Hector's pathetic excuse for dumping me at Isleham....

Oh crap, that is rubbish news for you and Hector
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But, fingers crossed that the KS are not too bad and injections/therapy works. My vet swears by shockwave for KS, don't know if this was mentioned to you?

Sintigraphy is a tricky diagnosis tool because it shows so much, and you never know whether the "hot spots" are actually clinically significant or not. Any working horse of a certain age will have hot spots, but sintigraphy doesn't allow for interpretation of whether they are actually active problems or not.

Fingers crossed for Hector, and for your healing bones.
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Really sorry to hear this Baydale.

I can't help with the impact of the hock/sidebone but I can give you my experiences with Kissing Spine.

My now 11yo underwent KS surgery last June. With him the KS was severe, so surgery was the only feasible option for him. He was never what I thought of as being a typical KS horse (had never bucked/stopped/napped etc, EVER) so it was a bit of a surprise that his back was in such a state. He was intermittently very mildly lame behind behind, and had a few other niggles that I had assumed were schooling issues; e.g. I couldn't keep him through in the canter-trot/walk transitions. He had intensive physio to help with his recovery from surgery, and it's been a long road - he went very lame again at xmas and turned out to have issues with his n/h pedal bone as well - but I would say he is now a lot better than he was before and all his niggles have dissolved.

My 6yo was diagnosed with KS, and she was bucking, bronking, unable to canter etc etc. I didn't want to go through surgery as in my heart of hearts I knew it wasn't 'just' KS that was the issue. I was offered 'Mesotherapy' for her, which is where they inject the whole thoracic and lumbar region with a cocktail of steroids, analgesics etc through 100's of tiny, tiny little fine (hair thickness) needles. Apparently it is not painful and the effects take place within around 4 hours and can last between a few months to a year or more. It is better than localised steroid injections as it reduces pain/inflammation in all of the back muscles/ligaments/joints. Mesotherapy is used quite widely on the continent, and so far has made it over to Ireland, where they use it a lot on the racehorses, and I think 3 practices in the UK offer it currently.
I continued investigations into the 6yo before I started KS treatment, and she was found to be a Wobbler, so was PTS, whcih means I don't have personal experience of the mesotherapy, but did look into it a lot and it would have been the route I had gone down with her, for what it's worth.

If you want the name and number of the vet that was treating her so that you can chat to him about mesotherapy then PM me, or if you want anything else at all.
 
Starbucks' comments have really rattled me.
Having had the privilege of riding this horse a few times, I'll say that the more you ask, the more he gives. He is totally straightforward, honest, and generous. I can't say that about a lot of horses i've ridden! Nicky knows him better than anyone, and it wasn't exactly his first time faced with a big trak! With the benefit of hindsight, she has said to me that he was slightly hesitant at the first few fences that had drops. (Easy to discount at the time while riding round and processing 100 different thoughts - he'd SJed brilliantly, it was his first event for ages, the ground wasn't nice at all, was that what he didn't like, what's coming up, etc etc.)
he was supposed to be doing a few OIs and then As and a 3* afaik. therefore he needed to be absolutely 100% spot on. For him to have done what he did at Isleham was totally totally out of character. Because he's so straightforward and generous, and well ridden, he'd been doing his best up till then, and it was fine.
I don't know what I'm trying to get at here, but to say that it looks as if
"it seems that if any horse has a stop nowadays then it gets sent of the some vet who comes up with this that and the other wrong with it. I doubt any horse whould be sound with these people!
I'm glad you are keeping him going, but I do sometimes think it's a bit of an excuse?"
really annoys me. If the horse is being ridden by a muppet, or has a silly stop, that's one thing, but when a really good scopey honest experienced horse being ridden by someone accurate and also experienced has a totally-out-of-the-blue crunch, surely we owe it to the horse to try to find a reason? not an excuse, a reason. and fwiw, i don't think most people do a full investigation on their horse just because of 1 stop or 2!!
(a horse of mine turned out to have very minor damage to a check ligament on 1 foreleg, and the suspensory and sdft on the other. the reason i had the work-up done? she was totally sound, but was changing legs before fences on the xc at 2*. she hadn't stopped once. (yet) she'd gone clear. BUT, i knew her, and i knew there had to be a reason. thank god i found out - if i'd carried on blithely, she'd probably have broken down completely.)

