Having a horse PTS for behavioral reason - would you? Have you?

E

ecrozier

Well-Known Member
Joined
20 October 2006
Messages
6,173
Visit site
Thankfully not one of my boys but a fellow livery and good friend's mare. Brief history, bought from field as a backed and turned away rising 5 year old. Passed 5 stage, brought her home, bit unsettled and highly strung but 5 year old tb we figured wasn't exactly unexpected. Re did all groundwork etc (started from scratch) all went ok and she got on to the point of basic walk /steer/stop under saddle. However as soon as the mare was taken out of her 'comfort zone', ie a helper at her head on on a lunge, problems started. She is nappy in the extreme and will rear vertically and stand upright on hind legs for several seconds (at the time feels like minutes!). Friend is experienced and competent, and sought advice which mainly comprised of ride her forward through it. Unfortunately things slowly escalated the more the mare was asked to leave her friends/leave the yard/or on a variety of occasions go to a particular end of the school/past a scary object etc. Back teeth saddle etc all checked repeatedly by several specialists. She also does this in hand. Other days she is absolutely as sweet as you can imagine a horse to be. Eventually friend admitted this is something she can't deal with in her situation (busy job, can't ride 7 days a week or guarantee unlimited time to work through issues when they arrise. Sold her via a dealer (whole other story) but long story short she is back, having reportedly gone up and over with purchaser.
We have no idea what they have been doing with her but she is now significantly 'wilder', is lame (deep-seated fungal infection of frog) and won't stay on box rest as jumps out or kicks her way throug door. She is wild at times in the field if turned out, and half te time won't even stand on yard - back just over a week and broken 4 leadropes. When the vet came to look at infection she stood up 6 times in 20 mins. Other days, she is as good as gold and butter wouldn't melt.
Friend is in a real quandary working out what to do for the best. Some people are saying breed from her (don't worry she isn't insane and therefore isn't considering that as an option!) others are saying possibly look at role as carrier mare for embryo transfer or blood bank - but she isn't exactly submissive in a herd!!
So really what I am asking for is people's opinions and experience of the option of having her PTS for her own good, as not only is keeping her as a pet not financially viable but she is even endangering herself and others on a day to day basis on the yard..... Or alternatively any other ideas?! Thoughts?
 
Obviously I know exactly the horse you refer to.
The owner has tried long and hard with her and there comes a point when you have to admit defeat. What you do then is quite a personal decision but IMO if you own them you have their future in your hands and owe them the right outcome. I couldn't believe it when I heard the horse was put through a dealer, I couldn't ever have that on my concience.

An ET mare really does need to be easy to handle and reliable. Blood bank, she wouldn't be their ideal type. As difficult as it is, for this particular horse, I think PTS is a very viable option if the owner isn't in the position to keep her as a pet herself. It's a horrid decision to have to make though.
 
I wouldn't hesistate.

Unfortunately IMHO even if a reason for her behaviour is found and a cure for the reason effected the learned behaviour is too severe to make her a reasonable prospect.
 
The only other horse I knew of like this was put down and the autopsy found a brain tumour. Has she been checked for polycystic ovaries and ulcers? If so, I would have her put down.
 
What a sad situation! I really think that the best thing for the mare is to PTS. With other horses, then I'm sure you could turn away out in the field for a year or 2 to see whether some chill time works, but obviously this is not an option. I really would consider putting to sleep. She sounds like a danger to herself, and if sold, could be dangerous, end of. :(
 
Thanks all. Re the brain tumour suggestion, it is something that has been raised, however and I know this sounds a bit ridiculous but if you saw her, she is fully in control of all her mental faculties at all times! There is no fear in her eyes or even panic, she once had a tantrum in our yard car park which is maybe 20x20 with 6 cars and a lorry parked in it, went up again and again and again, broke free, etc.... And never so much as touched a vehicle.
IHW - agreed re dealer BUT the deal was it was disclosed that she was nappy and awkward and at that point had never gone over, and I honestly think owner had begun to think part of problem was her, especially when 'dealer' had her a month and reported they didn't have any trouble with her at all!
Polycystic ovaries and ulcers - not sure. Would those prompt such random outbursts? Owner has previous horse with ulcers so is reasonably knowledgeable with those and hasn't flagged that up, for her type she holds weight well etc.
Turning away for a year or two - sadly not sure it would make any odds with her. Even my non-horsey dad picked her out of the herd (had told him about her as he knows said friend) he came up to yard, looked over fence at mares and she did her normal 'stallionesque' coming round herd, moving them away and standing between them and the 'threat' (us!!)
 
Ps we think she did this when first backed, and was chucked back in a field, and from that point knew she could make the decisions and do what she wanted!
 
