Happy Days For ISH Breeders

MFH9,

if you're that keen on a sticky, why not start a fresh thread, with a sheet which we can all add our names to, and then it can be offered up to our hosts, by way of a survey?!

I'd certainly sign up for it. There's been a degree of drivel, mostly mine, which could be edited. The salient points are none-the-less, fascinating, informative and if only for me, a serious learning curve.

DO IT!!

Alec.
 
Alec, I've already posted asking for this to become a sticky in the Suggestions forum, I would feel a bit pushy doing a seperate thread/poll about it but if anyone else wants to, I hope they do and I'll sign up definitely. It seems Simsar has had a word too if you take a looksee above your post.
 
Often I hear people say "all the good mares were sold out of Ireland". I dissagree with this. I think we still have plenty good mares here. I will tell you a sad story first. Cruising has family, they are all in sweden. The have all been crossed to warmbloods. There are about 20 horses in Sweden related to Cruising on his dam side. Right Idea is a full sister to Cruisings grand dam Big Idea. Right Idea and her sisters went to sweden years ago and they a have now started a very good family of swedish sporthorses. Ballymena Park is another mare that should never have left Ireland. I sure everyone knows of other mares that have gone abroad and left nothing behind.
To Eothain, Ryanair are doing good deals to Sweden at the moment!

Getting back to the mares we have. There are still some very good mares in Ireland. I estimate there are 10 to 15 mare families in Irealand that are of international standard. Carrigbrahan Lady line, Kilkenny Lady line, Trixie Lady line, Roadstown Gold line etc..The problem is, they are been crossed with Warmbloods. Im not totally against this, I just think it's sad. I think Horse Sport Ireland needs to subsidize breeders, who have internationally related mares, to breed one fully Irish filly.
If anyone has other stories of Irish mares that have gone abroad and have started studbooks, I would like to hear them.
 
Hi IL thank you for the lovely words about my horses :) & the Knabs. I hope to breed one of the TB mares to an Irish only jumping stallion if she obliges, so loving the info on this thread.
That spotty boy in Ireland is very cute as well :) I might have to try & breed a spotty ISH.

I love my Danish Knabs and am very happy to say one of my mares has an Irish mare in there :) Heehee close your ears Knab purists! Fifth generation a mare called Slieve Dart presumably exported to Denmark way back then and she was by Hail Titan xx and a mare Blackwater Rose by Blackwater Lad. That mare line produced a very decent jumping Knab mare who jumped with a young rider in Denmark which of course must be due to the Irish bloodlines!! :) Kind of links in with what Grasshorse was saying, those Irish mares get everywhere :)
 
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I love my Danish Knabs and am very happy to say one of my mares has an Irish mare in there :) Heehee close your ears Knab purists! Fifth generation a mare called Slieve Dart presumably exported to Denmark way back then and she was by Hail Titan xx and a mare Blackwater Rose by Blackwater Lad. That mare line produced a very decent jumping Knab mare who jumped with a young rider in Denmark which of course must be due to the Irish bloodlines!! :) Kind of links in with what Grasshorse was saying, those Irish mares get everywhere :)
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Well, Hilly will sort me out if I am wrong but I believe Hail Titan was the sire of David Broome's Lannegan who won an Olympic medal in Stockholm. So no surprises there. David rode Irish all the way back then.

There was a lot of exporting of mares going on and when I was UK based, I was offered 10K for my good Irish mare to go to Belgium as a brood mare. Serious money in 1989. I declined the offer and the mare who was the love of my life died at 25 three or four years ago in the back garden of old age. She was a typical Irish horse that went to Britain without any recorded breeding sadly but what a mare.

I will go on the waiting list for a perfectly blanket spotted ISH please.:)
 
When Jay Bowe had a mare at the RDS in 1994. A Dutch guy offered him 20k to buy her. Jay said " all the money in Holland wouldn't buy this mare". Jay reckons they're the one's you need to hold onto.

