Help - complex diet issue!

palo1 said:
Yes, Chappie is horribly familiar to me having fed it to a number of rather sensitive sight hounds over the years. It defies logic but I have rarely had a dog fail to thrive on it in spite of my disgust!! I will certainly acquire a few tins just in case...
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Yep, it’s cheap and cheerful but I’ve fed it to most of my dogs on and off for donkeys years and they have all thrived on it. Current girl Willow is a chappie lady because she has bladder stone tendencies. She has a cranberry tablet every other day and I never change her diet and she hasn’t had a urine infection for over 12 months now.

Chester would be a Chappie boy but he’s just awkward and it didn’t suit him so he’s on stupid expensive royal canin sensitive (rolls eyes lol).
 
My poor chap has had to have another emergency vet visit and things not looking very hopeful. Vet has done everything she possibly can now. I know it is late but if anyone can send healing vibes to the bestest friend I have ever had I would be so grateful. He is very heavily sedated in the hope that his body can sort itself out. I can't quite believe how desperate things have become for my chap.
 
GSD Woman said:
palo 1, please keep us updated. I hope she can get this sorted out. Has the vet started him back on IV fluids?
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No, he is not on IV fluids. He has no blockage or stones and has drunk reasonably well; his bladder was very full when the vet drained it. He is experiencing severe spasmodic pain which is causing the urethra to clamp shut hence the straining to pee and pain. He has a fentanyl patch, gabapentine, metacam, anti-biotics as a prevention due to catheterisation yesterday as well as some bladder/urethra soothing tablets that I can't remember the name of. There is no 'problem' as such other than the constant spasms that mean he is shutting off his own urinary tract. Today we just bought him a bit more time to try to soothe his urinary tract so that normal function might be able to resume but we won't be able to buy him much more time after tomorrow. I am lost with it all and can't believe that a dog that was perfectly fine on Saturday morning is in this desperate situation now. I am just praying that the very heavy sedation and muscle relaxants will do what is needed.
 
Is the Antispasmodic called something like Prosin? The fentanyl patch should really help. For some reason that didn't post last night.

How are things today?
 
GSD Woman said:
Is the Antispasmodic called something like Prosin? The fentanyl patch should really help. For some reason that didn't post last night.

How are things today?
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Thank you! Overnight he was very good - happy to potter out for a wee (hooray!!) and poo and wagging his tail rather wearily. Post op checks this morning have gone very well - no fentanyl or other heavy meds prescribed but he is at home with some gabapentine and paracetamol on board. He has a big scar for the bladder surgery but a suitably small one for castration. The fact that he is so bright in spite of this makes me realise just how incredibly unwell he was yesterday. He has had some poached chicken with mashed potato and carrots for brekkie which he ate up very well but he is now tired so resting on the sofa in front of the woodburner. Hoping he will co-operate by staying there till lunch time now. :) Although I have loved all of my dogs very, very dearly and taken much delight in their individual characters this dog is the one who has completely become part of me. I know I will eventually have to say goodbye to him but I am relieved beyond words that it is not yet!!
 
Dietary update is that my local dog food shop stocks the Nutriment Low purine and phosphorus food so as a first off I am going to start Red on that. I feel a bit 'safer' sticking with a similar diet to the one that has suited him best whilst also taking on the need for low purine. I am confident I will be able to create some delish low purine dinners by myself once I have had a bit of time to do the necessary research.
 
palo1 said:
Dietary update is that my local dog food shop stocks the Nutriment Low purine and phosphorus food so as a first off I am going to start Red on that. I feel a bit 'safer' sticking with a similar diet to the one that has suited him best whilst also taking on the need for low purine. I am confident I will be able to create some delish low purine dinners by myself once I have had a bit of time to do the necessary research.
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I was very pleased to hear that Red has come through his op and is on the road to recovery. I am sure you will get his diet sorted.

