Help! Exercises for stiff, heavy, lazy horse.

[little_flea]

My mare (rising 9, 16'3 warmblood, jumping at Foxhunter level) has a naturally bad mouth – very numb. She is stiff, especially to the right side and a big, long mare who finds it difficult to bend around the inside leg. She is also lazy and very hard work to ride for me as I am very small on her – she is a very physical ride and exhausts me.

I am running out of tricks and exercises to try and get her of the forehand, more supple through the body and neck and lighter in the hand. I have pretty good hands on other horses but on this one I find that I am getting heavy and fixed which of course doesn't help as we end up in a pulling competition which she naturally wins.

I struggle to keep her round in a decent "jumping canter" – at a slower, more collected pace it is ok, but when I move her on she wants to hollow or get long and heavy. She is not a self-motivator - she is trained to go off the leg, but goes forward rather than up into the bridle. She has all the scope for bigger classes but to jump them she has to be more adjustable and more elastic and round.

Looking for flat exercises rather than jumping. If anyone has any good suggestions or tricks I'd be grateful to hear!

 

[Jane_Lou]

Not an exercise but - our mare was revolutionlised by changing into a Micklem Bridle, much lighter in front and it has finally unlocked her neck and body. Worth a try, even if it makes half the improvement it made to our mare!

 

[Festive_Felicitations]

Beau used to be very stiff and on the forehand and the most effective way of sorting this was constant bending and transitions. Untill he started to get off his forehand we would do a maximum of 5 strides in a straight line everything else was bending, leg yeilding, circles with true and counter flexion really exagerating the flexion with open hands. We didnt worry at all about head carriage through all this just that he was even in the contact. If she tries to lean on your hands give her nothing to lean on keep the contact light, it might feel like you are going to nose-dive at first but it does get better.

Exercises: 5m serpentines in walk and trot, Spiraling circles leg yeilding in and out, 10m circle to a few strides of shoulder in straighten and ride forward, leg yeild ride straight for a bit leg yeild the other way. If there are jumps set-up use them as bending poles to weave round. Through all the turns insist that she keeps the 'forward' don't let her die round the corners. The idea being that she has to balance her self and use her back end or fall over. When you do ride in a straight line the minute she starts to lean go back to circles. And while doing all this turning do lots of forward and back within the pace so slow walk to medium walk, collected to medium trot (or approximations of). Its hard work but it does work, or did for me at least

Hopefully once you have her lighter at the front it will make the canter easier.

Also with the forward really worked on making him very responsive to the leg so ask once nicely, no reaction belt with the sick. Didnt matter if we shot off in canter instead of trot he was responding - didnt take much of this to get him responding to much lighter aids. But also being really strict with myself about not nagging him once he was going forward. I'm not sure and he is quite a fine horse but riding him used to be SO HARD. Doing this ^ made it so much easier I wish I'd been really strict about it years earlier.

 

[little_flea]

Thank you both. Re micklem bridles - do they work with a pelham bit (or does that entirely defeat the purpose)? I think we have one at the yard though - worth testing. (though I'd be devastated if my wonderful Equipe bridle would be a dust collector! )

F_F - your ideas are very similar to what I am already doing, so clearly I am not doing them quite right. I probably don't do transitions as often as every five stride but I probably should. I use a lot of variation in the pace but I think I don't ask enough and she does drop off the leg very easily.

I really struggle with the whole "don't give her anything to lean on" with this horse – when she starts leaning and I try to discuorage it by lightning my contact, she just leans further "down" and gets even longer. Or she hollows. Sometimes I have "shake" her of the bridle and this is not very nice.

Totally agree with discipline in regards to come off the leg -*it is hard to always be disciplined and consistent. Also made hard by the fact that she does go off the leg when I ask - just not with enough "spark"!

 

[Goldenstar]

Have you tried a Waterford on her ?

 

[little_flea]

I have tried a Waterford in the past and it wasn't great - but saying that it was a long time ago when she was less educated. I have a few other bits I want to try again and I will add the Waterford to that list!

 

[MadisonBelle]

Just last my RI had me doing lots of counter canter and to leg yield with a lot of neck flexion within the counter canter. So for example I would pick up left canter, ride across the school to put us in counter canter, then on the 3/4 line I had to leg yield off the right leg with right bend.