You did the right thing by not selling her!
 
Irishlife said:
Well, Hilly will sort me out if I am wrong but I believe Hail Titan was the sire of David Broome's Lannegan who won an Olympic medal in Stockholm. So no surprises there. David rode Irish all the way back then.
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He was indeed although Lannegan was his only claim to fame so there has been some conjecture. There was a veritable gold vein of TB stallions in Mayo - Final Problem (Lannegan's damsire), Stone Fox, Station Master and Seana Sgeal which was by Arkle's sire, Archive and produced the most wonderful half-bred mares.

I think it may have been the World Equestrian Games though? :) David has been an ambassador for Irish-breds for decades but the Stockholm Olympics may have been just before his and Lannegan's time. ;)
 
GrassHorse said:
When Jay Bowe had a mare at the RDS in 1994. A Dutch guy offered him 20k to buy her. Jay said " all the money in Holland wouldn't buy this mare". Jay reckons they're the one's you need to hold onto.

You did the right thing by not selling her!
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Alas, not all owners were, or could be, as far-seeing as Jay. He's another legend and gifted at handling stallions and youngstock. His patience paid off because he's got great eventing lines built up in his mare herd and must be the only stallion owner with four progeny by three of his stallions in this year's Badminton entries?
 
MFH9 said:
I wish I had C & P'd into a Word doc', then I could have used smaller fonts and not used half as many pages. Live and learn, live and learn, lol!
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Just as with horse-breeding! :D
I was also going to suggest just cut n'pasting what you needed into a Word doc.

Matters not a whit about whether the post remains a sticky or not, those that got something from it already have. :)
 
hilly said:
Alas, not all owners were, or could be, as far-seeing as Jay. He's another legend and gifted at handling stallions and youngstock. His patience paid off because he's got great eventing lines built up in his mare herd and must be the only stallion owner with four progeny by three of his stallions in this year's Badminton entries?
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Yeah, you would have to admire Jay. He has some great mares. Irish mares that are some of the best eventing broodmares in the world!
 
Eothain said:
Well this has gotten horribly off topic! What's with all the photos of the ears?
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a1b2c3 said:
Eothain, "all the better to listen with", so I'm constantly advised!

Alec.
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Alec - a man that listens. Excellent. :D

Eothain, there was a reason for building the towers guarding the Shannon at strategic points - to keep out the Offaly sense of ‘humour’. There are many worse things that can happen than pet subjects going ‘horribly off topic’ and photos of big ears have illustrated there are lots of hints to Irish horse’s ancestry for those interested in that topic, including the proud owners of such well-endowed creatures. And if the continuing appeal of this thread is sharing thoughts and first-hand experiences with other breeders, even from those dreaded decades ago, you shall have to bear with the meanderings and diversions with good grace. :)

One of the best conversations I ‘never’ had was with a famous warmblood breeder; the usual polite stock responses until a very mischievous sense of humour took over. I didn’t get enough material for an article as pleas for anything other than off -the-record libellous material were met with a big grin, “What do I know? I breed a handful of freaks for a handful of riders that can manage them and the not-so-good are sold as dreams to amateurs. Keep your bank manager happy because horses are risky business and enjoy your good fortune while it lasts. It could end tomorrow but you keep smiling and then you start another business”.

More cryptic than an episode of Lost but I like these breeders with a GSOH who keep their feet firmly on the ground and know, despite all the scientific whittling, dissections and endless analysis in the world, that horse-breeding is a very fickle ‘industry’.

Everything starts at the beginning so having quickly re-scanned through the earlier posts - Orestus is standing in Ireland now; there is also good news about another stallion in the pipeline, have the Rescue Remedy on standby, Eothain. ;)

The earlier posts about certain Irish Draught stallions have already dealt with but having seen that another stallion recommendations post has been removed, (unless I need to go to Specsavers as well as up the Omega 3 dose? :cool:) the wisest policy is unless you have something worthwhile/constructive to say about a stallion, best to say nothing in public or name names.

