!

Why, thank you! That means a lot from someone who is shooting for beyond the stars AND showed me where the emoticons are!!!

If the foal is a nice filly, I’ll let you know

 

[brianreid]

i am a young breeder only 18 and have to say that i have invested time and money in to my horses. I believe that Irish mares should only be cover to the irish horses. The main people that buy our horses are people like me who want a general horse to go hunting with, do a bit of jumping with and dressage, thats why the english bought our horses but we went to get all the europeans warmbloods horses and the english stopped buying horses off of us.. The europeans need our tb horses more then we need them. We sent all our good horses abroad and now we are taking the europeans bad horse... I have bred horse and find that the most sellable foal nowdays is the 3/4 bred horse aimed at eventing... If i wanted a High class showjumper or grand prix dressage horses i would go to holland or germany and pay good money for one. While for the allrounder i would buy irish all day long...

 

[Maesfen]

Thanks for that Brian; it's good to hear you're not all jumping ship and will still be breeding your lovely bread and butter horses that we need. I freely admit, I'm more than partial to a bit of irish in my horses!
I admire Eothain and others who are aiming so high, I do hope they reach the heights they are working so hard to achieve and will be one of the first to congratulate them but it is very important that the normal riders aren't ignored as a lot of them (me included!) would not be able to ride one side of the rejects from the 'superstar squads'.

 

[GrassHorse]

Its very hard to breed a showjumping horse capable of competing at world level. You won't breed one by luck, well maybe one if you're very lucky. I like it when dreams come true and I like dreamers. But realisticly you have very little chance of breeding that type of horse. This is unless you have a top class mare. A mare that 1. competed at 1.35m and above or 2. she is closely related to good horses that have jumped at this level. Preferably she will have jumped >1.35m and also came from a family of jumpers. If she only has the former, she COULD be a freak. You will not breed a world athlete from a mare if she doesn't meet one of these two criteria. Maybe, you're one of those rare genius's that can spot a talented mare, breed her to the right stallion and get a jumper. Most of the warmblood stallions in Ireland are world horses that have competed at international level. When using these warmblood stallions, to produce a top athlete, make sure the mare is as good as the stallion.

 

[Alec Swan]

I take it, GrassHorse, that the point which you are making, is that we need to look for the VITAL level of consistency, through the mare line. The odd one off isn't good enough, and I suppose that the exception doesn't always prove the rule. Am I wrong?

Dreaming isn't such a bad thing, providing that it sleeps with realism,,,,,,I think!

brianreid, there may well be some truth in what you say.

Alec.

 

[Halfstep]

Is there anywhere to vote for the best HHO thread of all time?


Because I think this one is a good runner for that prize!

Thanks everyone for their eloquent, informed, involved, and interesting input! (sorry bout that LOL). I've learned a lot from this thread, and am very happy to recognise that there is a new generation of Irish breeders (whatever they call their horses) who have their heads well and truly screwed on and are thinking carefully about what they are doing. I foresee that in 2020 the Olympic disciplines will be full of Irish bred horses - which is exactly where they belong!

 

[Irishlife]

IT has been a super thread and everybody is passionate in their own way and although we are taking different roads, everyone has the preservation of the Irish horse at heart but also recognises that whether warmbloods are used, Thoroughbreds, Draughts or a combination, we need to get our foundation mares right for this new wave of elite showjumpers that we hope will take the International circuit by storm.

Everybody no doubt has learned plenty and in ways probably polarised their viewpoint of the way forward whether a hobby or professional breeder.

This thread has confirmed to me that continuing to breed "bread and butter" from my wonderful TBs and ISH's and see them have successful careers at any level or on the hunting field with anyone is my foundation stone. My mares who have warmblood in their pedigrees will continue to be bred out to warmbloods with the resulting offspring hopefully finding a niche in the show jumping world or being used as a breeding mare to produce one.

Cheers everyone - its been emotional

 

[Eothain]

I concur. It has been a super thread. It's quite shocking how it snow balled into what it has. I mean, all I was doing was clicking my heels about Cumano and co getting approval! As for the mention of Grange Bouncer, that was originally an inside joke between myself and tiny trigger. ... Look what that turned into!
I'm a tad disappointed that the thread seems to have slowed down. I really enjoyed being involved with it and getting to give my opinion on the state of Irish breeding and how we go about improving it in the future. If that means a better general purpose horse for some or to breed with the hope that your horse will be in the main arena in Dublin on the magical first friday in August representing one of the world's top showjumping teams.

I don't think anyone is going to change their opinion of how best to breed what they're looking for. If anything, we'll all be even more sure in our belief of what we're doing!

Brian, we've all invested time and money in our horses. Too much money I bet! Regardless of that, Ireland will always have a leisure market for horses. I can only speak for myself when I say that I would not be happy breeding specifically for that market. It's just not me, I'm an all or nothing kind of person. In terms of getting high quality jumpers and dressage horses in from Holland and Germany, thats fine. If people want to do that then they're perfectly entitled to. However, I'd rather see Ireland producing a better standard of competition horse so that when the Cian O'Connor's and Conor Swail's are looking for horses, thst they'll spend their money on horses in Ireland. Keeping the money in this country, in our industry not in a Dutch or German's pocket. That's how we create a powerful, viable sector that can sustain itself and get the ISH studbook back to the top in the WBFSH rankings. We were number 1 for eventing last year, I think the dogs on the street know that title is heading to France this year. We're number 11 for showjumping and have 2 horses in the top 200 showjumpers. Not acceptable, something has to give. We don't feature in the breeding of Dressage horses at all so to get into the top 10 in that would certainly be an achievement. So while the hunting/riding club horses will always have a market and eventers too, we need to expand our market share for show jumpers. We need at least 10 horses in the top 200. Then the buyers will come back but when we start earning again, we need to keep the money circulating in this country by buying foals and three years for proper commercial prices that will motivate the average breeder, who wants to breed a horse to win the Dublin Grand Prix, to really put the time and effort into his breeding program. Then we'll have a commercial industry in this country comparable to our thoroughbred industry. As long as there's ID breeders, there'll always be general purpose horses. I will go to my death bed refusing to believe that we can't have both breeding policies in this country in the same studbook. We're lucky to have horses like Arkansas, Mermus R, Iroko, Russel, Lux Z and Luidam in this country and I feel it was an honour to have had Guidam stand here. He sired horses who took Team Gold, Individual Silver and Bronze at the last Olympics. I think the ship has sailed on the argument about Ireland having Europe's bad warmbloods. As for our 'good' thoroughbreds, where are they? Who are they? There's only a handful, if even that many.

