Have I poisoned all of my horses

[Cecilrides]

A little update just in case anyone is interested / trying also to solve liver enzyme issues - as the herd liver results have taken an unexpected turn.

as you know when they all seemed to have this issue I had moved them onto new grazing, changed them to haylage, 2 weeks later all were improving. Which seemed to point to the previous hay they were on or something in the old grazing.

The most recent bloods a month later again show that the thoroughbred is nearly normal (GGT 76) and the old pony’s GGT has continued to come down (now 190 - 466 originally)

But the Irish sports who had come down from GGT 480 to 357 is now back up to 457! His liver function is still fine though.

i am somewhat at a loss as to why his has gone back up again when the others have continued to go down, when we originally thought it was a herd issue linked to shared forage, however they are all on the same new forage and the others are improved - so unless he in particular is munching something he shouldn’t be in the new field I can’t think what the cause of the increase coild be.

There is buttercup and clover in that field which I’m wondering might be responsible if he is eating them and the others aren’t.
Or maybe he has picked up a new virus?!

vet seems to think maybe it’s just a ‘blip’ because the liver has been under stress which might have caused the enzymes to increase again, let’s hope so although I do find that explanation a little circular. We will retest 4 weeks and if worse, probably consider biopsy.

he seems fine in himself thankfully.

 

[Cecilrides]

Dear all,

LONG LIVER DISEASE UPDATE - it’s back and I’ve had to move them away from home.

I am resurrecting this thread out of desperation for any suggestions on what I can do, as since I last posted in November, unfortunately the liver problems are BACK (Or have continued) and it has turned into a living nightmare.

background

the thoroughbred had ‘recovered ‘ consistently for a few months since January 22 (as in consistently normal enzyme levels, he was never biopsied nor received steroids), the ISH had a course of steroids earlier in the year and his levels came down to almost normal by March, GGT around 132 and the vet basically signed him off.
he had a biopsy earlier in the year in Jan which showed moderate fibrosis and no irreversible changes (also ruled out pyrrolizidine alkaloid poisoning, alflatoxins and no heavy metal deposits seen in liver - results which we applied to them all as herd mates)

Little pony unfortunately is no longer with us (PTS in March, old, arthritis, laminitis) but his liver never improved)

update

they moved to a new field on our grazing in April (Not previously grazed). I retested start of July just to check all was dandy but both horses have raised enzymes again (in 400s for thoro and 188 ISH), did the new liver fibrosis blood test from liphook and both scored moderate to severe.
Liver functions are currently fine.

vets said this was a dramatic worsening and have advised me I must change grazing completely - not ideal is an understatement as I live here and the land is about 24acres - because they think it is “something on the pasture“ but cannot say what, they can only hope that by moving we will remove the cause.

Nonetheless I found a lady willing to rent me 9 acres (across 3 fields) on the other side of the village. I go there twice a day and lug sacks of poo around as part of the deal (we have always harrowed and rested so this is a bit of a shock), and anxiously observe them for signs of onset neurological damage. horses have been there 2 weeks and bloods will be redone tomorrow to see if any improvement.

The liver fluke tests we actually did this time came back negative.

BUT I just have no idea what to do with my own fields - and the vets seem not to be able to advise on this - they in fact do not even think it’s worth walking my own fields/getting someone to do this for hepatotoxic plants (beyond PA family which biopsy ruled out) or an agronomist of some sort because “it’s not diagnostic”. i mean of course it‘s not but in my view identifying and eliminating possible causes would be helpful.

my vets have not been particularly interested in me pointing out in my own fields they have been grazing the proliferation of alsike clover, red and white clover, ergot (since ID‘d in fields since my last posts), the half eaten water hemlock over the fence, the several mouldy horsehage bags I fed them recently before realising - nor the alsike clover and ergot in the new grazing I was instructed to move them to.

I am in contact with the Veterinary Poisons Info Service to see if they can help on the plant side; I have sent off a load of grass samples to Alltech for more mycotoxin testing (despite the excruciating price) - awaiting results; I am trying Rothamsted Research to see if they have anyone interested to come and do tests on the land of some sort which may identify potential issues. I am thinking of contacting universities also.

does anyone have any other ideas of whom I could contact about what to do land wise to our own grazing or what tests to do which might help?

thanks so much

 

[PurBee]

Crikey cecilrides, youve been on a journey. Just a quick reply - will re-read entire thread later tonight and reply more fully to add some suggestions as i’ve got work, but if you have 3 types of clover, including alsike in your fields, a re-seed project is called for.

I’ll go into more depth to method, if you wish - but just curious what grasses are predominant in your fields?

 

[Cecilrides]

thanks very much Purbee, yes definitely I would really appreciate that!

grasses are a mixture which I have identified on the plant app which I’m not sure is totally reliable for grasses (PictureThis) :

-false oat (although this seems to be the one with ergot so not sure it is actually false oat),
-common velvet
- orchard grass
-soft brome
-some meadow foxtail
-some colonial bentgrass
-some ryegrass

one part of one field on the river also has types of sedge (and galingale? and pampas grass).
as well as the clovers there are a variety of other things such as yarrow, buttercup, birdsfoot trefoil, meadow pea, field bindweed, which I know are not things you ought to have.

 

[PurBee]

thanks very much Purbee, yes definitely I would really appreciate that!

grasses are a mixture which I have identified on the plant app which I’m not sure is totally reliable for grasses (PictureThis) :

-false oat (although this seems to be the one with ergot so not sure it is actually false oat),
-common velvet
- orchard grass
-soft brome
-some meadow foxtail
-some colonial bentgrass
-some ryegrass

one part of one field on the river also has types of sedge (and galingale? and pampas grass).
as well as the clovers there are a variety of other things such as yarrow, buttercup, birdsfoot trefoil, meadow pea, field bindweed, which I know are not things you ought to have.

Hi CR,

You have a varied mix in your meadows, they sound like theyre old mixed meadow mixes there, usually quite sought after, yet does depend on % of the ‘potential toxic for equines’ plants like the clovers/buttercup/bindweed.

Are all your fields cross grazed with sheep? Im wondering when you moved your horses to new fields to see if livers would improve whether the new fields were already eaten down by sheep, short grass, with none of the plants developing flowers or seed heads? (Less toxic)

Have the horses on your land mostly grazed fields during this time that have not developed seed head or flowers, of have they had mostly access to a well grown/developed meadow?

 

[PurBee]

The alsike clover toxin is unknown and so cant be tested for. That type of clover causes big liver syndrome and photosensitisation of white skin. Youve mentioned one horse having a sunburnt nose, but the main symptom you noticed was weight loss, part of big liver syndrome etiology.

Youve had tests confirming liver fibrosis moderate to severe, also tying-in with big liver syndrome.

Dose is important and i would have thought you’d need a fair % of alsike clover in the fields for the liver syndrome to occur and progress. Hence why i ask if your fields are well grown or nibbled short continuously by sheep, as that would determine dose of alsike clover your horses are exposed to.
Clovers are very palatable to horses, mine will brush away leaves etc to get to the lowest little clover leaves growing tight to the ground.

