Have we got it wrong?

[milliepops]

I saw Peter Madison Greenwell (?) at Bolsover and saw stressed little horses scurrying around being bounced off the walls. I've watched a video of someone supposed to be a master, forget his name (1950's ?) riding one handed with the whip in his face, again with the horse scurrying around looking very, very tense. I have seen the SRS too, and that was much better. But none of it floats my boat. As I admit, though, too little appreciation of how much skill is involved.

There is "good" and "bad" in all areas of equestrian sport though, dunno, it's not my thing either. Just thinking of how you can watch a less accomplished GP in the same competition as Carl, or some top SJers make it look more effortless than others

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I can tell you who can teach you feel - Mark Rashid has a DVD which will tell you how to feel which leg is doing what. Routine for cowboys I gather, as they do canter change of leg at a very early stage of training. Every course I have been on taught me something valuable, and at most of them me and the other participants were wailing "why haven't we been taught this before!" The big trouble is that even these wonderful teachers didn't all agree on everything either! So I am thinking of Mary Wanless, Heather Moffett, Deb Bennett.

I can hardly believe that anyone needs to watch a DVD to learn how to feel which leg is doing what! I was taught that at a run-of-the mill RS in the late 60s/early 70s. And yes the teaching was good, excellent even, the ponies well-schooled and of varying types but the facilities were nothing to write home about. Admittedly, the local PC, where the RIs also taught, produced highly successful international competitors but I thought at the time that every RS was teaching similarly - and in fact, I still do, knowing that all the owners/instructors were involved with the local Hunt/PC.

 

[FfionWinnie]

Behavioural issues improve or indeed resolve quickly with the right rider. My speciality is nappers. I've had loads of nappers. All of them were sorted out within a few days with no reoccurrence while I had them. You're either training your horse or untraining it. There's no in between.

However my beloved cob recently started to the outsider's eye to be "napping". Couple of people including the vet told me to ride through it. I know 100% she isn't nappy and there is something wrong. She has a muscle disorder which makes diagnostics harder. She initially puts her ears back, then refuses to go forwards and if I persist she will buck. She's not a bucker, nor is she a napper.

So while her behaviour is similar to the first horses I mentioned it has a different cause. Theirs was mental and down to previous poor slow to react riders. The cob, not so. I'll know she is right or not, from her behaviour. She's 100% genuine.

It's all down to our experiences and in mine, 9 out of 10 nappers were training issues. I would always try to train first but I feel sure I would know quite quickly if it were more than a training issue. To know that tho you have to be on their backs feeling their behaviour at the sharp end. Impossible to tell from the ground with another rider on because you can't feel.

 

[tristar]

the spanish s vienna, actually breed their own horses, select the ones most suitable and train them from scratch, this must close to the ideal.

Podhajsky left a great legacy in his training and book, the complete training of horses and rider, its only now i am starting to truly understand the wisdom of the man, one of the main principles is the methodical and humane way in which the training is undertaken

jerez and la cadre noir de saumur each seem to produce riders that are recognisable by their style of riding, i favour the iberian school personally as the combination of superb riding with a horse bred for the purpose can be thrilling to say the least,

i was watching a really narrow, elegant, fit new forest pony and a girl of 13 warming up for a comp and i`ve never seen a pony and rider work to such a high standard, they were trained by an instructor from saumur who was competing there at the same time, it was a million miles from the fat lazy, unresponsive ponies that live on the verge of lami, and shows it can be done, it does happen, its like breaking through to another layer of reality.


n

 

[tristar]

should be le cadre noir sorry

 

[Cortez]

the spanish s vienna, actually breed their own horses, select the ones most suitable and train them from scratch, this must close to the ideal.

Podhajsky left a great legacy in his training and book, the complete training of horses and rider, its only now i am starting to truly understand the wisdom of the man, one of the main principles is the methodical and humane way in which the training is undertaken

jerez and la cadre noir de saumur each seem to produce riders that are recognisable by their style of riding, i favour the iberian school personally as the combination of superb riding with a horse bred for the purpose can be thrilling to say the least,

i was watching a really narrow, elegant, fit new forest pony and a girl of 13 warming up for a comp and i`ve never seen a pony and rider work to such a high standard, they were trained by an instructor from saumur who was competing there at the same time, it was a million miles from the fat lazy, unresponsive ponies that live on the verge of lami, and shows it can be done, it does happen, its like breaking through to another layer of reality.


n

SRS use de la Guerinier's book as a basis for their training, as do the Royal School in Jerez. Your example of the kid on the NF pony proves the point - good riding/training comes from good instruction. Bad riding & training comes from......?