One thing that I'd like to clear up, I was not talking about the likes of Dick Jennings, Philip Heenan or Betty Parker when I was talking about 1975-esque breeders. If they were still around, they'd still be on top of the breeding mountain. They were blessed with the gift of foresight, which many people weren't!

Alec, I hope you're no longer confused and bewildered!

I'll finish with this scary statistic:

63 horses are entered in the Grand Prix on sunday in Barndown. 35 of them are Irish bred. 15 of them are by foreign stallions. 5 have no breeding recorded. 2 are by thoroughbreds. 1 is by an RID. 3 are by Cruising and 1 is by a son of Cruising. Leaving 8 by other ISH stallions of which two are by foreign stallions. That makes for some awful depressing reading when you consider the big picture.

Cruising isn't covering anymore, both the thoroughbred sires are dead as is the RID sire. So where are we going? One thing for is sure, just like in Britain, it's a truly fascinating time to be a breeder in Ireland! I called this 'Happy Days For ISH Breeders'. My question now is, is it really? The future may well be, but certainly not now.

What's the chances of the H&H printing this thread in an upcoming edition?

 

[Simsar]

I too am disappointed this thread is slowing down, I think it has been educational to a lot of people, myself included.
I sort of ran out of steam from my side of the fence and so have been spending days trying to research traditional ISH mare lines(hard when dam's aren't always recorded), I will be back to this thread when I have collated all I want too, hopefully soon.

 

[Alec Swan]

Simsar,

Do it. I'm sure that your research, and gathered thoughts, will be of real interest.

Eothain,

This thread now seems to be separating into two parallel themes. One being Irish breeding, and the other being the principles of breeding, which itself seems to be split between the breeding of riding club or top competition horses.

That the Irish no longer seem to be self sufficient in the supply of stallions must be obvious. Is that a bad thing? Actually, probably not. The competition horse has changed and been refined over the last few years. Not only the horses, but in the case of eventing, then the courses too. Consider, for instance, the horse Jumbo. Were he now a young horse, and just embarking on his career, would he now be as successful as he was?

I was saddened to read the final set of statistics, which you offered. Do the suitable TB or RID stallions, simply not exist, or are they there but not being used? I did some modest research into finding suitable TB stallions which had been used to breed NH horses. The stud fees ran into the thousands, and as my mares aren't good enough to warrant that type of expense, then that was the end of that.

As others have said, this is truly a fascinating thread. Some points raised have reinforced my rather potted theories, but then there are those which have highlighted my own inadequacies! It's when I think that I'm making progress, that the enormity of learning throws it all into disarray!! I wonder if I'm alone in finding this thread rather humbling.

For myself, the principles which I apply, will probably remain, more or less, as they are, in that as I own the mare, and not the stallion, then I have to seek out those horses which will suit her, and that as I haven't got the faintest idea about stallion selection, then I shall continue to blunder along I suppose, accepting the generous advice which I'm given.

My, as you accurately described it, "bewilderment", focuses quite clearly on the principles of stallion selection, and perhaps more importantly, the required research. With TBs, it's a relatively simple matter. You go into Wetherby's website, you type in your mare's details, pay three quid or so, and bingo, up comes a listing of the stallions which others have used on mares with similar breeding.

There can be no doubt that the more experienced are those who consistently breed those horses which go on and succeed. Every success which I've ever had with breeding has been luck. Nothing more, or less!

This thread has been an absolute delight, and to add to Halfstep's comments, I would add the word "courteous", thanks, in no small measure, to the Irish offerings. Well done all of you.

In answer to your question Eothain, no I'm not there yet, but I'm certainly making progress!!

Right, and finally! Where do you see the future? How would any of you like to see the mind set of those who breed change, if indeed change is necessary?

Alec.

 

[TomReed]

I have been reading this thread with interest and I, too, applaud the spirit and tone that have characterized the discussion. In an article a year or so ago I wrote about the "learning community" that characterizes the Holsteiner breeders in Germany and most recently, in discussions with an official from the Royal Dublin Society (RDS), I highlighted the need to form a learning community within Ireland. The spirit in which this conversation has been conducted is exactly the spirit we need to make this a reality.

Here are a few points I would like to offer in relation to the breeding of international athletes. I offer these thoughts as someone who has breed three international showjumpers, two international eventers, and several approved/licensed stallions in the last ten years. (See www.morningside-stud.com)

The most important fundamental problem in Ireland is the dearth of excellent mares. I define an "excellent mare" as a mare that descends from a damline that has produced multiple athletes (unless it is a TB damline, in which case this is usually an unreasonable expectation) and is very athletic herself with functional conformation, good to exellent jumping ability, and ideally "blood" in her genotype and athletic expression.

The second fundamental problem is the typical breeder and the disconnect between what he or she hopes to breed (almost always a top-class showjumper or eventer) and the mare he or she brings to the party. Many of these mares could breed useful amateur horses or hunters (and these ARE legitimate breeding goals) but most of the breeders have the goal of producing competition horses and this is simply not going to happen on a reliable basis with the mares they are using.

