Have we got it wrong?

[Alexa123]

I have been a horse owner and H&H reader for some time and like most, it has not always been plain sailing. I'd be very interested to see what others think of this horse trainer's opinion (see link below) regarding the perennial behaviour/pain debate. My understanding was that the majority of behaviour-related problems with our horses were pain related, but now I'm wondering if my whole approach has been wrong all along? Take a look:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUlMWGLsbCw

 

[Cortez]

Absolutely! Perhaps it is more comfortable for riders to believe that the cause of their problems is external rather than simply due to incompetant riding?

(Which in my experience is the cause in 99% of cases....)

 

[BBP]

Tricky one. I blamed my incompetent riding skills for my horses behaviour. Then found out he had ulcers, RER, sacroiliac pain, allergies, changed the saddle and bridle and now I have Mr (Almost) Perfect! I am still an imperfect rider. I think you need to look at the whole picture, but certainly don't ignore the effect your riding/handling capabilities have on your horse.

That said, it may be that the sacroiliac issue was due to me riding him incorrectly and allowing that region to become weak and surceptible to injury. It's all about finding the root cause.

 

[rifruffian]

The nature of the character and attitude of the horse handler/rider is most vital aspect of equine training.
That should include a willingness to remember and recognise that horse might have pain.

 

[eggs]

Pain should never be ruled out as a reason but I tend to agree with Michael Peace and Cortez that it is rarely the real underlying issue. Poor riding and handling of the horse is usually the root cause.

 

[milliepops]

Absolutely! Perhaps it is more comfortable for riders to believe that the cause of their problems is external rather than simply due to incompetant riding?

(Which in my experience is the cause in 99% of cases....)

It's easier for some people to call in a professional (saddle fitter/vet/farrier/physio etc) and hand over a problem than it is to put hours and hours of work and self examination in to improve their riding.
I think that's the thing, it really does take effort to learn how to ride, and it's something that we all have to continue to put effort into, every time we sit on a horse. Progress can be slow and painful Once you acknowledge that it's kind of easier to come to terms with!

I think we owe it to horses to make sure they are fit, well, comfortable and able to perform. After that, common things are common - I think most behavioural issues are training/handling related. Some stem from the horse's character but I'd say most are inadvertently created by owners.
My dressage trainer often remarks of napping horses that "it can't only have kissing spines by the gate"

 

[Antw23uk]

I cant stop looking at that lower leg waving about! What was the question, lol!

 

[Alexa123]

"it can't only have kissing spines by the gate"

Haha! Now THAT probably sums it up the best.

I think it's time to hang up my boots!

 

[Rowreach]

The bigger picture must be looked at as all sorts of things contribute to all types of behaviour - and finding the root cause can be tricky. But it was not all that long ago on this forum that the idea of checking teeth/back/saddle fit was considered to be quite radical, and most behavioural "problems" in horses were put down to them being "naughty" ....

 

[ozpoz]

"it can't only have kissing spines by the gate"

Haha! Now THAT probably sums it up the best.

I think it's time to hang up my boots!

But...
We know that tension will increase the intensity and tolerance of pain, so can nappy behaviour shouldn't be discounted as possible indicator.
I think that better investigatory methods, scanning, have made people hugely more aware. I could ride my old boy strongly enough and he would comply perfectly but knowing his genuine pain issues prefer to let him enjoy his retirement.
How else are they supposed to let you know?

 

[milliepops]

But it was not all that long ago on this forum that the idea of checking teeth/back/saddle fit was considered to be quite radical, and most behavioural "problems" in horses were put down to them being "naughty" ....

And that is also quite incorrect IMO, horses aren't generally 'naughty' even when they display behaviour that is contrary to what we want from them... they are opportunists, naturally will seek what they deem as the easy way out when presented with an option, and quite understandably they don't share our dreams of riding glory It would pay for more people to recognise that

Always worth giving the horse the benefit of the doubt re pain or discomfort... but frequently the cause will lie elsewhere.

 

[milliepops]

But...
We know that tension will increase the intensity and tolerance of pain, so can nappy behaviour shouldn't be discounted as possible indicator.

