Heart bar shoes and he feels even worse!

[Hormonal Filly]

My gelding blocked positive to a nerve block a couple of weeks ago, x-rays showed sidebone, ringtone and arthritis of the coffin joint but all was 50% worse on one foot than the other especially the side bone which the vet is concerned about. We think its all due to poor foot balance, as he has crappy feet and low heels.

Hes had heart bar shoes on just over 10 days. Hes tripping more, or should I say 'falling in a hole' feeling in front a lot more. He always struggled down hills especially stony hills but hes no better. Vet is coming back to inject coffin joints with a type of gel (?!) which isn't cheap but hopefully might help.

Horse is 8 and has so many issues behind, as well as now in front. Has anyone else had luck with coffin joint injections?

 

[ester]

Temporary improvement from them, not sustained once we got to 'normal hacking' level of work, in bar shoes at the time too.
IIRC we had to do the joint nerve block at a different time do when we did the back of the hoof block.
Shoes came off, horse still sound for the last 8 years (well on the front bits, the hinds are arthriticy at 27). No sidebone/ringbone though.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Thank you Ester.

Shoes came off, horse still sound for the last 8 years

Was horse in hoof boots? Mine couldn't even be barefoot while he was on box rest, and he was very calm.. just because his feet are that poor. The vet and farrier (supports barefoot) worked together and said he wouldn't do well without shoes

 

[Tiddlypom]

Horse is 8 and has so many issues behind, as well as now in front. Has anyone else had luck with coffin joint injections?

Mine is 9 and the Arthrimed coffin joint injections in both fronts have definitely helped. She has a multitude of issues too, starting with poor foot balance.

Is still turned out part time in hoof boots, sometimes without.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Is still turned out part time in hoof boots, sometimes without.

Oh great, thank you. How is she doing now barefoot? I know he'd have to live in hoof boots but good yours keeps them on in the field, being the track to the field is stony and when I turned him away for 8 weeks in the field his feet disappeared then. He has no heel, so would probably take a while for the hoof to grow?

 

[IrishMilo]

Vet is coming back to inject coffin joints with a type of gel (?!) which isn't cheap but hopefully might help

Think these are the hyaluronic acid ones which lubricate the joint. Vet said they work very well. I'll be going for these too (in the hocks) although I think they're the most expensive of the options!

 

[ester]

Thank you Ester.

Was horse in hoof boots? Mine couldn't even be barefoot while he was on box rest, and he was very calm.. just because his feet are that poor. The vet and farrier (supports barefoot) worked together and said he wouldn't do well without shoes

Due to his negative/flat palmar angle he had pretty flat soles. 6 weeks post de-shoeing he went pretty sore and was booted in front for all road work after that (was ok on grass but we did have a particularly wet summer that year). Improved over time and was then rarely booted but was never rock crunching (but enough to hunt over whatever we came across).

For some reason I missed it was gel instead of steroid injection.

If he continues to deteriorate in the bar shoes I wouldn't keep them on as they are obviously having a non-beneficial impact.

If he does need to be shod though maybe? http://www.equinefootclinic.co.uk/EFC_Pad.html

The thing that would worry me with regards to any major change is he is quite broken in quite a few places and if he is sore without shoes then you do risk them moving differently and then aggravating all those other places during transition. Though I am sure the end result would be helpful to him.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Oh great, thank you. How is she doing now barefoot? I know he'd have to live in hoof boots but good yours keeps them on in the field, being the track to the field is stony and when I turned him away for 8 weeks in the field his feet disappeared then. He has no heel, so would probably take a while for the hoof to grow?

She still needs her boots on after she’s been trimmed, but then not. Vet agrees she moves well in boots! She’s also just had her SI joints medicated with steroid and her hocks with Arthrimed, though the canter pic was taken before that.

Her hoof balance pics are on the Hoof Transformation thread.

The more joints and bits and pieces that need medicating, the more uncertain the outcome, but I’m not going give up on my homebred mare without a fight.

Good luck.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

The thing that would worry me with regards to any major change is he is quite broken in quite a few places and if he is sore without shoes then you do risk them moving differently and then aggravating all those other places during transition. Though I am sure the end result would be helpful to him.

