Have I poisoned all of my horses

[PurBee]

thank you for the advice, good idea re the grass seed I will get some - re sprinkling over any bare patches , would it help to break up the soil before the seed? although maybe not with the horses on there, have always thought breaking up the soil and horses wasn’t a good idea.
I’ve been looking at getting the arenamate grass Harrow to help remove thatch on the field, rather than lugging around a chain harrow).
that is good to know, I will probably try and split it up in that case to allow parts to rest and recover to some extent and keep them off it more over the winter.

I use a similar design harrow to the arenamate harrow. The tines are adjustable so you can lightly scratch, or do a deep harrow.
The field you are planning on spraying, i would harrow after spraying…if thats the field you were thinking of harrowing. The harrowing can bring-up a lot to the surface, dropping clumps of thatch on top, depending on how much thatch you have. So, best to spray a upright growing field without mulch/thatch sitting on top of the grass.

With harrowing, if there’s a lot of thatch, i do long lines of the field - stop at one end of a line, near edge of fence, when the tines are full of thatch and shake-off the thatch - i use a mini tractor with PTO arm lift so can wobble the harrow up and down. Then i start a new run with clean tines, and stop at the other end of the line, shake off the thatch. This method stops the thatch being distributed all over the field on top of the grass. A method i use if i want to graze the field soon after harrowing.
With a field i can rest for a few weeks before needing to graze it, i’ll harrow all over and allow the thatch to disperse on top, and dry-up/rot.

With the grass seed - if you have large bald patches of 30cm or more, you could scatter seed and gently hand rake the patches to help mix the seed into the soil a bit. Most parts you could scatter seed and find the horses walking over it will help press the seed into the soil to germinate. Over-seeding is a popular technique of simply scattering seed on a thinning field and the seed will be washed down to soil level by rain or animal foot traffic, and germinate. It’s a way of re-seeding some grasses you like, without having to start from scratch with a field.

You’ll get there. I know how disheartening it can be to discover horses eat plants that arent good for them, and their instincts arent so fine tuned to be avoiding these plants. Many fields used for cows, have as a preference to that industry, lots of clover purposefully sown. Clover has its toxin issues aswell as nutritional density issues for horses, so is the worst plant that makes such fields incompatible for other grazing animals, especially horses. Yet i find, horses absolutely adore clover, and will make a concerted effort to eat any as close to the soil as they can find! I have some growing on rocky paths and my horses will squish their mouths and tight graze the small patches of clover.

With your circumstances and needs right now for your horses to be back at home with you, spray with a selective herbicide would enable the fastest method to get rid of the weeds. It will help your research of their health status moving forward, as the clover and other weeds will be eliminated by the spray, improving the chances of much healthier grazing for them.

A device that is handy to have, is what i call ‘the dragon’ - its a kerosene fuelled large flame weed killer. The flame is under pressure and roars like a lion when its in use! These devices can be used if you find a clump of unwanted weeds around the land that you want to immediately kill without having to weed them out. The flame can kill them to a crisp and ash, immediately neutralising all toxins of any toxic plants you find. This method is useful for a few patches you may find here and there, but too time-consuming if you have 10+acres and lots of weeds.

Hay storage is another subject. The best piece of equipment any forage feeder needs is a moisture tester. 30 quid from ebay/amazon made in china…or 200 quid made in china with a john deere sticker on it! ? The accuracy of cheaper units compared to more expensive devices is very similar.
When buying hay, any bales that show more than 20% moisture will be impossible to store no matter the method of storage. Thats enough moisture for moulds to be growing within the bale. I prefer 15% or below moisture for hay.
Fresh baled hay will show higher readings, and then once ‘cured’/allowed to breathe for a few weeks after baling, should settle below 20%.
These figures are the difference between having mould-free hay and hay you need to soak. One lot of hay i got, round bales, stored for 1 year, were 24%. I risked it - and had to soak the whole lot, as inside there was a musty smell, and if i‘m sneezing after nosing-it — i know its no good for horses.

Haylage 40-55% is preferred for feeding. We can get away with feeding outside these values, but it might be slightly over or under-fermented. Under-fermented means we have to allow for higher sugar content, especially for ryegrass haylage. Over-fermented means it’ll be more vinegary/acidic/ensiled, so horse may have gut distress.
The moisture tester is useful to have if feeding haylage too.
Haylage is easier to tell visually if its not good - it tends to grow grey/black mould patches. It smells very weird when off.

When we have a good quality mould-free mixed forage hay/lage supply and a good regularly grazed and rested mixed grass field without too many toxic plants, to graze the horses on, keeping horses is a delight. It’s super easy to keep them, if we can have these 2 aspects of their care managed well. Then we just have to deal with work-induced injuries ?

