Have we got it wrong?

Alexa123 said:
quote: “….to me training is everything and in my experience a horse’s behaviour is RARELY caused by physical issues AT ALL”
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Yes, I'd agree with this to some extent, I definitely think physical issues are less commonly the cause for so called behavioural issues than they are made out to be (but I 100% think that they should be considered when an issue arises!). It takes a lot of self-awareness and self-criticism for someone to accept that it's their riding or their handling or their training causing the problem. Much easier on the ego to look for an external cause. Riding and training horses is not easy, it takes a massive skill set to ride and train effectively and ethically. I think it is often underestimated just what a task it is we take on when we try to get a half a tonne flight animal with a very different brain to that of a human to do the crazy things we ask it to do :)

I also think we often forget that we are training our horse with every single interaction we have with them, not just when we ride, horses are so observant and aware, they have to be, their lives depend on it, but humans really aren't to the same extent :) Life is black and white for them, a simple example, you can't let them nuzzle your pockets one day then expect them not to do it the next, but you see this type of thing so often. I think it is quite common to actually inadvertently train those behaviours we don't want with inconsistent handling/riding.
 
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I completely agree that pain CAN be a cause of "naughty" behaviour, but it usually isn't IME. I used to make a living sorting out problem horses, and the strangest thing was that 60% of the time the "problem" never occured, or disappeared almost immediately when they came in for training. What I learned, however, was that the only way to permanently erase the problem was to train the riders, otherwise the horse would be back with the same issue.

What a professional rider/trainer does (a good one that is) is learn to know the difference between a physical issue and an attitudinal or training one.

I have had the good fortune to work in countries with wonderful trainers and with long traditions of horse training that are very different to the way horses are trained over here. It is strange that some of the problems that come up on here with depressing regularity are almost never seen in other places...
 
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Alexa123 said:
So, going back to my original post then, are we saying that the horse trainer in the video (Michael Peace) is wrong to make this assumption?

quote: “….to me training is everything and in my experience a horse’s behaviour is RARELY caused by physical issues AT ALL”
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I'd take a bett that most of the horses with ridden problems that are unloaded in Michael's yard with someone paying him to sort them out have already been checked for pain and found clear. He isn't actually in the best place to judge, possibly?
 
Having taught people to ride for many years I tend to think a good lot of "underlying" physical issues are caused by poor riding. Watching a horse under someone with a correct seat and hands ride VS someone who just doesn't care to ride right (or learn how) the difference is staggering. I couldn't list all the cases of horses I've been given that claimed to have serious health issues and after 6 months ended up back riding regularly. A combination of lazy vets and silly owners.
One cob in particular I had was diagnosed with kissing spine, his owner gave him to me because the only other option was to shoot him apparently. My own vet came to look at him and baffled announced he couldn't find any kissing spine but the horse had serious bruising around his ribs (behind the girth) particularly on his right side. Anyway it cleared up and he became a school horse as he showed no other problems and actually turned out to be a wonderful confidence giver. When his old owner popped over to visit I offered her a ride and soon realized what the real issue had been when she started kicking the living sugar out of him while yanking him back. Couldn't saddle him for a few days after that as he tried to bite us.
Ireland seems to be rather fond of fast breaking horses which causes a lot of mental reactions rather than physical pain issues.

Of course some horses are just clever and realise if they are "sore" they get a few days off. A mare I had used to go lame when it rained, until you turned around to go home, at which point she would trot away happily.
 
ycbm said:
I'd take a bett that most of the horses with ridden problems that are unloaded in Michael's yard with someone paying him to sort them out have already been checked for pain and found clear. He isn't actually in the best place to judge, possibly?
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This exactly.

We can all always be better, more reflective riders and trainers of our horses, and the day we stop questioning 'am I causing/contributing to this problem' AND 'might the horse be uncomfortable' is the day we should hang up our boots.
 
ycbm said:
I'd take a bett that most of the horses with ridden problems that are unloaded in Michael's yard with someone paying him to sort them out have already been checked for pain and found clear. He isn't actually in the best place to judge, possibly?
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well the key is in the phrase 'in my experience'.
Everyone has their own set of experiences and this will have a big impact on the kinds of things they perceive as problems, and the kind of problems that arrive at their door to be untangled, and therefore the kind of causes/effects they discover.

Simplistic example from my own yard, as I said, common things are common: a novice rider can't get their horse to canter on the left lead, no matter how hard they try, because of deficiencies in their own riding. Without knowing the details of the rider's capabilities, well meaning people could suggest there is something wrong with the horse & it needs a vet/physio referral etc etc etc. This could send the rider off into an endless quest to find out what the problem is.
An experienced rider would not find this an issue, being more able to balance the horse, apply the correct aid, deal with any basic straightness issues etc . The experienced rider wouldn't consider this a physical issue for the horse, this is a training issue for the rider.