Virtual world is a small one, word spreads quickly and you can insult a stallion owner about anything else, including his wife (OH/husband/partner etc) but not his or her stallion (s).

Which brings me to Cavalier! Being constructive, he brought jump into the equation; his progeny were very sound and he brought good feet to the mix as some Irish mare’s feet, due to a variety of ancestors, were prone to ailments that showed up on progeny’s on x-rays. Being diplomatic, he could have had a better hindleg/hocks, but it worked out with Irish mare’s powerful quarters/hindlegs. He had lots of blood and nicked very well with the Irish mare and landed on his sound feet with the Hughes mare herd to set him on his career.

Produced some very good jumpers at 1.50m GP level - who wouldn’t want to breed those? Possibly his best SJ performer was Chippison, best of the Irish team at the Aachen WEG - however, his eventing progeny, including Ben Along Time, went all the way to winning a World Cup Eventing final and several Olympic horses, including Ben and Mary King’s Call Again Cavalier.

Has he proved as good a sire of sires as the other two C’s - Clover Hill or Cruising? Not quite yet. His deceased son, High Roller, is proving a useful eventing sire; Chippison’s progeny are just coming out under saddle so time there yet.

Cavalier excluded, the majority of early warm blood cast-offs standing here were no advertisement. Their conformation, either old-fashioned heavy types, or swan-necked-lop-eared-tubular-bodied-sickle-hocked-boxy feet were an affront to the eye. ‘But his sire is by XYZ’. As useful as saying a horse is Cavalier x Cruising x Clover Hill. Fantastic on paper but competition sires either have to prove it themselves or through their progeny.

Clover - ah, what a horse. I would post pictures but that may induce more protests. :D So you’ll just have to settle for a virtual picture of a brown overgrown Welsh Cob with massive .. can I say the e-word? Ears. His looks belied his pedigree as his male tail line included Precipitation and Arctic Star, which linked him to another good sire of the 1980s - Artic Que, sire of the Army Equitation school stalwart, Glendalough. At the height of Glendalough’s career, his sire stood for £1,000 - Clover remained at a token £30, having started at £10. Profitable days.

My own personal thought is Clover is proving a ‘better’ sire of sires because of his TB sire; you can be more sure of results with a close pure ancestor or else, as with cross-breds, having to resort to in/linebreeding. The majority of his progeny also have/had lovely temperaments. Just yesterday, got an email from a trainer whose client, a busy businessman, had a couple of great outings with his Clover Hill horse; ’only’ at 1.30m but horse patiently carried his amateur owner round while ’winking’ at the trainer each time he passed by. You can’t buy testimonials like that about the good nature of the Irish horse.

It reminded of my first summer spent in a busy American yard - best of times. :D Abdullah and Mill Pearl literally lived up the road, Gem Twist, one of my all-time favourite show jumpers, was at the top of his game so regularly saw him in action. There was one flashy European-bred in my row; naturally, his Wall Street owner would have to micro-manage time to get out from the city to ride him so duly tipped-off, Buckaroo had to be double-lunged and ridden for 2 hours before her arrival. ‘He’s soooo good!’ - neddy & I looked at one another, one more weary than the other. When I did question these tactics, barn owner shrugged ‘She’s happy, she pays the bills - we all get paid, that’s business’.

Not all Clover’s progeny were ‘beginner’s ponies’ - there are few ‘easy’ animals capable of competing at 1.50/1.60m level for years but when they’re wound down, the typical Clover Hill is amongst the most placid you can find. And his daughters are welcomed at studs whereas other hot-headed progeny are not exactly met with a party or much enthusiasm.