The moulds from the red and white clovers/hays have been tested for and not found, also you would have seen your horses with slobbery excess saliva mouths if this mould from these types of clovers were an issue due to slaframine - so it seems hay and other toxins from plants can be ruled out.

Alsike clover is easy to tell apart from the common red and white clovers - alsike clover does NOT have a white “v’ on its leaves. Red and white clover do. Alsike clover tends towards a pinkish flower…some white petals at the base graduating to shades of pink at the top.

It’s recommended that horses not eat more than 5% of alsike clover as feed. Because no-one knows if its a natural inner toxin to the plant or a toxin that develops under certain conditions, because it hasnt been identified, it cant be known how much is toxic to horses, hence the low % allowable.
(I personally think that‘s pretty generous allowable amount for a plant with a toxin we cant identify so cant measure a toxic threshold amount, with vague symptomology, that only presents symptoms in light skin with mild toxicity, or more serious symptoms when liver damage has occurred)

Big liver syndrome info:

https://horsesdaily.com/article/spring-pastures-and-clover-toxicity-horses


http://omafra.gov.on.ca/english/livestock/horses/facts/info_alsike_clover.htm



p.s (Was ergovaline tested for in any way?)

 

[PurBee]

If you had a equine toxic plant expert walk your fields, theyd mention all the possible moulds and compounds in so many various plants that have the capacity to cause toxicity and liver issues in horses, that it would cost you an enormous amount to keep pulling blood to test for all these possible toxic compounds. Youve had a fair amount of testing to rule-out the hay moulds and toxic alkaloids.

Bear in mind that the reason you pulled bloods from them all was because of weight loss in 1 horse. The others were asymptomatic. Looked at from a detached standpoint, we can say that the livers are functioning as per the tests, yet there’s raised enzymes indicating toxicity. There’s no overt serious symptoms yet tests now show fibrosis is occurring. So the liver is doing its job of clearing toxins as the enzymes are raised. Its doing the job as intended. The livers work despite the fibrosis. The fibrosis result is the most compelling to follow as there’s only a few plant toxins that cause liver cells to die, hence why im more interested in the alsike clover than the other plants in your fields. Also you said alsike clover is in the new fields youre renting, so again, its a culprit that features in their diet and hasnt/cant be removed, due to it being part of the grazing. Its the 1 plant that hasnt been eradicated completely while youve been on this liver testing journey.

All fields have some undesirables in them, its just a question of dose. Once we have 5 toxic culprits that in greater amounts by themselves would cause damage, we have to consider there are 5 plant types altogether that are mildly toxic, so consider the accumulation of all 5 and their combined dose. If its a high amount, we would consider re-seeding.

Re-seeding your fields is a big job and if you dont need the entire 20+ acres for your horses, i’d opt to re-seed the acreage your horses minimum grazing needs, allowing for winter grazing/turnout too.

Another field management technique you can try before a big re-seed job, is to only graze them on fields which are kept topped/cross-grazed - but not completely scalped short by sheep, as grasses and plants go into ‘stress mode’ and start producing toxic compounds precisely to stop grazing animals from destroying them. This is seen in all kinds of plants/trees/bushes globally. It’s nature’s way of ensuring even plants have defences against being killed off by grazers.

If we can keep grass length to a good 3/4 inches, the plants are growing happily, aren’t stressed, but there’s not so much length that the dense long growth causes moulds on lower leaves, nor any 1 plant gets so well developed that if its a toxic weed the horse receives a large dose from grazing the entire field. Grasses kept to this 3/4inch length are neither stressed, nor loading up on sugars as an ‘emergency fuel’ ,nor are they full of sugar due to very long lush growth.

Maintaining this length can be tricky if there’s too little land/too many horses or too much land/not enough horses. You have 20+ acres so have possibility of fields running away from you and getting overgrown, unless there’s more horses than you mention and your sheep herd is substantial.
If you have more growth than you want, topping the fields will be required.

If you already keep your fields to this 3/4 inch length, and the clovers/other dodgy weeds : bindweed/trefoil are more than 10% of the field plants - i’d consider a re-seed, to sow an equine ryegrass-free mix of grasses. Cotswold Seeds do a fantastic selection of equine seed mixes, and are great to call for advice on best species for your soil type/climate.

The commercial farming option would be to spray the weeds and clovers out of your fields with an appropriate herbicide used every mid spring after they start growing after winter dormancy. You need a good length of weed for the sprays to penetrate and really kill the plant.
There’s advantages and disadvantages to this system of weed management via annual herbicides. If you have lots of weeds, youll have bare land after theyre dead which will grow more weeds as nature never ever leaves bare soil anywhere, except in drought conditions!
Herbicides although designed to not kill grasses, can inhibit grass growth. Not an issue if you have too much grass.
You are going to have to spray every spring to keep the weeds in check. Its costly for 20+ acres at least once a year - you may have to do a late summer spray depending on the weed types.
The toxicity element regarding modern herbicides have not been independently studied aside from funding via the herbicide developers themselves, nor rigorous longterm exposure effects of mammals.

The advantages are that for a field rampant with weeds, they can be killed-off fairly rapidly. So the fields dont have to be closed off from grazing use for half a year while waiting for a newly seeded ley to germinate and establish.
This is ideal when there is limited grazing and the grazing is essential - animals are advised to be pulled off for a mere few days /2 wks max after spraying so its a rapid solution in certain circumstances.

You could try a one-off spray on a field and see what % of weeds grow back. There’s usually many dormant seeds lying within surface soil hence why we spray, kill patches of weeds, then light gets to the patch and germinates the weed seeds that have been lying dormant in the soil - necessitating the need for regular, annual repeat sprays.

If your fields have been regularly grazed over the years and not been left to grow long and form seed heads, then there shouldnt be many dormant seeds in the topsoil ready to germinate. So a one-off spray may work well in this case, not needing annual sprayings.

You can overseed with grass seed the bare patches after spraying-off weeds, but the germination rate is lower than burying the seed in soil, so youd want to sow thickly - to out-compete germinating weed seeds.

If you want to not use any agro-chemicals at all, you would need to re-seed.
You’d want to tight graze with sheep, or mow the land extremely short…i use a flail mower as it mulches what is cut into tiny pieces that rot fast. Then rotovate the top 6 inches to produce a fine till to sow seed on/into. Sow seed at around 15kg/acre, Then roll to squash it flat and firm, then pray for rain! Do it before rain is forecast rather than when dry conditions are due. Mid-april the soil starts being workable and warming up ready for good grass seed growth.