Thing is on this thread, lots of people have been round the block with horses long enough to have come across the more knotty problems that may well have a physical cause, but those are rarer than the oh-so-common basic problems that frequent livery yards up and down the country and cause more novice riders to tear their hair out. If you help a lot of more novice riders out, you can see that many behavioural or ridden issues are caused by a lack of experience. If you don't get involved with those kinds of people, one may not realise just how many people struggle with things that a more experienced rider would nip in the bud and consider inconsequential.
 
ycbm said:
How else can a stoic and good natured horse which has kissing spines try to gently tell its owner that it really needs to stop being ridden?

These horses sometimes only play up in competition, too, or in one movement, or particular weather conditions. It's a case of straws that break the camel's back.

It took me far too long to realise that my kissing spines horse, though working fine at home, threw a strop at the letters in a dressage arena because that's where the transitions happened, and transitions hurt.

I'm firmly on the side of ruling out pain first, then sorting out the behaviour.

I would rather see any number of incompetent riders look for pain in their horses than bear the thought of how many good natured, stoic horses out there are working in pain.
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This 100%

If we have just ridden our exracer through his sudden Un willingness to go forward which is what a lot of people said to do he would have been in so much pain.
We got the vet out, he saw us ride him and confirmed he was one tenths lame right hind. Lameness work ups showed ks/hock arthritis and si pain.

It's only because we listens to his change in behaviour that we found that out.


If one of mine starts misbehaving I take a step back, look at the situation and ask a few questions.

What did I do?
Did I ask for more than the horse knew how to give?
Did I warm up right?
Was my aids unclear?
Does he look/feel okay?

And take it from thwre
 
Of course some horses are just clever and realise if they are "sore" they get a few days off
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I can't imagine wanting to ride a horse who so obviously did not want to be ridden.
 
I think that often there are horses that are in pain, for reasons which neither vets nor owners realise. I had one whose 'behavioural issues' turned out to be caused by a severe reaction to sugar and cereals. It took several years and many vet visits treating symptoms, such as cough, without putting everything together to recognise the causal link. Eventually the secret was unlocked because of an article in a horse mag, written by the owner of a horse with similar food reactions but which caused lameness.
Other horses are labelled 'naughty' or 'nappy' because they are not mind readers. Their riders ask for something completely different from what they intended and then blame the horse for responding to the aids given, rather than those that the rider should have used.
Perhaps if riders thought more carefully about the horse's POV, pain, rider error, reactions to environmental/management issues many partnerships would be more harmonious/successful.
 
I know someone who knew this trainer, and ended up quite badly injured after he insisted the horse she was riding was being naughty because she couldn't ride well enough. She said it had a back problem, and he insisted she ride it through it. After she was injured the horse was checked, and it did have a problem. Having met him I find him arrogant, and didn't warm to him. He is also very expensive.
 
I think the work that horses are asked to do is more concentrated, lots of riding in circles on non natural surfaces. People ride at shows, are on their backs for hours but perhaps have only ridden very little in the week, or its been on a walker, and then they wonder why its starts to say no, and that hoping the animal is physically well.
There is a theory that all horses are lame, in the fact like people they will always favour one limb, but through exercise and training of horse and rider you develop both sides. The trouble is most riders, even those that have ridden for years have no idea they favour one side, always ride on the same diagonal, and do not work the horses evenly.
So you start with an animal that is not perfect but functionally sound, work it spasmodically and unevenly and when it can not cope and starts napping its the horses fault. So you stick a gadget on it, which usually compresses its frame and prevents it from using its body to compensate, which with regular drilling in the school makes it mentally sour and exacerbate any physical problems it may have had or is developing. By this time you 'need' a saddle fitter, back man, teeth done and spend x amounts on vets.
No, its not all the riders fault, but horses are basically built to go in straight lines and graduated turns, and have a basic natural level of fitness, so to make them function well we build on that gradually, like the old hunter fitting work. They will put up with a lot if they are happy, you only have to go to PC to see ponies that will put up with almost any thing and still do their job. As people if we are happy mentally we will ignore pain.
I have had many animals over many years, most I keep for life and never had one lame apart from the odd kick, most competed did PC hunted etc. Even the horse I got already with diagnosed navicular I managed to keep sound and in work to the point of cub hunting, but as someone else has said this all takes time, which nobody seems to have. Its easier to buy another rug, or gadget and say there is something wrong with the horse.
 
ycbm said:
More akin to saying that horses should be made to earn their living?
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I don't have issue with that idea either... My horses work 5 - 7 hours tops a week, they have fields to be horses in, stables for when it's necessary for them to come in in the winter, food, affection,vets, physios , I don't work them if they are lame or ill etc in return they do a small job... What's wrong with that?
 