Carling King went all the way to the Olympics; best Irish individual result ever, (4th at Athens); also won the King George V Cup, (as did Dublin Grand Prix winner, Ballaseyr Twilight while the Clover Hill mare, Flo Jo won the Queen Elizabeth Cup twice). CK clinched Ireland’s qualification for Athens with his performance at the European Championships at Donaueschingen and was part of the historic Irish gold medal team at the previous Europeans at Arnhem in 2001. Amazing horse but also an amazing team horse who could have stayed on the lucrative US Grand Prix circuit instead of transatlantic shuttles every couple of weeks at the height of his career.

Like Cavalier and Cruising, Clover will feature in eventing pedigrees, though more removed - his grand-son, Tankers Town (s. Diamond Clover) competed at Hong Kong as did another grand-son, Fernhill Clover Mist (Kiltealy Spring x Clover Hill) so I expect to see that influence continuing.

We have seen the last of his progeny though. Please note: Clover Hill died in 1997. His last foals are now 12. Nothing provokes an attack of Keyboard Crib-biting quicker than seeing a ‘Clover Hill 5yo’ advertised online in H&H. Not possible. Grand-son, yes. The ‘funny’ - and we all need a sense of humour breeding horses - fact about Clover’s stud career is his best progeny came from his earliest mares; as the quality and performance mares increasingly went to him …not as many.

For me, the salient lesson from last weekend’s Grand Prix starter list is not the ingredients list of the Irish-breds but the fact that the other half were sourced abroad. What is that telling us? That it’s easier and fashionable to go to Europe where there is an ample supply of such horses?

The ingredients list of the Hong Kong Olympics show jumpers next. And lots more, such as the production of young horses. But now mindful of the Warmblood Guru’s advice about keeping bank managers happy, it will have to wait. ;)
 
Irishlife said:
I will go on the waiting list for a perfectly blanket spotted ISH please.:)
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Well, Irishlife, the 2010 foal isn't yet born, but I am already planning the 2011 one out of my ISH Rich Rebel x Clover Hill mare... :D He is a fewspot knabby called Mikker - he throws more leopard spots than blankets on plain mares though, but in the event of a blanket, I'll PM you :D ;)
 
[QUOTE..... As useful as saying a horse is Cavalier x Cruising x Clover Hill. Fantastic on paper but competition sires either have to prove it themselves or through their progeny......[/QUOTE]

hilly, never a truer word.

I've asked the question before, and I think that it bears repeating "What of the future?". It's been quite enthralling reading of the best of the Irish sires, and all probably un-researched, but remembered in astounding detail. When these stallions were in their comparative youth, were they recognised for their worth? Later on then of course they were.

Where are the comparatively young stallions which those who are qualified to judge, will bemoan the passing of, or the sale to the Continent, in twenty years time? It is a great shame, I suppose, though entirely understandable, that a stallion, or a potential brood mare for that matter, which shows very real promise will be snapped up by foreign buyers. Blame for such a sale cannot be laid at the door of the vendor.

I'm just wondering if there were some sort of Government Premium, payable to those stallion owners who ensure that the very best of the Irish stallions remain where they are. Horses in Ireland tend to be viewed, I suspect as livestock and probably rightly. Were Defra, or your equivalent(?), to support a potentially huge and still growing industry, then parting with these horses would make little sense, for the owners, and it may even help reduce the stud fees!

Would it be such a bad idea to have State supported, but privately owned Stallions, and brood mares? Consider the boost to the Irish economy.

MFH9, Pat, the response from the H&H wont do at all! I suppose that if we paid for it then we could stamp our feet, as it's free, then we can't! Criteria? what Criteria? As you said, Humbug(ger).....!

You wouldn't believe the hours which I've both waisted and enjoyed, reading through the collective thoughts of you all. I'm in the middle of lambing an awful lot of sheep, and I really must go and look at them.

The future. How would you see progress?

Alec.
 
Hi Alec

I have often thought there should be substantial subsidies for inspected and approved mares. There are colt retention schemes with premiums paid to qualifying colts to encourage owners to keep colts entire until they are 3 years old.

The same applies to mares, RIDs, Sporthorses who all have the opportunity to gain premium status in the studbook.