No, but you'd expect it to nap all the way round an arena, not just by the door. That was the point he was making. If turning right by the door triggered a painful reaction, then turning right by the mirror, or the mounting block, or generally ANYWHERE would do the same

 

[Annagain]

No, but you'd expect it to nap all the way round an arena, not just by the door. That was the point he was making. If turning right by the door triggered a painful reaction, then turning right by the mirror, or the mounting block, or generally ANYWHERE would do the same

But if he's hurting the whole time and he knows that going through that gate is going to stop it, you can understand why he wants to go through it. The rest of the circuit of the school is just a means of getting back to the gate.

 

[milliepops]

But if he's hurting the whole time and he knows that going through that gate is going to stop it, you can understand why he wants to go through it. The rest of the circuit of the school is just a means of getting back to the gate.

Hmmm. I would certainly expect a horse who had napping triggered by pain to nap all over the shop in the school, and elsewhere - hacking etc.

On the flip side, how often do you see little kids ponies taking advantage of their tiny jockeys, napping to the gate or to the grass etc. I don't think all of them have kissing spines or ulcers I do think we risk overlooking the obvious *sometimes*. I have already said twice on this thread that the horse should have the benefit of the doubt but pain is not always the reason for unwanted behaviour.

 

[SEL]

I'm considering sending mine off to bootcamp - freely admit that sorting out her hacking anxiety and bucking might be beyond my experience level - BUT in getting to that decision I have covered the following;

Saddle fit - tree on original saddle was twisted. Saddle changed but bucking still there.
Physio - weakness down one side. Does not explain bucking.
PSSM - might explain bucking but no other symptoms kicking in
Hock x-rats - arthritis at 6. Another possible explanation for the bucking if the joint is starting to ache or causing problems elsewhere. She's going on bute & I'll see if the behaviour is still there.

I know my limitations, but I also think we owe it to our horses to check them physically first. We have a young lad on our yard who spent 6 months with a big name trainer & he's come back with the view that the horse should behave 'no matter what'. Personally I think that leads to shut down horses who stop telling us they hurt because no one is listening.

 

[Alexa123]

Interesting responses and highlight just how contentious the topic is. I suppose the thing that so many of today's horse owners lack is TIME and MONEY - and horses require a lot of both. I think many problems arise when horse and rider are RUSHED. Rushed because they have to be at their desk by 9, they have to pick the children up at 3, it's dark by 4, they have to drive 20 miles to the only livery yard around with more than a pocket handkerchief for turnout. The list goes on. Maybe, as mentioned in the post on 'the next big thing for equestrianism' we are moving back to a time when horses are the privilege of the wealthy few.

 

[Annagain]

Hmmm. I would certainly expect a horse who had napping triggered by pain to nap all over the shop in the school, and elsewhere - hacking etc.

On the flip side, how often do you see little kids ponies taking advantage of their tiny jockeys, napping to the gate or to the grass etc. I don't think all of them have kissing spines or ulcers I do think we risk overlooking the obvious *sometimes*. I have already said twice on this thread that the horse should have the benefit of the doubt but pain is not always the reason for unwanted behaviour.

Totally agree, just don't think that naughtiness / opportunism (whatever you want to call it) is the only explanation for napping at the gate. When I first had my boy we did a lot of group riding club lessons. The flat work was always either open order or we'd have a bit of fun doing drill riding so he was never off on his own, with all the others in one spot. With the jumping, the other horses would all stand in the middle while we went round one at a time. He would always nap to other horses which we put down to behaviour. With hindsight we know now that jumping was hurting him. If he was standing in the middle with them, he was jumping and it wasn't hurting. The strange thing was he only ever napped from 2 positions. I realise now they were the corners which allowed a diagonal line back to the others so the turn less severe. The rest of the circuit was getting him to the least painful position to nap from so he was shutting down and just getting through that bit. He also only napped on the right rein. He could obviously just about deal with going left but not right. We put the napping when jumping down to exactly that as he was never away on his own to have others to nap to on the flat, but in reality, the flat wasn't causing him so much pain so he wasn't looking for an out.

Ruling out pain, then dealing with the issue (including my riding if needs be) is the way I'd go every time.

 

[ycbm]

My dressage trainer often remarks of napping horses that "it can't only have kissing spines by the gate

How else can a stoic and good natured horse which has kissing spines try to gently tell its owner that it really needs to stop being ridden?

These horses sometimes only play up in competition, too, or in one movement, or particular weather conditions. It's a case of straws that break the camel's back.

