Has your horse ever "tied up".

[ycbm]

http://www.laboklin.co.uk/laboklin/GeneticDiseases.jsp


I used these , they were very quick. They are in Manchester.


The .eu one above is in the US, the other is Cambridge.

 

[ycbm]

My friends tb/shire mare has tied up a few times. Owned since a 6 year old, broken at 5. 13 years old the first time she did it. Then was kept out during the day and in at night, o a fibre only diet. Fit and ridden at least 5x a week. When she did it had been ridden last few days and did not more work than normal. Sunny day but not hot. Vet attended, was box rested for 24 hours then in a pen. Was fine after a few days and ridden lightly. Came in from the field lame having damaged a joint shortly after. No connection was made at the time.
3 years later, she was very quiet when she is usually wired to the moon. Vet was called and bloods taken. Showed raised muscle enzymes. By this point vets had an internal medicine specialist, who was surprised that one of ours had tied up due to our management routine, which by this point was out 24/7 and ulcer kind diet. He took a biopsy and it came back with nothing. Shortly after returning to work, she blew a tendon. He felt it was linked.
She did a similar thing a few years later, and then went lame. With this mare it seems to be when something is niggling under the surface. Her more recent episodes, of which there have been 3 have all been linked with lameness.

This one sounds like a possibility for ESPA, known as degenerative suspensory ligament disease until they realised it was a systemic problem and not just the suspensories.

 

[FfionWinnie]

Our British Appaloosa tied up six weeks ago.
Bloods came back as normal so vet thinks it's a one off.
He is type on negative as both parents are registered with the British Appaloosa Society and they have to have the tail hair test for type one.

I am still interested in the type two test when.it comes out just as I am still suspect but can't put my finger on it.

He is on thunder Brooks herbal chaff and progressive earth pro hoof balance and their vit e powder.

It's the only way I can get anything into him as he is very very fussy.

The type two test is available in America but not for outside America yet. It is equiseq who are offering it.

Type 2 is a little different to type 1 and I believe more of a muscle wasting disease. Type 1s tend to do best with lots of exercise pretty much daily where as type 2s tend to do best on a higher protein diet and with days off and they don't seem as sensitive to sugar either. I don't know as much about type 2 tho that's just what I've picked up on my travels.

 

[FfionWinnie]

Can I ask which type of clip you would recommend for quite a hairy chap with PSSM symptoms please? I'm debating between hunter clip and always using an exercise sheet or blanket clip. My only concern about the blanket clip is if he gets sweaty is that worse for his muscles..?

I clip mine out all year round. It's easier to dry her off etc. I use exercise sheets for more than half the year. I would do that even if she wasn't clipped however. Sweat isn't a problem it's just that they need careful warming up and cooling down really.

As an aside prolific sweating can be a sign of them not being on the right management. Recently I added a balancer and found that my mare cannot tolerate one of the ingredients. I think either msn or Brewers yeast as I've had the same symptoms before when I put her on NAF d-ty (ironically!) which contains both these things too. She was sweating buckets and really sluggish as well.

 

[FfionWinnie]

Would you be good enough to provide me with a link as to where I could find details of this test please? Also, any websites that you recommend as 'an idiot's guide' please?

Thank you

Type 1 is animal genetics and type 2 will be equiseq. I looked at other UK labs for type 1 recently and I couldn't find faster or cheaper. The type 2 test is going to be about a hundred dollars I think. It's not available as yet.

The best info is from US based FB discussion groups really. They are much more in the know about it than is as it is a massive problem in quarter horses.

 

[Ellibelli]

I clip mine out all year round. It's easier to dry her off etc. I use exercise sheets for more than half the year. I would do that even if she wasn't clipped however. Sweat isn't a problem it's just that they need careful warming up and cooling down really.

As an aside prolific sweating can be a sign of them not being on the right management. Recently I added a balancer and found that my mare cannot tolerate one of the ingredients. I think either msn or Brewers yeast as I've had the same symptoms before when I put her on NAF d-ty (ironically!) which contains both these things too. She was sweating buckets and really sluggish as well.

