having puppies?

[CAYLA]

This post is the reason I am sitting with so many rescue dogs

:
I dont think people should be encouraged to breed from dogs of un-sound temperament.

I dread to think of how protective she will be over puppies if she protects her bones in such an agressive manor

HH............I know u say that your family want these puppies..........but can u guarantee they will keep them if agression becomes a factor with any of the puppies? and are u able to take them back is this matter arises........and dont forget these puppies can be breed from themselves and their puppies so on.

I dont think breeding from horses is an equal example

considering a horse foals once a year and produce one off spring.......bitches on the other hand can breed on average of between 6-12 puppies at time and produce this twice in a 12 month period

HH....please take a look at my pics and see for yourself the kinds of dogs we get in......people have shelled out a small fortune for these dogs......but as soon as a problem arises...be it agression or simply chewing

they dont think twice in regards to re-homing and PTS

I do feel I have the right to express this .....considering I am the one spending the money and not making it

It takes years and experience to become a good breeder.....and clearly not in all cases

due to what I have read...........please take MILORS advice....who is a very experienced breeder.....and others who have behavioral experience

Good luck

 

[jj4y]

Well said Cala. I find it extremely disconcerting that so called top breeders are not taking temperament into consideration when producing pups. Remind me never to buy a pup from a 'top breeder' again!

 

[CAYLA]

LOL

 

[BroadfordQueen]

*breathes in and out slowly*

my..dog..is..not..aggresive...!

maybe i worded my original thread badly, but your saying she is aggresive- she isn't, at all! just hand shy i guess. she respects us, if you try and take a bone off er she just looks at you asif to say "hey, thats mine" then grows ever so slightly- i will video her doing it tomorrow if we have a bone lying around- and all you have to do is say "drop it" and she will let you have it (im talking about when she has it in her mouth, not next to her- she doesnt care if you take the bone from next to her, just waits for you to throw it so she can go fetch!).

 

[Malibu]

how very imature, did show thsi post to fellow breeders and my mother and i did say that you were al older people, one could not tell from such awful and shameful remarks, not to mention the typical "general" public's opinion, we get alot of peoplelike that at shows, the usal "her dog bite my childs hand" hmmm - forgot to mention my child did enter the dogs area as a stanger and tauntded dog!

hh- please dont listen to such trash talk- i have said temperment is key- many breeders dont care so much about it but WE do. The external factors are key and more so than genes unlike someone who said it def is, well well known for us"top" breeders that external factors count more.

what do we know- we are only the ones prudicing top dogs and judging internationaly!

 

[truffles]

[ QUOTE ]
makes me laugh when people talk alot of trash when they cleary have no idea what they are raving on about, shwoed this post to some people in the dogworld and they just said "amatuers"!

[/ QUOTE ]

Why on earth do you need to be so rude? It's like you're not taking this seriously!

 

[Malibu]

[ QUOTE ]
*breathes in and out slowly*

[/ QUOTE ]

i am trying to do the same hh, who are they to assume your dog is agressive. I think i have an idea of what is happpening with your dog, we have a new puppy by a new aus imort and she is more dominant than usal breeding of ours so used to do the same, so we would say no firmly, you MUST not smack or resort to physical punsihment eg smack etc, dont act timid or scared and make sure she knows who is boss-YOU!!!

try it with toys, when feeding take food away for two seconds then return and reward when good, if trying it with toys or bones, if she wont let it go, dont play tug of war , stroke her middle back area, calmy tell her good girl ad say give, mak slight eye contact and i assure you it will work but will take time, we work with animal behaviourist and that her throught s on that situation.

hh, dont listen to me, only a silly top breeder, what do i know!!