Anyway, poor Hector, but at least the reason's been found. I really really hope the injections put him right.
 
thanks wizoz! i was a bit ashamed of going off on one, and thought twice before posting it, because i know Starbucks said it wasn't aimed at N & Hector, but, but... i think it's really important that a big solid Reason has been found for what happened.
 
Im sorry
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Don't want to sound disheartening but we had a beautiful horse whos sire (or GS I can't remember!) was Dutch Gold, truely lovely horse, and he had KS and was PTS
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Starbucks - are you saying that when a proven competition horse (that has no history of stopping, napping, bucking etc) has an accident like this that he shouldn't be given a thorough work-up? Apart from the fact that there had to be a reason for this to have happened given this horse was jumping at a level he was happy at and that was well within his capabilities, he had a nasty fall that day and may have damaged himself. I am amazed that you are questioning this decision to be honest!
The reason more physical problems are being diagnosed is because research and diagnostic tools have improved so much - surely this is a good thing?

BD - Poor Hector - he is unbelievably genuine and it is humbling really isn't it when you think what these horses do for us. When will he be allowed home? I don't know much about KS apart from the fact it used to mean retirement, but these days the vets can do so much more to treat.

I think when he has had his treatment he should have a gentle trot round an Intro and I know just the person
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Hugs
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Hector's a lucky boy he has an owner who knows him well enough to pick up on something which some riders would have punished him for. What a star to keep going & try for you. I really hope everything turns out for the best, though can't offer any useful comments really, no relevant experience.
 
All I can say N is im so so sorry
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Im glad you have a reason now as it was so out of character but you must be gutted, hopefully you now have all your bad luck out the way now and the injections help x
 
So sorry to hear this news, but relieved that you have a reason for his uncharacteristic incident.

Totally agree with Kerilli, well said and thank you for saying it, I wanted to but couldn't put the words together!
 
Kerilli, I completely agree with what you're saying about knowing your horse through and through and in this case, unquestionably justified to have a full work up done by very experienced vets who know what they're about.

In Starbucks defense, I think she is referring to less advanced less experienced competition horses who maybe have the less advanced less experienced rider off at a spooky fence, and then get taken to the vets for a full work up in which many things are discovered radiologically, when perhaps a decent session with a trainer might have been more appropriate.

I'm not saying that these horses don't benefit from a work-up, nor am I saying ignore a persistent minor ailment in the hope that it will go away. I'm just saying that vets are paid to find out what's wrong so that's what they do. And cynical though this may be, having had a vet father whose practice owner consistently pushed him to do more investigations and treatments so the practice made more money
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I am always wary of handing a vet a blank cheque as it were.

Yes, you need a very tough very sound horse for 4* level eventing. But I think what SB is trying to say is that one stop at Intro level should not necessarily constitute a total write off of horse..

PS. Nobody eat me alive here, I'm just trying to show the other point of view.
 
Beautifully put!
Sorry if I've over posted on this, but its just something that gets to me and I think I've *finally* learnt my lesson!