Alexa123 said:
I have been a horse owner and H&H reader for some time and like most, it has not always been plain sailing. I'd be very interested to see what others think of this horse trainer's opinion (see link below) regarding the perennial behaviour/pain debate. My understanding was that the majority of behaviour-related problems with our horses were pain related, but now I'm wondering if my whole approach has been wrong all along? Take a look:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUlMWGLsbCw
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Is it really this black and white?

There's nothing wrong with either way of looking at a problem. Better to be able to see it from many angles rather than just one. Surely it's more of a spectrum.
 
blitznbobs said:
I don't have issue with that idea either... My horses work 5 - 7 hours tops a week, they have fields to be horses in, stables for when it's necessary for them to come in in the winter, food, affection,vets, physios , I don't work them if they are lame or ill etc in return they do a small job... What's wrong with that?
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The suggestion was that people go to work to earn a living even if they are in pain. I don't feel that a horse should earn a living even if it's in pain.
 
ycbm said:
The suggestion was that people go to work to earn a living even if they are in pain. I don't feel that a horse should earn a living even if it's in pain.
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My horses earn a living (mine, and theirs), if they cannot do so I either sell or PTS. If they are in pain they cannot work (neither can I, so I have to be sound enough too) so their management is directed towards them being fit, sound and willing participants. I manage my horses VERY differently to most people on here - strangely enough we've hardly seen a vet in the last 15 years, nor saddle fitter, physio, etc., etc. And yet they come out and do their job without complaint consistantly. Why? According to most replies I read on here they should be crippled, miserable, starving, vitamin-depleted lunatics.

Yes, I think the horse "culture" of this part of the world has a lot of things very wrong and is not focussing on the most important, basic skills that seem to have been forgotten.
 
ycbm said:
The suggestion was that people go to work to earn a living even if they are in pain. I don't feel that a horse should earn a living even if it's in pain.
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no, actually, the suggestion was that lots of people live with daily gripes, not clinically distinct enough to be worthy of bothering a doctor or doing anything other than getting on with it. We all get aches and pains. Therefore it's likely that the same is true of horses. Daily aches and pains. We're all living bodies, after all. Yet we ALL ride them. All of us on this thread. Yes, we should do our best to make sure that any pain issues we can detect are dealt with, but I think anyone who sits on a horse even with the best of intentions has to come to terms with the fact that sometimes the horse won't be feeling 100%, just as you aren't.... even if it's completely unnoticeable. And therefore the extreme end of the argument that we appear to be on, is that it's not justifiable to ride a horse. Uncomfortable concept?

incidentally, my horses don't have to earn a living, but I do keep them to ride them, so I do so within what I consider to be acceptable conditions... they are fit and enthusiastic, supple, willing and responsive, and I think that's the best measure I have to decide whether what I do with them is 'fair', recognising that actually the horse has the bum deal in all this and would be more content minding its own business in the wild.
 
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no, actually, the suggestion was that lots of people live with daily gripes, not clinically distinct enough to be worthy of bothering a doctor or doing anything other than getting on with it. We all get aches and pains. Therefore it's likely that the same is true of horses. Daily aches and pains. We're all living bodies, after all. Yet we ALL ride them. All of us on this thread. Yes, we should do our best to make sure that any pain issues we can detect are dealt with, but I think anyone who sits on a horse even with the best of intentions has to come to terms with the fact that sometimes the horse won't be feeling 100%, just as you aren't.... even if it's completely unnoticeable. And therefore the extreme end of the argument that we appear to be on, is that it's not justifiable to ride a horse. Uncomfortable concept?
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Well yes you certainly have taken that argument to extremes :D

I honestly can't see what people are arguing about on this thread. Surely we all agree that a horse in pain should not be required to work except for therapeutic reasons? And that some behavioral issues are due to pain? And that even horse vet experts sometimes diagnose behaviour when is actually pain, so none of us are perfect at seeing when a horse is in pain? And that pain should be ruled out if obvious changes to management/riding has not swiftly resolved the issues?

Can anyone explain to me exactly what the actual argument is here :D ?