Interesting about the pads.. maybe worth looking into., He isn't perfect across his entire body lets be honest. His muscle enzymes aren't right, even though on everything I can give for his muscles and no explanation without a muscle biopsy which I don't really want to do now. The nerve block showed he was a lot happier after it, so I don't think his muscles are as 'big' a issue as his feet. His heels are so low they're almost non existent.

Her hoof balance pics are on the Hoof Transformation thread.

The more joints and bits and pieces that need medicating, the more uncertain the outcome, but I’m not going give up on my homebred mare without a fight.

I'll look at her hoof photos, be interesting to see! I think the more you dig.. the more issues you find I really hope she comes right. I've said goodbye to 3 horses before the age of their 10th birthday I've owned. I think I just have a black cloud above me and no luck at all!

 

[ester]

Our heels were more under run than low, they looked better after 2 cycles of bar shoes but I think only on the outside if that makes sense. (IHW used the pads on one that struggled with no shoes at all, worth a chat with farrier at least).
You've not had much luck recently have you .

 

[Hormonal Filly]

You've not had much luck recently have you .

Not quite sure what I do or where I go wrong, a friend was only saying yesterday how well looked after he is. Just luck sometimes I think. x

 

[ester]

It really is, we've said many a time over the years how lucky we have been with our own two.

 

[sbloom]

YOu have some complex issues there so I'd not want to comment directly but there are PLENTY of horses doing brilliantly barefoot where vet and farrier had said no way could they cope. I would read and read and read, look at people like Mark Johnson Farrier - Another Way? (or similar on FB) as well as lots of purely barefoot sources such as Rockley Farm, and talk to these real experts. You need someone who follows a paradigm that has shown success for similar conditions, traditional remedial farriery so often seems to just slow decline, and not always by that much.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

I will have a read into it all, its such a mind field

Following on, spoken to the vet who wants to get the farrier back out and try pads to see if that helps. He really thinks its the feet that are the majority of the issue (being so low on the heels) specially as things have got worse after being shod although you'd expect the heel support to help.

 

[sbloom]

But it's not really support, it's a fundamentally different way of looking at the hoof, it spreads the weight a little further in some cases, but if the frogs had been weight bearing to begin with, as they should be...they do help with acute lammi I think but otherwise true support comes from inside the hoof only, and otherwise you're looking at protection and cushioning, or you're getting into devices which cause their own issues, wedges crushing the heels, pads potentially causing sole hoof issues (I am not an expert at all, but some can definitely cause thrush etc). You need to look at why these issues have happened and fix the causes (as I'm sure you're realising). Pads just provide some cushioning but they come with metal shoes...there may be a better way.

 

[ycbm]

I will have a read into it all, its such a mind field

Following on, spoken to the vet who wants to get the farrier back out and try pads to see if that helps. He really thinks its the feet that are the majority of the issue (being so low on the heels) specially as things have got worse after being shod although you'd expect the heel support to help.

I never understand why shoes are considered "support". What is more supportive about the heels being sat on a bit of metal than being sat on the ground? In heart bars, exactly the same area of foot is in contact with a hard surface.

 

[SEL]

Not quite sure what I do or where I go wrong, a friend was only saying yesterday how well looked after he is. Just luck sometimes I think. x

I think some of us just attract horses which need our help ? Just wish that didn't come with ££ vet bills.

The heart bars are probably not supporting in the right place. I used to know a really good remedial farrier who said even when he put them on in line with x rays the horses didn't always agree.

A friend has thick felt inside boots for a lami rehab right now - would something like that help? The felt came from Amazon and is really supportive.

 

[Tiddlypom]

My vets wanted my mare (the one who has previously had poor farriery and poor barefoot trimming) in bar shoes. Mare has thin soles and weak heels.

My red line on pasture ornaments (though we are hoping for much better than that) is that the pasture ornament must not need remedial shoeing to stay field sound.

I cannot see why sturdy hoof boots like the treks, with their thick soles, offer any less protection than bar shoes.

Mare is currently in at night without boots, and out in the day sometimes with, sometimes without boots. I handed mare over in the car park at the vets complete with hoof boots for her latest soundness check two weeks ago, and vet agrees that she moves well in and out of them even on the hard. Meanwhile, all the time, her heels and frogs are strengthening, which they wouldn’t do in shoes.