Below is an old post of mine. There might be some information in it that you find useful.

skinnydipper said:
I resorted to cooking for my dog when he developed hypothyroidism and zinc deficiency when on a soy and corn veterinary diet.

There were so few foods that he didn't react to (lymphocytic/plasmacytic ibd) that I wanted to ensure that he was eating a nutritionally complete diet using the few foods he could eat.

Eventually I came across Raw Fed and Nerdy and, although he couldn't eat raw due to his compromised immune system, I used the free service they provide which gives you the nutrient requirements based on your dog's weight and NRC guidelines https://rawfedandnerdy.com/adult-dogs-nutrient-requirements.

Armed with that information I then joined Cronometer (free) and entered his target values and saved them - it's a bit time consuming but you only need do this once. You can then enter each day's diet and see if you are meeting targets for nutrition and what needs tweaking.

If the food you are feeding is not on the database you can look up the nutritional info on the internet and enter it yourself.

You can't use minces with bone as you should not cook it, it needs to be meat/organs without bone. I added seaweed calcium, I used Animal Essentials and Lunderland.

I did not use the following services but they could be useful if you are short on time.

Charley, The Raw Vet, offers a service where she will analyse what you are feeding "Check My Diet".

Savannah, Raw Fed and Nerdy, will formulate a diet for your dog.

Cat Lane, The Possible Canine, a canine nutritionist - you will find her on face book, will also formulate a diet based on your dog's requirements.

I hope something in this information might be useful to you, Planete.

ETA. Linda Case's book, Canine and Feline Nutrition, seems to be well recommended but I thought it might be over my head.
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skinnydipper said:
I was very pleased to hear that Red has come through his op and is on the road to recovery. I am sure you will get his diet sorted.

Below is an old post of mine. There might be some information in it that you find useful.
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Thank you. From what I can find out, a low purine diet for the kind of problem Red has is not essential. The professor studying that problem asserts that dietary interventions/changes post castration are not necessary but some owners clearly want to pursue a low purine approach. I don't actually want to feed one of the commercial low purine kibbles because they sound utterly grim and not actually nutritious though plenty of people have happy, healthy dogs eating that!!

It seems wise to steer a middle course with a low purine raw diet atm especially as I don't think it will be particularly difficult to avoid high purine foods and high bone content in a raw diet using both pre-prepared and home made feeds which is what I currently do. The only thing I am slightly struggling with is accurate info about the purine levels in foods. Thankfully goats milk, eggs and yoghurt are all good and Red loves those. Rabbit, chicken and some fish are also good as well as carrots, squash and cabbage and I already feed mostly those things. :) Gawd. I have a horse who took me on a similar dietary journey so having to work stuff out myself isn't entirely new...
 
palo1 said:
I have a horse who took me on a similar dietary journey so having to work stuff out myself isn't entirely new...
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You have an advantage over me :)

It was a steep learning curve for me. For example, I did not know what the calcium phosphorous ratio should be and I was not aware that copper levels in liver from different animals varied so much and knew nothing of the zinc copper ratio, and that too much zinc can cause a copper deficiency or that too much copper can lead to liver toxicity.

This time I have taken the easy way out and buy raw completes and let someone else do the hard work.:D
 
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skinnydipper said:
You have an advantage over me :)

It was a steep learning curve for me. For example, I did not know what the calcium phosphorous ratio should be and I was not aware that copper levels in liver from different animals varied so much and knew nothing of the zinc copper ratio, and that too much zinc can cause a copper deficiency or that too much copper can lead to liver toxicity.

This time I have taken the easy way out and buy raw completes and let someone else do the hard work.:D
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Noooooooo, I don't want to have to spend ages working out mineral ratios!! Do I have to??? Can I not just feed 'safe' meats, veg and supplemental oil and perhaps 'Keepers Mix'?? Would it be better to just go for the 1 flavour of various brands that are low purine? Eek.
 