I took a very genuine pony (the one in my vid a few days ago) to the pc champs having never had a history of being hesitant xc, but he gave me an awful ride- never stopped at one fence but just didnt feel right and I took some alternatives... with hindsight I wished I had pulled him up after the 3rd fence
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got him back to the lorry- had a MASSIVE domestic with the mother who told me off for riding backwards and defensively and not attacking the course... culminated in me saying "I dont want to sj him, there's something wrong" "well prove it" and honest to god, when he trotted up he was crippled... turns out he had struck himself in the stable rolling bambi on ice style!
And Arth at Salperton when I pulled him up at fence 5, he hadn't stopped, he just didn't feel right, difficult to turn, hitting fences and instead of launching off a drop he sort of dribbled down in half heartedly... again cue domestic with mother because "I don't want to do it obviously, there was nothing wrong with the horse he looked fine from the ground etc etc", had him blood tested and CK readings and white blood cells were all to hell!
And my judgement is most definitely clouded by the mare- I can't count on one hand the amount of times I've been in the top 3 heading to XC, and Ive actually got her round after her napping... yes it did look to everyone like she was just being cowbag mare- but there was no denying she was lame at the first assessment!
Yes I have had a few who have pratted around and stopped and just been ungenuine, and they've come through it with persevering... but most riders who know their horse well enough know the difference, just know... I wish I had trusted my instinct and pulled poor old J up at the pc champs, and I feel that I did the right thing at Salperton with Arth... I just wish again I had been brave enough to stand up to everyone who was telling me it was me with the mare sooner!
Its an interesting one, of course if you pay vets to find something they inevitably will- how many horses are there without any damage at all?? But its coinciding it and weighing up the chances that that is what's wrong with them
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I had interesting chat to farrier at Beaver Hall the other day and he said recently there has been alot of connection between showing and kissing spine and how corrective shoeing can help, might be worth looking into.
As you said you thought there must have been something a miss, but he is amzing to have kept going when it must have hurt, at least now you know and can react accordingly.
 
Oh hell Nicky

Bollocks, pi22ing, poo.

I never imagined that this would be the out come, ever.

Poor Hector & even more poor you.

You have been so diligent with H (well all your horses).

A horse that gave you so much back when ever you asked of him.

I remember trying to sit to his incredible trot, with you instructing (read shouting! LOL
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I'm so shocked & lost for words (yes me lost for words)!

I am gutted so I can not imagine how you are feeling at teh moment especially with everything else.

Gentle huggles
 
I guess for me the deal is this - if the horse is performing happily then regardless of what a workup may show, it probably isn't clinically affecting the horse at that stage of its career. That is not to say it won't in the future, but at that point the horse is ok with whatever is going on.

If the horse shows issues of whatever kind, then anything shown on a workup is having an effect on performance.

I wish I'd stuck to my guns last year when I had the vet out the first time way back before the ulcers started having the massive effect they did on my horse's performance. But I didn't so the poor devil spent the summer being messed about.

Hector is lucky to have such an owner.
 
So sorry N. Hector and you do not deserve this at all.

I have little experience with KS, but I know of a horse for sale wh had an operation last year, and the owners said it made no difference in her peformance and wouldn't effect her at all....

I just want to add to this rant: much like LPP I had some sh**e runs last year, all went well, we had a DC at our 2nd JRN, then disaster-PB in dressage, then 24 faults SJ and R3 XC. This was totally out of character, but oh no 'well he was fine in the dressage, so its your fault' was the response I got, had back etc tested, fine. Week later another bad day and yet again I was blamed, no chance of checking bloods etc. End of the season he gets better, then lymphengitus comes on and he also, we think did a tendon, which was there all 2nd half and the poor by kept going for me.

I regret SOOOO much not getting him sorted, he was not himself and I carried on.
 
Oh my goodness, I hadn't foreseen that this might evolve into a controversial post - that's so not my style.
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I understand what Starbucks was trying to put across, but anyone that knows me with Hector would appreciate how well I know him, and whilst I've had some "square peg, round hole" thoughts about him over the years, we seemed to be on the right track and progressing harmoniously, albeit with a few hiccups.

As rollin said, thank god the eighth of him that's Cleveland Bay doesn't seem to conform to most people's ideas of what CBs are like.
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Interestingly the only changes they suggested re shoeing were a wider web shoe, to try and spread the load a bit. I'm guessing that they perceive the KS issue to be more of a contributory factor in his loss of performance than his feet, hence why they're treating that first.