If you will contract the work to re-seed it will cost quite a bit. Many contractors would recommend spraying off with roundup the whole lot if you want to guarantee your seed mix grows dominant and not have older grasses/weeds re-emerging. To be honest, i’d rather use round-up/glyphosate to kill off a whole field, than use modern ‘selective active persistent’ herbicide sprays. The half-life of glyphosate is much shorter than the modern selective herbicides. Its broken down more rapidly. Its just as toxic but hangs around for a shorter time! Its a case of pick your poison with these chemicals and knowing which one to use is half the battle.
Using just straight roundup ‘glyphosate’ is what you should use as that won’t affect newly sowed grass seed from germinating. There’s other glyphosate formulas that contain ‘Diquat’ which will kill pre-emerging plants, and make it impossible to sow seeds and get them germinating. So use just straight glyphosate, if going the agro-chemical route for re-seeding.

To recap -

* a selective herbicide spray treatment or glyphosate+re-seed has to be seriously considered if your horses are already grazing your fields at a short 3/4 inch length. That indicates theyre still dealing with toxicity at that ’safe’ length.

* If theyve been grazing very short/bare fields alongside sheep, consider allowing them to graze longer grass at 3/4 inch length where sheep dont nibble it right close to soil. Stressed short plants can become toxic.

*If theyve been grazing long lush fields 7+inches mostly, then keep the grass shorter and trial them on fields that are kept short 3/4 inch length - never letting them access to very long lush fields where the toxic weeds are well developed.

*If youre desperate to get them back on your land, consider a broadleaf selective-weed herbicide spray designed to just kill the clovers/trefoil etc leaving the grasses. id allow dead/dying weeds to rot down personally before moving them back on.
3/4 weeks wait.

 

[Melody Grey]

Outside the box here- is there any possibility of contaminated water leaching onto your land, either through a spring or high water table? I used to rent reclaimed grazing that had a household refuse site underneath- it was a long way under and sealed away with a thick clay layer. We had regular testing on it and never found a problem and horses were well. I think it was the environment agency that tested the water run-off, I wonder if they could help/ advise? Do you have historic mining/ quarrying or industry close by?

ETA: has some bizarre fertiliser been used on the land in the past?

 

[Cecilrides]

Hi CR,

You have a varied mix in your meadows, they sound like theyre old mixed meadow mixes there, usually quite sought after, yet does depend on % of the ‘potential toxic for equines’ plants like the clovers/buttercup/bindweed.

Are all your fields cross grazed with sheep? Im wondering when you moved your horses to new fields to see if livers would improve whether the new fields were already eaten down by sheep, short grass, with none of the plants developing flowers or seed heads? (Less toxic)

Have the horses on your land mostly grazed fields during this time that have not developed seed head or flowers, of have they had mostly access to a well grown/developed meadow?

Purbee, thanks so much for your in depth replies, really appreciate it. The field they (the thoroughbred and pony no longer with us) were grazing from from June last year (field 1) until August was mature and had seed heads. The ISH arrived in august last year to join them. It hadn’t been grazed by the sheep since the year before. it wasn’t cut for hay until late august due to the wet weather. they moved to field (2) soon after the hay crop was off. Field 2 also had not been grazed by sheep since the previous year. I kept some of these bales for the horses (we don’t have much storage so farmer usually takes most of them) but I discovered they went mouldy I think from being damp when baled. This was what we originally thought was the culprit.
they moved back to field 1 in October though in case it was a problem in field 1.

they went onto field 3 end of April and sheep joined them in May. The grasses were long and mature although areas did become very short due to the sheep.

 

[criso]

I was talking to one of the vets from the rvc last year and they were carrying out a study. They've had many cases where multiple horses on a yard had issues but no cause ever found.

Might be worth seeing if the study is complete and whether it has any useful info

 

[Cecilrides]

I see what you mean re the toxic plant expert - I haven’t been able to find anyone anyway (the VPIS said I should contact BEVA but I havent Yet; rothamsted said their research teams only focus on pasture nutrition not toxicology) and to be honest I’m not sure what they could tell us beyond what has already been identified in the fields (then again you don’t know what you don’t know..) and what the mycotoxin test results will say when we get them.

Thankfully the most recent tests done last week show that their fibrosis scores are now in the absent to mild category, so quite an improvement, and a massive relief.
The thoroughbred‘s GGT is almost normal and the ISH is 287 so increased although the vet thinks potentially a product of the liver ‘regenerating’, and puts more stock by the lack of fibrosis. There is a third retired mare who has been with them since April who also had raised enzyme levels, though we didn’t do a fibrosis test on her at the start of July, she is now scoring absent to mild.

They are both (thoro and ISH) still on steroids so the real test will be when we wean them off them and see if they are consistently improved. I suppose it’s hard to tell with The influence of the steroids whether that means eg alsike clover is actually not a problem Given it is also on the new fields.

They have definitely been grazing varying lengths, sometimes very long but sometimes too short, the latter particularly over the winter when we were trying to keep them on field 1 without making more changes. but it is too much for it all to be kept consistently at that length without topping.

thank you for the advice on reseeding/spraying. That sounds wise to limit it to the area we would actually need rather than the whole lot in one go. im Finding it difficult to identify whether they have been ok grazing when the fields have been about 3/4, as I said they tend to graze varying lengths from tall down to too short.
On field 1 however which they were on over winter, the thoroughbred did recover totally and the ISH did sufficiently for the vet to sign him off. So it could be an idea to move them back onto this field at the end of the summer and keep it that length, and ’see how we get on’. Although that idea does make me a bit nervous.
I think the next action also depends on the mycotoxin results - if they are problematic I believe Alltech advises a ‘deep till’ and reseeding.

if we were to reseed etc would it be best to do it in the spring, or is there a window to do that in eg late august/ September ?

At least it is good news for now in terms of the horses‘ overall improvement, even if they have to live elsewhere!
thanks again.

 

[Cecilrides]

I was talking to one of the vets from the rvc last year and they were carrying out a study. They've had many cases where multiple horses on a yard had issues but no cause ever found.

Might be worth seeing if the study is complete and whether it has any useful info

oh really that is interesting! Do you know if it is related to the Liphook study or a different one? We had originally been asked to do the liphook one although it turned out we weren’t suitable as they were comparing affected and unaffected horses on the same yard, in order to have an idea of what the affected horses had in their urine the others didn’t, and unfortunately because all of mine were affected we didn’t qualify.
I will give RVC a call though and see.

edited to add - I know the liphook one is still ongoing as I got back in contact with them a few weeks ago about it, so they couldn’t offer any concrete findings.

 

[Cecilrides]

Outside the box here- is there any possibility of contaminated water leaching onto your land, either through a spring or high water table? I used to rent reclaimed grazing that had a household refuse site underneath- it was a long way under and sealed away with a thick clay layer. We had regular testing on it and never found a problem and horses were well. I think it was the environment agency that tested the water run-off, I wonder if they could help/ advise? Do you have historic mining/ quarrying or industry close by?

ETA: has some bizarre fertiliser been used on the land in the past?

interesting point - I don’t know is the answer, although one of the fields had a sewage leak into it about 10 years ago. Their most recent field they were Drinking out of the stream, so it is possible. I will give the environment agency a call and see what they might be able to help with.
no fertiliser or sprays at all for about 20 years Since my family have been here.