I must admit I got really confused with MY legs and the bend and as the school was big enough I found it easier to ride true canter, then go onto the 3/4 and do the leg yield that way but boy did it improve my mares canter and really lifted her off of her shoulders!

Our left canter is lovely anyway but our right is dire as she dives down and doesn't bend and this counter bend in counter canter really made come through beautifully on her true right canter as we had in effect stretched her on the left rein counter canter with the leg yield!

I have probably made no sense so apologise and I even got a headache last night thinking about it but when I had done it, it then made sense and really helped my mare.

 

[little_flea]

I want to understand this but I am too stupid! So in counter canter you'd normally have the horse with a very small bend to the outside - in your exercise, you are in counter canter with an inside bend instead? And leg yield into the same direction as the bend?

Definitely will try if I can understand it right, though our counter canter leaves a lot to be desired (jumping horse confused at lack of lead change)

 

[TableDancer]

My view is in this situation (and I am by no means a fan of "bitting them up") you do need a bit that will help you. Waterford, Waterford universal,Tom thumb gag, whatever - but with your size and her size and attributes you will need a bit of help. She really really mustn't lean on you, and shaking her off the bit if necessary is fine, if you are truly consistent she will get the idea quickly. So she must learn to canter in self carriage without relying on you for balance, then you can work on canter quality and power. Then on adjustability and changing gear. I honestly don't think it is a question of anything revolutionary in terms of exercises: circles, spirals and transitions within and from the canter - but you have to practise right, it is one of those "practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect" situations.

 

[little_flea]

My view is in this situation (and I am by no means a fan of "bitting them up") you do need a bit that will help you. Waterford, Waterford universal,Tom thumb gag, whatever - but with your size and her size and attributes you will need a bit of help. She really really mustn't lean on you, and shaking her off the bit if necessary is fine, if you are truly consistent she will get the idea quickly. So she must learn to canter in self carriage without relying on you for balance, then you can work on canter quality and power. Then on adjustability and changing gear. I honestly don't think it is a question of anything revolutionary in terms of exercises: circles, spirals and transitions within and from the canter - but you have to practise right, it is one of those "practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect" situations.

I agree regarding bitting up - sure, it would be nice to ride in a snaffle but on this horse I wouldn't stand a chance. A 13 stone man might be able to, but not me. I'd rather bit up and be able to use more gentle aids.

It is difficult in staying consistent and I do think I have confused my mare a bit by probably letting her get away with stuff because she is such hard work and I get tired. Often riding after work at 8 in the evening in the rain probably doesn't always offer the best circumstances for inspired schooling.

I will definitely try some different bits, hadn't thought of a Tom Thumb. Considering a Myler combination as well.

And you are absolutely right, I have to be really hard on myself to not EVER let her get away with leaning/not being enough off the leg. Thank you.

 

[TarrSteps]

My view is in this situation (and I am by no means a fan of "bitting them up") you do need a bit that will help you. Waterford, Waterford universal,Tom thumb gag, whatever - but with your size and her size and attributes you will need a bit of help. She really really mustn't lean on you, and shaking her off the bit if necessary is fine, if you are truly consistent she will get the idea quickly. So she must learn to canter in self carriage without relying on you for balance, then you can work on canter quality and power. Then on adjustability and changing gear. I honestly don't think it is a question of anything revolutionary in terms of exercises: circles, spirals and transitions within and from the canter - but you have to practise right, it is one of those "practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect" situations.

That, pretty much.

We know from your posts you are a good rider, getting good instruction and jumping at a decent level. In other words, you are pretty educated. You are also a small person on a big, long horse which, from what you have said before, has maybe not had the most useful work before you got her. Give yourself some help by finding something you can ride in that will help you make an impression on her. There are bits around that you might find you can use short term or only once and awhile and then to jump in, that give you just that bit () extra. Pelhams are great bits for many horses but I do find the mullen mouth ones can make some horses very fixed and straight in the neck - they are a favourite bit for American show hunters for just this reason, as they produce that "stretched" look but with a bit more control than the snaffle. But that is not really what you are wanting here. I'd suggest having a chat with one of the good bit banks or emailing the companies and asking their advice - they may have suggestions you wouldn't get to on your own.