Anyway, thanks for all your thoughts and kind words (maybe with the exception of jules89's about the horse with KS being put down
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) and I shall be busy pm-ing people later today. Also, I'm thinking of selling him via sealed bids
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, so those that have so far offered me their loose change/chocolate/alcohol (am I that easy?) had better be prepared to put their money (choccy, booze) where their mouth is.

We're picking him up tomorrow, so I'll report back on how he is once I've popped him over a few 1.30m fences and done some two time changes.....
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Baydale, I've been thinking about how I managed my horse before he had his KS operation and I've also had horses with problematic feet and arthrtic hocks. There's loads that you can do to manage the various problems, Here are a few suggestions, you never know- he may start to feel a lot more comfortable with a few basic changes and he may be back doing OI's again!

So anyway, I would do-obv I dont know the ins and outs, but this is a basic list


-Improving the shoeing- shortening the toes, improving the heels, improving heel balance.This is sooo important, even if you think the feet are ok, how much could they be improved by??


- Regular H wave therapy
-Changing to flocked saddles/serge panel saddles to imrpove comfort in the back
-Cortavet/ vet strength joint supplement
-Massage machine daily
- the bear minimum of work in the school, do all fittening work out hacking ( long, long walks and slow trots on grass) Only work in the school twice a week. Horses with soundness issues have evented at 4 star level doing this sort of work program.
-6 monthly cortisone injections into back and hock.

I do think that a lot of top horses have to be managed as above to keep on top of their various issues,which, lets face it, a lot of them ineviteably have ( we just dont hear about it) so that they can keep performing at top level. I know that the vet is obviously saying NO to Hector ever doing OI's again- but surely his career worth another go to see how he feels once more comfortable.

Anyway, just a few suggestions.
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If you'd ever seen me run you'd realise why that comment is so funny to me. Swimming is the way ahead, or so my physio says.
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mmmm, can't wait to start exercising.
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Thanks O_B, I do some of that anyway but will try the others and see what difference it makes. What concerns me more is his head: he's never been the most confident, so whether this crash, the pain, being abandoned at Newmarket and not having polos for 5 days
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, etc will be something he can get over mentally could be a major issue in his rehab, even if all the other issues are sorted. He's a horse with bags of scope and ability and not a lot of self-belief, so I don't want, or need, to push him just to satisfy my own selfish ambition.
 
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I think when he has had his treatment he should have a gentle trot round an Intro and I know just the person
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Gosh, it's so nice of you to think of me
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I really better start saving my pennies up!

What a bloomin' honest horse he is! Hope he has passed on all his wisdom and experiance to HH and Marty.

When Hen's ringbone first flared up, but before it was diagnosed, he completely threw the towel in. He had been flying 3ft6 XC courses, and gradually he started stopping at 2ft fences. With hindsight I wish I'd had him checked out, instead of waiting for him to actually go lame. Although the x-rays only showed tiny changes, so before that the vet would have probably laughed at the crazy paranoid owner
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Poor you Baydale, let's hope you have had all your bad luck for 2009 early on, they say it comes in 3's so that's the fall, your old horse having to be PTS and now Hector's injury. Your ball luck bill is fully paid up!

I hope things start to look up for you soon, and goodluck with all H's treatments/procedures etc I know it can be depressing.

Chin up
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poor poor hector and poor baydale
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I am going to add my 2 pennies- having worked with lots of competition horses I would gave done exactly the same and had a closer look at the cause it's just such a shame the outcome might not be straight forward. Fingers crossed for both of you x
 
Ah, I see- a horse like this is quite a different ball game. I do see what you are coming from totally
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Sorry, I just assumed from the posts that he was one of these cocky/very confident types, which would have been a horse that you could work with on this. What a bugger.
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