 

[criso]

oh really that is interesting! Do you know if it is related to the Liphook study or a different one? We had originally been asked to do the liphook one although it turned out we weren’t suitable as they were comparing affected and unaffected horses on the same yard, in order to have an idea of what the affected horses had in their urine the others didn’t, and unfortunately because all of mine were affected we didn’t qualify.
I will give RVC a call though and see.

I don't know, I'd called the vet out for a mild colic and while we were going through possible causes, I mentioned mine had had raised enzymes in the past and she mentioned the study.

 

[Cecilrides]

I don't know, I'd called the vet out for a mild colic and while we were going through possible causes, I mentioned mine had had raised enzymes in the past and she mentioned the study.

thank you, I will ask RVC.

 

[PurBee]

Purbee, thanks so much for your in depth replies, really appreciate it. The field they (the thoroughbred and pony no longer with us) were grazing from from June last year (field 1) until August was mature and had seed heads. The ISH arrived in august last year to join them. It hadn’t been grazed by the sheep since the year before. it wasn’t cut for hay until late august due to the wet weather. they moved to field (2) soon after the hay crop was off. Field 2 also had not been grazed by sheep since the previous year. I kept some of these bales for the horses (we don’t have much storage so farmer usually takes most of them) but I discovered they went mouldy I think from being damp when baled. This was what we originally thought was the culprit.
they moved back to field 1 in October though in case it was a problem in field 1.

they went onto field 3 end of April and sheep joined them in May. The grasses were long and mature although areas did become very short due to the sheep.

Understood - they were mostly grazing very mature long growing fields during liver testing time. So the noxious plants you have had the potential to give a good dose due to them being fully grown and mature.
(Some noxious weeds are neutralised by drying for hay, some arent - but you discounted the hay causation after elimination and continued liver results)

The new fields youve rented which theyre on with dodgy clover/ergot - are they long too, or kept short?

I know its tricky to assess, but what % of your home fields are noxious weeds? If much more than 10%, and you need to use the fields asap, consider selective herbicide spraying. Just get minimum grazing acreage sprayed rather than your whole acreage.
If less than 10% - consider keeping the fields 3/4 inch length for grazing.

If theyre very weedy fields of 30%+, consider straight glyphosate and re-seed if you want to make hay from it - start small with just the minimum acreage for grazing and hay needs.

With so many factors, like mould from the hay and having several toxic weeds throughout your paddocks, and them eating it when its very mature - so ergot is a risk at that growth stage too - you may not find it to be 1 culprit causing liver distress, but the combo of toxins from various sources, all creating enough issues to tip the livers over the edge. Many toxic plants arent deadly - its dosage that matters, so them having 2% of low-toxic plants, and youve got 5 of these species, that’s 10% of their grazing diet - so all adds up. Day in day out, a little bit of toxicity accumulates, so the livers will be continually raised enzymes.

If youve got lots of alsike clover a spray or re-seed is the safest route for horse grazing/hay making.

When i assess fields i look at a rough 4 metre square section, analyse the plants within that square, how much of any 1 species in that square are there. Divide the square up into 10 slices, to work-out the % of plants.
If every 4 metre section i have toxic plants i would want to get rid of them, by spray or re-seed. It depends on the plant, but alsike clover and big liver syndrome is what you seem to potentially to have an issue with, so thats how i would assess the clover.
Some fields have toxic plants grouped on upper slopes or lower wetter areas, and just that section can be sprayed off, if the rest of the field doesnt contain lots of it per 4 metre square.

Cow paddock seed mixes often contain alsike clover, so that why horse owners can find themselves in these types of fields. when purposefully sown for 1 grazing species, and toxic to another, if there’s abundance of it, a spray-off or re-seed is called for - because even keeping that grazing short means a horse will still be getting a good dose per grazing session.

I’ve included a lot of info, if you aren’t sure about certain aspects, feel free to ask, i’ll try to explain better. If you want to share pics of 4 metres sections of your fields showing good plant growth, so they can be assessed, im happy to take a look.

Did you try milk thistle? I know you were being studied so counterproductive at that stage to try remedies, but if youre out of study-phase, maybe adding milk thistle to help re-generate liver cells, and aid liver dealing with toxicity is worth trying. Ive read good testimonials from its use for liver health in horses.

 

[Cecilrides]

Understood - they were mostly grazing very mature long growing fields during liver testing time. So the noxious plants you have had the potential to give a good dose due to them being fully grown and mature.
(Some noxious weeds are neutralised by drying for hay, some arent - but you discounted the hay causation after elimination and continued liver results)

The new fields youve rented which theyre on with dodgy clover/ergot - are they long too, or kept short?

I know its tricky to assess, but what % of your home fields are noxious weeds? If much more than 10%, and you need to use the fields asap, consider selective herbicide spraying. Just get minimum grazing acreage sprayed rather than your whole acreage.
If less than 10% - consider keeping the fields 3/4 inch length for grazing.

If theyre very weedy fields of 30%+, consider straight glyphosate and re-seed if you want to make hay from it - start small with just the minimum acreage for grazing and hay needs.

With so many factors, like mould from the hay and having several toxic weeds throughout your paddocks, and them eating it when its very mature - so ergot is a risk at that growth stage too - you may not find it to be 1 culprit causing liver distress, but the combo of toxins from various sources, all creating enough issues to tip the livers over the edge. Many toxic plants arent deadly - its dosage that matters, so them having 2% of low-toxic plants, and youve got 5 of these species, that’s 10% of their grazing diet - so all adds up. Day in day out, a little bit of toxicity accumulates, so the livers will be continually raised enzymes.

If youve got lots of alsike clover a spray or re-seed is the safest route for horse grazing/hay making.

When i assess fields i look at a rough 4 metre square section, analyse the plants within that square, how much of any 1 species in that square are there. Divide the square up into 10 slices, to work-out the % of plants.
If every 4 metre section i have toxic plants i would want to get rid of them, by spray or re-seed. It depends on the plant, but alsike clover and big liver syndrome is what you seem to potentially to have an issue with, so thats how i would assess the clover.
Some fields have toxic plants grouped on upper slopes or lower wetter areas, and just that section can be sprayed off, if the rest of the field doesnt contain lots of it per 4 metre square.

Cow paddock seed mixes often contain alsike clover, so that why horse owners can find themselves in these types of fields. when purposefully sown for 1 grazing species, and toxic to another, if there’s abundance of it, a spray-off or re-seed is called for - because even keeping that grazing short means a horse will still be getting a good dose per grazing session.

I’ve included a lot of info, if you aren’t sure about certain aspects, feel free to ask, i’ll try to explain better. If you want to share pics of 4 metres sections of your fields showing good plant growth, so they can be assessed, im happy to take a look.