If youre interested in good quality hay, I enquired with Abbott Wessex hay suppliers in the uk about hay. The lovely old man i spoke with there knew his stuff about hay, and i stressed to him the importance of low moisture/mixed meadow hay. His company scour the uk for good hay suppliers/farmers and so can source whatever you require. I was going to import a truck load here to ireland but the transport costs made it eye-wateringly expensive, 2k, so i didn’t go down that route. But i can recommend a call to them to detail your requirements if you are in the uk - as you’ll be likely to purchase/have delivered a ‘test bale’ before committing to buying tonnes.

 

[poiuytrewq]

I can’t advise sorry, way over my pay grade.
I’ve been reading through though and interestingly it’s very much like a case locally to me.
My OH bosses family rent out a small yard and grazing. The first tenant had no issues but was only there very short term. The second’s horses all (6 of them) went into liver failure. All varying degrees but 3 were sent away to live with family and recovered instantly. The others started the most intense research by the owners who couldn’t find the issue, eventually had to leave and again those 3 horses made a fast full recovery.
Tenant 3 came along. His horses also all became very sick. This time it was taken very seriously and everything tested, everything came back as fine, grass soil water etc etc
A fortune, literally was spent trying to fix this.
Those horses also all had to be moved on. All also absolutely fine now.
So this lovely yard stands empty. It’s now had all the grazing ploughed over, they are going to crop the fields and try reseeding as grazing in a year or so in the hope it may be better.

 

[Cecilrides]

Purbee, thanks for your helpful advice as ever. We were planning on going ahead with the spraying of that field this week, our local farmer had managed to organise borrowing a larger sprayer from his friend to come over and do it for us (to help increase the chances of its success given the size of the field); I spent part of the weekend hand raking up old bits of cut grass covering up bits of weeds and clover etc to give them a clear shot at it all. I have grass seed arriving shortly.

that field was the one the horses had previously recovered on earlier in the year (and indeed in March had come back clear on mycotoxin tests), so whilst we were still awaiting the most recent mycotoxin test results I was expecting it to be relatively safe.

more fool me because the mycotoxin results for that field have just come back. I had split the field into two for sampling, the drier part and the wetter part bordering the river. Both parts separately have come back Very High Risk for Horses. The drier part scored moderately for Type B Trichothecenes which include DON (deoxynivalenol) and Fusarenon-X (latter 5 times more potent than DON); and moderately for our friends the Emerging Mycotoxins including Enniatins and Moniliformin. Taken together this puts the dry part of the field into very high risk, and “can impact.. digestion, gut health, liver function and immune response” (Alltech comment), Rossdales comment “this level of exposure .. with multiple classes of mycotoxins is likely to have an adverse effect on equine health”.
the wetter part of that field is worse: Type B trichothecenes - moderate; Type A Trichothecenes - very high (I won’t list what these are, in random collection of letter territory and spell check is already struggling!); emerging mycotoxins - very high. Overall very high risk for horses. Alltech comment Type A Trichs and enniatins can impact liver function etc; Rossdales “very high levels likely to be clinically relevant”.

I am speaking to Alltech this afternoon to see if there is any hope for this field but honestly I just don’t see how I can put the horses back on there. Consequently I don’t think there is now any point in spraying, which whilst would have tackled another possible risk factor of the clovers etc I do not think will change the mycotoxin risk. Spraying has been put off for now.

There is one field left to go to have the results back, but that field was previously worse for them in terms of their liver enzyme levels, so I dont have very high hopes (not that that will necessarily follow, judging by these results for a field they had previously improved on). The lab also don’t seem to be able to find the last field results even though the samples predate the ones above and it is a month since I sent them (and arrived - I tracked them). Maybe I will have to send off more samples for that field.

I will be shortly be running out of rope at their current other grazing where they will not be able to stay beyond mid September. I now do not think they can move home at all (slim hope on that last field and subject to Alltech call today but right now I feel dream=dead).

so now looking for alternatives (Again). I think I have already exhausted the local “grazing for rent” options and am looking a bit further afield for more of a supported grass livery (which it would have to be if more than half an hour from me I think), bit of a tall order for three horses, actual livery for all three I dont think I can manage financially. I really don’t want to have to send my retired mare somewhere else if I can avoid it. It seems cheaper to rent an actual farmhouse in France with space for all the horses than finding somewhere here for only my horses to live!

also Purbee, thank you for the hay info, that company does look good, I will check them out depending on whether I will need to be sourcing my own hay now.

