Having a horse PTS for behavioral reason - would you? Have you?

TarrSteps said:
Jason is the guy kerrili referred to. There are a couple of people on here who have used him so could give the OP some more info to pass along.
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Ahh ok missed that sorry. Here is his website http://australianhorsetraining.co.uk/

My vets referred me to him in 2004 as they weren't sure whether my horse's issues (fear of mounting) were pain related or behavioural/remembered pain. Jason was great, got me involved with the re-training. Told me issues related to a previous negative experience and showed me how to handle things going forwards. I was a bit sceptical, but accepted his words. I still have the horse and couple of months ago I tracked down the horse's previous owner - turns out she had a horrendous fall whilst mounting, she broke her leg in 10 places and completed shattered her knee was given a 50/50 chance of walking again.
 
yes, that's who i meant, Jason Webb. got to be worth a try IF the owner can afford it.
fwiw the really really tricky ones like this, if they can be turned around (and obv it is a very very big IF) can become amazing comp horses, once they decide to work with you not against you...
 
Just to add to the above, even if the issue is pain related retraining can be a HUGE part of getting to a reasonable solution. It's not just about "remembering" and "phobias", it's about training the body and the mind differently. Helping a horse go in a sounder way, helping it understand the world and making it generally more relaxed will "solve" all sorts of problems even if there is something underlying.

I had one to ride with behaviour similar to the OP horse with an old neck fracture which was only discovered quite late in the game, after the horse had already made a significant improvement (mostly because i kept fussing ;) ). At that point, the vet actually injected the area, which allowed me to progress with the training more quickly, but with the proviso that it would likely need to be done regularly. In fact, that was not the case. As the horse improved over all, he learned to "deal" with his neck and I'm sure it helped along whatever healing process was already in play. So was he "fixed" by the medical treatment or the training? Both, of course.

Now, I will say, that horse ended up in trouble because the owners sold him on without disclosing his history and the next owners insisted in jumping him in draw reins and it went horribly wrong . . . it did teach me that sometimes "fixing" a situation is not always doing the best for the horse long term. :(

I am pretty sure very talented trainers are doing a bit more than they let on, but that's for another day . . .

Jason (and less high profile people, to be fair) clearly have success where other's don't. Why is not always relative if it gets the horse to the right place. They have the knowledge and set up to do things the average rider cannot. Even in kerilli's example - I've known a lot of "cowboys" (literally ones, not as a pejorative term) who have not always done things in a way people would approve of but their rational was if it saved the horse's life, then it was worth it. I knew one horse that was bucking people off and got ponied up and down a mountain for few days with a 200lb salt sack on it. I'm sure it was almost on its knees but it solved the problem - humane or not? Depends on your point of view.
 
If you can get this horse to Richard Maxwells place, he might be able to help you, he is a really good guy and will do his best to help get this poor horse on an even keel, good luck, its a hellish place to be.
Fwiw, sounds like the ops friend has tried everything, and Max could be the last ditch attempt.
Heartbreaking as it is, if a behaviourist doesnt work, i think pts is the kindest option, as even handling as a field ornament like this could be dangerous to the extreme
 
Why not send her back to the people who were able to boot her through it? Might well be what she needs. Or turn her away for a year and see what happens, yes she might gallop around at first and this may not be possible with her injury, but she would settle, she is a horse. (I am talking a decent field with a herd of horses not just a half acre paddock on her own.
Or send her to someone like richard Maxwell etc whod eals with problem horses. Doesn't sound like she has actually tried 'everything' as others are saying, there are many avenues and it might take time and money to investigate them, starting with a vet check, much as it would with any horse with a veterinary or training problem.
 
ecrozier said:
Turning away for a year or two - sadly not sure it would make any odds with her. Even my non-horsey dad picked her out of the herd (had told him about her as he knows said friend) he came up to yard, looked over fence at mares and she did her normal 'stallionesque' coming round herd, moving them away and standing between them and the 'threat' (us!!)
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That might be a clue! Is she out with mares only - or a mixed sex group? If a mixed sex group, has she been seen to be aggressive with them, or dominating?? If so, it may be that she has a GTC tumour that is causing her to behave like an ill-mannered stallion. An u/s scan of the ovaries would be an inexpensive check (although surgery to remove tumouir/ovary would be more expensive!)

I note this has been suggested and that she had been tried on Regumate. Regumate wouldn't help - and the behaviour caused by a GTC tumour is the same all year around as it isn't connected to her cycle - basically the tumour produces fairly large quantities of testosterone makig her act like a stallion!

A scan will show an abnormally large ovary with a distinctive pattern (if vet is familiar with the appearance of this type of tumour) and the other ovary will be much smaller than normal. Have they seen her coming into season?? (Mares with a GTC tumour tend not to!)
 
Thanks all. I think another chat with the vet but specificallyre the gtc tumour, an animal communicator and a call to Max will be on the list as her last 3 avenues to try. Sadly she is not well off but will do her very best. Many thanks for all the thoughts.
 