The third fundamental problem is that Ireland became a dumping ground ten years ago for reject stallions from VDL and some other continental stud farms. Stallions that could not get approved on the continent (and in most cases were not even considered good enough to bring to a stallion inspection by their continental owners) were sent here on free leases or sold for small money (euro 5,000 - 10,000). These stallions often had very good pedigrees and breeders did not differentiate good paper from a good stallion. More recently we have been inundated with mature approved stallions sent here on leases. Breeders must ask themselves why a particular stallion is in Ireland on a lease. Is it because Ireland has a large pool of mares like Germany or France so a lot of money will be made? No, quite the opposite. Is it because Ireland has a pool of fantastic mares that will make a stallion's reputation or solidify an already good reputation? No, quite the opposite. Breeders need to become better consumers. And we still have here in Ireland stud farms that blantantly mis-represent the status of stallions. One farm publishes ads with a damline for their stallion when the stallion has no recorded dam or damline. Other farms say their stallions are "S1 Approved" when their is simply no classification of this type in Ireland -- an S1 stallion is NOT approved. Some farms say their stallions are Approved by the AES when, according to the AES' own homepage, the stallion is Registered and can only be used on the stallion owner's mares (and a maximum of 10 mares). A few stud farms have purchased top-class stallions but these are relatively few and far between.

What happens now?

The next wave will probably be Irish breeders bringing in on a much larger scale frozen and chilled semen from the continent. But this approach is doomed to failure because it does not address the most fundamental problem -- the quality of the mares -- and it ignores the fact that no breeding country has ever achieved excellence through imported semen.

 

[hilly]

Slow down? Not I but the demands of keeping Ark mares in ‘nothing’ husbands, feed in their buckets and vets in golf clubs meant work came first this week.

Some ‘quick’ responses from this page (but lots more later on previous ones..) ..

Ginnie, very nice foundation lines there that would work best with a blood-type sire so you’re on the right track - Clover & Legaun Prince will balance the Baloubet fire; Rich Rebel is a well-regarded event sire so a multi-purpose foal. I have one mare that would suit a warm blood and should her dance card ever clear, would choose Harlequin du Carel - four crosses of Orange Peel (Baloubet has a couple of crosses) which is difficult to find in TB lines here. See? I’m like warm bloods but like any breed, they have to suit the mare & vice versa and I have to see a market for the end product.

Brian - you are a breath of fresh air! Tell me you’re from the west of Ireland where pragmatic people are bred? Some examples of why you’re a dose of reality ..all from the mouths of young breeders:

“Carnival Night? What was he? A Draught?”

Eothain - look away. “Cruising.. Who’s he?” A response from young livery client when shown friend’s new arrival, a Cruising grand-son. Youngster can recite Moorland Totilas’ pedigree by heart and went to Olympia as a Christmas present but had not heard of Cruising.

“Where exactly would you find a curb?” from a ‘well-known’ young breeder at the sales ringside who had spent an hour berating the ‘traditional’ breeder beside him for being old-fashioned . Auctioneer had just called out the veterinary cert details which left the youngster flummoxed despite an ability to rhyme off every fashionable sire.

“He should breed eventers; he’s got a pretty head and have you seen his extended trot?”

You have made my day.

Everyone else is on the same boat - we know what we have to do. Breed from good mares. The Irish reality is only 100 mares have been identified in the mare herd , thanks to far-seeing owners with deep pockets , that have jumped 1.40m and are under 19 years of age.

Only five of these have produced progeny that jumped to 1.40m level.

We can’t keep blaming the TB sire scapegoat for these statistics as there are so many other factors. (for later!).

There is a growing resentment amongst Irish breeders that they’re being treated like village idiots. They KNOW what they have to do but there isn’t a magic wand solution that will put Irish-bred jumpers back on top in one generation.

And while the sky is falling in for show jumping-fixated breeders, the powers-that- be need to work on the eventing studbook NOW, not more expert groups in 2040 when we’re in 15th place in the WBFSH rankings. That lead will slip away too because it isn’t being salvaged now. In tandem with all the quick-fix show jumping solutions, there should be measures to identify successful eventing lines and mares; embryo transfer packages for advanced mares etc.

Eric - feel free to join the BBC - Bewildered Breeders Co-op. We’re off to the British Open this weekend to picket - we want show jumping courses changed to c.1950; eventing reverting to proper formats, not dumbed down handy hunter courses, and for Stephen Hadley to be reinstated as a show jumping commentator who knows what he’s talking about and is one of the greatest ambassadors for Irish horses.

Or come visit us at the Home for Bewildered Breeders - on Friday nights and Sunday afternoons we get to watch Hickstead Derby re-runs. Bring your own popcorn.

Eothain - you will not live down the Grange Bouncer/Huntingfield Rebel references.

I’m afraid I’m going to differ again with you on the Old Greats - they would not be at the top of their game now. An eye for a stallion has been replaced by charts and native breeds having to jump through circus hoops,. I would dearly love to know what Dick J would have thought of the present arrangement where stallions go to Traffic School and mares go back to the classroom to earn gold stars. All very laudable but in the middle of one of our worst recessions, not the best timing for stallion and mare owners.

Betty saw the writing on the wall and knew the glory days were over for show jumpers. The lovely thing about her was she was as proud of Sure Coin winning the Grand Prix as she would have been of Capitol Coin winning the Pony Club combined training class at Dublin last year. A truly remarkable lady.

Philip would not feature today. I’m sure if he was still alive he would still keep a couple of non-registered stallions for a trickle of loyal and local customers. He was a very shrewd characters and knew his 15 minutes of fame were due to the Clover Hill phenomenon with Ballinvella as a reliable second. Few have the patience today to sit on a railway sleeper bench for a day - it’s drive-thru studs , hyped-up stallions, all-dancing websites and $£€.