Did you try milk thistle? I know you were being studied so counterproductive at that stage to try remedies, but if youre out of study-phase, maybe adding milk thistle to help re-generate liver cells, and aid liver dealing with toxicity is worth trying. Ive read good testimonials from its use for liver health in horses.

Thanks for this Purbee. the new fields are long! Ive been snapping off affected seed heads as I go around (but hardly foolproof). I will go out and do the square analysis as you suggest, I expect that the clover will be more than 10% frankly as I feel like I have seen alot of it, as well as buttercup. The field that I had hoped to have them back onto by the winter was cut for hay by the farmer however a few weeks ago and is now very short and brown, so potentially a bit difficult to see good plant growth there at the moment.

I have actually just got some mycotoxin results back from Alltech from the field they were most recently grazing here with the sheep. it has come back as high risk for horses due to 1) ergot, and 2)"emerging mycotoxins" Enniatin A/A1 and B/B1, which are all associated with liver damage. Enniatins are apparently a secondary metabolism product of Fusarium fungi (from looking this up myself). I have been somewhat vaguely advised via email to deep till, leave over winter, and reseed (with an ergot resistant grass), although Im not sure if that is only relevant for the ergot. I need to speak to them further about why they are saying that, and also about how eg fusarium behaves. I have been broadly informed that mild weather increases mycotoxin risks, although when these samples were sent off it had been very hot - which someone else at Alltech had told me was a good time to test as the grasses would be stressed and more likely to show (take up?) mycotoxins. A little randomly they sent me an article about ergot in ryegrass so I asked if they could confirm the type of grass with ergot in my sample as I dont think it was ryegrass but they told me no because they were not plant specialists, a bit disjointed of them, although maybe doesnt matter.

My vet is now hopeful that this is "the cause", although it could only really (potentially) be "the cause" since they have grazed this field in particular (since April), so this second bout of liver damage following recovery earlier in the year; unless you were to extrapolate from these results that at a similar time of year (august last year) the other two fields they had grazed would have suffered similarly, though not tested at this time. Which is possible of course. I do suspect there was ergot here last year i just wouldnt have known what to look for. I suspect as you say Purbee that it is likely to be several things all coming together, and would prefer to reduce the other possible risks also as far as possible rather than jumping on this alone.

Unfortunately we didnt qualify for the Liphook study in the end. The way they are doing it is comparing affected and unaffected horses on the same yard to see what comes up in their urine, to have an idea about what is significant but as all of mine were affected we couldnt do it - also they needed samples before any changes were made so this time round I had also already moved them away and put two on steroids. They are all on Legaphyton which contains milk thistle and Nutra Pro LV (vitamin E). Will be weaning off steroids in the next couple of weeks and further bloods done on 9/8/22.

 

[Cecilrides]

thank you, I will ask RVC.

I don't know, I'd called the vet out for a mild colic and while we were going through possible causes, I mentioned mine had had raised enzymes in the past and she mentioned the study.

heard back from the head of equine at RVC - they don’t have any recent studies on this unfortunately!
I briefly explained our circumstances and she said couldn’t comment on a case under the care of another vet. which I appreciate and wasn’t after specific advice, but more any general suggestions of other things to investigate In such a case.
would Anyone know whether I would specifically have to request a ‘second opinion’ to get other vets to comment? Obviously would pay for their time either way, but I more want more minds to contribute who might have other suggestions/experience, not instead of my own vet who has been great and who I also don’t want to feel overrided. Is such a thing possible, or do people think I should just specifically request a second opinion if I want other advice? Obv I don’t know that they would say anything different, but then you also don’t know what you don’t know, so perhaps they might.

 

[criso]

Odd about the study, I wonder what the vet was thinking of

From my experience, I'm not necessarily convinced that a referral will help

When I was having problems my vet was very honest in admitting they are left scratching their heads in a lot of these cases. He's had people who have spent a fortune on sending off samples to specialist labs and still not got an answer. I ended up moving but it's different if it's your own land.

 

[PurBee]

.
I have actually just got some mycotoxin results back from Alltech from the field they were most recently grazing here with the sheep. it has come back as high risk for horses due to 1) ergot, and 2)"emerging mycotoxins" Enniatin A/A1 and B/B1, which are all associated with liver damage. .

Great to read you got lab results back. That’s helped put symptoms and cause together.

There’s so many mycotoxins, when i delve deep into grasses and their associated ‘potential’ mould issues for grazing, we realise its a common issue, and symptoms can be lacking due to the liver being extremely good at working hard under stress, and mostly not showing extreme or overt outward symptoms, until it’s really struggling.

What you are discovering is the ‘elephant in the room’ regarding equine forage/grazing issues. Its very common for there to be funguses : mycotoxins…the symptoms are usually vague, easily attributed to other causes.
Some forage companies proudly claim they test clear for aspergillus, as most owners have no idea there‘s hundreds of possilbe moulds/funguses that can infect forage.

The statistics for these issues in grazing fields are eye-opening, and there’s rarely a field tested that tests completely clear. Most fields globally tested has some type of fungus. Many funguses are harmless, some are very toxic.
Its a part of nature, and like you said with your sample taken during the heat stress, at times like stress, grasses and funguses join together to help each other survive.
One in-depth fungal study of hays found 80% of hays tested to have moulds.
This issue is extraordinarily common, yet really hard to pin-point exact cause and exact symptoms. The animals are just ‘off’…nothing overt usually.

Your post has had me thinking about these grazing/grass issues more deeply. Of course in nature, grazing animals, be them horses, goats, deer etc, roam freely. Their natural wild senses will tell them to move on from any patch of forage that tastes ‘off’ to their senses.
I had a feral herd graze overgrown wild lands next to my land so had opportunity to observe their behaviour. What surprised me is that it was winter and they were still only interested in eating small fresh growing grass tips. They ignored completely the long dried stems of tall fescue and other long grasses. This caused me to inspect what they ignored and discovered black spot moulds, and ergot on some heads. Many heads were without visual moulds yet still not eaten, so i split open the grass stalks to find mould spores/dust within the standing hay.
To our eyes a field can look edible, but the animals, given choice, do reject an awful lot - yet we with our domestic horses lock them in a field and give them no choice but to eat from that field.
I think domestic horses therefore learn to ignore their natural senses of distaste for infected plants, and due to hunger, eat whats available.

I’ll include some links below for you to read through which i found interesting in your case.

The suggestion to plough, wait a winter and re-seed spring, is probably to kill any fungal spores in your soil by exposing the soil to rains/cold/frost/possible snow.
That is based soley on the assumption that ergot moulds live in the soil and infect plants. Yet in my experience with ergot in particular, the climatic conditions play a heavier role in its development, regardless of whether its in the soil or not.
Most funguses/moulds favour some warmth, some moisture - so the uk had a lot of reports last summer of ergot on various grass seed heads due to the wetter than usual summer.
Im in ireland, its wet and warm most times - ergot is common and will commonly infect vernal/ryegrass/tall fescue grasses. Cocksfoot possible. Other fescue with teeny tiny seed heads are rare to be infected.
Yet, during drier summers/autumns, ergot will not develop. These are soils that havent been ploughed for decades.
So, irrespective of ploughing the soil, ergot will form or not, depending primarily on environmental/climatic ‘perfect’ conditions.

