Has your horse ever "tied up".

[FfionWinnie]

I am really keen to hear if you have a horse that has ever tied up.

If so, what breed or type, age and how is the horse kept, what circumstances did the tie up occur and did you call the vet. If the vet attended were bloods taken, what comments did the vet make.

Most importantly did the vet or anyone else suggest there could be a genetic predisposition to this happening.

Thank you.

 

[be positive]

I have owned and looked after hundreds of horses over the years, from tb's in pre training, to fit hunters getting no turnout, advanced eventers etc plus a lot of "normal" equines, years ago tying up was thought be be a management/ feed related condition and despite the horses often having a day in, on reduced rations, they were generally stuffed full of feed, I had never experienced a horse tying up, although knew the signs and the theory on how to prevent it.

About 12 years ago I had a tb mare on livery, in light work, daily turnout, unclipped, on ad lib hay, which was very good quality and a token feed, she was put away one day after a lunge and showed signs of colic, vet called, treated for mild colic and we continued as normal until about two weeks later when much the same happened during ridden exercise she started to colic but it was very slightly different and the penny dropped that she was tying up, I managed to get her to her box and well rugged, vet came agreed that she had slightly tied up, treated, took bloods and we concluded that the previous colic was also her tying up.
I had no idea why a horse on a low energy diet, plenty of time out and in very light work would do this when the management was so good, a week later another warmblood mare on a similar regime also tied up, owner did not want the vet and as it was mild we managed her ourselves, she never did it again to my knowledge.

My conclusion at the time was that the hay was just too good, June hay, probably fertilised new ley, it may have been genetic but at the time was considered one of those things, I changed the hay at the time just in case and was extremely careful with both mares for the rest of that winter. I have one PSSM mare here now who has not tied up to our knowledge but may have done in previous homes.

 

[ycbm]

I had one tie up completely in the middle of her eventing interval training. She was a fit horse.. I had to get off and walk her slowly home. She was buted to the eyeballs by the vet but no diagnostics and no advice, but it was twenty three years ago. At the time she had a small puncture wound which was weeping copious amounts of serum and I put it down to a loss of electrolytes.

She never did it again.

I've got two PSSM horses who have never 'tied up' but we're always very solid in the bum muscles. One of those had false colic episodes, one didn't.

I'm seeing and hearing about a lot of horses that I think may be PSSM but the vets still don't seem to be looking for it as a cause often enough. One I spoke to a few weeks ago asked me what alcar was. I was a bit shocked by that.

 

[FfionWinnie]

Thanks ladies. Personally I think it is highly likely there is a genetic component to all tie ups. We just haven't discovered all the syndromes yet.

I've yet to meet a vet who knows more about muscle myopathies than I do. Which is really disturbing and rather unhelpful!

I really feel there is such a lack of knowledge about muscle myopathies and that many many horses are stoically battling along being not quite right but with no chance of diagnosis.

Lastly I'm now (hopefully) buying another horse, it's costing me a fortune to have it vetted with bloods and hair test but I won't buy without that now.

There are only two groups of people who can change the suffering of horses (and their owners) from muscle myopathies and that is breeders and buyers. The first step is education, the next is putting our money where our mouths are and demanding testing.

Soon there will be a hair test for type 2. There is already one for type 1 and it only costs 30 quid with no vet involvement needed. If breeding stock aren't tested when such a cheap and simple test is available, I would like to know why.

 

[ycbm]

Thanks ladies. Personally I think it is highly likely there is a genetic component to all tie ups. We just haven't discovered all the syndromes yet.

I've yet to meet a vet who knows more about muscle myopathies than I do. Which is really disturbing and rather unhelpful!

I really feel there is such a lack of knowledge about muscle myopathies and that many many horses are stoically battling along being not quite right but with no chance of diagnosis.

Lastly I'm now (hopefully) buying another horse, it's costing me a fortune to have it vetted with bloods and hair test but I won't buy without that now.