 

[Malibu]

taking it very seriously hence why i am taking such a keen interest but our kennel our deeply offeneded by such remakrs to us op breeder, i think when saying one is not taking it seriously, maybe point that to the chikden in the playground making pointless and immature remarks which are not true and spiteful

 

[truffles]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
*breathes in and out slowly*

[/ QUOTE ]

i am trying to do the same hh, who are they to assume your dog is agressive. I think i have an idea of what is happpening with your dog, we have a new puppy by a new aus imort and she is more dominant than usal breeding of ours so used to do the same, so we would say no firmly, you MUST not smack or resort to physical punsihment eg smack etc, dont act timid or scared and make sure she knows who is boss-YOU!!!

try it with toys, when feeding take food away for two seconds then return and reward when good, if trying it with toys or bones, if she wont let it go, dont play tug of war , stroke her middle back area, calmy tell her good girl ad say give, mak slight eye contact and i assure you it will work but will take time, we work with animal behaviourist and that her throught s on that situation.

hh, dont listen to me, only a silly top breeder, what do i know!!

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not doubting you as a top breeder at all, but just wondering...do you, as a breeder, take temperament into consideration at all?

 

[truffles]

[ QUOTE ]
taking it very seriously hence why i am taking such a keen interest but our kennel our deeply offeneded by such remakrs to us op breeder, i think when saying one is not taking it seriously, maybe point that to the chikden in the playground making pointless and immature remarks which are not true and spiteful

[/ QUOTE ]

Right...so saying "people talk a lot of trash" and calling people "children in the playground" and saying "no idea what they're raving on about" is mature?
No one is being spiteful, as far as I have read....

 

[Malibu]

read my posts and you will se that our kennel take temperment very seriously but if we were in hh's situation then it is no problem we believe external factors play bigger part and we are experianced so no problem hence why i asked hh if she or any family have experiance in breeding and to think hard about it . I was annoyed by remarks suggesting hh's dog as aggressive and def not to breed, i hear that some who have replied have dog experiance but i think as a breede we have alot more experiance and are used to non breeders wantign to breed for first time and usually get the usaly situation that hh is experiancing as alot of dogs can be possessive as very much to do with instinct eg out in wild, once thy get their food/bone they want to keep it and not let anyone have it

 

[Malibu]

i am not making personal comments, i merly said that i think taht the opinions and advice given is not good, i think the personal comments are child-like please dont mistake my opinions on how people spite me as spiteful

 

[truffles]

[ QUOTE ]
read my posts and you will se that our kennel take temperment very seriously but if we were in hh's situation then it is no problem we believe external factors play bigger part and we are experianced so no problem hence why i asked hh if she or any family have experiance in breeding and to think hard about it . I was annoyed by remarks suggesting hh's dog as aggressive and def not to breed, i hear that some who have replied have dog experiance but i think as a breede we have alot more experiance and are used to non breeders wantign to breed for first time and usually get the usaly situation that hh is experiancing as alot of dogs can be possessive as very much to do with instinct eg out in wild, once thy get their food/bone they want to keep it and not let anyone have it

[/ QUOTE ]

not really understanding what you mean by external factors....

[ QUOTE ]
eg out in wild, once thy get their food/bone they want to keep it and not let anyone have it

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes but it isn't in the wild, we are talking domestic households.
I hope you don't feel I am being rude by questioning all of this.

 

[CAYLA]

I am actually worried that this may be a joke on your behalf......because i can not understand what u are saying

Whats this u are all older and dont understand bit.......or at least that is what I think you said

I am only 25 would not class my self as old

As the post suggest the dog was sometimes snappy with strangers and growls whilst bearing her teeth when protecting her bone

.......correct me if I am wrong but this may have lead members to believe that the bitch was of unsound temperament

HH herself must have been concerned otherwise what was the point in the bloody post.

You state u are in contact with a behaviorist.......why? do u have problems with your own dogs I wonder

There is a behaviourist in among this post......she too has adviced HH..............

 

[truffles]

[ QUOTE ]
i am not making personal comments, i merly said that i think taht the opinions and advice given is not good, i think the personal comments are child-like please dont mistake my opinions on how people spite me as spiteful

[/ QUOTE ]

what are the personal comments that have been given...
I just don't think it is fair to shun advice that has been given - It is logical advice, that has been given by people on this forum who appear to know a lot about dogs too. You don't have to agree with it, but IMO I would've fought your corner a little more politely. Just my opinion!

