Help - complex diet issue!

[palo1]

Eek. My lad, an Irish terrier aged nearly 3 had to have emergency GA last night for what the vet thought was a bladder stones issue. The presentation was clear; dog straining and straining to go for a pee but nowt coming out. He was perfectly fine yesterday morning but really rough by 5pm.

Vet scanned and saw what looked like quite large stones so planned to operate and dog was prepped. After catheterising and bladder drained vet could see that what she had thought were stones was actually bulges in the colon subsequently found to be full of chomped up bone. She also found cystine crystals in the urine. No op needed but now on recovery meds and considering a management plan. My doggo has been on a raw diet for almost 2 years and has been thoroughly enjoying that and thriving. I am pretty flexible but raw was the thing that seemed to help most with getting enough weight on him (he is a very, very active dog) as well as being digestible enough that he didn't need to provide several 'man-size' poos every day. It has had many other advantages for him too.

Now however, vet has cautioned against a raw diet because of the cystine stones which may be due to a testosterone related issue and the cure is simple; castration!! The raw diet is slightly implicated here because we are now aware of some degree of bladder sensitivity and a high protein interaction with that. It is possible that as an Irish terrier, castration would totally resolve the issue but the breed society and association caution against a raw diet (I didn't know this previously) where male dogs/bladder issues may a thing. Sooo, raw now not looking the best thing in spite of it's many advantages.

BUT, what should I feed my lad if not raw - lower protein is probably best for any bladder related issues but he is already v slim and poos at the drop of a hat; through excitement etc. He is pretty sensitive too and has a rather rapid conversion rate lol. Raw has been brilliant but I don't want to re-visit last night's emergency.

I need, ideally a food that is wet (added moisture - dog not a great drinker) and not so high in protein as a raw diet but good enough to keep weight on a very active young dog. Castration might help the weight issue I know but I would rather avoid going back to 6 big poos a day. Has anyone got any suggestions?! I am happy to feed Chappie if that sort of thing would keep my lad healthy but I think he needs a bit more quality if possible. Vet doesn't think we need a specific medical diet jut not the one he is on currently. Thanks for any ideas/suggestions.

 

[bonny]

I’m probably missing something but is there a reason why he can’t stay on a raw diet minus the bones ?

 

[MotherOfChickens]

I am just switching my raw fed dog to forth glade and going well so far, he was put on raw for ongoing anal gland issues.

 

[palo1]

I’m probably missing something but is there a reason why he can’t stay on a raw diet minus the bones ?

I think the vet is concerned that the high protein content of a raw diet isn't great for any bladder/crystallisation issues. The bone bunging up his colon was entirely my fault for letting him have a large bone and not restricting that to a degree though it has never caused him problems previously. Vet felt that it could be an issue and yes, no more bones whatever he gets fed!! (well sprat bones maybe...)

 

[palo1]

I am just switching my raw fed dog to forth glade and going well so far, he was put on raw for ongoing anal gland issues.

That is interesting thank you - I will have a look at forthglade.

 

[skinnydipper]

I’m probably missing something but is there a reason why he can’t stay on a raw diet minus the bones ?

^This^

If you don't want to stop feeding raw, why not try a good quality raw complete - without additional bone?

Dear little Red is quiet tonight but I have got him a giant juicy bone for tomorrow so he will be busy then!!

 

[PapaverFollis]

My Sprollie had a bladder issue... sludge/crystals rather than full stones... on higher protein food. He had the expensive urininary medical diet food for a bit (Royal canin? Can't remember) but then we switch to Burns Alert and no problems since. 5 years ago? Entire male.

 

[PapaverFollis]

I also half fill his food bowl with water so the kibble floats! So he's constantly well hydrated. He doesn't drink much left to his own devices which didn't help.

 

[palo1]

I also half fill his food bowl with water so the kibble floats! So he's constantly well hydrated. He doesn't drink much left to his own devices which didn't help.

That is interesting thank you. I wonder how much poo he would produce on food like that...?!

 

[palo1]

^This^

If you don't want to stop feeding raw, why not try a good quality raw complete - without additional bone?