 

[icestationzebra]

If she is tricky in the mouth have you considered a hackamore? You might find she stops leaning on you which will be the key to you getting her more adjustable......

 

[vam]

I cant tell you how much she sounds like mine. Before he got broken we had just hit that light bulb moment where it all fell into place. The last ride i had on him was awesome, light in hand, up, forward and just there with me ready for what i asked next. Gutted but there you go.
Anyway..
Transitions was the way forward but i did most of it out hacking, an hour hack would take nearly double the time because i would halt, walk a few strides, halt, trot few strides halt, walk, halt, rein back, trot, canter, walk, etc, you get the idea. If he would get a bit spooky lots of leg yield, even if he wasnt i would pick a spot leg yield one way then another then carry on. He never just hacked out, he worked all the way bar the last part of the drive on a long rein, even the we would still change the pace.
Same in the school but with more circles, raised poles nearly every time we where in there (he just never settled doing it on the lunge so i only did them ridden).
The hacking actually made more of a difference but it depends on the horse i think. I wouldnt say he was lazy but he was backwards thinking especially hacking (nappy) and it really did help get him forward under his own steam.
With regards to bitting, i changed him from a nathe pelham to a ported pelham, massive difference. Might be worth looking at the mouth piece as well as the sides. It made such a difference that i think i could drop down to a ported snaffle as he curled slightly in the pelham, this is a horse that has never over bent, always wanting to go down and out or up and out.

 

[el_Snowflakes]

I completely know where your coming from with your issue. .........Dropping the contact does not work with some horses. My WB mare will go lower & lower if u do so until her nose is on the floor- she would walk/trot/ canter like this happily!.......lots of transitions & half halts. Don't let her wander, make her march In walk in warm up so u can really feel her stepping under you. A lot of riders encourage long and low (rightly so) keep this to a minimum with this type of horse. If she's like mine, she probably spends 23 hours a day long & low!!!!You want her to be shorter & more upright as opposed to vertical.......Iv rediscovered half halts & transitions recently & my horses jumping canter now feels so easy & light if u need spurs use them to get her jumping off the leg. Good luck

 

[Goldenstar]

Try warming her up by a short hack then got in the school and work her hard for a short time before you get tired walk her off on a loose rien .
Never let her back of when walking off if she makes you work hard tickle her with a dressage whip.
Never ever accept that "I am working harder than you " feel from if that happens change what you are doing .
Use poles on the ground and cones ( to bend round and leg yield towards and away from ) to keep her interest .
I would think do less but do it better .

 

[little_flea]

Wow, thank you everyone. Reading your comments was a real lightbulb moment for me - I need to change the bit!

She has been in a straight bar short shank Pelham for ages - tried some different things ages ago but defaulted back to the Pelham again. She is clearly at a level now that she has to become more adjustable, more contained and on her hocks - and like TarrSteps said - Pelhams are "numb" bits. I have planned on changing the bit for quite some time now but always thought "oh I'll try at the weekend when I have more time if it doesn't work" - weekend comes, I have 5 horses to ride and don't get around to it ad infinitum.

Your posts today made me change the bit - this evening I ride her in a simple happy mouth three ring gag (a bit I don't particularly like) and it was a revelation! I had control! She backed off a bit too much perhaps, but all in all a total light bulb moment - all these brilliant exercises I know and that you have suggested will now hopefully work - because she listens to the hand.

The simplest things... Duh! Thank you all x

 

[TarrSteps]

Good result!

I might suggest having a look at the Myler bits with hooks. There is a huge range of mouthpieces (all available in the combination bridle as well) but they also have a lot of information on which does what. I've found them useful as you can play around with having the reins through the hooks or not. I am not really a fan of flat schooling in a leverage bit as it makes it very hard to get lateral flexion properly, but sometimes you need a bit 'more' to start or to jump in.

 

[little_flea]

Good idea TarrSteps - think we have a Myler hook bit, will try that.