 

[Malibu]

[ QUOTE ]
You state u are in contact with a behaviorist.......why? do u have problems with your own dogs I wonder

[/ QUOTE ]

thats what i mean by spiteful and personal, we are professionals so that means top of our game, we produce top dogs and majority go to pet homes all over the country including europe. We work we behaviorist as she is a good friend, trainer, we train our dogs in obediance as well, so nope no problems!

also you are all older and i am typing both my own opinions and others. I didnt expect silly ad imature comments to be made but you have provn me wrong- poor hh, all she wanted was advice and not a debate with silly and personal talk being made!

 

[Malibu]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I hope you don't feel I am being rude by questioning all of this.

[/ QUOTE ]

not at all,ask away, i apoligise if i have lowered my tone, (due to other reasons) i am only saying what i, others and breeders think and i am also taking into deep consideration what others are saying

 

[CAYLA]

I am very confused here TH........u seem to be changing your mind every 2 minutes........first u say temperament does matter then you say it does not

If you are going to give advice as a top breeder then be consistant.

I was not being spiteful when I questioned u needing a behaviourist........I was genuinly interested as to why you would need a one with your experience re-breeding......not to mention that u used this example after u stated people where being spitefull.

People are posting in regard to the general welfare of the bitch and poss off spring.....surely you can understand that.

Hopefully HH will take some of this good advice and some of the examples people have included and discuss the matter with her family in regard to breeding from her bitch.

 

[Tia]

What your little terrier is doing is by no means uncommon for the breed and I very much doubt it would put many JR puppy buyers off to be perfectly honest....particularly if you have already secured homes for the proposed puppies. All of these people know your dog and they quite obviously think she is a wonderful little dog.

I think you are looking at this very responsibly although you surely must have known before you put this post up, that on HHO if you ask should you breed a dog...the answer will categorically ALWAYS be no!

I do agree, generally with the comments made on here and am not an advocate of breeding indescriminately, however I don't think you will have any unsurmountable problems with the breeding of Daisy. Don't forget that Daisy is only one half of the offspring though, so using a dog of sound temperament and standing should be classed as just as important.

One of my dogs comes from a nervous bitch and the "most aggressive dog in the area" apparently...... well, she is devine. She has always been devine. She has the most fantastic nature and is super-friendly to everyone who comes to our farm. She is a big black shepherd dog and she does look incredibly scary; but never once has she done anything wrong or acted in an inappropriate manner towards any other dogs, children or adults. She is a wonderfully friendly dog.

I am also of the mindset that external factors play a huge role (if not the greatest role) in the upbringing of a good and decent dog.

 

[MiLisCer]

@ Top Horse - The dog world is a very small place - at the risk of upsetting CALA (again - sorry)

You must be Michelle McAngus from REDFURS VIZSLAS - the only junior handler to have done well in Scotland recently - with REDFURS PRINCE CHARMING - and your G'Mother with GREYFURS Weims - enough said. (The rest of you google them!)

As for you saying JJ4Y doesn't have breeding experience - have you actually read her post?

If you don't understand it, maybe you could ask her to explain what she does for Guide Dogs at their breeding centre.

In company with me she also runs a professional gundog kennel.

The judging world is a very small place.

Oh and please take a little time over your sentence structure and grammar (Sorry Cala! )

Mike

 

[milor]

"but i am tryign to say that in the show world, BREED STANDARDS dont really matter, "


.....Hmmm .....this seems a very strange comment for someone who is a 'top breeder' to make ....the whole point and purpose to the showing game is to produce dogs that fit as closely as possible to the breed's 'blueprint' i.e the breed standard.