It was a golden age that couldn’t last but for me …now, THEY were happy days. Nostalgia is a dangerous thing but watching Philip at work - he was a genius and as good as a vet - or listening to other breeders - no big or small breeders in Philip’s eyes - queued on that bench was a priceless experience.

But everything is cyclical. Those days are long gone. Sadly, some of the main characters too which is why my Clover/Philip book project has gone on a tangent. Realised while researching the book how much of our equine history is slipping away; these older generation approach a computer with the same trepidation as ’Ben Parker’ the Alsatian pup Betty gave Philip in-lieu of a stud fee and who zealously guarded his yard.

Younger breeders can recite about Cardento, Cor de la Bryere, Landgraf etc because that information is easily accessible online - there‘s precious little about Irish greats. But these old boys (and girls) know! It is genuinely touching to spend a Sunday afternoon recording them - session starts off with the usual bashful response ‘sure why would you want to talk to me? I wouldn’t know a lot’ but once the ice is broken, amazing stories, gaps filled in half-forgotten pedigrees of stallions, mares and show jumping greats, even home-made recipes for neddy ailments long before homeopathic medicine became fashionable again.

Oh dear, I’ve gone over the H&H word count by now. But run out? A good ISH never runs out or slows down.

 

[angrovestud]

I have been watching this wonderful thread since it was first posted, and now feel brave enough to add a little something William Micklem has a wonderful Blog, and has researched the TB's that the Europeans use, he has Identified which TBs are useful for each sector Dressage, ShowJumping, and Eventing, I belive this to be a valuable benchmarking tool, so very useful to the breeder is the stallions he has indentified 250 TB sires which have been catagorised in to decades, so at least the breeder may go in search of these lines and may cross them with some degree of compatability for the job discription.

William does some wonderful research work very valuable.

http://www.barnmice.com/profiles/blogs/even-mark-todd-can-be-led-2

 

[Maesfen]

Hilly! I do want a copy of that book when it's complete, it sounds fascinating and you must have had so much fun researching it!

This thread has been a delight to read, so much so that I am going to print it out later so I can read it at my leisure without having to scroll back and to (geek, eek!)

Does anyone else think we should ask Admin to sticky this as not only a shining example of how civilised a thread should be but for the educational content it's given us? I can't think of another thread which has given me so much pleasure to read and learn from so a huge thank you to everyone who has taken part; it's been a absolute privilage.

 

[hilly]

Here are a few thoughts from an Irish Draught enthusiast :


1. The IHB contributed to the demise of the ID by performance testing ID stallions. When they did this they concentrated only on jumping ability and paid little or no consideration to correct conformation, good limbs etc that were found in the old draught mares. The legacy that the IHB left was lighter, poor limbed horses that were lacking in both quality and type.
2. What they should have done was to INSPECT and seek out top class TB's, not only as sires, but also good brood mares to cross with the ID stallions (although I accept the TB sire on the ID mare is best). The difficulty is that the TB type has changed as flat race breeding has been introduced into NH horses. The supply of the ''old fashioned'' National hunt horses is almost non existent.
3. The grants paid to AID mares contributed to the demise. It encouraged all farmer breeders to breed from anything that resembled an ID regardless of its quality and with no considerations to what the aims were, other than breeding a foal. That money should have been used to promote a selective breeding programme to preserve the best ID bloodlines, then cross the progeny with stallions as in [2]. That way we would have still had the show quality half-breds that we had 20 yrs ago, which are as rare as hens teeth now. If we wanted eventers, we could use a second cross of TB. Having said that, there are a lot of half-bred/ three eight ID's doing very well in eventing to International level ( e.g. Headley Brittania, Lenamore etc )

Irish Draughts - my personal views .. Where to begin? We have treated them abominably and were it not for the success of ‘Draughts’ like Clover, KOD and Pride of Shaunlara and a handful of dedicated breeders here and daughter societies worldwide, the breed would be in an even more precarious state.

I have to admire the chutzpah of Draught enthusiasts who claim those three as their own. It’s on a par with the KWPN! That trio were not Draughts - Clover was by Golden Beaker (TB); KOD had a TB grand-dam and Pride’s dam was by a blue-blood TB sire, Prefairy. But it was felt they had enough Draught characteristics and a dash of blood to upgrade mares, hence they were approved.

It was ONLY because of their TB fuel injection that they got jumpers and became success stories. Breeders jumped wholesale onto the Draught bandwagon, majority were disappointed with the results performance-wise and the Draught backlash began.

The Draught is a foundation breed. It is not a performance animal. The TB x ID cross was one of the, if not the very best, F1 crosses in animal breeding history - possible Furioso, Ladykiller, Son In Law - on French mares can claim the same success.

But I can’t think of any other foundation breed that has to jump through similar circus hoops - Gelderlanders, French trotters, Welsh ponies ..where else in the world are they performance tested? Irish Draughts can jump but ..my view ..their primary function is as a foundation breed and to perpetuate the best of the breed.

National Hunt sires..now there’s an interesting thought. I also wholeheartedly agree with Mary McCann’s recent comments about Connie sires being used to reinvigorate the breed; something I’ve often suggested amongst Draught circles.

Heresy to some but think about it; the real Draught is a bigger cousin of our native pony breed; they have the same characteristics - bone, temperament, fifth leg, the ability to thrive on fresh air and larger-than-life character. Perfect match and it will reduce the height.

Too-tall, leggy Draughts are viewed with suspicion because of possible cold blood ancestors. That aside, and a topic for another day, but looking to the future, say 50/60 years time .. is there a market for 17 hand monsters?

I think I mentioned Presenting in another thread - he is one of the most handsome and imposing sires in the flesh, selected by the late Liam Cashman, who sadly passed away recently and another gifted with an eye for a stallion. Although it would make a remarkable coup for the breed to have Presenting crossed with, say, the Dublin champion ID mares of recent years, more realistically I would love to see Presenting daughters in the mare herd.

