Have you ever had puppies?

[blackcob]

I've had a rescue, and a second-hand rehome, both unregistered 'pedigree', and would do so again in the future. However, the dog I wanted for various reasons most recently really does not exist in rescue. The breed club welfare scheme rehomes no more than 1-2 per year and almost exclusively they are elderly dogs whose elderly owners have sadly passed away. Properly done, responsible breeding is not contributing to the numbers in rescue, and I am very grateful that I was able to buy a health tested dog of known size, appearance, temperament and likely ability this time around.

Going back to the OP, anyone enquiring after my boy is directed back to his breeder, where his father and uncle are both available, or even to his grandfather, who has semen on ice. It's a numerically very small breed so I'd never say never but it'd have to be a really unlikely and narrow set of circumstances for me to consider it.

 

[CorvusCorax]

there are something like 17,000 healthy dogs pts every year in the UK and in America : Each year, approximately 920,000 shelter animals are euthanized (390,000 dogs and 530,000 cats). The number of dogs and cats euthanized in U.S. shelters annually has declined from approximately 2.6 million in 2011. This decline can be partially explained by an increase in the percentage of animals adopted and an increase in the number of stray animals successfully returned to their owners.
https://www.aspca.org/helping-people-pets/shelter-intake-and-surrender/pet-statistics

Absolutely shocking figures, we need to all do our bit and stop breeding dogs.
We need to rescue instead. A lot of these dogs in shelters are pedigree dogs people don't realise.

Can you guarantee a dog in rescue has five generations of good health tests and working qualifications?
A pedigree is not the issue, it's what is IN the pedigree that is important.
Doing away with all the individual qualities of each breed will mean dogs as a species will turn into a beige, homogenous mess.
Doing away with selective breeding will mean none of the qualities which make dogs good at the their various roles, so you can wave goodbye to police dogs and guide dogs too.
Let's stop breeding and buying horses and just rescue them instead?

 

[AmyMay]

We need to rescue instead. A lot of these dogs in shelters are pedigree dogs people don't realise.

Except it seems impossible to be accepted as a suitable home for a rescue dog.

Plus, the people responding here that they’ve bred their dogs have done so for very specific reasons to do with their breed of dogs, and future of a health tested breed.

 

[CorvusCorax]

My Mum has a rescue dog, she loves him to bits, but he has bad separation anxiety, barks incessantly in the car and isn't clean. None of these things became apparent until he was settled, as with most rehomed dogs. It is not a problem for my Mum but he was returned to the place after being initially rehomed from a family who got rid of him after having kids. Not everyone wants to take on issues like that. These are things which mean a dog like him would unfortunately not be able to live with me (I work, travel with dogs a lot and rent, so I could not have a noisy, destructive dog that soils his environs). By selecting pups from animals with good temperaments (IE not naturally neurotic or anxious) and bringing them up the way I want, I make life easier and happier for them and for my landlords and the people who live around us.

 

[Spotherisk]

The dogs we’ve had as puppy’s, whether bought or bred, have turned out much better for us than rehomers/rescues.

we currently have a lab which came to us as a rehomer through vague acquaintances. She is lovely but doesn’t have the bond that the others do and the same went for a great working cocker who we got at less than a year old. He would have been a lock down puppy, his then owners rang the Police to get rid of him as he was getting a bit keen with their bitch! So he went to a friend who rehomes on behalf of the Police, he wasn’t interested in chasing balls and therefore didn’t go on drug squad training but came to us. Lovely boy but not dedicated to us like those we’ve had from birth or eight weeks.

 

[I'm Dun]

I have always alternated a bought dog and a rescue dog. This time it should be a rescue but Im going to a breeder instead. I know exactly what I want temperament and breeding wise, and honestly, even if I could find it in a rescue I just cant be bothered with all the rigmarole involved only to be turned down anyway!

 

[Birker2020]

I have always alternated a bought dog and a rescue dog. This time it should be a rescue but Im going to a breeder instead. I know exactly what I want temperament and breeding wise, and honestly, even if I could find it in a rescue I just cant be bothered with all the rigmarole involved only to be turned down anyway!

I think things are slightly different post Covid and I suspect it will be easier to adopt now. I read that a lot of rescue dogs during covid were being resold when owners got fed up with them and this is why it was so hard to adopt rescue dogs. When the dogs who had been rehomed by these people wouldn't sell they were disguising them as strays before taking them back to rescue centres.