 

[Goldenstar]

The complete training of the horse and riders is my horsey bible .
I have been reading it since I was seventeen it's either in the kitchen or by my bed .
I think it's were my emphasis on system comes from.
I need a new copy mine has about had it .

 

[Goldenstar]

SRS use de la Guerinier's book as a basis for their training, as do the Royal School in Jerez. Your example of the kid on the NF pony proves the point - good riding/training comes from good instruction. Bad riding & training comes from......?

Well I suppose your thinking of bad training but I would add no training as well people get a horse and it's cheaper and easier ( because the old type riding schools have restricted in numbers so much ) than learning the right way .

 

[Mule]

Hello can you tell me how you retrain napping? I have one that can be quite nappy but you can't use a whip because he will rear .

Behavioural issues improve or indeed resolve quickly with the right rider. My speciality is nappers. I've had loads of nappers. All of them were sorted out within a few days with no reoccurrence while I had them. You're either training your horse or untraining it. There's no in between.

However my beloved cob recently started to the outsider's eye to be "napping". Couple of people including the vet told me to ride through it. I know 100% she isn't nappy and there is something wrong. She has a muscle disorder which makes diagnostics harder. She initially puts her ears back, then refuses to go forwards and if I persist she will buck. She's not a bucker, nor is she a napper.

So while her behaviour is similar to the first horses I mentioned it has a different cause. Theirs was mental and down to previous poor slow to react riders. The cob, not so. I'll know she is right or not, from her behaviour. She's 100% genuine.

It's all down to our experiences and in mine, 9 out of 10 nappers were training issues. I would always try to train first but I feel sure I would know quite quickly if it were more than a training issue. To know that tho you have to be on their backs feeling their behaviour at the sharp end. Impossible to tell from the ground with another rider on because you can't feel.

 

[fattylumpkin]

Just to add some meandering thoughts I've had while following this thread, I think part of the problem stems from how we view our horses these days as opposed to just a few decades ago. Previously, almost all horses were classed as some type of working horse, and in a working horse individualism was not something desirable, but something which needed to be repressed if a dray or hackney carriage horse was to put in 12 hours of solid labour without a whiff of protest. They were a work tool first. A workman would look after a horse (ideally) the same as any other equipment; see that its needs are met and maintain and care for it so that it could do its job properly. A very simple equation. The physical needs were met, therefore refusal to work when the time came was seen as behavioral and dealt with accordingly.

Nowadays it's popular to see horses as individuals with their own unique needs and wishes. We spend a lot of time and labour catering to our horses as individuals, and also a truck ton of money. There are hundreds of different philosophies and what is best or 'natural' for the horse. How to care for and maintain a horse so it can work is therefore a heck of a lot more complicated than it was before. We even try to cater to what we know or imagine the horse likes or dislikes. So when problems happen and a horse refuses to work, there's a huge fuzzy grey area between physical and behavioral which didn't exist before.

I'd say that as a result, people have become more inclined to blame the horse's refusal on something physical because it's the more concrete concept of the two to deal with (just chuck money at the problem until it goes away) and because there's always someone selling a commercial solution to every physical problem with horses you can name. Behavioral problems can only be dealt with via experience and knowledge, and those are hard to come by these days.

*Continues prattling at a soft drone until everyone passes out*

 

[ycbm]

^^^ Like

 

[HufflyPuffly]

Behavioural issues improve or indeed resolve quickly with the right rider. My speciality is nappers. I've had loads of nappers. All of them were sorted out within a few days with no reoccurrence while I had them. You're either training your horse or untraining it. There's no in between.

However my beloved cob recently started to the outsider's eye to be "napping". Couple of people including the vet told me to ride through it. I know 100% she isn't nappy and there is something wrong. She has a muscle disorder which makes diagnostics harder. She initially puts her ears back, then refuses to go forwards and if I persist she will buck. She's not a bucker, nor is she a napper.