 

[Cecilrides]

I can’t advise sorry, way over my pay grade.
I’ve been reading through though and interestingly it’s very much like a case locally to me.
My OH bosses family rent out a small yard and grazing. The first tenant had no issues but was only there very short term. The second’s horses all (6 of them) went into liver failure. All varying degrees but 3 were sent away to live with family and recovered instantly. The others started the most intense research by the owners who couldn’t find the issue, eventually had to leave and again those 3 horses made a fast full recovery.
Tenant 3 came along. His horses also all became very sick. This time it was taken very seriously and everything tested, everything came back as fine, grass soil water etc etc
A fortune, literally was spent trying to fix this.
Those horses also all had to be moved on. All also absolutely fine now.
So this lovely yard stands empty. It’s now had all the grazing ploughed over, they are going to crop the fields and try reseeding as grazing in a year or so in the hope it may be better.

this is interesting and chilling at the same time, how difficult for them. It is awful when there is so much at stake (ie writing off a whole yard and grazing) and no one can work out how to solve it. Do you know if they did mycotoxin tests? I was going to pursue a wider range of soil tests etc but if I can’t work out what to do about these mycotoxins, which at the moment are the most clinically relevant front runner, I’m not sure there is any point in us pouring more money into other tests. Will be interesting to see what the ploughing does.

 

[PurBee]

Purbee, thanks for your helpful advice as ever. We were planning on going ahead with the spraying of that field this week, our local farmer had managed to organise borrowing a larger sprayer from his friend to come over and do it for us (to help increase the chances of its success given the size of the field); I spent part of the weekend hand raking up old bits of cut grass covering up bits of weeds and clover etc to give them a clear shot at it all. I have grass seed arriving shortly.

that field was the one the horses had previously recovered on earlier in the year (and indeed in March had come back clear on mycotoxin tests), so whilst we were still awaiting the most recent mycotoxin test results I was expecting it to be relatively safe.

more fool me because the mycotoxin results for that field have just come back. I had split the field into two for sampling, the drier part and the wetter part bordering the river. Both parts separately have come back Very High Risk for Horses. The drier part scored moderately for Type B Trichothecenes which include DON (deoxynivalenol) and Fusarenon-X (latter 5 times more potent than DON); and moderately for our friends the Emerging Mycotoxins including Enniatins and Moniliformin. Taken together this puts the dry part of the field into very high risk, and “can impact.. digestion, gut health, liver function and immune response” (Alltech comment), Rossdales comment “this level of exposure .. with multiple classes of mycotoxins is likely to have an adverse effect on equine health”.
the wetter part of that field is worse: Type B trichothecenes - moderate; Type A Trichothecenes - very high (I won’t list what these are, in random collection of letter territory and spell check is already struggling!); emerging mycotoxins - very high. Overall very high risk for horses. Alltech comment Type A Trichs and enniatins can impact liver function etc; Rossdales “very high levels likely to be clinically relevant”.

I am speaking to Alltech this afternoon to see if there is any hope for this field but honestly I just don’t see how I can put the horses back on there. Consequently I don’t think there is now any point in spraying, which whilst would have tackled another possible risk factor of the clovers etc I do not think will change the mycotoxin risk. Spraying has been put off for now.

There is one field left to go to have the results back, but that field was previously worse for them in terms of their liver enzyme levels, so I dont have very high hopes (not that that will necessarily follow, judging by these results for a field they had previously improved on). The lab also don’t seem to be able to find the last field results even though the samples predate the ones above and it is a month since I sent them (and arrived - I tracked them). Maybe I will have to send off more samples for that field.

I will be shortly be running out of rope at their current other grazing where they will not be able to stay beyond mid September. I now do not think they can move home at all (slim hope on that last field and subject to Alltech call today but right now I feel dream=dead).

so now looking for alternatives (Again). I think I have already exhausted the local “grazing for rent” options and am looking a bit further afield for more of a supported grass livery (which it would have to be if more than half an hour from me I think), bit of a tall order for three horses, actual livery for all three I dont think I can manage financially. I really don’t want to have to send my retired mare somewhere else if I can avoid it. It seems cheaper to rent an actual farmhouse in France with space for all the horses than finding somewhere here for only my horses to live!

also Purbee, thank you for the hay info, that company does look good, I will check them out depending on whether I will need to be sourcing my own hay now.

I’m so sorry to read this CR - the results are not what you wanted of course, but at least you know that field cannot be used.

Your case has me re-researching mycotoxins and more importantly, solutions for regenerating fields, eliminating the mycotoxins.
I have a few ideas, but want to research more to see if there’s already studies showing effective control. In organic farming many types of bacteria/nemotodes/‘healthy’ biological agents are sprayed onto plants for these organisms to ‘eat’ moulds/ or insects causing plant moulds etc - so now you have the mycotoxins identified by the lab, the research can be better focused.