I don't like schooling in leverage bits either and I have tried to flat my mare in a more suitable bit but it just isn't productive. She (and I, for that matter) is in a big transition period at the moment as we have to take it really slow with her - very late developer and despite her talent for jumping, there are lots of things that are not natural or easy for her, and with me not exactly being a great producer of horses, I think I have confused both her and myself a little. I also am fully aware that I can get on someone else's horse and demand it to work hard, with Vanilla that I absolutely adore - I don't ask enough!

Hopefully if I can crack some if the problems in a stronger bit Iight be able to "trade down" when she gets the hang of it.

I also need to start running more, because riding this mare round a reasonable track takes some work!

Very grateful for all your comments and suggestions.

 

[el_Snowflakes]

Ps. I forgot to add rein back as one of my favourite excercises to 'wake up' her back end...... For jumping I use a gag or nue Schule elevator. However I school mine in a hanging cheek snaffle & find it excellent after trying a loooooot of bits! I'm now finding I can just jump her in the snaffle too. It's a really great bit for this type of horse.

 

[little_flea]

Yep, I do that a lot when she becomes locked and heavy. At least it gets her off the bit (though it's not pretty!)

 

[little_flea]

Vam, sorry about your horse.

You are most welcome to come and ride mine - do feel free to have a lightbulb moment with her!!

 

[DonkeyClub]

What about turn on the forehand in walk , steep half passes and 5/10 metre circles in trot- all with your weight / upper body very upright/ sitting back.. these are all brilliant for unblocking a stiff long horse

 

[vam]

Vam, sorry about your horse.

You are most welcome to come and ride mine - do feel free to have a lightbulb moment with her!!

Thank you, a bit gutting as we where planning to step it all up finally but hey, thats horses.

When i say light blub moment it was more like a wind up torch, took a while but got there in the end I have also discovered that not riding for 5 months means im seriously unfit, 20 mins of walking in hand leaves me knackered . I think if i tried to ride properly i wouldnt be able to move for a week after!

 

[little_flea]

I actually never think of doing a turn on the forehand! I use turn on the haunches quite a lot, but good tip. I do a lot of half pass but suspect I don't ask enough of the horse... 5m circles? That's crazy, I can barely ride a 20m one might have to get some help from dressagey sister.

 

[vam]

Ooh just thought of one exersize that made a huge difference (although i suspect you prob do it already) canter up the long side, 10m circle in the corner, then out opening up down the long side then back to you and another 10m circle in the corner. The better he got meant i could add a circle in each corner rather than just the one. The first few times i tried it i felt a bit like i was doing the wall of death as our school isnt the biggest but he soon got it and it made a huge difference.
As for turn on the forehand again very helpful but i had no choice but to teach them to him as to go out onto further hacking i had to do a couple of gates.
I would def try a few dressagey moves, couldnt pay me enough to ride a dressage test but i quite like using them at home and *whispers* they do help

 

[HeresHoping]

Just a thought...as no one else has suggested it. You said that 20m circles were a bit of a chore. And she hangs.

Do you lunge? And do you have an EquiAmi? Not a Pessoa, because clever horses will still hang on them and pull themselves along on the forehand (I know, I had one). As my boy is totally broken too, I am back to riding others' horses. One is a hanging, one-sided monkey, too. They've had him checked out and can't seem to find an issue (although I can probably list quite a few causes, starting with riding in poorly fitting tack for a very long time when he was just starting his ridden career - which has thankfully been sorted), so I've pulled out the trusty EquiAmi. It's less exhausting than trying to ride a horse that's not exactly forward off the leg.

The EA is great for the hangers. They simply can't. If they do, it pulls them up behind. It's also great for getting them to step under - lunge a couple of circles on three tracks to encourage it; also over raised poles on the circle. I find that 5 mins on each rein, with frequent rein changes, spirals and transitions, does wonders for getting them to improve their self-carriage. The difference the next day is noticeable - and the ability to do 20m circles significantly improved. I only lunge once per week, and will build up to 10 minutes on each rein, with frequent rein changes.

Otherwise, thoroughly agree with everyone else. And my instructor suggests aiming for about 300 transitions in a 1 hour period - including up and down the pace.