I too have a succesful show kennel ( of Belgian Shepherd Dogs ) ..I have bred Champions owned by myself and by others in the breed ...I also give tickets for my breed and for others in the Pastoral Group. It has taken me over 20 years of careful breeding to produce consistently good dogs and I can tell you that no matter how beautiful a dog is I will not use it in my breeding programme unless it has a good temperament. On the continent breeders most certainly DO take temperament into account and dogs have to have passed a temperament test before becoming a 'sujet recommende' for breeding ( most of my lines are French/Belgian ).


Given the current anti dog climate it seems to me irresponsible at the very least to suggest that temperament is not genetically influenced and that dogs with poor characters can be bred from ( and I am not suggesting that the original poster's dog is of bad temperament - just responding to some of Top horse's remarks).
Whilst upbringing can of course greatly affect how a dog behaves it cannot eradicate inherited weaknesses, both physically or mentally - aggression/nervousness is inheritable in many cases and should always be avoided when planning to breed.

Tia you are right that anyone on here looking for the go ahead to breed from their pet bitch will always get a red light from many of us - this is because most rescue kennels are stuffed to the roof with the fallout of such matings ...

.
.P.S. lovely to hear about your Mals fantastic nature -...reckon that's the Groenendael influence coming out

)

 

[jj4y]

Tophorse - the big problem here is that you are being so inconsistent. Initially you say that temperament of breeding stock is NOT important and is of no consideration. Then as soon as this is pointed out as being a careless attitude to take in breeding dogs you change your mind and say that temperament IS important to you. If your attitude to breeding is supposedly the same as the majority of 'top breeders' then I can categorically say that I would never again buy a puppy from show lines, as the temperament of my pup's parents are of GREAT IMPORTANCE to me. However, I would highly doubt that this is the attitude in the majority of breeders as you state...I do know several show breeders, and they breed for type and temperament. If a dog is unsound it is not bred from...at the end of the day it is also their reputation at stake.

HH - yes it does sound, as Tia says, as though your dog is showing traits which aren't uncommon in the breed. But as i've stated before, there are plenty of JRs out there which don't show these traits...these are more likely the better dogs to breed from. Not all owners can cope with their dog showing even the slightest signs of aggression and problems quickly escalate. Aggressive behaviours are highly rewarding to the dog so the more they are performed the more the dog will perform them in the future. To an inexperienced dog owner who does not know how to deal with these situations the situation is often frightening, and they can end up resenting their dog. To many dogs end up PTS or in rescues because their owners cannot cope with their behaviour.

 

[CAYLA]

Not at all (Mike) like I stated in one of my threads I had a little trouble understanding it myself

LOL

I just phrased it in a polite manor(just as u did today) have no doubt you are a very experienced dog handler/trainer its just u seem a little tempered at times in your text,

By-gons and all that

Look forward to seeing somemore posts from u

 

[Malibu]

ok maybe the way i am phrasing thigs is confusing alot of you- when i say breed standards are not as important- not nearly important, well that is because if your dog has poor angulation, too long in length, poor type head etc, if you have a face showing it- it will win, this is a proven statement and known throughout the international dog world. So i stand by what i say in that beed standards are there for a reason- the majority dont fit the breed which is why some get thrown out of the class, but alot dont fit at all but win because the handler sleeps with the judge or the handler drove up with the judge to the show of the judge owes that handler for givng the judge the cc last week at what ever champ show.

I have neevr owned, part owned, shown a dog with what one would call re well one thinkingaggressive, i have shown dogs that will snap at other dogs, growl over bones etc and its not a big deal, temperment is iportant and when i say alot of breeders dont care well once thinking about it they dont really have to as like i said most a

e kennel dogs, dont socialise greatly with kids etc, and none are given the chance to really show their temperment.

 

[milor]

".....when i say breed standards are not as important- not nearly important, well that is because if your dog has poor angulation, too long in length, poor type head etc, if you have a face showing it- it will win, this is a proven statement and known throughout the international dog world. .........- the majority dont fit the breed which is why some get thrown out of the class, but alot dont fit at all but win because the handler sleeps with the judge ........"