I re-sowed a field and tilled the top soil, which should help break-up and kill any soil fungal colonies, and got some ryegrass heads infected with ergot. Fresh seed, fresh soil - not stressed by grazing - left to grow.

As you’ve stated the fields you grazed /are grazing are long - i would think that the density of the grasses has helped funguses grow. There’s enough thatch at the bottom 5cm that never/rarely sees full sunlight, so is perfect breeding for spores to germinate and begin to affect grasses.
I once put my mare on a very long old meadow field, full of ‘standing hay’ and she literally stomped around, sniffing, rejecting, looking at me, snorting, inspecting other areas, eating some fresh grass tips she found beneath, but mainly stomped around rejecting it all! I took note of her reaction and opened up other fields.
While she was pregnant she rejected all the tall fescue long lush grass that easily gets ergot on the seed heads later in the year…..ergot is a strong abortive - i had no idea back then. I wondered why she wasnt eating any of the long lush grasses. After she foaled, she started eating it!
(I dont let any of the ergot prone grasses to develop seed heads - i top fields/areas regularly, especially late summer/autumn when ergot is prone if damp conditions ensue)

There’s a link below to a chinese study showing an overly grazed field will also produce funguses and therefore mycotoxins.
Grass gets stressed when short, it wants to survive. Animals need preventing from eating it so short - so nature gives plants fungus relationships to change the taste of the plant and stop animals grazing. Another reason why grazing paddocks very short is a bad idea. These are funguses within the grass, not visually detectable.

I suspect the grass sensitive equines with sugar metabolism issues, are primarily those who have mycotoxicosis, which many of the funguses will inhibit or upgrade aromatase p450 enzyme responsible for estrogenic activity, and once the endorcine system is altered due to mycotoxins, then its a battle to understand fully the etiology of development. Everyone is concerned its sugars in grass - as long grass causes symptoms, so short paddocks are grazed, short stressed grass perpetuates the cycle, because they produce mycotoxins too - soon hay is fed to control symptoms and all grass is avoided or muzzled - whereas the possible mycotoxic cause goes un-recognised and unhealed.

As you know, testing for this is very hit and miss. The metabolism of mycotoxins rarely show up on bloods due to it being more gut-centric - as you know. Yet tests of the forage can show them IF we collect samples at peak fungal/grass stress times.

The best field management practice we can control to minimise funguses in forage is to keep the grass to a healthy growing length, but not allow it to get so long that the lower few inches become constantly damp and dark.
That would equate to a grass ley of around 3 inches standing where grass isnt stressed, is actively growing, soil and grass leaf receives light/uv to kill funguses. That ley would be allowed to grow to 5-6inches to be grazed back down to 3 inches. That is the safest way to manage grass for grazing, to minimise as much as possible the growth of funguses.

The fusarium fungus has been researched by grass sickness sectors - there’s a link below. Fusarium is highly implicated. Liver issues is common. Symptoms are few. Until the liver really struggles. It seems that fusarium is extremely common and very damaging long term, so pasture management is key to minimizing its proliferation.


Continued…

 

[PurBee]

….

Remedies for helping horses: Mycotoxin binders containing saccromyces cerivisiae / yeasts aid in mopping up mycotoxins. Bentonite clay will absorb mycotoxins. Charcoal can be used with effect too.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23334096/

Its worth trying a full spectrum probiotic to aid gut bacteria multi population to grow as many of these are agents in destroying gut toxins.

Immune system support nutrients - Vit A, C,E, selenium, zinc aid the body’s ability to better deal with toxins.

Milk thistle you’re on already. Off-hand i cant think of a better liver regenerating/healing herb/seed than milk thistle but there are plenty of other herbs to help detox the liver. You can often find blends in bulk to add to feed. I would prefer to do a hot water extract tea of the herbs than just dump the raw dried herbs in the feed bowl. Hot water aids the herbs to release their medicinal compounds.
Im not familiar with your milk thistle product - but if you wanted to try a super-boost of milk thistle, you could consider getting hold of silymarin powder/capsules - which is the active ingredient in milk thistle identified to be the liver-healing aspect of the herb. Despite this, i would still give the whole herb (its actually the seed of the milk thistle plant that is the liver healing silymarin part)
Generally all compounds within a medicinal herb works synergistically together, despite us isolating the beneficial compound, we have no idea how they work in relation to the other compounds, so its always best ‘herbal practice’ to use the whole leaf or seed, aswell as give a super-dose of the highlighted compound. Mixed together, this then gives you a ’super milk thistle’ high dose potent blend.

Due to your fields having undesirable clovers - and you say there’s rather a lot….more than 10% - it would be beneficial to consider re-seed to get rid of the alsike clover. You can spray for immediate results but due to potential bare patches being left and more weeds germinating there, a re-seed ultimately would be advantageous.

The hay field you plan to use might be your best field as the base layer of the grass will have had UV exposure to kill spores/fungus/moulds - but, due to this unprecedented hot dry summer you folks in the uk are experiencing - i would personally want to see green growth of at least 2 inches before grazing it. The crown will have stored sugars, the dry heat will prevent growth, so the grass is stressed.

As most of your fields are long, i wonder if you can get a paddock/agri contractor in to cut and collect some fields? Cut to 4 inch length. There’s cutting machines that collect the cuttings. You might have to venture into the ‘golf green maintenance’ companies who own machines that collect all clippings.
Farmer/agri contractors generally use flail mowers as the mulch is shredded small inch pieces - to rot down fast. Farmers rarely own mulch collection cutting machines.
But given the length of your fields and the fact you already have funguses identified, leaving any mulch on your fields will only provide perfect conditions and food for fungus growth. Black mould will quickly take onto the clippings. You ideally need clean low cut fields. No mulch rotting at the base of the grass.

Regarding re-seeding - have a chat with the folks at cotswold seeds and tell them your soil type and climate type to pick perfect equine grass mix. Theyre very knowledgeable and helpful, offering advice to uk farmers for various agri solutions/practices. They do mixes without ryegrass too. I dont mind a small amount of traditional perennial ryegrass, 5-10% for horse grazing - but id steer clear of italian ryegrass and tetraploid as theyre bred specifically for high sugar/protein, rarely suiting most leisure horses.


https://www.grasssickness.org.uk/research/fusarium-study/

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11104-016-3103-y

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/jvim.16486

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19065580/

https://www.drovers.com/news/beef-production/5-ways-manage-mycotoxins

 

[Cecilrides]

Purbee, thanks for your replies. I was struck down by COVID last week, but feeling better now!