Bellasophia said:
https://irishterrierassociation.co.uk/cystinuria
this link says a regular diet,just not high protein( barf is high protein they say)will be fine..coupled with castration ,which he’s done.
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Yes, that's right :) The thing I am struggling with slightly is exactly what is a high protein diet?! I 'think' that if I add in more veg to raw low purine meat then that will be achieved. The issue is not so much protein as purine - I think the advice has been simplified so that it is easier but purine is the issue, not specifically protein; the original research fellow on the Irish Terrier version of cystineuria felt that diet made a minimal impact but for obvious reasons some owners want to choose a more specialist diet - I am just not sure I can bring myself to feed what is in some of those packaged kibbles. Dalmations also require similar diets in that they need low purine and there are plenty of raw foods that work for them so I am going to do a bit more research and head that way if it seems ok.

I hope things are ok with you - I know you have been having a horrible time yourself so thank you for helping here. :)
 
If this were me I would ring the lady from the Irish society that helped you find the s3 diagnosis…they know the breed inside out and presumably have encountered this awful illness in their members dogs..
the Dalmatian forums and also deerhounds I believe have good info too..
you may have to give a low purine kibble for bulk and then add suitable fresh extras..just ideas.
snacks..https://www.veterinarynutritiongroup.com/post/homemade-low-purine-treats-for-dalmatians

https://www.dalmatiandiy.com/homemade-dog-food-breakfast-of-champions/
A raw based option..contains a useful list on foods to avoid etc
https://www.prodograw.com/dalmatian-food-guide/
There are loads more..this is just a bit of reading whilst he’s recovering..

thanks for remembering my girl..
Im taking things day by day..she’s doing” quite” well,shorter walks,eating well,but peeing more eg thrice in the night( I’m finding this hard as it’s like having a newborn )..I’m sleep deprived
.cannabis oil is helping her at night .
I will go back for another ecogram,to see where we are but if they push again to do chemo I will once again stand my ground.
 
palo1 said:
Noooooooo, I don't want to have to spend ages working out mineral ratios!! Do I have to??? Can I not just feed 'safe' meats, veg and supplemental oil and perhaps 'Keepers Mix'?? Would it be better to just go for the 1 flavour of various brands that are low purine? Eek.
Click to expand...

Using the raw fed and nerdy link in one of my posts above you can get Red's nutrient requirements, then cronometer is your friend. :) Enter and save Red's requirements, you only need to do this once. Then you complete a daily diary, it will flag up any problems and you can adjust his diet accordingly.

Entering his nutrient requirements will be the tedious part. When you enter a food in the diary you can save it to a favourites list which makes life easier. You can add custom foods which are not on the database and create recipes. Obviously if he is eating much the same one one day as he did on another then you won't need to check it again.

For interest, this a copy of the information I received from raw fed and nerdy for my dog.

Protein & Amino Acids
Protein (g) 58.877212054315756
Tryptophan (g) 0.825716998322721
Isoleucine (g) 2.1540443434505767
Threonine (g) 2.513051734025673
Lysine (g) 1.9745406481630285
Methionine (g) 1.9745406481630285
Methionine & Cysteine (g) 3.769577601038509
Phenylalanine (g) 2.6925554293132206
Phenylalanine & Tyrosine (g) 4.308088686901153
Valine (g) 2.872059124600769
Arginine (g) 1.9745406481630285
Histidine (g) 1.112922910782798
Leucine (g) 3.949081296326057
Fat & Fatty Acids
Total Fat (g) 32.31066515175865
Total Fat Safe Upper Limit (g) 193.8639909105519
Linoleic Acid (g) 6.46213303035173
Alpha-Linoleic Acid (g) 0.2513051734025673
Linoleic Acid Safe Upper Limit (g) 37.695776010385096
Eicosapentaenoic + Docosahexaenoic Acid (g) 0.5385110858626442
Minerals
Calcium (g) 2.3335480387381247
Iron (mg) 17.950369528754806
Magnesium (mg) 353.6222797164697
Phosphorus (g) 1.7950369528754806
Potassium (g) 2.513051734025673
Sodium (mg) 470.2996816533759
Zinc (mg) 35.90073905750961
Copper (mg) 3.590073905750961
Manganese (mg) 2.872059124600769
Selenium (mcg) 211.8143604393067
Chloride (mg) 718.0147811501922
Iodine (mcg) 531.3309380511423
Vitamins
Vitamin A (RE) 897.5184764377402
Vitamin A (RE) Safe Supper Limit 37677.82564085634
Cholecalciferol (mcg) 8.077666287939662
Cholecalciferol (mcg) Safe Upper Limit46.6709607747625
Vitamin E (a-tocopherol) (mg) 17.950369528754806
Vitamin K (mg) 0.9693199545527594
B1 Thiamin (mg) 1.3283273451278554
B2 Riboflavin (mg) 3.069513189417072
B6 Pyridoxine (mg) 0.8795681069089855
Folic Acid (mcg) 159.75828880591777
B12 Cobalamin (mcg) 20.642924958068026
B5 Pantothenic Acid (mg) 8.795681069089854
Choline (mg) 1005.2206936102691