I think it would be worth investigating the overies etc as if she is acting in a very stallionesque manner it could well be she has cysts. It may well be her body is coursing with testosterone and making her behaviour OTT. Cysts etc can be treated and the over production of testosterone can be medicated. It would be worth crossing this off the list and if she's found to have healthy overies then I think PTS is also a viable option.
I only mention the overies as a potential as I have had a friend with a monster of a mare to handle/turn out with others who was scanned found to have cysts and subsequently treated and is now very different to ride and handle.
 
I would definitely PTS, there are so many nice horses out there that are desperate for a good home, why would you keep one that could potentially kill someone?
 
To be honest if she is not well off, she would be better to PTS and rehome a sweet racehorse (which I think above you said she has done?)

Jason is great, and I'm guess he would probably lay her down to see if it has a massive impact on her behviour - dominate horses are so shocked you can do this that they suddenly get you are the alpha and stop treating you like a subordinate (providing its not a true mental issue)
 
I was reading some of this thread earlier and have been thinking about it since and felt I needed to add my experience with my difficult mare - just in case it made any sense with this mare. I doubt it is the case but just in case....my mare had become really difficult about 18 months ago. Hacking out was the biggest issue she just would try to rear and spin and nap for home and I had some almightly battles where I had to dig really deep to win them. In the arena not so many problems though she was still complicated and not very on your side. It got so that I stopped hacking out as it was too dangerous and I didn't want to lose these battles and I suspected there was a reason for her behaviour. She became a very angry horse and not very happy. I had tried all sorts - the usual back, teeth, regumate etc. The last thing I thought of was ulcers as she was a horse that 'did so well' - not your stereotypical scrawny ulcer horse. But I decided to try the treatment as the only symptom she did have was she was touchy to girth and to rug and I could sort of pin this change down to a period of box rest she had.

Anyway tried gastroguard for 2 months, coligone since and I have a transformed horse - eventing this year placed most times at BE100 and I am now actually enjoying hacking out with her.

I think discomfort/pain can manifest itself in funny ways with horses with different triggers and situations causing the bad behaviour making it very tricky to pin down the cause.

This may be not relevant at all to this mare - and I also think that you can't keep trying for ever with these types of horses. The financial as well as the emotional drain is huge with these type of horses and you have to draw a line somewhere and take that decision.
 
squirtlysmum said:
I think it would be worth investigating the overies etc as if she is acting in a very stallionesque manner it could well be she has cysts. It may well be her body is coursing with testosterone and making her behaviour OTT. Cysts etc can be treated and the over production of testosterone can be medicated.
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I think you are confusing cysts - which do not cause behavioural problems and do not produce testosterone with a GTC tumour - which does! Cysts are normally in the uterus (very rarely on the ovaries) and only cause problems as a rule with brood mares.
 
If all avenues are checked out and fail, then yes I would pts. Much better than passing on.

Good suggestions though in this thread. I'm not normally a believer in horse comunicators, but recently shared a yard with one who specializes in healing and was very impressed. May be worth a try as she does distant work too. I had her work on my back and so I know it works.

www.equinebodytalk.co.uk
 
Meant to add this lady works in removing negative energy connected to traumas so if the has history that may be causing this, could be worth a shot. Don't ask me how, half of me thinks its all nuts, bit the other half has seen a friend's overly anxious stressy gelding with long term loading issues, calmly walk on a trailer first time and stand quiet after one session with this communicator. Not a fluke either....and I've previously spent many hours waiting for him to decide to load....
 
I've heard of the depriving of water trick before, we sold a horse in fantastic condition to a well know event dealing yard warning them it was a tricky ride.
It was many months before the new owner contacted us and said the horse was a bag of bones when she bought it from them.
Talking later to a former rider of theirs he told us that was how they'd managed to make it behave quietly enough to sell.
I was very tempted to kidnap the dealer and shut him in a stable for a few days without water.. Barbaric and frankly I'd rather euthanise a horse than allow it to endure that.
 
I have not read all the post but I would try regumate to see if it helped have a gastric scope to look for ulcers and if no help I would PTS I did PTS a healthy 3 year old it was home bred had no reason to unmanageable but was a dangerous horse it was awful I took ages to recover from doing it but it was the right thing to do.
 
I knew a mare that displayed many of the problems/issues you've stated. The owner devoted hours every day to 'making good' her issues,bonding,retraining etc(she bought her as a lightly ridden 5/6 yr old) but the horse was dangerous. Owner struggled on with her,despite much advice from NH people,vets,instructors the horse didn't improve over 18mths(except to learn to stand when tied up). Best word I could describe horse with is 'unhinged'. She was different to any horse I've known-seemed mentally scarred-hard to describe,she seemed 'unhappy'& detached. Will never know if she had tumour or similar as,tragically,she bolted on a hack&her owner was killed. Horse was,in many people's opinion,an accident waiting to happen:(
 
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