What specific plants did you sample from the wet side and the dry side - do you remember? Was the sample the tops of very long grasses or the whole grass stalks including seed head? Did you include clover in the sample?
If you could describe in detail the type of plant sample you sent for analysis, that may highlight certain plants/parts causing high toxicity.
Normally these toxins are in seed heads, affect stored grain etc - rather than be within fresh growing grass.

Also, when did you take these particular samples - was it during the height of the heatwave/during long dry weather, or before? (I recall you mentioned you sent a sample during the dry heat of one field)

It’s interesting the wetter part came back with very high counts. It tells us, that despite these mycotoxins being present all over the field, and even surviving the heatwave - the wetter side helps them survive/proliferate more.

South of France sounds good! I’ll join you, having had enough of wet windy weather where i am! ?

Im wondering if you have a yard area at your home acreage for you horses to move onto? Some farms have large yards that in winter cows wander when the fields are too boggy.
When my fields are unsuitable, due to boggy weather mainly, i was forced to build a large hard-standing area as a ‘dry turnout’ area, that comes off of their bedded shelter. I can have them turned out on this whenever for whatever reasons, the fields cant be used. I hay/lage them of course, and can control their dietary intake. I did it when I discovered ergot first time years ago.

If you have no hardstanding - how about a very dry small section of field near their stables, if you stable, or has shelter, and remains dry over winter? This is a temporary idea, that brings your horses back by mid september. Limited exposure to the land is required - and if you ride 2 of the 3, that will give them the exercise theyll like due to limited turn-out.

Long wild grown-type fields harbour all kinds of myco’s, if a field section could be scalped, mulch collected off too - the soil and base of grass would be exposed to UV light which dries the base and kills myco’s.

Your plan was to spray but im now leaning to a very short cut with a cutter/collector agri machine as the more effective route to go now youve had these results. UV light is used in water filtration to kill a varying array of nasties, its a very effective killer of most of natures decaying microbes.

You said your fields were very long - and if a long grass sample, with seedhead was sent in to get this result - that wouldnt surprise me.
The remedy would be usually for moulds/myco’s to get the ley cut off/baled off and remaining stubble dried-out/ sun/U.V exposure. The resulting new growth should be myco-free.

As youre already on this journey it may well be worth trying that as an experiment with the high-count fields youve just got results from. Even if you do a small area by hand with a hand-mower with collector bag, as an experiment - cut it short - 1 inch - so the last of the summer sun/heat can expose the base of grass and soil to UV light - no mulch left - after 10 days of sun weather, cut a sample and get that tested. Do a little section in the dry part and a little section in the wet part. Have both new short samples after UV exposure tested.
Can you get a sample fast-track tested?

(N.B - UV exposure is so effective and powerful to kill most nasties, when using it to clean water of bugs, mere seconds exposure are required to kill them off. Therefore, leaving an area exposed to UV for days on end will be a potent amount of UV)


Look forward to hearing if Alltech has any advice regarding what maintenance to do from here, as they surely deal with many land owners and have other cases similar to yours, so fingers crossed other farms experience they can advise on.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

@Cecilrides Any update on your horses?

I found this extremely helpful to read through. I hope your horses are making a recovery! @PurBee has been an excellent mind full of knowledge to me already via private message. (Thank you!)

My 5yo mare was diagnosed with severe liver damage in October 2022, she was very lethargic and quiet to ride. Suspected fields, so moved opposite side of the livery yard. Adding milk thistle and vitamin E. Re tested in November and a dramatic improvement.

We have just had another blood test which shows significant liver damage again (worse than originally in October!) she has been kept on milk thistle and vitamin E the entire time.

My vet and the pathologist want to take bloods of 2 other livery horses this week and one livery has decided to blood test hers separately. We suspected haylage (contamination from human feces) and I did start to feed some haylage in December (stupid I know) but it could be the hay or grazing - grazing is now very short and stressed being mid winter although they’re all hayed while out.

It’s a mindfield.. I don’t really want to pay for grazing or forage testing because it’s £250+ per sample I believe with Altech (?) and being a livery it doesn’t feel the responsibility lies with me.