 

[I'm Dun]

I'm half heartedly looking at the minute and there seems to be an awful lot of teenage upwards dog for sale for astronomical prices. Id be happy to take one on like that but I'm not paying someone over a grand to sort out issues. There was absolutely nothing in rescues during covid. My friend manages a big local one and it was empty, which is something shes never ever seen before. There seems to be a lot in there now though.

 

[Nicnac]

Yes, my first Bernese Mountain Dog was a stud dog in Belgium. Best of both worlds. Either got the price of a puppy or first choice of litter as payment. And that is why I have had 7 BMDs......!

I've never bred from any of my bitches.

 

[Moobli]

There’s no doubt that the rescue dog situation in this country is depressing. Reputable breeders do not contribute to the numbers though, as they take back any pup they’ve bred, at whatever stage in it’s life, if the owner can no longer keep it.
I have rescued/rehomed dogs in the past and likely will do again in the future. In fact, I’ve just taken on a 17 week old border collie pup from a FB group that had already had two pet homes who couldn’t cope with his behaviour. I’ve since found out he was bred from two working farm dogs so I hope he’ll be suited to working sheep, which will secure him a permanent home with us. I’m considering helping more unwanted young collies in future, with a view to assessing them for work and placing them in working homes if possible.

 

[Annette4]

I've never bred and never would (I would end up keeping them all) but if I had the right dog, with the relevant permission from his breeder, I would consider studding BUT I'd be very selective and would likely only be if we wanted a puppy.

In terms of rescue vs. responsible breeders....I've had 2 dogs from highly respected responsible breeders, 2 from resuces and one from a back yard breeder. I was in touch with the breeders until we lost the dogs and we got exceptionally lucky with our rescues but they are not without their difficulties and I could see Ginny having gone back to the rescue in a different home. Backyard breeders are the issue, Dobbys breeder wanted us to take him at 6 weeks, didn't worm him at all and while he has fallen on his feet here, I dread to think what happened to his 3 littermates although I do hope the rescue we flagged them to got them out.

Our next will be a responsibily bred sports bred or show bred dog (we're on the list for a show litter but it will depend on when it falls as if its not right I've got my eye on another planned collie x litter for 2024). I could get exceptionally lucky with a rescue but I have some ambitions I would like to fulfill which I am incredibly unlikely to do with a rescue.

 

[rara007]

No chance! I can’t see how someone working could have time to do it justice. My dogs are ‘only’ pets too (and currently boys).

 

[Cinnamontoast]

there are something like 17,000 healthy dogs pts every year in the UK and in America : Each year, approximately 920,000 shelter animals are euthanized (390,000 dogs and 530,000 cats). The number of dogs and cats euthanized in U.S. shelters annually has declined from approximately 2.6 million in 2011. This decline can be partially explained by an increase in the percentage of animals adopted and an increase in the number of stray animals successfully returned to their owners.
https://www.aspca.org/helping-people-pets/shelter-intake-and-surrender/pet-statistics

Absolutely shocking figures, we need to all do our bit and stop breeding dogs.
We need to rescue instead. A lot of these dogs in shelters are pedigree dogs people don't realise.

That’s an extremely heartbreaking reason to avoid a breeder, but not everyone wants or can have a rescue. Not sure why you mention the American issue. Maybe we should stop importing foreign rescues or petition the Welsh government to ban puppy farming, although that will probably just cause the whole thing to go underground and further worsen conditions for those poor dogs. I’ll probably get a rescue or two once we move, but this is our 3rd set of two puppies, it’s what we want.

In the future, when I’m retired, I would possibly consider a litter, but I don’t think I’d be able to give any up, so I’d end up with a dozen dogs! If ever I did it, it would be ‘properly’, all health tests in place, plus a low breeding co-efficient. On balance, I’d rather go back to my breeder if she’s still going.

 

[HorseyTee]

Simba is the result of my only ever litter.

I had his mom from 9 weeks old. Decided I wanted to breed her and keep a pup back.
I looked for a stud who was proven, with her being a maiden bitch, he was KC reg and hip/elbow scored with good scores. Great temperament, family dog ect.
However, Sandy was neither KC reg or scored, I never even saw her dam or sire, she was delivered to me from Wales....the horror honestly now that I'm more experienced, I was 19 at the time and just got romantically carried away.

So, I can now sit and say I didn't do it the right way.
Although I did have a waiting list for pups, it was torture letting them go, and it's been torture all these years as obviously you don't have control once they leave.
I was very lucky to stay in touch with most of them (litter of 8, I kept Simba, and his sister went to a friend, and several I became friends with the owners). I even had 2 of the boys back each year during their family's holidays, which was great.
I also endured the heartbreak when due to illness or old age, some passed away.
As far as I know, Simba is the remaining dog now, but there are 2 who I lost touch with sadly years ago, so I've no idea if they are alive or not or had happy lives.