Or Rain Trap, an Elite TB sire, built like a Quarter Horse and a very similar type to Prefairy. Both Presenting and Rain Trap also offer the Vimy line which is all but gone in our mare herd and for those interested in breeding eventers, this is gold dust.

I have no doubt that those behind grants for ID breeders had the very best intentions. It just went horribly wrong. Anyone who had an acre bought a ‘Draught’ or a ‘Connemara’ to cash in; likewise in our short-lived Celtic Tiger boom, people spent pounds to make pennies. What the majority bought may have had a Draught passport and secured a REPS grant/headage payment but had as much resemblance to a true Draught as a cat to a dog.

One of the few benefits to come out of the boom was those Draught breeders, who stuck with the breed when owning a Draught was like owning a Lada, finally got some financial reward when foals fetched up to 14k in the salesring. And more at home ..

Next likely scenario is those redundant ‘Draught’ scrubs will now be covered by warm bloods. Neither one thing or the other but will lead to more bloodbaths at the sales.

The Draught is a foundation breed; it’s role is to provide future stallion and broodmare material for Draught purists, heavyweight show hunters and cobs; police horses and a super-economical horse for the hunting/leisure market. Have you ever met a Draught that needed milk pellets or calmers?

When crossed with TBs, any resultant fillies will have a role in breeding sport horses, although most likely in the third/fourth generation.

Part-breds can do lots of jobs. Lenamore is indeed a gem. And others like him.

But to expect the pure Draught to be an all-singing, all-dancing world athlete? Nonsense.

 

[hilly]

Hilly, you are my soul mate. Absolutely brilliant posts, it is nice to have someone agreeing with me as I don't fully understand what is going on in Ireland as I live in Surrey!!! So have just been rambling my feelings and the little knowledge that I do have on the subject.

It really has turned into a great debate and I'm quite proud to have been part of it.

Simsar - thanks for ‘fighting’ the Draught corner. Like I said in the above post, it’s thanks to the enthusiasts in the UK and America that some rare bloodlines were preserved and they are a wonderful, noble breed. I would be greatly worried if you professed to have a big knowledge on the subject, there are perhaps too many Desk Experts and not enough foot soldiers so less is more.

Yes, the Irish background is very different. In my original post, I mentioned the ‘cash crop’ mentality amongst farmer-breeders so Draughts do have to pay their way here on farms and sentimentality is as rare as Irish-breds in the show jumping rankings right now.

I can see a meet-up at the Draught Show one day. Doris too.

p.s: How do I go Advanced and use proper emoticons? Are we talking Advanced Dressage or Eventing? Do I have to be performance tested. Oh never mind, these will do.

 

[hilly]

I was privileged to know Pat Geraghty and Carling King (briefly) and we had some fine times at Glenamaddy in the days (not that long ago) when the stallions would be fighting it out in 1.60 masters competitions - Coille Mor Hill (RID), Welcome Flagmount (RID deceased sad loss) and Captain Clover by Clover Hill (ISH). All different shapes and sizes but Irish and brave with a fifth leg when it mattered.

To Eothain, I was not suggesting that mares bred to genetically valuable stallions would not have good confomation, I just feel the match making should involve pedigree research in a considered process as the stakes are so high given AI variables, price of straws etc.
Also anothr Q for Eithain - do you intend to have any of your mares inspected by the Warmblood studbook of Ireland or will you stick with IHB?. I have one mare who would be eligible but then I am moving down a very different pathway......

I think Hilly said she would be in Cavan Tuesday, Eothain? anyone else? PM me and maybe we could all grab a drink at some stage during the evening.

Irish life - apologies. I was skimming through posts earlier this week and missed this Cavan suggestion. We got word on the way there about the cancellation so not too much of a road trip.

Glenamaddy was a fabulous place as Pat was such a kind host. I'm a big Captain Clover fan, he punches above his weight and one of the most quality Clover Hill sires around.

 

[hilly]

The best county? Galway? Puh-lease! Surely that's a mistake on your behalf. I was taking everything you had to say quite seriously. You know, really trying to take it on board like but then you go and make a comment like that! Completely undermining yourself. Galway ... pfff!


As for Ballyser Twilight being the last traditional ISH Dublin GP winner, I'm sure Mo Chroi (Cruising x Mister Lord) would take issue with that!

Eothain, I got it wrong. Mo Chroi was indeed the last Grand Prix winner. I could put it down to the MSG overload of that hastily-microwaved Sunday lunch after posting here ..but having seen what you’ve said about Galway..there will now be no humble pie for dessert.

WHAT has Offaly produced? Whereas Galway has produced the legendary Clover Hill; his son, Carling King - the best individual Olympic result by an Irish competitor - Imperial Commander’s jockey, Paddy Brennan, most popular race meeting - Galway Races; home of the Galway Blazers, Dubarry Boots AND the Connemara pony ..

Offaly? *thinks hard* Brian Cowen? Pride of Shaunlara?

Galway rules.

The only concession granted is if our esteemed Prime Minister does indeed make you Director of Horse Breeding that you put your Farmville habit to good use and make virtual horse-farming compulsory for Bandwagon Breeders instead of doing untold damage with the real herd.

I will be back later, once tongue has been unwelded from cheek, with more thoughts.

All jesting aside, yes, it is good to see a positive exchange of thoughts and ideas. Prior to the Ping! Sunday lunch, the last time I felt so nauseous on the HHO board was reading certain posts last year regarding British breeding.

If you can't say something positive or have some constructive suggestions, a gag snaffle is best used.