I know He loved the bone but clearly it didn't really love him. The bones are a bit of a distraction too though I think - the indigestiblity of so much bone (my fault) caused his colon to bulge onto his bladder but without that we may not have found the crystals issue.

I do think I probably need to find slightly lower protein but high digestibilty grade food. And give the straight bones a miss from now on.

 

[skinnydipper]

I think the vet is concerned that the high protein content of a raw diet isn't great for any bladder/crystallisation issues.

Is raw high protein? How does it compare to kibble?

I've just looked at some packs here and the highest protein content is 15.5%. I have no bags of kibble for comparison.

 

[palo1]

Is raw a high protein food? How does it compare to kibble?

I've just looked at some packs here and the highest protein content is 15.5%. I have no bags of kibble for comparison.

Well I think it can be difficult to work out tbh and I am not sure: I feed a variety but the nutritional analysis puts them at around 12% protein though I understand that you need to identify the 'dry' protein content rather than wet. I am confused about this tbh so happy to stand corrected.

 

[PapaverFollis]

That is interesting thank you. I wonder how much poo he would produce on food like that...?!

Sprollie does one small poop a day if that helps.

 

[Christmascinnamoncookie]

I’d also recommend Forthglade. I believe the same manufacturer produces Wainwrights trays from Pets at Home. I’ve filtered the results on this website for top rated first. Most of the top foods appear to be raw. https://www.allaboutdogfood.co.uk/the-dog-food-directory

 

[palo1]

I’d also recommend Forthglade. I believe the same manufacturer produces Wainwrights trays from Pets at Home. I’ve filtered the results on this website for top rated first. Most of the top foods appear to be raw. https://www.allaboutdogfood.co.uk/the-dog-food-directory

Thank you! It looks like Nutriment do a low purine food which might work too. I will check with the vet exactly what she thinks he needs but from what I can tell not only might it be possible to continue with raw feed but I can also fairly easily adapt the days where I feed 'straights' (meat and veg) by using a bit more tripe with the right kinds of veg and additives. I really don't want to have to feed a medical kibble after poor dog having loved his raw, hugely varied dinners. He is looking better this morning thankfully but a GA and catheter have knocked him. He is in his equifleece pajamas in front of the fire... I was utterly panic-stricken last night when he was so ill and the lovely vet nurse pitched up on a Saturday night to operate with the vet. I feel pretty guilty so don't want to make any dietary cock ups from now on!!

 

[some show]

I really like classic Rocco wet food for my raw-fed dog when we go on holiday and tins are easier! It rates well on allaboutdogfood (https://www.allaboutdogfood.co.uk/dog-food-reviews/0480/rocco-classic), and Joe likes all the flavours. I find his poos on it are about the same size as on his raw food, although maybe slightly less solid as there's no bone content.

 

[maisie06]

Speak to Paleo ridge - they do a special diet for issues like this, so do Natural Instinct, Bith companieshave qualified nutritionists on hand. In y experience many vets are anti raw, but recommend Hills or Royal canin, both high cost low quality diets...

Another angle would be cold pressed foods like Forthglade or Walker and Drake

 

[AmyMay]

That is interesting thank you - I will have a look at forthglade.

I feed my dog’s on Forthglade and they look great on it.

 

[Blanche]

What veg are you feeding with raw, some of it is high in purine. A few of my dalmatians had Uric acid problems, though very mild, none ever had stones. I would give them a milk flush ( that’s what I called it anyway) every so often. It was advised by a vet who had a special interest in crystals/ stones in certain breeds. It was years ago now so things may have moved on but I know people who still do it with great affect. I also gave them very sloppy feeds even though they all drank well.

 

[twiggy2]

I recommend speaking to millies wolfheart and see which of their foods they suggest

 

[palo1]

What veg are you feeding with raw, some of it is high in purine. A few of my dalmatians had Uric acid problems, though very mild, none ever had stones. I would give them a milk flush ( that’s what I called it anyway) every so often. It was advised by a vet who had a special interest in crystals/ stones in certain breeds. It was years ago now so things may have moved on but I know people who still do it with great affect. I also gave them very sloppy feeds even though they all drank well.