It took me far too long to realise that my kissing spines horse, though working fine at home, threw a strop at the letters in a dressage arena because that's where the transitions happened, and transitions hurt.

I'm firmly on the side of ruling out pain first, then sorting out the behaviour.

I would rather see any number of incompetent riders look for pain in their horses than bear the thought of how many good natured, stoic horses out there are working in pain.

 

[milliepops]

He also only napped on the right rein.

This, for me, would be the sign that the horse likely had a physical problem rather than a training issue....

Ruling out pain, then dealing with the issue (including my riding if needs be) is the way I'd go every time.

...if you read my posts we're saying the same things Just our recent experiences are the opposites to each other so the emphasis is different. I've got a napper, but despite best efforts I absolutely can't find anything wrong with her! She just needs retraining! :lol:

 

[madlady]

Interesting responses and highlight just how contentious the topic is. I suppose the thing that so many of today's horse owners lack is TIME and MONEY - and horses require a lot of both. I think many problems arise when horse and rider are RUSHED. Rushed because they have to be at their desk by 9, they have to pick the children up at 3, it's dark by 4, they have to drive 20 miles to the only livery yard around with more than a pocket handkerchief for turnout. The list goes on. Maybe, as mentioned in the post on 'the next big thing for equestrianism' we are moving back to a time when horses are the privilege of the wealthy few.

I'd also say that a major factor is that a lot of owners lack experience and knowledge. If the owner doesn't know the most basic of things then how can they be expected to spot the more complex things.

I have said for many years that people should have to have a basic horse management qualification before they own a horse.

 

[milliepops]

How else can a stoic and good natured horse which has kissing spines try to gently tell its owner that it really needs to stop being ridden?

These horses very sometimes only play up in competition, too, or in one movement, or particular weather conditions. It's a case of straws that break the camel's back.

It took me far too long to realise that my kissing spines horse, though working fine at home, threw a strop at the letters in a dressage arena because that's where the transitions happened, and transitions hurt.

I'm firmly on the side of ruling out pain first, then sorting out the behaviour.

Ok. To add additional details to something that was supposed to be quite light hearted. The horse I was riding napped on a right turn as we turned away from the arena door. She also had to do the same right turn at the next corner, and the next, and the next. Only the one by the door produced a nap.
If it was the mechanics of the right turn that produced the pain, then surely each of those turns should have resulted in a nap. By which I mean, a resistance, the horse refusing to go in the direction or manner intended. Rather, she sweetly went along with the exercise until facing the door again....
Tell me, should I have investigated my horse for kissing spines in case she was only remembering to tell me about it by the door?

(Eta. It occurs to me that sometimes we use the horse's natural tendency to nap towards things to our benefit... how often do you hear people starting to teach leg yield saying to LY towards the fence, because the arena fence is like a magnet that the horse falls towards? or start a young horse jumping by putting the fence going 'towards home'. just an aside, lol)

It sounds like yours is an entirely different case and more like annagain's, with a clear pattern.

As riders, many of us question ourselves the minute the horses says 'nah' or 'i don't fancy that'. While it's good to double check that you haven't been unfair to the horse, that hesitation can stop us from being effective, and you can compound a problem that started out as a simple, natural questioning on the horse's part and turn it into a learned behaviour. My horse has been taught to nap by her previous owners who found themselves overhorsed and lacking the knowledge or confidence to be a leader when she needed it.



For the record, for perhaps the 4th time, I absolutely agree with seeking professional and/or veterinary advice if there is the mere whiff of something physical that needs attention.

 

[ozpoz]

It isn't just the physical movement which can cause increased stress/resisistance leading to muscle tightening, and in turn, increased pain.

The horse's thought processes can also lead to greater stress, unwilling to leave exits, etc. which could cause a pain reaction through tightening across a problem area. Back, sacroiliac and neck being harder to investigate compared to limbs.

With 50% of the UK's sport horses lame , as a recent study showed, surely it's time for us rider's to do our utmost to recognise and avoid discounting signs of possible pain in our horses.

 

[ycbm]

Milliepops, my point is that you can't tell. I had very experienced riders, including a listed dressage judge at a competition and an Inter II level rider/trainer on this forum tell me that my kissing spines horse was misbehaving because I couldn't ride him. 'He needs a man on him' and 'You haven't got the balls to ride him' we're the expressions used.