There are only two groups of people who can change the suffering of horses (and their owners) from muscle myopathies and that is breeders and buyers. The first step is education, the next is putting our money where our mouths are and demanding testing.

Soon there will be a hair test for type 2. There is already one for type 1 and it only costs 30 quid with no vet involvement needed. If breeding stock aren't tested when such a cheap and simple test is available, I would like to know why.

I agree with you completely FW. There's a terrible problem with some breeds though. It would be impossible to breed Bretons at all, and Clydies and Shires would be a real problem with a 60% rate.

I could cry for all the undiagnosed 'lazy' horse being pushed into work that's hurting them

This thread will help, I hope.

 

[FfionWinnie]

Yes that is an issue but I would rather they were not bred than they had to suffer. It's a multi gene issue, some horses suffer a lot more than others and some suffer a lot more in silence.

I suppose it depends on the breed, if they are just being shown in hand perhaps it matters a little less! However if they are being sold as riding or driving horses then no one can know if they are fit for function or how long until they aren't.

We had similar in collies when the DNA test for Collie Eye Amoly was brought out. I think in ISDS dogs the carrier rate was something like 1 in 4. Which is really not bad. Also, it's a simple recessive and being a carrier doesn't affect the dog at all where as being a "carrier" of PSSM does affect the horse itself. Anyway Shelties and Rough Collies were far more severely affected. Finding a clear was unusual to say the least. It can't be a coincidence that the non working pet/show breeds had such a terrible outlook where as the working dogs, where function to do the job meant breeding from (practically) blind ones would be unusual had saved them from going down the same road. Also the ISDS had an eye testing programme in place years and years ago where as the KC did not.

We are lucky there is a genetic test available for some of the muscle myopathies - it needs to be utilised.

I had never heard of PSSM until I owned an affected horse. Most vets I speak to have a tiny amount of knowledge or have not heard of it. Most breeders haven't got a clue. In all the sales ads I have looked at for cobs in the last 2 years, only one mentioned it was tested clear of PSSM. Frankly that made me wonder what else was wrong with the horse that it had been tested!

 

[ycbm]

I think maybe you should redo the thread as 'have you got a lazy horse?'. I've had, I think, three or four 'lazy' PSSM horses and none of them ever tied up.

 

[Damnation]

I have to say FW, I had never head of PSSM until I saw your posts talking about it and now I would definately be more aware especially in certain breeds or "lazy" horses.

So thank you, you have taught me something new!

 

[Christmas Crumpet]

As you know mine tied up in January. There were various events which could have contributed to it. He was hunting fit, he cut his foot so was kept in the yard for a few days, he had 2 days off, he had his flu jab, I didn't cut his food as he was eating a token amount, I took him out in the trailer and he was fully clipped and I whipped his rug off to go up the gallops and it started pissing with rain and I'd not put an exercise sheet on him.

He wasn't right for a long time after that. Now, as a result, he is exercised every day unless he's had a hard day's hunting in which case he just has a mooch in the field. He is turned out every day (although is just changing back to winter routine of coming in at night. Slightly worried about how he might be being stabled for 12 hours but we'll just have to see). He is on a PSSM diet of Copra, alfalfa pellets, alcar, Vit E oil, salt (no Mg Ox as he won't eat it) & a Hack up bespoke calmer (he can be quite silly and this just takes the edge off which I'm sure helps) . If he has had a day off, I gently hack him out the day after. He's got a blanket clip and wears an exercise sheet all the time when exercising unless I'm having a lesson when it tends not to be cold anyway. He is always well rugged up.

He is a coloured ISH - looks like a LW cob and very similar to yours!!