 

[pip6]

Realise this isn't part of the discussion, but wondered if any of you knowlegable ISH people would pm me. I have an ISH broodmare (by IDSH stallion out of nh tb mare) & would love more info on her breed lines. She has bred us 2 lovely girls (which we hope to sell for competition), with the stallion choice based on her conformation/temperament. It would be great to know more about her lines for future potential husband choices as my knowledge is strictly Crabbet arabs. Any willing volunteers please?

 

[Simsar]

Eothain I seem to remember you saying that you never had the chance to own a 'Cruising' well if you are interested I have just seen one for sale in H&H out of a Clover Hill mare, might be of interest to you??? Page 112, 2nd one down on left. Picture not great but might be worth a look as only a 4yr old??

 

[Blacklist]

"We seem to forget the origin of the Warmblood. Today, the term "Warmblood" refers to a specific subset of sport horse breeds that are used for competition in dressage and show jumping. Strictly speaking, the term "warm blood" refers to any cross between cold-blooded and hot-blooded breeds. These originate in crosses of Thoroughbred or Arab horses with European coach and draft horses or from mixtures.

As they originate from different lines with different purposes, the appearance of the warmblood breeds lies between the extremes Thoroughbred and draft horse. However, the term 'Warmblood' did once only apply in mainland Europe. International practice defined crosses and mixtures as "part-bred" or "half-bred". Examples include breeds such as the Irish Draught or the Cleveland Bay"

And of course some say that the original 'Irish Draught' a cross between a TB stallion and a Percheron/Shire/Clyde or other draught breed. Hunted one or two days a week, pulling half a plough etc on the other days.

Some seem to be forgetting the merits of the TB and draught horse mixture as foundation stock for the GB and Irish Sport Horse.

I could be old fashioned and out of touch - but many will agree with me (I hope)

Ireland has always produced excellent sport horses as has GB and I'm sure they will continue to do so.

 

[Eothain]

Eothain,

I was saddened to read the final set of statistics, which you offered. Do the suitable TB or RID stallions, simply not exist, or are they there but not being used? I did some modest research into finding suitable TB stallions which had been used to breed NH horses. The stud fees ran into the thousands, and as my mares aren't good enough to warrant that type of expense, then that was the end of that.

As others have said, this is truly a fascinating thread. Some points raised have reinforced my rather potted theories, but then there are those which have highlighted my own inadequacies! It's when I think that I'm making progress, that the enormity of learning throws it all into disarray!! I wonder if I'm alone in finding this thread rather humbling.

For myself, the principles which I apply, will probably remain, more or less, as they are, in that as I own the mare, and not the stallion, then I have to seek out those horses which will suit her, and that as I haven't got the faintest idea about stallion selection, then I shall continue to blunder along I suppose, accepting the generous advice which I'm given.

In answer to your question Eothain, no I'm not there yet, but I'm certainly making progress!!

Right, and finally! Where do you see the future? How would any of you like to see the mind set of those who breed change, if indeed change is necessary?

Alec.

Ok, in relation to the Grand Prix stats, the RID stallion mentioned is Glidawn Diamond, who grazes now in the paddock in the clouds. One of the ISH stallions who have progeny jumping this weekend is Coolcorron Cool Diamond who in turn, is by Glidawn Diamond. In my opinion, we're missing Draught stallions of his calibre and the country is all the poorer for his loss. Horses like him, Sea Crest, the Flagmount brothers and Diamond Lad don't come along very often and I think we need to make better use of the best of our home grown bloodlines. I know that for the next few years I'll be buying semen in from abroad and I might seem hypocritical but as I've said before, my goal is to produce a better quality mare to breed to the good younger ISH stallions to create new lines for breeding. At the same time, when we next a RID stallion rise above the rest, I'll be twisting people's arms to make sure he gets used on their best mares.
I will try my best to ensure that we never again see a day where stallions like Errigal Flight, Coevers Diamond Boy, Puissance, Clover Brigade and Clover Flush hit their twenties and have no sons to carry on their genes. I have organised three mares to go to Puissance this year and I am hunting for a colt foal by him and Errigal Flight. If I see one I like that might well make a stallion with a good damline then it will be mine, so help me God!
The same can be said for our thoroughbreds. We know we need them. There's no denying that at all. Where are they though? I mean, if a horse like Flemensfirth or Presenting were to cover a Sport Horse mare, then they would be cast aside in the thoroughbred world and be totally non-commercial. So we need somebody with deep pockets to go and buy a colt by one of these horses out a black type mare especially for the Sport Horse sector. Will it happen? I hope so but I doubt it. The thoroughbred stallion has changed from the big, rangey horse of yesteryear to the horse we have today.
I wonder has the fact that Irish racing is now the best in the world got anything to do with the decline in the old type thoroughbred? When we were producing the thoroughbred we still need today, Irish racing was considered the poor cousin to Britain and the U.S. Coincidence? I think not!

I do see a future for Irish breeding. We're facing into a hard slog to get back to the top. The only thing I want is acceptance from all sides that the sports we're breeding for have changed. Anybody who breeds a Nations Cup showjumper using traditional methods and thinking has my complete and utter respect for sticking to their guns and winning the shootout. Similarily, any one who breeds the same standard of horse using foreign horses also has my complete and utter respect for thinking outside the box and getting to their goal. Once the ISH studbook gets back into the overall top 5 in the WBFSH rankings in the next 10 or 15 years, I'll be happy. Then we'll have a commercially viable breeding sector. I don't care what goals people are breeding for, once you breed something that achieves what you aimed for.

 

[Alec Swan]

Eothain,

I've just got part way down your post and it can't wait!!

So you'd like a colt foal by Puissance, would you? Well, I happen to have one. Now 8 months old. Out of a mare by Lucky Gift ex a Ballyfrunct ID. The mare has a real jump. Two years ago, when the book for Master Imp was closed, his owners told the previous owners of our mare to get her over to Ireland, and they'd cover her.