So while her behaviour is similar to the first horses I mentioned it has a different cause. Theirs was mental and down to previous poor slow to react riders. The cob, not so. I'll know she is right or not, from her behaviour. She's 100% genuine.

It's all down to our experiences and in mine, 9 out of 10 nappers were training issues. I would always try to train first but I feel sure I would know quite quickly if it were more than a training issue. To know that tho you have to be on their backs feeling their behaviour at the sharp end. Impossible to tell from the ground with another rider on because you can't feel.

Hello can you tell me how you retrain napping? I have one that can be quite nappy but you can't use a whip because he will rear .

Would also be interested in your thoughts on napping too as baby horse is nappy minded .

 

[Mule]

It's true that working horses are less pampered. Riding school horses are easy to manage and don't seem to have strong opinions. They still have to work for their keep though. They don't get the individual attention either. Crucially they aren't kept if they don't stay sound.

Before horses were used for leisure I'd imagine people were quicker to pts when the horse wasn't sound.They weren't as likely to get attached to them as we are nowadays. Mabey that's an explanation for it.

 

[little_critter]

It's easier for some people to call in a professional (saddle fitter/vet/farrier/physio etc) and hand over a problem than it is to put hours and hours of work and self examination in to improve their riding.
I think that's the thing, it really does take effort to learn how to ride, and it's something that we all have to continue to put effort into, every time we sit on a horse. Progress can be slow and painful Once you acknowledge that it's kind of easier to come to terms with!

I think we owe it to horses to make sure they are fit, well, comfortable and able to perform. After that, common things are common - I think most behavioural issues are training/handling related. Some stem from the horse's character but I'd say most are inadvertently created by owners.
My dressage trainer often remarks of napping horses that "it can't only have kissing spines by the gate"

I've spent thousands trying to get to the bottom of my girl's planting issue (with vets and physios). At the same time I was super critical of my own riding to ensure there was nothing I was doing to cause the behaviour.
Unfortunately it seems I was following a style of riding that was not benefitting my horse, so while I was doing my best to improve...I was actually heading down the wrong path.
I have recently switched instructor, the riding style taught is different (not saying better / worse...just a different aim) and the improvement in my horse was almost instant.
It can be very difficult to work out what the cause is and sometimes even trying to do the right thing is still the wrong thing!

 

[milliepops]

I have recently switched instructor, the riding style taught is different (not saying better / worse...just a different aim) and the improvement in my horse was almost instant.
It can be very difficult to work out what the cause is and sometimes even trying to do the right thing is still the wrong thing!

Glad you're getting some good results after all that heartache
Sometimes it does all come down to experience, doesn't it? A very experienced horse(wo)man will have a library of gazillions of styles or techniques built up over the years. I think you need to be quite humble as a rider to remain open to new ideas and build up your own library... every day is a school day with horses.

It's funny, I ended up watching a talk with Monty Roberts at YHL this year, not intentionally, we just strolled by and stopped a while to listen. He said that he had 'his way' and that was the only way UNTIL he saw someone else do something differently that worked better, and then he adopted that to be 'his way'. So his way was always evolving. Paraphrased but that was the gist of it. I think there are nuggets of wisdom to be picked up all over the place, won't always apply to the horse you are riding at the moment but always handy to stuff into the memory bank!

 

[Orangehorse]

I can hardly believe that anyone needs to watch a DVD to learn how to feel which leg is doing what! I was taught that at a run-of-the mill RS in the late 60s/early 70s. And yes the teaching was good, excellent even, the ponies well-schooled and of varying types but the facilities were nothing to write home about. Admittedly, the local PC, where the RIs also taught, produced highly successful international competitors but I thought at the time that every RS was teaching similarly - and in fact, I still do, knowing that all the owners/instructors were involved with the local Hunt/PC.

That was really good teaching then, as I wasn't even aware of trot diagonals until I was an adult rider and trying to do a dressage test, let alone asking for canter when the legs are in the right place. It was always give the canter aid and hope for the best! Later on I found it easier to teach walk to canter as it gave me more time to sort out the correct timing of the aids!

My early riding was with the Pony Club, hunting and gymkhana and only the people in teams were ever given special instruction.