I can safely say I'll never breed again.
I certainly made mistakes and it was just too emotionally taxing.
But I'll never regret getting Simba from it, and the relationship he had with his mommy was just beautiful, but he also suffered deeply when we lost her and he's never been the same dog since.

 

[Birker2020]

That’s an extremely heartbreaking reason to avoid a breeder, but not everyone wants or can have a rescue. Not sure why you mention the American issue. .

I mentioned the American issue because I thought people would be staggered about the amount of animals that are euthanised, its a massive number.

I understand not everyone wants a rescue, but there are a number of pedigrees out there. In the Doghouse examined the rescue culture and there are so kill shelters in America housing many pedigree dogs, I expect it is the same over here, in fact I remember Paul O'Grady saying that there were plenty of pedigree rescues at Battersea. Also breed specific rescue sites such as Beagle Welfare where we got our beagle from.

 

[Birker2020]

I can safely say I'll never breed again.
I certainly made mistakes and it was just too emotionally taxing.
But I'll never regret getting Simba from it, and the relationship he had with his mommy was just beautiful, but he also suffered deeply when we lost her and he's never been the same dog since.

That's really interesting, I'm sorry it was so emotionally draining for you, I can imagine I would be very upset to let anything go, I was desperately upset to send Lari my horse on sales livery and upset when we let the baby rabbits go to the pet shop as a youngster.

I can imagine how people that foster animals grow a bond with them, the same with guide dogs, it must be so hard.

 

[milliepops]

interesting thread to read as a person who doesn't even have a dog. I can see why people choose to buy a puppy instead of getting a rescue though.

related...I felt like I'd Done A Terrible Thing when i bred my foal, rather than taking on a horse already on the planet, but I've done my time with rescues, rehomes, projects... after 20 years of struggle i want something that is not effed up already for once and to just have a horse i can put my own stamp on rather than spend the first few years undoing problems. She's now 2 years old and I've finally realised that is an acceptable POV and i can stop feeling guilty about it!! So I'm doing it again

Easier to make guarantees to one horse though than a whole litter.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Well a country 40 times the size of GB (I think there's at least ten states larger than it as well) probably will have a larger number of anything, really.

It's a common mistake but 'a dog I believe is pure bred/not a crossbreed' and 'pedigree' is not the same thing.
There are a lot of things you cannot do with a dog that has no papers/cannot be registered anywhere, and I understand that, as while some registries leave a lot to be desired, it's one way of ensuring the dog's ancestry/health and working test results of those who have gone before.
I can have a dog I strongly believe or even know is a German Shepherd, but if I don't have it recognised/registered with an approved body, then I don't have proof.

 

[Birker2020]

Well a country 40 times the size of GB (I think there's at least ten states larger than it as well) probably will have a larger number of anything, really.

Oh well that's all right then.

 

[Moobli]

I mentioned the American issue because I thought people would be staggered about the amount of animals that are euthanised, its a massive number.

I understand not everyone wants a rescue, but there are a number of pedigrees out there. In the Doghouse examined the rescue culture and there are so kill shelters in America housing many pedigree dogs, I expect it is the same over here, in fact I remember Paul O'Grady saying that there were plenty of pedigree rescues at Battersea. Also breed specific rescue sites such as Beagle Welfare where we got our beagle from.

I don’t think it’s a case of nobody cares. Far from it. USA is not UK though. The latest figures (via Google) are around 80,000 unwanted dogs are put to sleep in England and Wales yearly. The figures are RSPCA so presumably Scotland’s figures aren’t included. That’s a horrific number.
There are many pedigree and purebred dogs in rescue, there are numerous breed rescue societies. All full to bursting. We need to make it more attractive to people who don’t need a dog for a specific purpose, to choose a rescue (less restrictive blanket policies for example) but really the overbreeding needs to be addressed at the root. How? I have no idea.

 

[twiggy2]

there are something like 17,000 healthy dogs pts every year in the UK and in America : Each year, approximately 920,000 shelter animals are euthanized (390,000 dogs and 530,000 cats). The number of dogs and cats euthanized in U.S. shelters annually has declined from approximately 2.6 million in 2011. This decline can be partially explained by an increase in the percentage of animals adopted and an increase in the number of stray animals successfully returned to their owners.
https://www.aspca.org/helping-people-pets/shelter-intake-and-surrender/pet-statistics

Absolutely shocking figures, we need to all do our bit and stop breeding dogs.
We need to rescue instead. A lot of these dogs in shelters are pedigree dogs people don't realise.