However, the Irish Horse Board is not wealthy and could not afford to subsidise horses to any significant degree. Horses are indeed "livestock" and under REPS (similar in UK set aside and certain farming practices??) RID horses and Connemaras are paid a headage allowance and the department has designated horses as agricultural animals. Consequently passport control is strict and food chain considerations, meds etc same as if you have cattle (although not really strictly enforced).

Compared to the UK our stud fees are very reasonable. It only goes stratospheric for really, really top performance stallions. A very good RID would be about 450 -500 euro, sportshorse the same and Cruising and the like around 3000.

It is market forces to a degree and if horses are doing well, they will buy a few mares and ride the wave and when cattle are doing better, the horses go by the wayside. Its a case of "money in the pocket" to a degree.

I am sure Hilly et al will expand further
 
The French system (and I believe the German one too) is quite good that way. There is a national breeding programme which is aimed at producing top quality performance horses, as well as safekeeping certain traditional breeds (the percheron, especially). The national studs run alongside the private studs, obviously, but following a specific breeding programme which is not profit-related.

The stallions and broodmares are state-owned and the studs are run by the military. The youngsters produced are broken in and assessed/performance tested at 3 years old to decide what sort of "life" they should have.

According to the performance test results, the youngsters will be offered out for loan to riders, some to the top show jump/event riders, some to various riding schools who have signed up for the scheme. My first grade C successes were on a fantastic little SF mare produced by the National Stud system and loaned out to the riding school I frequented.

These horses can normally not be sold on and remain the property of the French nation and can be recalled for stud duty as/when required.
 
Alec, I've given you my thoughts on the future. I've been waiting on you to come back to me regarding them.

Hilly, go on so, I'll "allow" you post ear pictures so ;)

As long as the country is plummeting towards financial ruin, thanks in part to my fellow townsman Captain Cowen, there'll be no State Aid for studs. A Labour MEP complained to the EU about our Stallion tax exemption and that had to be done away with so can't see the Government buying mares and stallions for the time being!!!!! Pity

I'll do a post of young horse production some time closer to the weekend. It'll be another essay I think.

And as for the afforementioned Irish Draught stallions, I don't think I was hard or negative towards them. Honest, yes but an opinion is just that. I mean, opinions are like a**eholes, everybody has one! I certainly didn't bad mouth them.

I also found out from a reliable source that Errigal Flight's owner has purchased a colt by Errigal Flight out of a well related Clover Brigade x Maculata mare with the goal of stallion retention. Happy Days For ISH Breeders.

Will likely not be on tomorrow, Cavan stallion parade is on. Might see you there!
 
irishdraught said:
I think it's great for Ireland that you now have those stallions approved, but to me, the "Irish" sports horse will be just that, ID or connemara crossed with TB.

That is what Ireland is famous for and that is why people keep going back to Ireland for their eventers.

There just seems to be so many registers popping up, I find it confusing and repetitive.

I may be missing the point and please forgive me if I am but I hope that this "modern" breeding does not cause the demise of what Ireland already has. I personally think that the 1975 Irish Draught breeders perhaps have reason for opposition.
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Totally agree, I love the Irish breeds and not a fan of the continental breeds at all.
 
rebel mountain said:
what about harlequin du carel and now fully approved
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Harlequin du Carel is very popular with a neighbour of mine who uses him frequently. I do not know much more except he has produced some jumping stock to Grand Prix (possibly international,I'm not sure).

I am actually quite partial to SF lines as used to ride and breed them back in the day. I find them similar to Irish horses in so much as they seem to be a bit sharper and a bit more individual, but there again they have Tbs, Anglo Normans, Trotters and Anglo Arabs in the SF mix so that gives you an extra dimension in my opinion.
 
he is getting a huge book of mares in 2008 he registered 110 foals and al l good pedigree's cruisings ,clover hill's,cavaliers,diamond lad's and sky boy's to name just a few
 
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