As above, two recent studies have shown that even experienced trainers can't spot when a horse is lame. New diseases like PSSM and ESPA are being found to account for what were previously 'lazy' or 'temperamental' horses.

And therefore I would rather see a numpty rider investigate a horse for pain than see experienced riders use their skill to make a horse do what they want it to do without questioning them.

And let's not forget, too, that a horse may genuinely be in pain with an unbalanced novicey rider which it is not in with a stable, pro level person on board. That's not the rider's 'fault', it's just a fact of life.

I don't think all horses are saints, far from it. But I do think there are a lot of horses working in pain with riders, of ALL levels, blissfully unaware of it.

 

[smja]

TBH, it's experience that helps us gauge if it's pain or rider/handler.

It's often a bit of both - my brave eventer suddenly starting stopping occasionally at fences. I thought it was me being scared and rubbish...and it kind of was, in that when I got it right he tried his best to jump. When I didn't get it right, the SI pain meant he couldn't compensate for me messing it up.
I'm still kicking myself for not getting him checked out sooner.

 

[milliepops]

TBH, it's experience that helps us gauge if it's pain or rider/handler.

agreed. And paying attention to patterns and the horse's history.
We're all talking about our own examples here and that taints the responses but we're all saying the same I think?
FWIW I've had the experience of being told something was a training issue, when I knew it wasn't, and been glad I trusted my gut on that. I don't for a second advocate just pushing every horse through a problem unquestioningly. A close friend had similar with a young horse that failed to progress - had it pts as very low grade wobbler that no one but her had noticed the clinical signs. A perceptive knowledgeable owner will be the best placed to pick up on physical issues in most cases.

So yes, I'd rather a "numpty" as ycbm puts it, assumes there's a physical problem... but as per cortez's intial response to the post, the best response is to do that but also improve the "numpty's" skills and knowledge at the same time? Otherwise it's probably going to be hard to effectively rehab a problem etc. It's not a binary choice between one and the other?

 

[milliepops]

And let's not forget, too, that a horse may genuinely be in pain with an unbalanced novicey rider which it is not in with a stable, pro level person on board. That's not the rider's 'fault', it's just a fact of life.

I don't think all horses are saints, far from it. But I do think there are a lot of horses working in pain with riders, of ALL levels, blissfully unaware of it.

Actually I have to disagree, if a rider is so novice that they cause the horse pain through their lack of balance etc, that *is* their fault. They shouldn't be mounted on a live animal, at least not in a way that they can have any influence!

And on your last point, well yes... that weighs heavily on all of us. You only have to think of the number of niggles that people go through their lives with on a day to day basis... I don't think it's too anthropomorphic to think the same probably applies to horses in the general population too. If you consider the ethics of it, actually, I don't think there is any case to be made for using horses in sport at all. But like most things in life, we draw our own lines in the sand in terms of what we think is acceptable or not. Ho hum.

 

[Alexa123]

So, going back to my original post then, are we saying that the horse trainer in the video (Michael Peace) is wrong to make this assumption?

quote: “….to me training is everything and in my experience a horse’s behaviour is RARELY caused by physical issues AT ALL”

 

[blitznbobs]

In my experience most 'inexplicable' (not all) problems are caused by riders including some muscle issues. Horses are not stupid and will train their riders to do things a certain way, it's a very (overly) confident rider who says that the problems they are experiencing with their horses behaviour is nothing to do with their riding.

 

[blitznbobs]

Actually I have to disagree, if a rider is so novice that they cause the horse pain through their lack of balance etc, that *is* their fault. They shouldn't be mounted on a live animal, at least not in a way that they can have any influence!

And on your last point, well yes... that weighs heavily on all of us. You only have to think of the number of niggles that people go through their lives with on a day to day basis... I don't think it's too anthropomorphic to think the same probably applies to horses in the general population too. If you consider the ethics of it, actually, I don't think there is any case to be made for using horses in sport at all. But like most things in life, we draw our own lines in the sand in terms of what we think is acceptable or not. Ho hum.

But that is kind of like saying people with niggles shouldn't have to go to work...

 

[Orangehorse]

There is a new book out by Sue Palmer (Brown) physiotherapist and Intelligent Horsemanship trainer, dressage rider which is called "Brain, Pain or Training" which covers all these questions!