 

[Michen]

I honestly don’t think my boy would be sound in front if I hadn’t taken a somewhat holistic view of how we manage his feet. He was diagnosed via MRI as a 5yo with bruising in his feet. We’ve always struggled to get him to land level on his right fore. Although he’s always passed every hard circle test pretty much- vet said you could argue there was “something” on the right fore but he feels he’s just looking for it more than anything because we know about the inbalance.

I have managed him by having him barefoot for periods when possible, allowing him to wear his own feet naturally. This doesn’t mean he always wears them in a perfect shape but it does mean he lands level. We then shoe to the shape he’s created for himself. Sounds a bit whacky but it seems to work for him, but I could never get him comfortable enough on all surfaces to hunt/event and not shoe.

In your situation with a horse that is so sore without them I’d certainly be taking them off but booting and padding 24/7 if necessary (have done this before with a TB). Sounds like those feet are begging to be out of shoes and id see what they want to do naturally.. it may surprise you.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

I never understand why shoes are considered "support". What is more supportive about the heels being sat on a bit of metal than being sat on the ground? In heart bars, exactly the same area of foot is in contact with a hard surface.

I really don't know, I don't know a lot about feet The vet said heart bars will put the pressure up through the frog, and take the pressure away from the sore areas? I have no idea. Hes been shod since a 4yr old as his feet just disappeared with 2 short hacks a week and we took them off for his operation in 2019 but on box rest his feet just crumbled.

Thanks all for your replies, so appreciated! My vet wanted me to ride in the arena so last night to see how he went... rode in the new bit (of which hes been in 3 weeks, and prior to shoeing was ridden in it a handful of times and went absolutely lovely!) but he went awful. Didn't want to go forward, when he did he wanted his head and didn't want a contact which is very unlike him. Hes quite nicely schooled! I gave up, he was also 'stepping in holes' a lot in the arena when its totally flat. I switched to his old bit this morning and took him in the arena for 10 minutes this morning, he was very much the same. Didn't want to go forward, when he did he didn't want the contact and wanted his head. He did get his reins stuck in a gate on Monday, they snapped straight away and he was unphased in all honesty but can't tell if its bruised his tongue.

He didn't trip or 'step in holes' as much today but just doesn't feel himself. He always goes SO lovely in the arena, so something isn't right..

Is going barefoot worth mentioning to my vet? I mean the farrier pulled his toes back so much, his feet definitely don't look quite right as they're so 'small'.. although I honestly think he'd rip his own hoof boots off himself, I had to put knee boots on him for a week when he fell over a few months back and he ripped off 2 boots off breaking them so ended up leaving the knee to heel naturally, grrrr. We have such stony hard ground on my yard and hacking by us

 

[Michen]

I really don't know, I don't know a lot about feet The vet said heart bars will put the pressure up through the frog, and take the pressure away from the sore areas? I have no idea. Hes been shod since a 4yr old as his feet just disappeared with 2 short hacks a week and we took them off for his operation in 2019 but on box rest his feet just crumbled.

Thanks all for your replies, so appreciated! My vet wanted me to ride in the arena so last night to see how he went... rode in the new bit (of which hes been in 3 weeks, and prior to shoeing was ridden in it a handful of times and went absolutely lovely!) but he went awful. Didn't want to go forward, when he did he wanted his head and didn't want a contact which is very unlike him. Hes quite nicely schooled! I gave up, he was also 'stepping in holes' a lot in the arena when its totally flat. I switched to his old bit this morning and took him in the arena for 10 minutes this morning, he was very much the same. Didn't want to go forward, when he did he didn't want the contact and wanted his head. He did get his reins stuck in a gate on Monday, they snapped straight away and he was unphased in all honesty but can't tell if its bruised his tongue.

He didn't trip or 'step in holes' as much today but just doesn't feel himself. He always goes SO lovely in the arena, so something isn't right..