Do remember that a lot of those dogs are put to sleep because of behavioural issues.
We have a rescue lurcher and 7 working collies, the house dogs will most likely always be rescues but the collies we breed when we have a bitch with the working characteristics and work ethic we desire and when we are looking to start a new dog to the teams.
I have a WhatsApp group for the pups and yesterday one popped in to meet his mum, dad and sister again, he met up with his brother the day before, last year we had one come to stay for a week whilst his owners went on honeymoon.
Any needing to would be offered a place back here is their owners could not keep them.
Edited to add, we also work in a public space and cannot have sharp unpredictable collies here, we have in fact had one we bred put to sleep due to biting, rescues need to be more honest and open about what they are homing and also more prepared to pts dogs with issues IMO.

 

[Birker2020]

I don’t think it’s a case of nobody cares. Far from it. USA is not UK though. The latest figures (via Google) are around 80,000 unwanted dogs are put to sleep in England and Wales yearly. The figures are RSPCA so presumably Scotland’s figures aren’t included. That’s a horrific number.
There are many pedigree and purebred dogs in rescue, there are numerous breed rescue societies. All full to bursting. We need to make it more attractive to people who don’t need a dog for a specific purpose, to choose a rescue (less restrictive blanket policies for example) but really the overbreeding needs to be addressed at the root. How? I have no idea.

This totally.

 

[CorvusCorax]

I don’t think it’s a case of nobody cares. Far from it. USA is not UK though. The latest figures (via Google) are around 80,000 unwanted dogs are put to sleep in England and Wales yearly. The figures are RSPCA so presumably Scotland’s figures aren’t included. That’s a horrific number.
There are many pedigree and purebred dogs in rescue, there are numerous breed rescue societies. All full to bursting. We need to make it more attractive to people who don’t need a dog for a specific purpose, to choose a rescue (less restrictive blanket policies for example) but really the overbreeding needs to be addressed at the root. How? I have no idea.

Is that even it though? This is a wider debate, I'm frustrated by the amount of hobby breeding done with no health tests because the puppies will be 'just pets' (of course we know it is to save money).
As if 'just pets' aren't worthy of long and healthy lives, as if HD/ED for example is any easier on 'just pets' and their owners and as an observation/generalisation, pet owners seem to expect more physical activity in young dogs than people who are conservative with their working/sports dogs and build them up carefully because we understand the implications of wear and tear in young dogs.
And IME it's not the sport or working people constantly complaining that their dog 'went down in his back end/his hips went/he has bad arthritis' at a young age.

There needs to be some way of incentivising the breeders who do things right/getting people to do more research on a puppy than they do on a phone or a toaster.
In some countries no one **wants** a pup without the whistles and bells, so hardly anyone breeds like that.

 

[Thistle]

@Thistle do you trial your dog, out of interest?

I'm not brave enough to trial, working tests are less stressful. However, never say never. If young lab is a good as her potential then it could be a possibility. My dogs have to fit round the rest of our lives, they also work during the shoot season which can make them a bit wild. I spend a month or two at the end of the season putting the rules back in!

 

[Caol Ila]

I've never owned a dog, but I see why you'd get one from a breeder instead of a rescue if you needed it for a specific job. Many generations of working collie lines, say, are more likely to give you a good sheepdog than Ms. random rescue collie.

Rescues were restrictive well before Covid. My friend tried to get a dog in 2017, after she lost her old dog, and none of the UK rescues would let her near one because she lived alone and worked full-time. She ended up using one of the Romanian rescues because their policies were a bit more open and realistic. Another friend also got a dog from Romania -- also in 2017 -- because she was a vet student, and the UK rescues would not rehome to a student.

Following another thread, I had a look on the Dog's Trust website, and so many of them have serious behavioural issues. Can't be around kids, other dogs, cats, can't go off lead, can't be left alone, doesn't like strangers, etc. etc. If you want a dog but you have kids, a job, friends, other animals, the rescues aren't giving you many options. The fact that all these animals are there definitely highlights the crisis of people acquiring dogs who should not have done, and other people breeding unhealthy, bad-tempered things, but at the same time, it doesn't help the people who are capable of taking care of a well-adjusted dog, but can't have one with a million issues.

Point is, you can't 'just rescue' a dog so easily.