....what IS all this gobbledygook about ....??????

 

[CAYLA]

LOL

sleepnig with judge

LOL

 

[echodomino]

OK, I've resisted from posting this long lol

I am 20yrs old, I've had dogs all my life. My mum and I breed HWVs successfully, have had a Sh Ch GWP and if our breed had tickets we'd have 3 if not 4 Sh Chs in the HWV.

Over a 14yr period we've had 8 litters of HWV and 2 litters of JRs with 1 due in a fortnight. But I'm still young so no matter how much experience I have of breeding and showing I still need to listen and learn.

Whether or not you agree with the other person or not is another thing but telling everyone they're talking trash is just plain rude. I've been told that I would make a good professional handler but at the same time that doesn't mean I cannot improve.

Maybe it's just the way some threads are read

To me it doesn't sound like this bitch has an unsound temperament. My Millie can be a bit sharp sometimes but she knows her place and who's boss and she isn't in the slightest a nasty dog at all, infact quite the opposite - such a snuggly girl!!! I wouldn't have had the 2 litters I've had from her if I thought she was unsound and aggressive. I have had no problems with her or her puppies and she too is territorial.
I've got a bitch from Millie's 1st litter and a dog from her 2nd, the dog's been used and Mouse is 2 weeks off having a litter - they have superb temperaments.

I think that there's a difference in Millie now that she has had pups, she's even more laid back. Though obviously this isn't going to be the case for every bitch, you aren't going to know for sure what she'll be like until you breed from her. That's something you will have to take into consideration before going ahead with it.

If you are certain that you can find excellent, permanent homes then I don't think there is a problem with breeding from her, but that is just my opinion and I know that not everybody will agree with me. You also need to make sure that if you do go ahead with it that you can take puppies back should anything go wrong. I drum it in to my puppy homes before I sell that I will have pup back be it 12 weeks, 12 months or 12yrs - basically any time for whatever reason and this is also in the contract of sale that my mum has for her litters.

If I were you I would take into consideration everything that everyone has said and make your own mind up - it isn't something you can let someone else decide for you. I agree that temperament is a vital thing to consider when breeding, no matter what type of kennel you have. You can breed out conformation faults (well minor ones) easier than you can breed out bad tempers - not saying Daisy is bad tempered though.

Have you got a breeder near you that you can ring up and talk to? Perhaps even the breeder you got Daisy from? I would suggest that if you are unsure find a breeder of JRTs or go back to your own breeder, a good one will always be there for you for help and advice on everything.

Hope no one shoots me for this

 

[CAYLA]

Avery sensible and mature reply.............I dont think anyone will shoot u down at all

I also agree telling people they are talking trash is not a good way to get your point across........you sound like a sensible breeder

You also mentioned the willing to take back subject......which I agree too............that way there is less chance the pups end up in our ever expanding rescue societies at some stage

however this can in no way be enforced even with a contract

HH will inevitably make up her own mind..........and as any good breeder...............will have alot of planning and decisions to make............but has been given some great advice in this post

HH if u do decide to go ahead.....good luck and
Dont forget to put that all important emergency vet treatment money to one side..........as any arising problems esp a C-section will cost a small ransom

 

[echodomino]

Thank you CALA

I know it's not really enforce-able but it has worked in our case. I've only had on back and that's my Mouse (the one who's in whelp) the lady had her and her sister and along with personal things it wasn't working out so I had one back and she sort of stopped

and makes a fab agility dog

Not sure I'll sell 2 to one home again. That's something else to consider

lol

Good luck with whatever your decision HH


Ooo CALA, vets at 1 in the morning because your bitch is trying to pass 2 pups (well sacks, apparently there's a waste sack in with pup and that was coming first) at the same time also costs

 

[severnmiles]

[ QUOTE ]
as any arising problems esp a C-section will cost a small ransom

[/ QUOTE ]

They're about a grand now aren't they!