If he's of any interest to you, then you'd better send me a PM, and a bit sharpish, he's due for gelding!!

Alec.

 

[GrassHorse]

I was talking with Dessie Noctor at Tara Hill Stud a few weeks ago. Dessie is a interesting guy. As a friend of mine said " a priest would'nt be trained to give as a good a serman as Noctor". Anyway, he showed me a mare and said thats the kind of mare you need to be breeding. The mare was a half clyde ( she was by an Irish Draught out of a clydesdale mare) and he said if you crossed her with a thoroughbred you would breed a real nice horse. I thought no more of this until a few days later when I was talking my friend. I was telling him about Dessie and what he had to say about "dumbloods", Dessie has no time for warmbloods. My friend only breeds to warmbloods but he is always open to what other people have to say. So I told him about the half clyde mare and what Dessie was saying. My friend said that his father who is long dead, god rest his soul, said the very same thing. His father always said that the Irish Draught got too much credit for the showjumpers of the past and that a lot to those show jumpers were out of half clyde mare.
Just thought that was an interesting story, anything to keep this tread going!

 

[Eothain]

Ok, now that the fish has been eaten, it's time for part 2.

Hilly, your stories about the young breeders are actually shocking. What's worse; people who have forgotten more than most people will ever know but are all too happy to turn a blind eye to advancements in sport and the like or people who are all a front and can rattle off pedigrees but not much else? ... Who's Cruising? What was Carnival Night? Rule #1 of anything: Know where you come from, know your roots.

I don't want to live down the Bouncer/Rebel quotes. I can't see them producing top class athletes and while they are among the best the ID have to offer, they highlight the need for opening the breeds borders to the Connemaras and some Thoroughbreds. I would like to see the ID as more than just foundation stock. Maybe they'll allow some Irish-bred progeny of Moorlands Totilas be registered as ID! Or am I playing the mad scientist again?

Simsar, I will have to have a look at said Cruising horse. Is it a mare? I've a couple of horses going to Goresbridge in May so maybe ... ... ..!

Alec, you geld away. Before I go looking for said colt foals, I've many many mouths to send to pastures new. All I can pay people with at the moment are I.O.Us!!!

Half-Clyde mares? Really? Now that is interesting!

 

[hilly]

I have been watching this wonderful thread since it was first posted, and now feel brave enough to add a little something William Micklem has a wonderful Blog, and has researched the TB's that the Europeans use

http://www.barnmice.com/profiles/blogs/even-mark-todd-can-be-led-2

Skipping a couple of posts which I'd like to respond to in more depth later .. and now there's William's blog to add to the To Do list! Didn't know he kept one but should be good reading. Thanks for the tip-off ;-)

Hilly! I do want a copy of that book when it's complete, it sounds fascinating and you must have had so much fun researching it!

Maybe too much fun at times! Vowed it would be the first and last book but there has been so much additional info gathered, (some not from Philip's friends/customers) that there is plenty of material for a second on these characters. Or publish it in a series of online articles once the Clover book is completed. The original transcripts from the interviews will also be made available to the History/Folklore department of UCG.

Actually, I wonder if there are any Clover Hill progeny owners on HHO with their own tales to add, there's a thought.

 

[hilly]

Realise this isn't part of the discussion, but wondered if any of you knowlegable ISH people would pm me. I have an ISH broodmare (by IDSH stallion out of nh tb mare) & would love more info on her breed lines. She has bred us 2 lovely girls (which we hope to sell for competition), with the stallion choice based on her conformation/temperament. It would be great to know more about her lines for future potential husband choices as my knowledge is strictly Crabbet arabs. Any willing volunteers please?

Yes, send it on. There's lots of online info available on the Irish Horse Board/Horse Sport Ireland current sires, foal registers and some of their marebooks - go to www.ihb.ie and check out Publications. That will give you a lead on the 'usual suspects', plus their progeny's performance records.

S1 or S2 stallions/long deceased ones are harder to access but I have the hard copy details going back to the 70's and am familiar with the majority of the old-timers so might be able to help.

 

[ruby1]

What a wonderfully,educating and friendly post. I have enjoyed reading every word and like a good book i have continued to come back for more,long may it continue.

 

[hilly]

"We seem to forget the origin of the Warmblood. Today, the term "Warmblood" refers to a specific subset of sport horse breeds that are used for competition in dressage and show jumping. Strictly speaking, the term "warm blood" refers to any cross between cold-blooded and hot-blooded breeds. These originate in crosses of Thoroughbred or Arab horses with European coach and draft horses or from mixtures.

As they originate from different lines with different purposes, the appearance of the warmblood breeds lies between the extremes Thoroughbred and draft horse. However, the term 'Warmblood' did once only apply in mainland Europe. International practice defined crosses and mixtures as "part-bred" or "half-bred". Examples include breeds such as the Irish Draught or the Cleveland Bay"

And of course some say that the original 'Irish Draught' a cross between a TB stallion and a Percheron/Shire/Clyde or other draught breed. Hunted one or two days a week, pulling half a plough etc on the other days.

Some seem to be forgetting the merits of the TB and draught horse mixture as foundation stock for the GB and Irish Sport Horse.

I could be old fashioned and out of touch - but many will agree with me (I hope)

Ireland has always produced excellent sport horses as has GB and I'm sure they will continue to do so.

I would certainly agree that a warmblood is a mixture of hot and cold blooded-breeds - one of the apt description of the Irish sporthorse is a 'glorious mongrel'. The Irish Draught was not so much a cold blood or heavy draught type (as in Percheron, Shire or Clydesdale) but a halfway horse between the two. The origins of the Draught go back to the Irish hobby horse of medieval times; the main overseas blood actually came from Andulasian blood when Spanish traders exported horses to Ireland. You can still see this influence today, centuries later, from the convex profile to high action and dishing in some cases; flea-bitten greys are known to this day in parts of Co Cork as 'Spanish horses'.