 

[Casey76]

My friend had her competition pony tie up exceptionally badly. She went from trotting out hacking one day to being unable to walk. Her muscle enzymes were absolutely sky high and she ended up in hospital with renal failure due to rhabdomyolysis. She was tested and was n/P1. This caused a huge hoohaa in the area, as the breeder of the pony ended up getting almost his whole herd tested, and in the end it was traced back to one stallion who had NF blood I think. Unfortunately the stallion was a performance jumping pony and he was bred quite prolifically.

Tartine has never overtly tied up (that I've ever noticed ), but she obviously has a lot of general muscle stiffness that is now being addressed (hopefully!)

 

[SEL]

My mare fits into the "lazy" category - although if you'd seen her this morning trying to trot a circuit of the school you'd have gone with crippled. I'm pretty sure her muscle enzymes would be elevated if they were pulled today. She's French Trait du Nord x Appaloosa and carries 1 copy of the P1 gene.

The Ardennais gelding carries 2 copies and has minimal symptoms. He's never shown any signs of tying up and is far from lazy.

We also have an Argy polo horse on the yard who ties up very, very badly. He's never been tested for PSSM & is managed very well with dantrolene before hard work. Reading up on dantrolene it is probably more effective for horses with RER. He's very muscular but no idea on breeding.

I also knew quite a few years ago 2 hafflingers who would regularly tie up. Neither could go on grass and one of them would buck like mad when being brought back into work - but could do endurance at a high level when fit. I suspect both of those were PSSM horses.

My vets are hugely frustrating. I asked if I could trial dantrolene on my mare but was told as she wasn't actively tying up they wouldn't prescribe it. I'm struggling to get a full blood panel & last time I asked about whether I should supplement selenium they told me not to bother - even though we're in an area where the farmers tell me its low.

I've got a new physio seeing my horse on Fri & when she did her pre appointment vet check they told her there was nothing to worry about because the mare's muscle enzymes weren't hugely elevated. Those readings were taken at Easter!!

If one more 'specialist' tells me this can be managed through diet & exercise I will probably smack them...

 

[burtie]

Yes, he has since been treated as EPSM and a number of things improved dramatically after a strict diet change, he has never shown any symptoms of actual being tied up since, but does still have other mild EPSM symptoms.

He is warmblood and was 7 at the time! It was after a short time of box rest, then lunged for vet to test if lameness had improved!

 

[burtie]

I would also say that as long as I am strict with diet and exercise he is fine to do most things and still does jumping, XC events, did a trec style ride the other weekend and Dressage! He is schooled to Advanced Medium and has points at Medium, but he would struggle to get the sit and engagement required to go any higher, but that could be conformation or his condition, he is 13 now!

 

[Fiona]

I've learned a lot from your posts too FM...

Before that, I'd never heard of PSSM.

As an aside, I've been browsing ads for connies recently, and only one out of 100's of ads has mentioned that the pony (or the family) have been tested for the white line disease existing in the breed..

Fiona

 

[SEL]

I am in danger of going into rant mode on here so #takesdeepbreath.....

When the ex polo pony tied up at our yard not one vet suggested the owner do a genetic test with it nor did they suggest any potential drugs that might help. Dantrolene was offered by someone we know who has an ex-racer who ties up and it pretty much worked miracles with both the racer and the polo pony. Supporting the owner with the management of the horse has come via me who, like FW, seems to know more than the vets now. Looking at the build of the horse I would also test for HYPP if it was mine, but the vets haven't mentioned it and I'm not sure I want to throw anything else at the owners. Its breeding is unknown.

I have been made to feel like a stupid, paranoid, over anxious owner at times. I've also been told that 'I'm surprised you're still persevering given how difficult she is'. When the horse feels well she isn't difficult, but she shouts loudly when she's ill.

Before I knew about PSSM I tried to talk to the vets about what was an obvious - to me anyway - sugar sensitivity in the horse. On grass she would get diarrhoea, become very grumpy and stop going forward. I was told the diarrhoea was natural on rich grass and she was napping. I still can't believe no one suggested taking her off the grass at the very least and seeing if she improved.