I'm sure it's one of the toughest decisions to make but it sounds like PTS would make everyone's life easier. Is there any pros in keeping her? I think if a domestic animal is dangerous, and it sounds like she is, both to herself and to others, there's no point keeping them :( after all, a nightmare horse is just as much to keep as a perfect one. I mean, PTS is humane these days and the animal won't even feel anything, they won't know what they're missing out on, so largely the whole emotional side is just us people feeling bad, isn't it?
 
I was assuming she had done a full vet check - scanning ovaries / regumate would be one of the first things? If not that has to be worth a go, she'll always be an ungererous stroppy cow but a semi manageable stroppy cow might save her the bullet!
 
Eva, exactly, I think it's more a question of the emotional attachment (such as it is) and a feeling of having let the horse down by not sorting the problem out. But a pros/cons list might be a good way to rationalise that.
 
From a slightly different point of view, if this horse were a dog, and was unreliable in its behaviour, bordering on aggresive and unpredictable, would there be any hesitation in PTS-ing it? (If all the same things had been done as with the horse to try and change the behaviour).

Your safety and that of those who have to handle her is paramount.
 
Oh yes she tried regumate - no difference, also another hormone related supplement, also no difference. She hasn't been scoped but equally there was I think no other symptoms for ulcers, plus the behaviour is whilst random in some ways also 100% linked to temper tantrums and her opinion of 'my way is the only way'.
 
I'd suggest the mare was in pain. If owner doesn't want to investigate, treat (probs kissing spine or similar) and take a chance that the behaviour will change then yes, I would PTS.
In fact, I had a tb mare just the same and she was PTS
 
Agree with ihatework, as an owner one has a repsonsiblity for the life of the horse. Yes, she's a very difficult mare but often these horses can be great if the right person is found. And it's not about talent or experience but who she clicks with. If she isn't a nutcase the whole time then I suspect that there is something else going on.
 
Tried bite trial (re back pain) seen by physio and Chiro and vet, all gave full clean bill of health. Kissing spines etc - she is almost as bad in hand / in stable as ridden? Eyes checked - no problem. Bad training, possibly during initial breaking in? No hasn't been sent away apart from to be sold, they had apparently no trouble with her, but only had her a month. Couple of pros have advised but often not seen her at her very worst, when it is nigh on impossible to ride her through it as she is dangerous
Britestar - agree entirely. She's not normally aggressive to people just dangerous if you happen to be in the way!
 
ecrozier said:
Eva, exactly, I think it's more a question of the emotional attachment (such as it is) and a feeling of having let the horse down by not sorting the problem out. But a pros/cons list might be a good way to rationalise that.
Click to expand...

IMHO it would be letting the horse down by passing the problem on, and her ending up being cruelly treated or injuring someone. I had an aggressive dog PTS (after spending years and hundreds of pounds trying to help him overcome his demons, not a decision taken lightly!) and never regret it although it upset me at the time - I never have to worry about where he is, how he's being treated or who he's bitten.
 
Classicalfan - how would you go about finding the right person? Agreed she isn't a nutcase the whole time, yet in some senses part of the problem is that it's very hard to identify what sets her off... Sometimes it's hacking (goes upright on roads) other days that's fine, sometimes it's going in the school, other days she works fine, some days it's jumping (ie she will nap and real rather than jump) other days she will storm round a xc course!
 
Last edited:
Classicalmare, this isn't a mare I would pass on. The girl who has her is quite a relaxed and sympathetic person and has done her utmost to get through to this horse.

Even when the mare isn't being a nutter she wouldn't be the most generous. Add to that, although she has a bit of scope over a fence her technique is very poor (I always wondered if that had rootes with physical issues?) so isn't really an attractive prospect for a very experienced competitive rider.

If owner isn't prepared to keep then I think it's in the mares best welfare interest to PTS. There may be something very wrong physically or it may be pure temprement, unfortunately unless she wants to spend £££ she'll probably never really know.
 
IHW - absolutely. The calibre of rider who 'might' be able to get through to her is not really going to want to bother for the equine athlete they would get at the end I think. And a less ambitious but competent sympathetic rider has tried every trick she has and everything she has been advised by numerous pros.
Just googled the graulosa cell tumour, worth asking vet although would that not indicate seasonal problems? She's the same in winter and summer!
 