There were other influences, Cleveland Bays, Welsh cobs and the heavy draught breeds but they are now very much frowned upon by Draught breeders. White above the knee or splashes of white on bellies are considered signs of heavy draught markings; flat feet, long backs and round, rather than flat bone, are other hints.

The traditional Draught was a short-legged, compact type, very nimble action and very different from the taller, coarser types found where the Shires and Clydes were imported for transport and farm work.

Because they were powerful but an athletic type of Draught, the Irish version was 'conscripted' in vast numbers for various European armies. Like many studbooks, the breed suffered huge losses in WWI, to a lesser extent in WWII while food shortages in post-war years meant a demand for horsemeat, particularly in mainland Europe. Not surprisingly, the British market was squeamish about this commodity with many housewives using their ration as pet food instead.

Over the course of WWI, 8 million horses were killed. Not only the Irish Draught, but all the breeds used by European cavalry had untold damage done to their bloodlines. A little-know but main reason the German, French and Austrian cavalry remount officers sourced TB stallions in the British Isles from the nineteenth century onwards was nothing to do with laying down the foundation of the modern warmblood but to upgrade native mares to produce cavalry horses. Likewise, premium classes held at agricultural shows in the British Isles were designed to improve the pool of available remounts, this was part of the original remit of the HIS and the Royal Agricultural Society.

Showjumping and eventing were completely military-orientated pastimes in the beginning of the sports; cavalry officers were encouraged to hunt to improve their seat and many of the great instructors, de Nemethy, Rodzianko and Wofford were graduates of cavalry schools.

So some positive outcomes but the background to the modern warmblood - and the Irish sporthorse is one in many respects - had little to do with shaping future competition horses but a much more strategic aim.

Anyhow, gone into History Mode. Normal service will now resume.

I was talking with Dessie Noctor at Tara Hill Stud a few weeks ago. Dessie is a interesting guy. As a friend of mine said " a priest would'nt be trained to give as a good a serman as Noctor". Anyway, he showed me a mare and said thats the kind of mare you need to be breeding. The mare was a half clyde ( she was by an Irish Draught out of a clydesdale mare) and he said if you crossed her with a thoroughbred you would breed a real nice horse. I thought no more of this until a few days later when I was talking my friend. I was telling him about Dessie and what he had to say about "dumbloods", Dessie has no time for warmbloods. My friend only breeds to warmbloods but he is always open to what other people have to say. So I told him about the half clyde mare and what Dessie was saying. My friend said that his father who is long dead, god rest his soul, said the very same thing. His father always said that the Irish Draught got too much credit for the showjumpers of the past and that a lot to those show jumpers were out of half clyde mare.
Just thought that was an interesting story, anything to keep this tread going!

Dessie is quite a character! Mentioned -all going well at foaling and if we get a filly foal - that the next & final husband for my Clover Hill mare is a Connemara, Dessie has booked it if it's a colt! Looking for a Connie x Clover Hill or Diamond Lad cross as he reckons there's a huge demand for such a handy type but thought no owner of such mares would use a Connie. *waves hand*

His neighbour, Ned Byrne, bred a colt foal by the local Thoroughbred down the road, from such a Clydesdale/Connemara mare - the end result was Ryan's Son and she was the mare mentioned earlier who failed two Bord na gCapall (Horse Board's predecssor) inspections. Go figure.

While the Clyde influence is very much frowned upon in Draught circles, they do feature in back pedigrees of some famous showjumpers, some of the golden oldies here will remember Janet Hunter's Lisnamarrow - another TB x part-Clyde. There have always been whispers about Clover Hill having Scottish ancestors too ..

 

[Irishlife]

Hi All

A bit of a random post but still on topic.

Hilly, fascinating stuff as ever. I also read recently that the American Quarter Horse descends from the early exports of draughts to North America, again it mentions also the influence of Spanish horses. Must be where quarter horses get their huge backsides from! I must also say - the Ghareeb foals (pictures in another post) - fabulous. They are exquisite. Ghareeb can do no wrong in my eyes and will look forward to the Watermill Swatch pictures in due course.
Kylemore do stand some good sorts. I wasn't especially impressed with French Buffet but have seen some lovely offspring.

Thoroughbreds x Connemaras without doubt the most underated of all Irish breds. I showjumped and hunted them as a teenager and my daughter started her riding career on them. We presently have a 15 year old show hunter who not only excelled at that job but won Prelim dressage champs, showjumps at 1.20, won a couple of one day training events and still hunts like the clappers all winter. He is by a TB called Brevet (Busted, Crepello et al) out of a Connemara mare - I wish every teenager could have one - brilliant creatures . They are as handy as cats, brave, intelligent and beautiful to look at with all the best qualities of both breeds.

My daughter was interviewed for Ireland's Equestrian magazine a couple of years ago representing the views of a young breeder along with Claire McDonnell (Mo Chroi), Luke Morley (mare Leader Star), Loftus O'Neill and William Little (not a warmblood breeder in sight!!). She promoted the TB x CP cross as something that should be utilised more. I have always loved them anyway so this year our small TB will be having a liaison with a Connemara stallion this year which is something a bit different for us.

Rambling on.............

I am sure many of us here have read it , but for those who have not, I thoroughly recommend a called "Breakfast the Night Before (Recollections of an Irish Horse Breeder)" by Marjorie Quarton. For anyone wishing to follow a lifetime spent moving from fair to fair, buying remounts for the military and breeding and breaking a few plus the inevitable "characters" littered along the way, it is essental reading and quite one of my favourites.

Still dithering over stallions but off to a stallion parade on Monday and the re-scheduled Cavan. Hopefully I will make my decisions this week.

Happy Easter Everyone and may all your foals be fillies