 

[oldie48]

I couldn't agree more with this. I asked one of the people I train with how he had developed his "feel" because it's something I struggle with. Was it natural or had it come from training? He's been around horses for 50 years or so, when young worked on a breaking and dealing yard, evented and has trained horses up to GP. None of his horses have been world beaters but they are all very correctly trained and I know the competing is very secondary to the training. He said he'd watched lots of excellent riders over the years and he'd go home and try their methods with his own horses, when it worked he'd refine it and it became another tool in his toolbox.
The average pleasure/leisure rider doesn't have the opportunity to do this as they are not working with horses in the same way so they have to rely on having trainers who can help them build their own toolbox. The big problem is it's only when you have more experience that you can start to sift the good trainer from the bad or when a problem doesn't resolve and you are forced to try elsewhere out of desperation. Inexperienced riders don't know what they don't know and tbh I think you need quite a lot of competence and understanding to read the books of the masters and start to put their principles into practice.

Sometimes it does all come down to experience, doesn't it? A very experienced horse(wo)man will have a library of gazillions of styles or techniques built up over the years. I think you need to be quite humble as a rider to remain open to new ideas and build up your own library... every day is a school day with horses.

It's funny, I ended up watching a talk with Monty Roberts at YHL this year, not intentionally, we just strolled by and stopped a while to listen. He said that he had 'his way' and that was the only way UNTIL he saw someone else do something differently that worked better, and then he adopted that to be 'his way'. So his way was always evolving. Paraphrased but that was the gist of it. I think there are nuggets of wisdom to be picked up all over the place, won't always apply to the horse you are riding at the moment but always handy to stuff into the memory bank!

 

[Cortez]

I couldn't agree more with this. I asked one of the people I train with how he had developed his "feel" because it's something I struggle with. Was it natural or had it come from training? He's been around horses for 50 years or so, when young worked on a breaking and dealing yard, evented and has trained horses up to GP. None of his horses have been world beaters but they are all very correctly trained and I know the competing is very secondary to the training. He said he'd watched lots of excellent riders over the years and he'd go home and try their methods with his own horses, when it worked he'd refine it and it became another tool in his toolbox.
The average pleasure/leisure rider doesn't have the opportunity to do this as they are not working with horses in the same way so they have to rely on having trainers who can help them build their own toolbox. The big problem is it's only when you have more experience that you can start to sift the good trainer from the bad or when a problem doesn't resolve and you are forced to try elsewhere out of desperation. Inexperienced riders don't know what they don't know and tbh I think you need quite a lot of competence and understanding to read the books of the masters and start to put their principles into practice.

This is a very good observation>>>

BUT...where are all the experienced people to help all the not-so-experienced ones? They used to be called instructors, but that title seems to have been misapropriated by people with "qualifications": they can still be found in abundance in some places (not generally the British Isles).

 

[oldie48]

But they don't just need to be really experienced, they need good communication skills so they can translate what they do with feel into what initially will be quite a mechanical movement for most novices, have the energy and enthusiasm to help riders deal with the setbacks that we all experience, know instinctively when to push for more and when to be more cautious, be totally impervious to the cold, rain and wind and for many riders be "cheap". It's hardly surprising there are so few really good people around and that many struggle to make a decent living, it's a tough job! Just like there are many people who are unwilling to pay for the work that goes into an established horse, there are those who are unwilling to pay for decent training.

This is a very good observation>>>

BUT...where are all the experienced people to help all the not-so-experienced ones? They used to be called instructors, but that title seems to have been misapropriated by people with "qualifications": they can still be found in abundance in some places (not generally the British Isles).

 

[PaddyMonty]

He said he'd watched lots of excellent riders over the years and he'd go home and try their methods with his own horses, when it worked he'd refine it and it became another tool in his toolbox.
The average pleasure/leisure rider doesn't have the opportunity to do this

They have more opportunity than you might think.
I spend as much (if not more) time watching people ride as I do actually riding. At competitions, at yard, on the net. It doesn't have to be someone riding well. Just looking at the interaction between horse and rider, picking up on what each is doing, what is the cause and effect etc and then thinking 'what could they try'
Engaging the brain, thinking about action and reaction is a very powerful tool.