Thank you!

 

[FfionWinnie]

http://www.laboklin.co.uk/laboklin/GeneticDiseases.jsp


I used these , they were very quick. They are in Manchester.


The .eu one above is in the US, the other is Cambridge.

The .eu one is in the UK. Animal Genetics although they do have a lab in the US as well. That address was for the Europe one, based in Somerset I think from memory.

 

[Booboos]

Freddy has never tied up as such but now that I suspect PSSM (also waiting for type 2 test), in retrospect, he used to have minor episodes before he started on the diet. His muscles would harden perceptively and his stomach would have a sucked in appearance - it's difficult to describe what it looked like but if I saw it again now I hope I'd recognize it.

 

[FfionWinnie]

I know exactly what you mean about the sucked in stomach. Clenching from pain, I think.

My mare ate some molassed sugar beet cattle feed on Christmas Eve (accidentally) last year and kicked me into the middle of next week when I brushed past her hind end on Christmas Day... she's not at all violent but when in pain she is rather quick to react. Only time she's kicked me tho!

 

[BBP]

Not tying up per se but this is a muscle fasiculation episode suffered by my pony who has RER. Blood work was normal. We think (given RER is a calcium regulation disorder) that this was linked to the feeding for 2 weeks and then withdrawal of a well known high calcium feed supplement.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=wx4TMBirjZw

 

[paddy555]

The type two test is available in America but not for outside America yet. It is equiseq who are offering it.

https://cvm.msu.edu/research/facult...ratory/type-2-polysaccharide-storage-myopathy

I have read all the equi seq stuff on the FB group as you have. If you look at the link above point 2 what does it mean and who is it getting at? It is by valberg and I wonder if it is querying the equi seq test? From everything Paul S has said I thought they were not willing to publish the name of the gene and I was not aware it had been peer reviewed. Just curious.

 

[zaminda]

YCBM,
Mercifully she has been sound for a long time now, and is a happy mad 26 year old. She has also had KS, and a burst blood vessel due to worm damage caused by poor care on full livery, which also cause lung damage! Love this mare, she is so tough, and comes back from everything.

 

[FfionWinnie]

https://cvm.msu.edu/research/facult...ratory/type-2-polysaccharide-storage-myopathy

I have read all the equi seq stuff on the FB group as you have. If you look at the link above point 2 what does it mean and who is it getting at? It is by valberg and I wonder if it is querying the equi seq test? From everything Paul S has said I thought they were not willing to publish the name of the gene and I was not aware it had been peer reviewed. Just curious.

Yes I have read a similar (rantier!) thing by Dr Valberg elsewhere. It made me wonder rather a lot! I certainly think it is getting at equiseq. I mentioned CEA testing in collies. That test was developed by an American company I believe similar to equiseq. I've absolutely no idea if it was ever peer reviewed either. These companies are not doing it for charity but to make money so it seems to make sense they won't publish too much info. I should have thought offering a "fake" genetic test could leave them open to various issues tho! You can't kid on with the results when it comes down to DNA they would be found out soon enough. I'm no scientist and I don't know enough about any of that side of it to form a view. Is the animal genetics type 1 test peer reviewed. I've no idea. Seems pretty accurate to me in my study of one!

I concluded I would take the punt on a 99$ hair test against a 500 quid hole in the horse's back end.

 

[SEL]

Do you follow Valberg's Yahoo group? I sense cynicism on there over the P2 test.

 

[paddy555]

Do you follow Valberg's Yahoo group? I sense cynicism on there over the P2 test.

I didn't know there was one. It is difficult to know who doesn't like who and who wants to be "top dog"!!

 

[Flame_]

A lovely, genuine ISH mare I had about 18 years ago. She passed a vetting but when she was delivered the vendor said something like "careful what you feed her, especially on her day off or she'll tie up". She did, repeatedly, after the first incidence with me. We couldn't stop it happening and she'd be in so much pain. She was put down. I suspect she had one of these conditions that are better understood now, my management could have been better and my vet more use, but I think we did the best we could with the knowledge we had at the time.