Hoping once we get some other horses results we can see if it’s a yard issue or just my horse (which would be bizarre)

 

[Charrose77]

thanks so much for the v interesting response! The membrane sounds like a great idea.
re the big haylage bales, I think you’re right without somewhere they could be more protected I would be a bit worried about them being out in the elements. But appreciate the suggestions on the big bale suppliers as I could potentially try and keep them inside somewhere if they would get through enough of it.
More blood tests next weekend so hopefully all will have continued to improve.
The ex racer seems generally quite unhappy though especially around his belly and he is usually quite an easy going chap so I am having him scoped next week.
liphook have sent some urine pots to collect some samples so I will be waiting around to catch some wee !

How are the horses now? Did you ever pin point the cause? Did all recover well?

 

[poiuytrewq]

this is interesting and chilling at the same time, how difficult for them. It is awful when there is so much at stake (ie writing off a whole yard and grazing) and no one can work out how to solve it. Do you know if they did mycotoxin tests? I was going to pursue a wider range of soil tests etc but if I can’t work out what to do about these mycotoxins, which at the moment are the most clinically relevant front runner, I’m not sure there is any point in us pouring more money into other tests. Will be interesting to see what the ploughing does.

Apologies I missed this.
How are your horses doing Cecilrides?
I really hope you’re all in a better place.

The yard near me has horses again. They are very rarely out though. The original fields are now cropped.
They are lucky in that the LL is a farm land owner (as opposed to someone owning 5 just acres of grazing) so was able to switch some other land to grazing. As far as I know it’s not been used though, I’m not sure why. It’s cut for hay and the horses eating the hay are apparently all ok and it will be grazed after the next hay crop is taken off.
The horses will be carefully monitored when they get turned out and tested so it will be interesting to see the outcome of that. I *suspect they may have problems. I’m rubbish with distances but it’s only a few minutes walk from the problematic fields.
I believe the plan is to leave the original fields in the crop plans for another year or so before trying as grazing again. Unless perhaps this new grazing plan works out in which case it would seem a fairly pointless expense.

 

[Charrose77]

@Cecilrides Any update on your horses?

I found this extremely helpful to read through. I hope your horses are making a recovery! @PurBee has been an excellent mind full of knowledge to me already via private message. (Thank you!)

My 5yo mare was diagnosed with severe liver damage in October 2022, she was very lethargic and quiet to ride. Suspected fields, so moved opposite side of the livery yard. Adding milk thistle and vitamin E. Re tested in November and a dramatic improvement.

We have just had another blood test which shows significant liver damage again (worse than originally in October!) she has been kept on milk thistle and vitamin E the entire time.

My vet and the pathologist want to take bloods of 2 other livery horses this week and one livery has decided to blood test hers separately. We suspected haylage (contamination from human feces) and I did start to feed some haylage in December (stupid I know) but it could be the hay or grazing - grazing is now very short and stressed being mid winter although they’re all hayed while out.

It’s a mindfield.. I don’t really want to pay for grazing or forage testing because it’s £250+ per sample I believe with Altech (?) and being a livery it doesn’t feel the responsibility lies with me.

Hoping once we get some other horses results we can see if it’s a yard issue or just my horse (which would be bizarre)

What was the outcome and how is your horse now? I am having similar problem, we have however just done the all tech grass test and waiting for results. How is your Mare?

 

[Hormonal Filly]

What was the outcome and how is your horse now? I am having similar problem, we have however just done the all tech grass test and waiting for results. How is your Mare?

Long story short, every single horse kept on the livery yard had liver damage of some kind. One in liver failure. The YO was unwilling to do anything, everyone left and I stayed for a month but kept her off the grass. In that month her liver improved and then I found another yard.

Her liver is totally back to normal now, as is all of the other horses that left the livery yard (9) the yard owner still has his horses there and apparently they’ve recovered, know they had grazing tests done but they won’t share the results. Have closed down the livery yard now. We all think it was mycotoxins in the grazing.

 

[Charrose77]

Long story short, every single horse kept on the livery yard had liver damage of some kind. One in liver failure. The YO was unwilling to do anything, everyone left and I stayed for a month but kept her off the grass. In that month her liver improved and then I found another yard.

Her liver is totally back to normal now, as is all of the other horses that left the livery yard (9) the yard owner still has his horses there and apparently they’ve recovered, know they had grazing tests done but they won’t share the results. Have closed down the livery yard now. We all think it was mycotoxins in the grazing.

I’m so glad to hear your mare recovered fully, shame you had to move……..I really hope that’s not the case here but I am preparing myself for that. Our grass went off for testing this week, we shall see

 

[Hormonal Filly]

I’m so glad to hear your mare recovered fully, shame you had to move……..I really hope that’s not the case here but I am preparing myself for that. Our grass went off for testing this week, we shall see

Even if you don’t find anything from the grass result, test one or two more horses just to confirm it isn’t just yours. Best of luck. Keep in touch how you get on xx