PS I an tickled pink at people talking to me as if I'm a fluffy bunny owner :D
 
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ycbm said:
I honestly can't see what prior are arguing about on gyros thread. Surely we all agree that a horse in pain should not be required to work except for therapeutic reasons? And that some behavioral issues are die to pain? And that even horse vet experts sometimes diagnose behaviour when is actually pain, so none of us are perfect at seeing when a horse is in pain? And that pain should be ruled out if obvious changes to management/riding has not swiftly resolved the issues?

Can anyone explain to me exactly what the actual argument is here :D ?
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lol can just about untangle that... have said multiple times in my own responses that we are all on the same page, we are just saying the same stuff in a different way.
I say 'lots of behavioural issues are training problems but one should eliminate pain as a cause as well'

you say ' pain can be a cause of behavioural problems and you should eliminate pain and then address behaviour'.

I think we're all in agreement :wink3:
 
My focus was on the word 'RARELY' in this horse trainer's video, that was all. (“….to me training is everything and in my experience a horse’s behaviour is RARELY caused by physical issues AT ALL”).

The post certainly wasn't to provoke any kind of argument, and IMO it has elicited some very interesting and useful insights from people on here who clearly have lots of experience. I have found it very useful.
 
Alexa123 said:
My focus was on the word 'RARELY' in this horse trainer's video, that was all. (“….to me training is everything and in my experience a horse’s behaviour is RARELY caused by physical issues AT ALL”).

The post certainly wasn't to provoke any kind of argument, and IMO it has elicited some very interesting and useful insights from people on here who clearly have lots of experience. I have found it very useful.
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it's all good :) nice to have meaty topics to chew over (other than the blinking fivers in the clubhouse! :biggrin3:)
 
Alexa123 said:
My focus was on the word 'RARELY' in this horse trainer's video, that was all. (“….to me training is everything and in my experience a horse’s behaviour is RARELY caused by physical issues AT ALL”).

The post certainly wasn't to provoke any kind of argument, and IMO it has elicited some very interesting and useful insights from people on here who clearly have lots of experience. I have found it very useful.
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It's a good thread!

Now I have to admit to not even watching the video - but if it's Michael Peace, and if he said 'rarely', then I'd go back to my argument that he's a very expensive trainer and few people will ever consult him without ruling out pain first.

I also remember a long, long time ago before he was famous and just after he fell out with Monte Roberts, seeing an article where he was photographed doing front leg stretches on a horse and explaining that he always ruled out pain before working with a problem horse.
 
ycbm said:
Now I have to admit to not even watching the video - but if it's Michael Peace, and if he said 'rarely', then I'd go back to my argument that he's a very expensive trainer and few people will ever consult him without ruling out pain first.
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:rolleyes3::rolleyes3::rolleyes3::rolleyes3::rolleyes3:
it was only 57 seconds long :biggrin3:

If you had watched it, you'd have heard him say that he's a last resort when owners have already spent time with the vet etc, and he shows brief clips of him schooling napping/rearing horses. Showing them how to think forward. A training issue!!!
Context is everything in this kind of argument... perhaps this explains why we've all been talking round in circles, lol, endlessly saying 'yes look at pain but lots of it is training!' Pain was dealt with in the first few sentences of the video.
 
I was replying to the question the OP posed :)

Not all of us are lucky enough to have a broadband line that will run video whenever they want it to :(
 
tell me about it, I have been without a phone line into my house all year, but then I personally wouldn't choose to wade in on debates when I couldn't view the original discussion material. I can get 3g if I get in the car and drive up the hill :lol: Never mind, all makes sense now! :) :)
 
eggs said:
Pain should never be ruled out as a reason but I tend to agree with Michael Peace and Cortez that it is rarely the real underlying issue. Poor riding and handling of the horse is usually the root cause.
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This was the first post I was motivated into posting by milliepops. It didn't need me to have watched the video. My posts were directly related to where the thread then went.

I fundamentally disagree with the 'rarely' and would put a 'more' in front of the usually.
 
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ycbm said:
This was the first post I was motivated into posting by milliepops. It didn't need me to have watched the video. My posts were directly related to where the thread then went.

I fundamentally disagree with the 'rarely' and would put a 'more' in front of the usually.
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OK... but your first post on this thread quoted a post of mine, so forgive me if it appeared that you had taken in more of the subject than just eggs's post.
 
milliepops said:
OK... but your first post on this thread quoted a post of mine, so forgive me if it appeared that you had taken in more of the subject than just eggs's post.
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I did indeed quote you. I thought your trainer was completely wrong in suggesting that a horse which only naps at a gateway can't be napping at that gateway through pain, and I said so.

That didn't need me to have seen the video either :)

Any more technicalities you want to argue over, it's cold and damp and I'm not motivated to fetch a horse and ride :D?
 
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