Interesting what your Observations have been on the ergot. what I am now gathering from the Alltech researchers (the mycotoxin testing people) is that the “deep till” won’t necessarily make a difference to the enniatins etc (emerging mycotoxins from fusarium mould) on that field, and that the ergot which they think is claviceps purpurea rather than the endophyte can be managed by not allowing the grass to develop seed heads. So I do not think ploughing would really help me much in any case. I haven’t yet worked out from them what you can do about the emerging mycotoxins - I was due to have a call with them last week but have rearranged to next week.

I also understand from them and the various articles they have sent me (not sure how to attach actual documents here but I can send them to you separately if you want?) that the presence of moulds can produce mycotoxins, but also that the mycotoxins can outlast the moulds - so whilst hot weather might inhibit mould growth, it won’t kill off mycotoxins once established. which may also be why they are not really detectable to horses unless the mould is present / or something actually visible like ergot - interesting about your mare and the ergot!

their latest blood show they are almost back into normal ranges thankfully. I will look into your milk thistle suggestion, thanks.

I am still waiting for the mycotoxin results back from 2 out of 3 fields at home. if they come back ok, what I am thinking at the moment is to spray one field for buttercup, bindweed and clover (pro green have suggested Leystar?) - the main culprits - I think you previously suggested a general glysophate spray? I am hoping to avoid also having to reseed If possible, I know your advice was on the basis there was “quite a lot”! Having looked at The field again they are mostly interspersed with the grass rather than whole areas of only eg clover. The top part has little grass but thinking of turning this into a mud control mat area. But I have never sprayed a field so I may be misjudging it and you will have been right!

Having been out of action for the last week I am now panicking a bit about time, all Three of the horses cannot stay at their current place beyond september (there would be space for two but I dont want to split off our retired mare if can be avoided) so I am looking to move them back onto that one field (subject to being clear from mycotoxins), having reduced as far as possible the clovers etc. it was cut short in July, a lot of the grass is still quite brown and short but we are having some rain this week and it looks to be recovering a little. Do you think 4.5 acres for three horses is too little to split into sections to rest and rotate?

hopefully I can get out of Alltech more of an actual management plan in terms of mycotoxin risk factors for the grazing beyond feeding a binder (which they are now on) - as you say the grass length seems to be one of the main ones, also not allowing the thatch to develop. But the testing process is so lengthy that it’s difficult to actually use that to inform immediate management decisions (takes about a month for results!).

the two long fields we will get cut and taken away (working on this) - though frankly atm I am just discounting the field with the emerging mycotoxins from use until I can get some info from someone on what to do about them. The research I have read really relates to crops and they seem to say spray.

thanks again

 

[brighteyes]

@PurBee

That’s it. I am giving up horses. My brain can’t compute your information - well, it can but doesn’t want to acknowledge the implications!

This thread has been both fascinating and horrifying to nightmare-inducing levels!

 

[PurBee]

@PurBee

That’s it. I am giving up horses. My brain can’t compute your information - well, it can but doesn’t want to acknowledge the implications!

This thread has been both fascinating and horrifying to nightmare-inducing levels!

When i first got horses on my own land as a first time owner - i had a meltdown for about 5 yrs with the stress - it wasn’t dealing with the horses, but the soil/grazing/safe/toxic forage /understanding/experimentation/research and management!
I had to move away for a 12 month break from it all, and return to continue the work! I never expected at ALL i’d be doing much work with land keeping horses, let alone identifying every grass/weed/toxin/fungus and researching them to death to get an understanding of how best to find a good balance for healthy horses in a domestic set-up. Its been the unintended, accidental ‘magnus opus’ of my existence…when i had planned something else entirely! ?

I plowed all my time/money and energy into sorting out the grazing/drainage/re-sowings/path-making in that time, and buying equipment to do it myself and maintain it, rather than putting all that into their training/tack/pleasure rides as originally planned. The land management solving issues swallowed up everything - I thought horses could be on any land, and they’d maintain it as necessary…i was very naive back then!

General rule of thumb thats far easier for all is to:
*keep land multi-species ‘safe equine’ grasses
*have legumes very minimal, best none at all.
*keep it topped (machine or grazing) to stop it from going to seed/excess growth harbouring fungus/moulds (unless its a hay field)
*allow healthy length 4-6” grass growth so grass isnt in stress/toxic mode.
*Spray-off or re-sow if toxic weeds are taking-over.

 

[PurBee]

Purbee, thanks for your replies. I was struck down by COVID last week, but feeling better now!

Interesting what your Observations have been on the ergot. what I am now gathering from the Alltech researchers (the mycotoxin testing people) is that the “deep till” won’t necessarily make a difference to the enniatins etc (emerging mycotoxins from fusarium mould) on that field, and that the ergot which they think is claviceps purpurea rather than the endophyte can be managed by not allowing the grass to develop seed heads. So I do not think ploughing would really help me much in any case. I haven’t yet worked out from them what you can do about the emerging mycotoxins - I was due to have a call with them last week but have rearranged to next week.

I also understand from them and the various articles they have sent me (not sure how to attach actual documents here but I can send them to you separately if you want?) that the presence of moulds can produce mycotoxins, but also that the mycotoxins can outlast the moulds - so whilst hot weather might inhibit mould growth, it won’t kill off mycotoxins once established. which may also be why they are not really detectable to horses unless the mould is present / or something actually visible like ergot - interesting about your mare and the ergot!

their latest blood show they are almost back into normal ranges thankfully. I will look into your milk thistle suggestion, thanks.

I am still waiting for the mycotoxin results back from 2 out of 3 fields at home. if they come back ok, what I am thinking at the moment is to spray one field for buttercup, bindweed and clover (pro green have suggested Leystar?) - the main culprits - I think you previously suggested a general glysophate spray? I am hoping to avoid also having to reseed If possible, I know your advice was on the basis there was “quite a lot”! Having looked at The field again they are mostly interspersed with the grass rather than whole areas of only eg clover. The top part has little grass but thinking of turning this into a mud control mat area. But I have never sprayed a field so I may be misjudging it and you will have been right!

Having been out of action for the last week I am now panicking a bit about time, all Three of the horses cannot stay at their current place beyond september (there would be space for two but I dont want to split off our retired mare if can be avoided) so I am looking to move them back onto that one field (subject to being clear from mycotoxins), having reduced as far as possible the clovers etc. it was cut short in July, a lot of the grass is still quite brown and short but we are having some rain this week and it looks to be recovering a little. Do you think 4.5 acres for three horses is too little to split into sections to rest and rotate?

hopefully I can get out of Alltech more of an actual management plan in terms of mycotoxin risk factors for the grazing beyond feeding a binder (which they are now on) - as you say the grass length seems to be one of the main ones, also not allowing the thatch to develop. But the testing process is so lengthy that it’s difficult to actually use that to inform immediate management decisions (takes about a month for results!).

the two long fields we will get cut and taken away (working on this) - though frankly atm I am just discounting the field with the emerging mycotoxins from use until I can get some info from someone on what to do about them. The research I have read really relates to crops and they seem to say spray.

thanks again

Hope you’re recovering speedily CR. Its great news the bloods are normalising.