May I tell you about a mare we aquired?
She was one of three a chap liveried with us and didn't pay any money for three years. Being soft we fed them all but the day came when we issued a tuit through a solicitor and they became our property. The mare came with problems, she snapped her teeth at everyone, and if you tried to do anything to her like worm her she attacked full on with teeth, front legs striking out and back end whipping round at you as well. We handled her regardless and spent a long time getting over her issues, and after a year (included in the 3 year period) she was sweet to people she knew in the field. I was puzzled about her so made enquiries, and it turned out a vet near Tewkesbury had fired her and when I rang him admitted to pouring battery acid over her legs to speed the process up. He told me she had put two Newmarket vets in hospital and to beware as she was known for her behaviour. We decided as we had a nice quiet stallion to see if we could breed from her, and the vet came to examine her. She went absolutely mental. Front legs over the door, kicked the door etc and eventually we managed to sedate her over the door. Vet looked internally and she had a deformity which meant foaling would be difficult.
At this point I stepped in and told my husband and the vet we had no option but to euthanise her. My main reason being if she hurt herself she would hurt us as we attempted to help her. Plus with no useful purpose I couldn't see the financial benefits.
It sounds very hard but they agreed and we took her still sedated round into the field. She took more than twice the usual amount to die, we think because her poor mind fought like hell knowing pain was likely to follow after her past experience.
It's haunted me ever since, but being realistic it wasn't us to blame but her previous owner and that vile vet. (who I have to confess I could cheerfully strip and fire his balls if I could, then pour acid over them).
This horse you talk about has been given every chance, a bit like the one above, but some horses are natural rearers to avoid trouble, and she will probably always use this as an evasion.
In the circumstances I would give her a peaceful end (we have had several dozen euthanised here since with never a problem), there are decent horses being pts every day, it's only fair your friend gives one of them the chance to live...
 
Unfortunately I've been in the position of having to make such a decision. A few years ago I bought a beautiful 5 year old TB x CB gelding. The first month of ownership absolutely fine. Then he got kicked in the field resulting in eight weeks recovering time (suspected chip to cannon bone). Once vet confirmed ok to bring back into work decided go back to basics with him, longreining, lunging etc. All usual checks made ie. back, saddle etc. etc. Took it steady get him used to me being sat on him again, leant over, in saddle (laid over neck) etc and then sat upright in saddle. No problems whatsoever. First time went to move forward properly he went straight up vertical, back down and up again and then went over backwards with me. Smacked his head on falling and concussed himself, staggered up and fell again, this happened several times before we could get him to stand and stay upright. Vet came out as emergency as he went into severe shock, several areas of skin missing on his legs, hips etc and he had bit a piece out of his lip. Vet said he would either survive the night or not, he'd pumped him full of as much drugs as possible and it was a waiting game.

Thankfully he survived and we then went down the long road of recovery, in the meantime hips/pelvis etc all checked and no sign of brain/head trauma. However once we were at the point of sitting back on him and went to sit up properly in saddle the same pattern of behaviour started, thankfully with no injuries to him this time. I then sent him to a very well respected local lady who specialises in dealing with ex-racehorses and 'problem' horses. She did lots and lots of groundwork with him, he was quite aggressive and very very reactive. Sufficient progress was made that they were able to essentially re-back him and start basic work with him (albeit with him still going vertical at times) and even managed to hack him out with another horse. Then totally out of the blue he went straight over on top of a member of her staff for no apparent reason (I was there at the time). Went down the route of recovery time from his injuries (skin off hocks etc) and started longreining again. She was keen to see how he reacted to being asked to work properly whilst longreining and began asking for a little flexion whilst in walk. Thank god no-one was on his back as he reacted very violently and literally threw himself over backwards, he did this three times within the space of a couple of minutes - no self preservation whatsoever. He had also started to be a little anxious about his head being touched.

By now we were convinced he was showing typical signs of suffering from a brain tumour (she had dealt with several horses in the past who showed similar symptoms and had been diagnosed successfully). I spoke with my vets who were adament that this was a behavioural problem only. By this point in time I was so worried/upset, hated seeing him react like this - he bore no resemblance to the lovely friendly horse I had bought several months earlier. Several people suggested selling him through the sales but I could never ever have lived with myself if he had (a) hurt himself even more or (b) hurt/killed someone.

I made the heartbreaking decision to have him PTS. Although I know it was the right and only decision I could make it was very hard to do. Over the nine months or so of owning him I had tried every thing we could think of to solve the problem and spent thousands of pounds, but sometimes you have to admit defeat.

I really do feel for your fellow livery but if I were in her position (following my own experiences) I would not hesitate in making the decision to PTS.
 
Thistle, thank you I will pass that info on. It sounds like it is worth investigating although she doesn't exhibit aggression towards people, but other aspects definately tally up.
Henryhorn thank you - since she sold this mare in the early summer she now also has a lovely ex racer who is exactly the sort you describe as one who deserves a chance with a very kind and dedicated owner.
I think perhaps she is exactly as you say, a natural rearer and no amount pf anything will ever chance that.
 
Third time lucky - poor you. Did you ever find out what had caused the problem? Sounds worryingly similar, this mare will sometimes submit to working quite nicely, but other days fights like a wild beast.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top