Remember that numbers are only a small part of the image. Use these numbers with caution. Ingredients, dog health, basic nutrition knowledge etc. are needed to use these numbers. Just because a nutrient does not have a defined safe upper limit does not mean there is not a safe amount to feed.

Notes
EPA should be 50-60% and DHA 40-50% of n-3 fatty acids.

0.01g arginine should be added for every gram of total protein above 80 g (MR) and 100g (RA)

Zinc to Copper should be 10:1
 
Bellasophia said:
If this were me I would ring the lady from the Irish society that helped you find the s3 diagnosis…they know the breed inside out and presumably have encountered this awful illness in their members dogs..
the Dalmatian forums and also deerhounds I believe have good info too..
you may have to give a low purine kibble for bulk and then add suitable fresh extras..just ideas.
snacks..https://www.veterinarynutritiongroup.com/post/homemade-low-purine-treats-for-dalmatians

https://www.dalmatiandiy.com/homemade-dog-food-breakfast-of-champions/
A raw based option..contains a useful list on foods to avoid etc
https://www.prodograw.com/dalmatian-food-guide/
There are loads more..this is just a bit of reading whilst he’s recovering..

thanks for remembering my girl..
Im taking things day by day..she’s doing” quite” well,shorter walks,eating well,but peeing more eg thrice in the night( I’m finding this hard as it’s like having a newborn )..I’m sleep deprived
.cannabis oil is helping her at night .
I will go back for another ecogram,to see where we are but if they push again to do chemo I will once again stand my ground.
Click to expand...

The lady identified on the IT webpage is Red's dad's breeder & owner and the breed health co-ordinator for the KC I think. :) She has an absolute wealth of knowledge and experience but of course, typically has not had to deal with cystineuria in her own dogs; the type 3 is very, very rare and not particularly screenable or trackable in a pedigree because no-one seems sure how the gene mutates to create the type 3 issue. Both Red's parents have been health tested to the n'th degree and as far as I know, no instances of this at all. The picture would be confused too by the number of IT males that will have been castrated as a matter of course; they will not show any symptoms or develop a problem whilst others may carry the gene mutation but it may never develop. This research project needs more blood samples so hopefully Red's mum and dad and siblings may be able to provide that. You can imagine though how that may not be that simple and not every owner of all the puppies might want to supply blood samples. Out of the 4 male puppies they may now all have been castrated too. Red may very well be the only pup out of a litter of 8 (4 boys & 4 girls) and both parents that has the gene mutation so the process of learning about that will be very slow.

I have been studying exactly those dalmation websites thank you too and have collated a good list of safe ready-made low purine foods from the main raw brands as well as some recipes that are virtually identical to what I already feed. I will have to cut out sprats for example but already feed yoghurt and cottage cheese with eggs. I can feed salmon in moderation too. The prescription diets are just...grim!! I would and will feed those if that is what is best but Red really didn't do well on a decent kibble when he was 3-12 months; pretty skinny and just so much poo...!!! One vet and Irish Terrier breeder who has dealt with this problem professionally is pretty confident that no dietary adjustments are needed so there isn't actually a consensus.