Is going barefoot worth mentioning to my vet? I mean the farrier pulled his toes back so much, his feet definitely don't look quite right as they're so 'small'.. although I honestly think he'd rip his own hoof boots off himself, I had to put knee boots on him for a week when he fell over a few months back and he ripped off 2 boots off breaking them so ended up leaving the knee to heel naturally, grrrr. We have such stony hard ground on my yard and hacking by us

Cribbox on the boots if needed. At this point it sounds very much like your best option and potentially your only one if he’s at the stage of being this uncomfortable.
I totally feel your pain re hard ground on yard etc but the only solution to that is to boot to get to and from the field. And in the field too if you need to. You could also consider turning him away for a month or two, letting the feet harden up a little before bringing him back to the yard

 

[Hormonal Filly]

In your situation with a horse that is so sore without them I’d certainly be taking them off but booting and padding 24/7 if necessary (have done this before with a TB). Sounds like those feet are begging to be out of shoes and id see what they want to do naturally.. it may surprise you.

Which boots do you use? I better call my vet first before taking his shoes off.. don't want to make him even worse.

 

[Michen]

Which boots do you use? I better call my vet first before taking his shoes off.. don't want to make him even worse.

I used cavallos and old macs on a rehab horse as they are forgiving and thick soled. I use scoots for riding in for my current barefoot horse (though he doesn’t need them atm). Not recommended for transitioning feet though!

 

[Tiddlypom]

Vet will almost certainly say that your horse will be crippled without shoes, which is likely to be true, unless the horse is padded and/or booted.

The boots that mine is wearing in the canter pic above are Cavallo Treks, which are a forgiving fit.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Vet will almost certainly say that your horse will be crippled without shoes, which is likely to be true, unless the horse is padded and/or booted.

I don't feel like I can go ahead and take shoes off without consulting him, isn't it such a huge risk?

 

[Michen]

I don't feel like I can go ahead and take shoes off without consulting him, isn't it such a huge risk?

Honestly I think you should do more reading. Because if you do you will feel more confident in your decision. And you will need that confidence because taking the shoes off can be really mentally tough and draining and you’ll need to feel 100% that you are doing the right thing. Look up groups on Facebook, read the rockey blog- in fact read their book feet first...

I say this as someone who shoes for convenience so I’m not a die hard barefooter but IMO in situations like yours there’s not many other long term options.

 

[ester]

It very much depends on vets, my own was fine for me to try it but pretty much said I've not seen it done for this issue (he had sent a couple with navicular diagnoses to rockley) but if you want to crack on.

If mine was how you are describing your boy I'd be having the bar shoes off asap, it seems they are likely putting pressure on where he cannot cope with pressure. IE putting pressure on the frog way before it is ready too - often additional bar growth is because the frog just isn't up to it yet.
I will also add that despite regular picking out and thrush treatments bar shoes destroyed Frank's frogs in the 12 weeks he had them on.

The theory is fine re. getting more structures to take pressure but it's no good if those structures cannot tolerate it.

 

[Regandal]

I used RX therapy boots with garden kneeling pads cut up for a very sore horse. Fabulous boots, they can be turned out in them but not for ridden work. Equine fusion jogging boots are also soft, easy to get on and you can ride in them.

 

[sbloom]

Definitely read more, it's complex, a few points had already been made that you're still asking about which is understandable, it's a minefield (eg go back to my post talking about support). If you can find a way to take a little time, make him as comfy as possible, consult with maybe Rockley and/or a highly recommended local trimmer, and go back to the vet with a read-to-be-argued proposal in case they are very anti, which is likely. Vets have worked with farriers since time immemorial, they are familiar with remedial shoeing, surgery and drugs. They are not familiar with taking shoes off, addressing diet, using hoof boots, and when you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail. You need people that completely believe in the treatment, that will look as to why it's not working, just resort to shoes at the first sign of trouble, simply putting band aids back on in so many cases. Go back through all the links, FB pages, websites etc that everyone has suggested and go from there.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Will definitely do that @sbloom, I didn't quite realise how much of a mind field it is.. I'll go back and have a read through and do some digging.

Hes never had great feet, almost TB like but shoes have always been recommended by every vet and my farrier so we've always gone to that. I didn't quite realise how much worse he'd be in heart bar shoes, both told me he'd be so much better and happier. Was a total waste of £140!