 

[Birker2020]

Do remember that a lot of those dogs are put to sleep because of behavioural issues.
We have a rescue lurcher and 7 working collies, the house dogs will most likely always be rescues but the collies we breed when we have a bitch with the working characteristics and work ethic we desire and when we are looking to start a new dog to the teams.
I have a WhatsApp group for the pups and yesterday one popped in to meet his mum, dad and sister again, he met up with his brother the day before, last year we had one come to stay for a week whilst his owners went on honeymoon.
Any needing to would be offered a place back here is their owners could not keep them.
Edited to add, we also work in a public space and cannot have sharp unpredictable collies here, we have in fact had one we bred put to sleep due to biting, rescues need to be more honest and open about what they are homing and also more prepared to pts dogs with issues IMO.

I get that but there are a lot of shelters in the UK that do not have space and have no choice, they have to weed out the most desirable dogs, i.e. light coloured medium sized dogs that look and act appealing. https://www.theguardian.com/world/shortcuts/2013/dec/08/dog-pounds-nightmare-christmas-unwanted-pets

 

[Books'n'dogs]

I'm an American and the amount of dogs and cats destroyed each year breaks my heart but whenever I have looked at what I feel are reputable rescues in my area they all say the dogs need to go to homes with no children under 12; I don't have any children under 12 but I have nieces and nephews that are and the probability of more to come, I want my dog(s) to be able to be around the children in my life and vice versa.

Responsible breeders are not the problem, the breeder of my German Shepherd once drove across the Rocky Mountains in a blizzard to retrieve one of her dogs whose owner had died and I know she has coordinated the return of other dogs she has bred as well. I have zero guilt in buying a puppy from her because I know her devotion to the dogs she brings into the world is for their entire lives.

 

[spacefaer]

We've had 3 litters in the last 8 years so wouldn't class ourselves as serious breeders. First litter, we kept two of the four, the other two went to friends.
Second litter was out of a bitch from the first litter. We had one, the owner of the bitch had one, and a friend of theirs had the third.
Third - we kept two again, and the other three all went to knowledgeable working homes. We're in touch with all the owners.

We're planning a litter from the lab next spring, once she's had a winter working and trialling.(and hopefully getting made up). We've got three people on the waiting list for a pup from her already - all working/trailling homes.

A massive amount of thought and research has gone into each litter. The cockers are now 11 generations of our own breeding. We only breed to continue the bloodlines and the pups are very carefully placed.

 

[cbmcts]

Do also remember that during Covid that many if not most of the dogs coming into rescue had severe physical and/or behavioural issues - due to the market forces, relatively easy dogs were sold for good money. Those dogs only hit rescue when they had been through multiple homes and were unhappy and unsettled and acting out. At the same time, most applicants for dogs would have been lovely homes but either didn't have the experience or facilities to deal with 'difficult' dogs...Also, perhaps unfairly to some, rescues have to pick up the pieces after people who talked a very good talk hand back a dog who was rehomed with full disclosure and proceed to spout off over social media how they were conned so are cautious to say the least. Reputations are hard won but easily lost these days. And after the horrific dog attacks (note that none of the dogs involved were reported to be rescues!) that made the news in the past few months, rescues need to be even more careful that people are not unwittingly 'over dogging' themselves as the consequences could be so horrific to the new owners and those around them. ! have in the past and currently have rescues with issues and until you've been there it is very easy to underestimate how on the ball you must be with these dogs - I sometimes drop the ball despite doing this for years but bitter experience has taught me to have back stops in place so that everyone stays safe. I started taking on these dogs many years ago when, in general people were more understanding of my/the dogs errors and there was fewer dogs and more space to work with them. There just wasn't the fur baby, love will cure all culture which IMO allows a lot of dogs to get themselves into trouble.

I'm a huge advocate for rescuing but am also realistic enough to know that some people want to do things with their dogs that are not compatible with an unregistered older dog and that training to specific circumstances is easier when you start with an unspoilt pup. No guarantees with a pup of course but it does give you a fighting chance! Of the 11 dogs I've had of 'my' breed, only one was from a puppy and that was because I wanted one that hadn't been mucked up by others for once and my household at that time wasn't really suited to an older new dog coming in. Would I get another pup? Yes possibly, especially as I get older and find that I am not as strong as I once was and don't want to have to to wrestle a large breed adult rescue until the training is in place.

 

[Cinnamontoast]

That's really interesting, I'm sorry it was so emotionally draining for you, I can imagine I would be very upset to let anything go, I was desperately upset to send Lari my horse on sales livery and upset when we let the baby rabbits go to the pet shop as a youngster.

I can imagine how people that foster animals grow a bond with them, the same with guide dogs, it must be so hard.

You’ve sold Lari? Did I miss a thread?

I think the American numbers are clearly elevated (I mean, taking into account the obvious size difference versus the UK) because they have (I think) far more kill shelters than we have in this country.