 

[monte1]

I completely know where your coming from with your issue. .........Dropping the contact does not work with some horses. My WB mare will go lower & lower if u do so until her nose is on the floor- she would walk/trot/ canter like this happily!.......lots of transitions & half halts. Don't let her wander, make her march In walk in warm up so u can really feel her stepping under you. A lot of riders encourage long and low (rightly so) keep this to a minimum with this type of horse. If she's like mine, she probably spends 23 hours a day long & low!!!!You want her to be shorter & more upright as opposed to vertical.......Iv rediscovered half halts & transitions recently & my horses jumping canter now feels so easy & light if u need spurs use them to get her jumping off the leg. Good luck

I know this is quite an old thread, but this is almost exactly my horse, he is built quite downhill naturally and will choose most of his time to be long and low, so dropping contact when leaning often does not work as he just lowers his head more and takes the reins. we really struggle to be uphill and off the leg and coming round. although he does try his hardest when he knows what i am asking and is very honest, will jump anything off any stride and doesn't do a bad dressage test. am going to try some of these exercises and maybe a different bit for jumping in as he can be so heavy in my hand at times. any other tips more than welcome. we do tons of transitions and they certainly do help but I often feel like two steps forward one step back. he is 12 now and had since a year old, if I knew back then what I know and have learnt now would have started him very differently

 

[only_me]

Not sure if has been suggested but the real turning point for getting bill off the forehand was doing canter to .halts
Initially the first few were pulls on the mouth but we can now do them by just collecting up the canter and asking through my seat.

Very simple and very effective!

 

[Farma]

I agree regarding bitting up - sure, it would be nice to ride in a snaffle but on this horse I wouldn't stand a chance. A 13 stone man might be able to, but not me. I'd rather bit up and be able to use more gentle aids.

It is difficult in staying consistent and I do think I have confused my mare a bit by probably letting her get away with stuff because she is such hard work and I get tired. Often riding after work at 8 in the evening in the rain probably doesn't always offer the best circumstances for inspired schooling.

I will definitely try some different bits, hadn't thought of a Tom Thumb. Considering a Myler combination as well.

And you are absolutely right, I have to be really hard on myself to not EVER let her get away with leaning/not being enough off the leg. Thank you.

I used to have a horse that did exactly what you have described and the tom thumb worked a treat, he was a different horse in it!

 

[viola]

Hello I would suggest adding 15 minutes a day 3 x a week of in-hand work with her.
Best done on a lunging cavesson with lunge line attached to the centre ring on top of her nose so she can't lean on anything in her mouth and you can place her head precisely in the centre of her chest when you want.
You can start with simply leg-yielding her both ways in hand to make her respond to your body language and also, by crossing her legs you can disengage her and stop her running on the forehand. After a couple of minutes, take her on a small (6m) circle in walk around you and observe her lateral flexion on each side. You said she is really stiff on one side so addressing this now will help preventing various micro damages she is likely to experience compensating for her one sidedness over bigger tracks.
Try to even up her weight through her body - if she falls in onto her inside shoulder and cuts the circle, ask her to move back out and transfer weight onto outside hindleg. Use a dressage whip to touch her inside hindleg lightly so she steps it well under her centre of gravity and into the footprint of the front leg on the same side.
Try 2-3 minutes of this work for a couple of weeks on each rein in walk to start with before you get on. Her neck should be horizontal (carried level with the wither or lower) and head always in the middle of her chest (if she is really stiff you will find yourself asking her every two, three steps to put her head "on the circle").

I wouldn't use any lunging patents as they are likely to make her find different chains of resistance instead of helping her supple up.

Once you have this done well in walk for 5 or so minutes on both reins (with equal lateral bend on either rein), then try the same in trot. You can be on a large circle but walk fast next to her so you can continue placing her like you did in walk). The key is that she bends laterally, relaxes her neck and steps deep under her body with inside hind leg.

After few months of this work you should see really good results but you might feel them much quicker...

I've done in-hand work with very stiff, very crooked horses and results, although take longer to happen, are fabulous. You will never need another lunging patent ever again, train your eye for weight distribution (which will as I am sure you know super helpful with shortening and lengthening over bigger tracks) and how to affect it well and you will have a much more supple horse in the long run

Oh, and you might find that, once straighter and more supple, she will be much less lazy!