 

[teapot]

But they don't just need to be really experienced, they need good communication skills so they can translate what they do with feel into what initially will be quite a mechanical movement for most novices, have the energy and enthusiasm to help riders deal with the setbacks that we all experience, know instinctively when to push for more and when to be more cautious, be totally impervious to the cold, rain and wind and for many riders be "cheap". It's hardly surprising there are so few really good people around and that many struggle to make a decent living, it's a tough job! Just like there are many people who are unwilling to pay for the work that goes into an established horse, there are those who are unwilling to pay for decent training.

I think communication is key for a good coach/trainer/instructor. They can be one of the best in the world but if they can't communicate their lessons will never ever be as good imho. My new one is experienced, BHS by qualifications (but happy to rip the system apart), teaches well, and communicates in a way that suits how I think and ride. It probably helps that we both have the same sense of humour - not sure doing Lord Flashheart impressions down the long side would work for every client she has :wink3: She's also got the patience but right level of sympathy/kick up the backside for when things go wrong, like they did the other week.

Are my lessons cheap? By riding school standards, no, but she's worth every single penny.

 

[oldie48]

What I do find very useful is watching lessons because to some extent there's a running commentary of what is going on tbh I can watch a test for eg and could tell you if the horse is going well etc and probably wouldn't be that far off the mark with scoring but I'd struggle to tell you what the rider is doing wrong or right unless it was very obvious, I think it's the more subtle aids that the less experienced rider struggles with, but I take your point. I have my horse ridden by a "good" rider on a regular basis and because we talk about what she's doing and why, I am getting better at reading what's going on but it is a skill that I am having to develop. What I think I'd like to do more is to video my training, I find that a very powerful tool.

They have more opportunity than you might think.
I spend as much (if not more) time watching people ride as I do actually riding. At competitions, at yard, on the net. It doesn't have to be someone riding well. Just looking at the interaction between horse and rider, picking up on what each is doing, what is the cause and effect etc and then thinking 'what could they try'
Engaging the brain, thinking about action and reaction is a very powerful tool.

 

[blitznbobs]

In my experience sorting napping is about predicting when it will happen and riding positively prior to the nap - however not using a whip because the horse might tear is letting the horse train you. Think about it . Smack with the whip, rear , then don't use whip again you've told the horse that is what you want ... Or trained the horse that if it tears you'll back off it... I tend to smack horses on the head when they rear (with my hand) and then ride forward again... But if a horse is moving forward it can't rear.

 

[milliepops]

They have more opportunity than you might think.
I spend as much (if not more) time watching people ride as I do actually riding. At competitions, at yard, on the net. It doesn't have to be someone riding well. Just looking at the interaction between horse and rider, picking up on what each is doing, what is the cause and effect etc and then thinking 'what could they try'
Engaging the brain, thinking about action and reaction is a very powerful tool.

^^yep, I am the same. Before I had the means to get my horse out and about to lessons I watched EVERYTHING I could point my eyes at. And evesdropped all over the place. Lots of people are generous with their knowledge too, and enjoy talking about stuff with an interested person.
However, I do find that the more I know, the more I can see... but that's the same with everything I think, and you have to start somewhere. To an extent, it's learning the skill of self-study, but then also self analysis and self awareness, otherwise you can't apply what you are learning without a bit of assistance.

What I think I'd like to do more is to video my training, I find that a very powerful tool.

... speaking of which, when are you back in my neck of the woods? I will pop along and be cameraman if I can PM me

 

[oldie48]

Yes, I will, thanks!

... speaking of which, when are you back in my neck of the woods? I will pop along and be cameraman if I can PM me

 

[Alexa123]

It's not ONLY about trainers though, is it. , I had my first glimpse of 'the light' when I finally got the chance to ride a well-trained horse. It was both an epiphany and a shock when I realised just how long I had been doing it all wrong. Since then, I have come to realise that some horses really do help you to ride 'right' while others just bring out your very worst. There's that old saying, 'Good horses make good riders'.

 

[oldie48]

But it is about trainers, although some horses give you the right feel more easily than others, a really good trainer will help you get so much more out of, even, a very ordinary horse. Sadly most pleasure/leisure riders never have the experience of riding a horse that is really "through" When you do, it becomes very addictive (or it is at least for me). When a horse is through and light and on the aids, riding seems so much easier but it's the getting there! That's why we need the "toolbox".