But then I was also told by the same vet that my snowcap horse couldn't be night blind because she wasn't a purebred appaloosa. A quick google and a photo of her on one of the Appy FB pages soon proved to me that my suspicions were correct. Given her colouring is an obvious one for CSNB I think I might add that to a list of 'easy genetic conditions to spot' that vets need to be trained in! BUT - if I hadn't researched CSNB on Animal Genetics then I would never have come across PSSM and had that lightbulb moment......

[btw - v bad week pony-wise so excuse ranting posts]

 

[Caol Ila]

The uni where I did my undergraduate had a stable with 30 school horses (and 30 liveries). I spent part of a summer working with some horses newly donated to the riding school, seeing if they woud be suitable and what they could do before the academic year started. I discovered pretty quickly that one little quarter horse would tie up if she worked to any degree of intensity. I think they kept her, but only used her for beginner lessons which were mostly at walk, with a wee bit of trot.

 

[Lanky Loll]

23+ years ago I had a connie X jumping pony that used to tie up - back then PSSM etc were unheard of. We used to keep his muscles warm and were recommended to use some embrocation and massage down his back after exercise. He only had 1 bad episode that I remember but we were obviously careful afterwards.
My TB tied up whilst in racing and it led to degeneration of her bum muscles - again once we knew about it we were very careful with her diet, exercise levels and keeping her warm - she's not a great doer at the best of times but this added to the challenge of keeping weight on her!

 

[poiuytrewq]

Not personally but for a time it happened fairly regularly at work.
Mostly but not always younger mares or fillies. Always after hard work, often after the first bit of hard work in a while. We had a few that regularly suffered and a few complete one off's
Vet never called. They were kept warm and obviously still until the attack was over. Given some easy days then back to it.
None were ever any the worse for this quite casual approach visibly but one day I was holding a filly for a physio and she knew without being told that the horse had tied up so obviously effected her.
If my own horse tied up once I'd manage myself but if it re-occurred I'd be getting a vet to avoid muscle damage long term.

 

[poiuytrewq]

That wasn't really a correct reply!
They are TB racehorses in full training. Stabled almost totally, high energy diets and little forage (do the maths!)
All younger 3-7 I think, I don't recall any older horses ever doing it.
No genetic link was ever mentioned or considered however I'm pretty sure the two most likely to suffer were young, just broken/starting proper work, related fillies

 

[ester]

Yes once, on a really rainy windy day hacking out without a sheet, was a slightly rushed day so may have cantered sooner than normal but still would have been at least a mile walk and half mile trot to get there. No real obvious reason for it.
She has never done it again in the last 8 years or so.
No comment on genetics etc, this was mums so arab sire and welshxtb dam.

 

[Tiarella]

Still no idea what's wrong with my horse but he does have muscle issues and tested negative for pssm 1. Tucks up very badly in the morning, picture of health by the afternoon. Doesn't matter if he is in work, or not, bute or no bute, grass, no grass...the list goes on. I have just started supplementing magnesium oxide though as our farm is deficient in it - lost 2 cows recently.

 

[Slightlyconfused]

Our British Appaloosa tied up six weeks ago.
Bloods came back as normal so vet thinks it's a one off.
He is type on negative as both parents are registered with the British Appaloosa Society and they have to have the tail hair test for type one.

I am still interested in the type two test when.it comes out just as I am still suspect but can't put my finger on it.

He is on thunder Brooks herbal chaff and progressive earth pro hoof balance and their vit e powder.

It's the only way I can get anything into him as he is very very fussy.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

At work we have always given them bute and some quiet days, take bloods every week and bring them gently back into work.it would be 3 weeks before they did any degree of work again.