 

[paddy555]

Yes I have read a similar (rantier!) thing by Dr Valberg elsewhere. It made me wonder rather a lot! I certainly think it is getting at equiseq. I mentioned CEA testing in collies. That test was developed by an American company I believe similar to equiseq. I've absolutely no idea if it was ever peer reviewed either. These companies are not doing it for charity but to make money so it seems to make sense they won't publish too much info. I should have thought offering a "fake" genetic test could leave them open to various issues tho! You can't kid on with the results when it comes down to DNA they would be found out soon enough. I'm no scientist and I don't know enough about any of that side of it to form a view. Is the animal genetics type 1 test peer reviewed. I've no idea. Seems pretty accurate to me in my study of one!

I concluded I would take the punt on a 99$ hair test against a 500 quid hole in the horse's back end.

I wanted to ask this question on the FB PSSM group but didn't know what response I would get.

 

[FfionWinnie]

I wanted to ask this question on the FB PSSM group but didn't know what response I would get.

I actually did ask it and there was little to no response and Paul S ignored it!

 

[Booboos]

I have the same gut feeling for the P2 test! I have an allergy to anyone who distances themselves from the scientific process and everything it entails, e.g. transparity of process, dublication, peer review, accessibility to results, etc. I don't buy the commercial protection angle either as, especially in the US, there is very decent protection of intellectual property with commercial applications.

 

[SEL]

Do you follow Valberg's Yahoo group? I sense cynicism on there over the P2 test.

Not Valberg - Dr Kellon!!

too confusing for my little brain....

 

[SEL]

& whilst we're on the subject for those of you who don't use the Yahoo group (& the facebook site is better) then here's the link as to why Kellon thinks Alcar might work. I can only see a summary right now so not sure if the main research is pay to view;

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27592162

& her response when asked whether Alcar would help type 2

The problem with relating anything to EPSM2 is we don't know what it is! This "diagnosis" is really just a collection of findings on microscopic examination. Glycogen in increased amounts and unusual locations. Is it increased production (like in EPSM1) or decreased utilization? It may not even have anything to do with glycogen per se - like the myofibrillar myopathies caused by defective desmin that is now suspected in Arabians with EPSM2 compatible biopsies.

There are many EPSM2 horses that did respond to ALCar, but I really can't be sure why beyond that it supports carbohydrate burning and mitochondrial numbers. Some of the ALCar is also converted to L-Carnitine which benefits fat burning. If the problem is actually structural, like the defective desmin issue, nothing is really going to help much.

 

[milliepops]

I find all these threads fascinating and horrifying in equal measure, it seems like it must be really rather common yet the vet support sounds pretty non existant

I keep wondering about my weird cob, just because she is so weirdly nappy and first 5 mins work at home is agonising wading through treacle stuff. But she's totally different out and about (arena hire/lessons etc) and it still appears to be a mental blockage rather than physical, she works so well when she lets me in. She doesn't appear to demonstrate any physical symptoms. Is there a telltale sign that I could look for? I don't *want* anything to be wrong with her but I'd love an answer to her weirdness that isn't just "she's weird". *despairing laugh*

(she's probably just weird, but I would hate to be ignoring something).

Had one TB tie up, about a decade ago, on a coolish day doing interval training. All of a sudden the handbrake went on so we crept home quietly, only a very short walk across the field. Wasn't my horse, owner didn't want to investigate particularly as very old school so she just had some time off and then was kept warm in exercise etc. I think she had one further episode. Is a broodmare now.

 

[paddy555]

& whilst we're on the subject for those of you who don't use the Yahoo group (& the facebook site is better) then here's the link as to why Kellon thinks Alcar might work. I can only see a summary right now so not sure if the main research is pay to view;

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27592162

& her response when asked whether Alcar would help type 2

The problem with relating anything to EPSM2 is we don't know what it is! This "diagnosis" is really just a collection of findings on microscopic examination. Glycogen in increased amounts and unusual locations. Is it increased production (like in EPSM1) or decreased utilization? It may not even have anything to do with glycogen per se - like the myofibrillar myopathies caused by defective desmin that is now suspected in Arabians with EPSM2 compatible biopsies.