The Leystar spray is a selective herbicide, so it kills weeds and leaves the grass. The recommendation for that spray is to keep animals off for 7 days.
So going that route would give you time-period to spray the weeds off , rest the field, and bring your horses back.

It’s advised that the plants to be killed have a few well developed leaves so the spray can absorb and kill throughout the whole plant. So a very tight grazed short field wouldnt be so suitable, as short plants receive a small dose and have the potential to regrow. Also, any field with a lot of grass mulch laying ontop wont respond well to the spray as the weeds are hidden under the mulch.

It’s best to spray on a very calm day, no winds/strong breezes. Also make sure dry weather follows for 48hrs after spraying. If you spray just before a downpour it’ll wash-off before it gets the chance to penetrate the plant leaves.

Once youve sprayed, it’ll help show you what percentage of your fields are weeds as you’ll see brown blotches.
Maybe have a 15kg bag of mixed grass seed on hand so you can sprinkle some seed on any areas that are brown/bare, after having been sprayed.

My glyphosate recommendation was for the scenario of there being 20% mass of weeds/clover in the field, and undesirable grasses - the glyphosate kills everything. All grasses and weeds. Its what used when a field needs to start from scratch to then be re-seeded.
Dont mass-spray glyphosate on any fields you want to keep the grass alive.

4.5 acres can be split into 3 and be rotated - with probably additional hay given as the months get leaner. If you bring horses in at night in winter that acreage will survive much better. It depends what the weather does this winter how well the land holds up.

Once you get the results back from the other topped fields, you’ll likely have more acreage to use come winter.

 

[Chuffy99]

PurBee, thank you this was fascinating informative reading

 

[Cecilrides]

When i first got horses on my own land as a first time owner - i had a meltdown for about 5 yrs with the stress - it wasn’t dealing with the horses, but the soil/grazing/safe/toxic forage /understanding/experimentation/research and management!
I had to move away for a 12 month break from it all, and return to continue the work! I never expected at ALL i’d be doing much work with land keeping horses, let alone identifying every grass/weed/toxin/fungus and researching them to death to get an understanding of how best to find a good balance for healthy horses in a domestic set-up. Its been the unintended, accidental ‘magnus opus’ of my existence…when i had planned something else entirely! ?

I plowed all my time/money and energy into sorting out the grazing/drainage/re-sowings/path-making in that time, and buying equipment to do it myself and maintain it, rather than putting all that into their training/tack/pleasure rides as originally planned. The land management solving issues swallowed up everything - I thought horses could be on any land, and they’d maintain it as necessary…i was very naive back then!

General rule of thumb thats far easier for all is to:
*keep land multi-species ‘safe equine’ grasses
*have legumes very minimal, best none at all.
*keep it topped (machine or grazing) to stop it from going to seed/excess growth harbouring fungus/moulds (unless its a hay field)
*allow healthy length 4-6” grass growth so grass isnt in stress/toxic mode.
*Spray-off or re-sow if toxic weeds are taking-over.

this really resonates with me, I feel like I am in the first year of the scales having fallen from my eyes that it’s not as simple as just moving horses home, putting them out on the fields and thinking everything will just be fine (even if your horses appear fine)- everyone becoming ill quite soon after precipitated a voyage of discovery I was not expecting to go on - and now most aspects of their management give me anxiety (bar the riding which I haven’t even been able to do for months!) - has The haylage gone off? Has it become too humid in the feed room? mere suspicion is now enough for a bag of haylage or feed to get the sack whereas before it was “probably fine”; what is that weird plant? (as I go round muttering if in doubt take it out). I’ve found it quite difficult with the horse being out on fields at the new place which aren’t mine because there are all sorts of even obvious things in there I wouldn’t want (apart from more usual things like the clovers etc) like acorns?! I have stacks of electric fence which I rig up around almost anything I don’t definitely know is safe, I no longer put any trust in my horses that they will know not to eat things that are bad for them (as they obviously couldnt tell before given the liver disease); the thought of storing hay (which I am considering going back to as I swear ive had so many off haylage bags recently - horsehage and also Yeoman) in a way that doesn’t increase the mould / mycotoxin risk practically gives me palpitations. I think we discussed the hay storage earlier in the thread actually I will go back and have a look. But yes it is all consuming! I don’t think I wish that I wasn’t on this journey, but sometimes it might be nice to enjoy my horses without worrying I am putting them at risk through the management of their environment and forage.

 

[ycbm]

I can't help but I want to thank you for sharing this painful saga and Purbee for her lengthy answers, as I have learnt a lot from it. I hope you get your own land right and your horses can move back home and thrive on it.
.

 

[Cecilrides]

Hope you’re recovering speedily CR. Its great news the bloods are normalising.

The Leystar spray is a selective herbicide, so it kills weeds and leaves the grass. The recommendation for that spray is to keep animals off for 7 days.
So going that route would give you time-period to spray the weeds off , rest the field, and bring your horses back.

It’s advised that the plants to be killed have a few well developed leaves so the spray can absorb and kill throughout the whole plant. So a very tight grazed short field wouldnt be so suitable, as short plants receive a small dose and have the potential to regrow. Also, any field with a lot of grass mulch laying ontop wont respond well to the spray as the weeds are hidden under the mulch.

It’s best to spray on a very calm day, no winds/strong breezes. Also make sure dry weather follows for 48hrs after spraying. If you spray just before a downpour it’ll wash-off before it gets the chance to penetrate the plant leaves.

Once youve sprayed, it’ll help show you what percentage of your fields are weeds as you’ll see brown blotches.
Maybe have a 15kg bag of mixed grass seed on hand so you can sprinkle some seed on any areas that are brown/bare, after having been sprayed.

My glyphosate recommendation was for the scenario of there being 20% mass of weeds/clover in the field, and undesirable grasses - the glyphosate kills everything. All grasses and weeds. Its what used when a field needs to start from scratch to then be re-seeded.
Dont mass-spray glyphosate on any fields you want to keep the grass alive.

4.5 acres can be split into 3 and be rotated - with probably additional hay given as the months get leaner. If you bring horses in at night in winter that acreage will survive much better. It depends what the weather does this winter how well the land holds up.

Once you get the results back from the other topped fields, you’ll likely have more acreage to use come winter.

thank you for the advice, good idea re the grass seed I will get some - re sprinkling over any bare patches , would it help to break up the soil before the seed? although maybe not with the horses on there, have always thought breaking up the soil and horses wasn’t a good idea.
I’ve been looking at getting the arenamate grass Harrow to help remove thatch on the field, rather than lugging around a chain harrow).
that is good to know, I will probably try and split it up in that case to allow parts to rest and recover to some extent and keep them off it more over the winter.

 

[Cecilrides]

I can't help but I want to thank you for sharing this painful saga and Purbee for her lengthy answers, as I have learnt a lot from it. I hope you get your own land right and your horses can move back home and thrive on it.
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thanks ycbm, I hope so. I’m glad it is useful reading for others!