Until this one mare we have. She is tall and rangy, quite immature to be honest for a 5you but that particular line don't fill out until they are 7 or 8yo. As a 4yo she tied up regularly so she was turned away. Brought back in this year and has only tied up once - when we had to change her feed due to running out of her own stuff. She is fed on the new Baileys no 21 - Ease and Excel. She tied up when she spent a week on the baileys working cubes. She gets Dantrium every day that she is on the gallops proper. She also get ridden twice a day. Mornings her usual work, afternoons just a trot or a canter, not much but enough to keep her moving. She also lives out overnight. Out at 4pm, in at 7.30am. She is ridden 7 days a week in the morning, Sunday afternoon she goes on the horse Walker.

Of the 3 others that have been known to tie up they are all on the no 21 feed and are ridden twice a day but that is all. They all wear 1/4 sheets regardless. And they all go in the field every day but not overnight.

These are fully fit racehorses. 2 young mares, 2 young geldings. None closely related.

My own horse tied up once in training 8 years or so ago. I still ride him like he could tie up. Kept warm, warmed up and cooled down over a longer period of time etc. Though he has never done it since.

 

[huskydamage]

My pony tied up once a couple of years ago. She is supposedly a newforest x of some sort and was 20 at the time I think. She started shaking mid ride and wouldn't walk. I got off and led her home I was scared she was having a fit or something. Never heard of tying up she'd never had it before in 10+ years with me . Vet wasn't sure why it happened,gave muscle relaxant and bloodtest showed some damage. Very slowly she was brought back into work. Touch wood she hasn't had it since. Very random

 

[Ellibelli]

Can I ask which type of clip you would recommend for quite a hairy chap with PSSM symptoms please? I'm debating between hunter clip and always using an exercise sheet or blanket clip. My only concern about the blanket clip is if he gets sweaty is that worse for his muscles..?

 

[OLDGREYMARE]

I have a warmblood mare that used to tie up after trotting uphill, the first time we fetched her home in a trailer and the vet said to keep her in overnight and turnout in a small paddock the next morning.Well she was turned out and promptly jumped a 5 bar gate to get to her mates nextdoor! The next time I sent a lorry for her and she wouldn't load,it was getting dark and I'm sorry to admit that I gave her a good whack on her bum and she shot up the ramp double quick.This was at least 10 years ago,She lived out at the time and had very little hard feed. However her showjumping was never as good afterwards and in the end I sent her out on loan for several years where she was out 24/7 and never tied up again.

 

[gunnergundog]

Soon there will be a hair test for type 2. There is already one for type 1 and it only costs 30 quid with no vet involvement needed. If breeding stock aren't tested when such a cheap and simple test is available, I would like to know why.

Would you be good enough to provide me with a link as to where I could find details of this test please? Also, any websites that you recommend as 'an idiot's guide' please?

Thank you

 

[ycbm]

https://www.animaldnadiagnostics.co.uk/

 

[zaminda]

My friends tb/shire mare has tied up a few times. Owned since a 6 year old, broken at 5. 13 years old the first time she did it. Then was kept out during the day and in at night, o a fibre only diet. Fit and ridden at least 5x a week. When she did it had been ridden last few days and did not more work than normal. Sunny day but not hot. Vet attended, was box rested for 24 hours then in a pen. Was fine after a few days and ridden lightly. Came in from the field lame having damaged a joint shortly after. No connection was made at the time.
3 years later, she was very quiet when she is usually wired to the moon. Vet was called and bloods taken. Showed raised muscle enzymes. By this point vets had an internal medicine specialist, who was surprised that one of ours had tied up due to our management routine, which by this point was out 24/7 and ulcer kind diet. He took a biopsy and it came back with nothing. Shortly after returning to work, she blew a tendon. He felt it was linked.
She did a similar thing a few years later, and then went lame. With this mare it seems to be when something is niggling under the surface. Her more recent episodes, of which there have been 3 have all been linked with lameness.

 

[gunnergundog]

http://www.animalgenetics.eu/


https://www.animaldnadiagnostics.co.uk/

Thank you.