There are many EPSM2 horses that did respond to ALCar, but I really can't be sure why beyond that it supports carbohydrate burning and mitochondrial numbers. Some of the ALCar is also converted to L-Carnitine which benefits fat burning. If the problem is actually structural, like the defective desmin issue, nothing is really going to help much.

I have read a lot of Dr K's stuff. FW can correct me if I am wrong but Paul S (equi seq) pointed out that alcar was pointless and couldn't work. (FB PSSM) Yet if does work for some. It works for mine. Give him alcar and he is normal, remove it and by day 2 we are crawling along. A week off alcar and we would have a major set back.

I do agree with the first sentence in Dr K's quote above. The goal posts for PSSM 2 or 3 (or probably half a dozen more of them) seem to be changing constantly. Mine tied up. I know what is wrong with him (except for it's name which ATM I will go with PSSM2) I know how to manage him and I am gradually learning what I can get away with.

Flame mentioned a horse she had a long while ago. I had a pure bred arab in the early 80's, meant to be an endurance horse but he tied up around 5/6. He was diagnosed with azoturia with low calcium and imbalance calcium/phosphorous. AHT monitored him and I had to feed calcium gluconate.

Whilst he certainly tied up I would now be looking at vit E and a PSSM diet. Surprisingly, although I had no knowledge at the time, I gave un selenavite E for a short time. He seemed to improve slightly.

edited to add vet support for me was completely non existent. When pushed about his blood results my vet phoned somewhere (Liverpool I think) and it was their suggestion. I don't think the vet had heard of it. I had also reached the same conclusion by his reaction to the PSSM diet. I could hear a sigh of relief down the phone when I didn't ask the vet how to deal with it.

 

[SEL]

I find all these threads fascinating and horrifying in equal measure, it seems like it must be really rather common yet the vet support sounds pretty non existant

I keep wondering about my weird cob, just because she is so weirdly nappy and first 5 mins work at home is agonising wading through treacle stuff. But she's totally different out and about (arena hire/lessons etc) and it still appears to be a mental blockage rather than physical, she works so well when she lets me in. She doesn't appear to demonstrate any physical symptoms. Is there a telltale sign that I could look for? I don't *want* anything to be wrong with her but I'd love an answer to her weirdness that isn't just "she's weird". *despairing laugh*

(she's probably just weird, but I would hate to be ignoring something).

Had one TB tie up, about a decade ago, on a coolish day doing interval training. All of a sudden the handbrake went on so we crept home quietly, only a very short walk across the field. Wasn't my horse, owner didn't want to investigate particularly as very old school so she just had some time off and then was kept warm in exercise etc. I think she had one further episode. Is a broodmare now.

Milliepops - you could always go for the hair test to rule out type 1. Its about as cheap a horsey sciency thing as you can get! Although one of the tell tale signs is around hind end engagement. Sometimes that comes across as laziness, other times it is difficulty holding hind legs up for the farrier but I suspect a lot of horses go through life just marginally under par and 'getting on with it' despite their PSSM.

 

[milliepops]

thanks, may well do just to see.
Actually engagement not a problem when we get going, which is encouraging I guess, though does mean she's still a mystery. The problems I have are all about throughness but the blocks seem more in her head. I just wish I had a way to get through the first stuffy bit, it doesn't fit in with the rest of her work or way of going at ALL.

 

[Booboos]

I have read a lot of Dr K's stuff. FW can correct me if I am wrong but Paul S (equi seq) pointed out that alcar was pointless and couldn't work. (FB PSSM) Yet if does work for some. It works for mine. Give him alcar and he is normal, remove it and by day 2 we are crawling along. A week off alcar and we would have a major set back.