Thank you. I have been feeding a variety of veg including sweet potato, parsnip, carrots, cabbage etc but will cut out the sweet potato as that is high in purine so I understand. The bone content is also high in purine so will reduce that. My lad thankfully hasn't actually got stones but does have crystals so I need to act now rather than let them develop. I have found quite a few suitable ready made foods now; raw and kibble and think that I can modify what I have been feeding and still achieve a healthy, low purine diet. I know the vet was a bit meh about feeding raw and told me that it was very 'fashionable'. I did try to explain my perspective but we were both too keen on getting doggo sorted to worry about a dietary discussion. She told me she feeds her dogs Fish 4 Dogs and likes that but I don't think that would work for a low purine diet particularly. Anyway he is still looking rather sorry for himself but has eaten and had a decent drink and I am making his food wetter with water. Hopefully he will feel better very soon.

 

[palo1]

I recommend speaking to millies wolfheart and see which of their foods they suggest

Thanks, yes I will look at theirs now.

 

[PurBee]

I really like classic Rocco wet food for my raw-fed dog when we go on holiday and tins are easier! It rates well on allaboutdogfood (https://www.allaboutdogfood.co.uk/dog-food-reviews/0480/rocco-classic), and Joe likes all the flavours. I find his poos on it are about the same size as on his raw food, although maybe slightly less solid as there's no bone content.

I switched to this - their grain free ones - when my dogs were showing allergy….so i stopped grains, went onto rocco due to freezer storage issues (otherwise i would have gone full raw probably) - both dogs do very well on this and grain free kibble.
Their poops are healthy, unlike the mainstream brands of wet food which is either soy or pure gluten blocks (called saitan) in meat broth…that stuff produces huge poops due to the indigestibility of saitan especially.

 

[deb_l222]

You’ve already mentioned the solution in your first post - Chappie!!

I’ve had two dogs with bladder stone tendencies (struvite crystals) and my vet has recommended Chappie every time. There is also a royal canin urinary food which will do the same job but it’s 3 times the price.

 

[deb_l222]

Sorry also meant to say, try and supplement the diet with either cranberry or vitamin c to keep the urine acidic. This will help prevent crystals forming in the first place.

 

[Clodagh]

I’m so sorry your poor little chap is not well.
I hope he soon bounces back to full health.

 

[palo1]

I’m so sorry your poor little chap is not well.
I hope he soon bounces back to full health.

Thank you - it is utterly awful to see him so subdued and I am just hoping that the after effects of the GA wear off soon and that medication sees him more chirpy. He has eaten and drunk and even actually managed some puddles which is great but he looks so sorry for himself and I am not sure what to expect in terms of his recovery trajectory. If he is not much chirpier tomorrow he will be back at the vets. It feels like a really big deal too because I am still trying to get over the many £0000s spent on my mare and now this will be a sizeable sum too. It isn't about the money but I am equally not made of the stuff and it does worry me, even though I really don't want to insure. I have had animals for so long uninsured so I am hoping that this is just a run of really bad luck. AND IT WILL END VERY SOON lol!!

 

[palo1]

You’ve already mentioned the solution in your first post - Chappie!!

I’ve had two dogs with bladder stone tendencies (struvite crystals) and my vet has recommended Chappie every time. There is also a royal canin urinary food which will do the same job but it’s 3 times the price.

Yes, Chappie is horribly familiar to me having fed it to a number of rather sensitive sight hounds over the years. It defies logic but I have rarely had a dog fail to thrive on it in spite of my disgust!! I will certainly acquire a few tins just in case...

 

[palo1]

Sorry also meant to say, try and supplement the diet with either cranberry or vitamin c to keep the urine acidic. This will help prevent crystals forming in the first place.

I made a rush order (thank you Amazon) for a cranberry supplement which apparantly the patient approves of. His crystals are cystine ones but I don't need any of the other beggars as well so belt and braces!!

 

[[153312]]

Can't help but just wanted to send <<<<vibes>>>> for speedy and compassion free healing!