It's not ONLY about trainers though, is it. , I had my first glimpse of 'the light' when I finally got the chance to ride a well-trained horse. It was both an epiphany and a shock when I realised just how long I had been doing it all wrong. Since then, I have come to realise that some horses really do help you to ride 'right' while others just bring out your very worst. There's that old saying, 'Good horses make good riders'.

 

[FfionWinnie]

Hello can you tell me how you retrain napping? I have one that can be quite nappy but you can't use a whip because he will rear .

Would also be interested in your thoughts on napping too as baby horse is nappy minded .

I probably can't to be honest. I've tried to do it on here before and it didn't work lol. I wouldn't encourage anyone to try what I am trying to explain as I don't think it's possible for me to explain it entirely - it's more of a doing than a saying thing.

Essentially I have the battles on the ground on the long reins first. That means if they are inclined to stand up you haven't got to sit on them while they are doing it. I would deliberately encourage them to nap by creating something they didn't want to pass or by turning them back for home several times in the same place if necessary to get the behaviour on the long lines so I could fix it. The trouble is if you aren't quick enough to react on the long lines then you aren't going to fix it you're going to make it worse.

Anyway once I've had some epic battles and won so that they go forwards obediently into any situation, I'll get on. Usually have to have the same battles again but because I've already won them from the ground (which is safer and gives you superiority over them because you can force them on) they give in a lot quicker.

One thing you must always do is never let them turn round or win by going their way, so say they spin round half a turn anti-clockwise- they absolutely must go back the way they came. Too many people let the horse win that small battle which to the horse is massive. I also don't agree with backing them up they have to go forwards the way I want them to go whatever it takes. I've got some handy ditches at home and often have had a horse back it's self into one. That quickly cures them of thinking that is an option. It's also about pressure and release which they need taught on the ground too before you start so when you have your leg on saying go forwards it doesn't come off until they do.

I don't use a whip really only sometimes use a soft rope. It doesn't matter what it looks like the key initially is forward movement. Then you can refine it.

If it doesn't work then really it's down to my reaction not being quick enough. You have to be ready before they do it really and by it I mean the slightest move towards any kind of nap even like a slight drift that way.

I can't explain it that well in the written word and there's a lot more to it but it's actually quite simple once you get into the thought process.

 

[tallyho!]

Somewhat off topic here, but it's really really hard to find good instructors. I've paid £70ph to be basically told to saw on my horses mouth to get her head down (er, no, go away), I've travelled for two hours to someone different and been told the same! I've gone to local clinics organised with semi-big-names and they've all come back to the same thing - get the head down. There, ta da! An outline! And let's just ignore the fact you can't ask the horse do any sort of collection or extension because its arse is somewhere in the next county...

So, how do you find good instruction? How do you know it's good instruction before paying for or travelling to a lesson?

Quite! How do you even know what is good instruction? What are your key measures?

Is it that they have competed at a certain level and won? Is it the shape their horses are making and how high they can throw their legs in the air? Is it how many sponsors they have? I think these are what young riders aspire to.

Do people still look at who they were trained by and what philosophy they follow? What about the how the horses are themselves? Do theses things matter?

I would look at the horses themselves and see who the trainers were trained by. Everyone follows a certain philosophy and even if they don't know it could be traced back if you know the history.

Some good books to help you if you are looking for some depth would be to start with Sylvia Lochs books... from there you can go off on many tangents, in fact go off on them all.... you will enjoy the journey I'm sure.

 

[ycbm]

One thing you must always do is never let them turn round or win by going their way, so say they spin round half a turn anti-clockwise- they absolutely must go back the way they came.

I think I'm understanding you FW? You make them turn back the half turn clockwise?

I can see the point, but I've had equal success curing nappers by continuing the spin twice or three times in the direction the horse was going, until it's facing in the direction you want to go again.

I had an argument with a very expensive trainer who was telling me to bring my horse right because he was napping left. He wasn't napping 'left' in his head, he was napping 'to the gate'. I knew if I attempted to drive him right, he would buck or rear. But if I turned him left three times and pushed him on, he ended up going where I wanted and he didn't, away from the gate.

My current horse used to spin left on the road, and if I attempted to turn him back right he would get his legs I such a muddle he might have fallen over. I cured him by continuing the spin, too.

More than one way to skin a cat, I guess.