I do agree with the first sentence in Dr K's quote above. The goal posts for PSSM 2 or 3 (or probably half a dozen more of them) seem to be changing constantly. Mine tied up. I know what is wrong with him (except for it's name which ATM I will go with PSSM2) I know how to manage him and I am gradually learning what I can get away with.

Flame mentioned a horse she had a long while ago. I had a pure bred arab in the early 80's, meant to be an endurance horse but he tied up around 5/6. He was diagnosed with azoturia with low calcium and imbalance calcium/phosphorous. AHT monitored him and I had to feed calcium gluconate.

Whilst he certainly tied up I would now be looking at vit E and a PSSM diet. Surprisingly, although I had no knowledge at the time, I gave un selenavite E for a short time. He seemed to improve slightly.

edited to add vet support for me was completely non existent. When pushed about his blood results my vet phoned somewhere (Liverpool I think) and it was their suggestion. I don't think the vet had heard of it. I had also reached the same conclusion by his reaction to the PSSM diet. I could hear a sigh of relief down the phone when I didn't ask the vet how to deal with it.

Yes I've read Paul on FB say ALCAR can't work. Anecdotally people do report that it works. As far as it is possible to know such things it seems to work for my horse.

 

[FfionWinnie]

I find all these threads fascinating and horrifying in equal measure, it seems like it must be really rather common yet the vet support sounds pretty non existant

I keep wondering about my weird cob, just because she is so weirdly nappy and first 5 mins work at home is agonising wading through treacle stuff. But she's totally different out and about (arena hire/lessons etc) and it still appears to be a mental blockage rather than physical, she works so well when she lets me in. She doesn't appear to demonstrate any physical symptoms. Is there a telltale sign that I could look for? I don't *want* anything to be wrong with her but I'd love an answer to her weirdness that isn't just "she's weird". *despairing laugh*

(she's probably just weird, but I would hate to be ignoring something).

I think the nappiness is a Welsh "thing" if that's the only thing you are worried about. She would be the same everywhere I think. Have you tried lunging her at home then getting on. That might answer your question, or of course it might not lol.

I have only heard of a couple of possible Welsh sufferers which weren't confirmed. Some people are completely bizarre about wanting to keep things a secret and neither would divulge pedigree. Of course there are plenty of completely mad welshies so it would be something to come up with a reason but my gut feeling is more they have genetic mental quirks rather than physical. Every Welsh I have had has been a napper when I got it and isn't now. From what you've said Kira has many more reasons to have quirks than they did!

 

[ycbm]

thanks, may well do just to see.
Actually engagement not a problem when we get going, which is encouraging I guess, though does mean she's still a mystery. The problems I have are all about throughness but the blocks seem more in her head. I just wish I had a way to get through the first stuffy bit, it doesn't fit in with the rest of her work or way of going at ALL.

For mine any several others I know of the big giveaway is the feel of the bum muscles compared with other horses around the yard. At the time of my 'diagnosis', you could thump both my horses on the bum with your closed fist and there would be no ripple outward from where you did it. Now, on alcar and vit e, you can do the same and it ripples across their bum like a well set jelly.

At horse with even half heavy horse genes will probably have at least a 30% chance of having it.

One of mine was symptomatic on first being ridden, the other not for a year after being ridden.


I agree with FW about Welsh nappiness.

 

[Kezzabell2]

I've had horses of my own for 16 years and loaned before that! I've never had one tie up and if I'm perfectly honest I don't actually know what it means for them to tie up?

 

[FfionWinnie]

I've had horses of my own for 16 years and loaned before that! I've never had one tie up and if I'm perfectly honest I don't actually know what it means for them to tie up?

Can be anything from barely perceptible stiffness to full blown inability to move, going down and can't get up to death!

The most important thing to remember is that the external symptoms are absolutely no indication of the severity of the internal symptoms (the death causing ones).

I hadn't seen it til my mare tied up but thanks to black beauty books and the like as a child, I pretty much knew that she had!