I might have to dip his wee for a bit to see if that indicates anything useful in terms of adjusting the diet - I understand there is a way to use that helpfully. It's going to be a long winter...
 
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skinnydipper said:
Using the raw fed and nerdy link in one of my posts above you can get Red's nutrient requirements, then cronometer is your friend. :) Enter and save Red's requirements, you only need to do this once. Then you complete a daily diary, it will flag up any problems and you can adjust his diet accordingly.

Entering his nutrient requirements will be the tedious part. When you enter a food in the diary you can save it to a favourites list which makes life easier. You can add custom foods which are not on the database and create recipes. Obviously if he is eating much the same one one day as he did on another then you won't need to check it again.

For interest, this a copy of the information I received from raw fed and nerdy for my dog.

Protein & Amino Acids
Protein (g) 58.877212054315756
Tryptophan (g) 0.825716998322721
Isoleucine (g) 2.1540443434505767
Threonine (g) 2.513051734025673
Lysine (g) 1.9745406481630285
Methionine (g) 1.9745406481630285
Methionine & Cysteine (g) 3.769577601038509
Phenylalanine (g) 2.6925554293132206
Phenylalanine & Tyrosine (g) 4.308088686901153
Valine (g) 2.872059124600769
Arginine (g) 1.9745406481630285
Histidine (g) 1.112922910782798
Leucine (g) 3.949081296326057
Fat & Fatty Acids
Total Fat (g) 32.31066515175865
Total Fat Safe Upper Limit (g) 193.8639909105519
Linoleic Acid (g) 6.46213303035173
Alpha-Linoleic Acid (g) 0.2513051734025673
Linoleic Acid Safe Upper Limit (g) 37.695776010385096
Eicosapentaenoic + Docosahexaenoic Acid (g) 0.5385110858626442
Minerals
Calcium (g) 2.3335480387381247
Iron (mg) 17.950369528754806
Magnesium (mg) 353.6222797164697
Phosphorus (g) 1.7950369528754806
Potassium (g) 2.513051734025673
Sodium (mg) 470.2996816533759
Zinc (mg) 35.90073905750961
Copper (mg) 3.590073905750961
Manganese (mg) 2.872059124600769
Selenium (mcg) 211.8143604393067
Chloride (mg) 718.0147811501922
Iodine (mcg) 531.3309380511423
Vitamins
Vitamin A (RE) 897.5184764377402
Vitamin A (RE) Safe Supper Limit 37677.82564085634
Cholecalciferol (mcg) 8.077666287939662
Cholecalciferol (mcg) Safe Upper Limit46.6709607747625
Vitamin E (a-tocopherol) (mg) 17.950369528754806
Vitamin K (mg) 0.9693199545527594
B1 Thiamin (mg) 1.3283273451278554
B2 Riboflavin (mg) 3.069513189417072
B6 Pyridoxine (mg) 0.8795681069089855
Folic Acid (mcg) 159.75828880591777
B12 Cobalamin (mcg) 20.642924958068026
B5 Pantothenic Acid (mg) 8.795681069089854
Choline (mg) 1005.2206936102691

Remember that numbers are only a small part of the image. Use these numbers with caution. Ingredients, dog health, basic nutrition knowledge etc. are needed to use these numbers. Just because a nutrient does not have a defined safe upper limit does not mean there is not a safe amount to feed.

Notes
EPA should be 50-60% and DHA 40-50% of n-3 fatty acids.

0.01g arginine should be added for every gram of total protein above 80 g (MR) and 100g (RA)

Zinc to Copper should be 10:1
Click to expand...

Simples!! Hahahahahaha. May take me a while to work all this out...
 
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