_HP_
Well-Known Member
totally agree with this and with TeddyT about taking it slowely but firmly.
Why are people so willing to whip their horses in to submission
(not OP).Napping is usually an insecurity
Help......how do you overcome a seriously nappy horse???
- Thread starter skychick
- Start date
totally agree with this and with TeddyT about taking it slowely but firmly.
Why are people so willing to whip their horses in to submission
(not OP).Napping is usually an insecurity
siennamum
Well-Known Member
totally agree with this and with TeddyT about taking it slowely but firmly.
Why are people so willing to whip their horses in to submission
Napping is usually an insecurity
I hope you aren't implying that I whip horses into submission.
lialls
Well-Known Member
Same here siennamum.
Nappy is caused by an insecurity but once the horse works out that if it naps it dosnt have to do any work or learns that it can just go back to its warm stable with food and its friends it will always chose that optiune. They are herd aniamls.. so asking one to go out alone is not what they are used to and they will put up a fight about this, this is not their falt this is the humans falt for domescitating them. Napping is just their natural instinst to go back to their herd.
Nappy is caused by an insecurity but once the horse works out that if it naps it dosnt have to do any work or learns that it can just go back to its warm stable with food and its friends it will always chose that optiune. They are herd aniamls.. so asking one to go out alone is not what they are used to and they will put up a fight about this, this is not their falt this is the humans falt for domescitating them. Napping is just their natural instinst to go back to their herd.
_HP_
Well-Known Member
I don't think I named anybody did I?
brighteyes
Pooh-Bah
QR
You have to think like a horse and view it from his point of view. Whatever the reason for the nap, he feels he needs to do what he wants. You have to persuade him it's OK and probably better for him to cooperate. I can't blame a horse who may well have trust issues and a recent huge upheaval to prefer to stay close to where he has settled in nicely. Can you?
So, he must have you in his mind as leader, which doesn't necessarily mean brutal, but certainly firm and clear.
It's your job to make sure he is physically able and comfortable enough to have no pain issues adding to his reluctance to leave his stable and have achievable goals. You may feel safe in the school but don't bore him to death in there.
You may well need to reinforce your aids/desires with a timely slap, but patience and understanding and rewards should still take precedence over perfunctory/necessary punishment. Understanding will tell you which route or course of action will get the response which will last.
You have to think like a horse and view it from his point of view. Whatever the reason for the nap, he feels he needs to do what he wants. You have to persuade him it's OK and probably better for him to cooperate. I can't blame a horse who may well have trust issues and a recent huge upheaval to prefer to stay close to where he has settled in nicely. Can you?
So, he must have you in his mind as leader, which doesn't necessarily mean brutal, but certainly firm and clear.
It's your job to make sure he is physically able and comfortable enough to have no pain issues adding to his reluctance to leave his stable and have achievable goals. You may feel safe in the school but don't bore him to death in there.
You may well need to reinforce your aids/desires with a timely slap, but patience and understanding and rewards should still take precedence over perfunctory/necessary punishment. Understanding will tell you which route or course of action will get the response which will last.
jhoward
Well-Known Member
ive not read allof the replies.. but ime.. a nappy horse is a horse that will not go forward, ive always found that a water pistol shot straight up the jacksie, or a ballon being popped is enough to make the horse go forward. .
a couple of tings to bear in mind.. you may need somebody to follow you the entire ride, and able to see the second your horse hesitates so you deliverthe bang/shot at the right time.
ive always found a horse will shot forward you have to be ready to kick on, the general motion will send your body back wards, but make sure you let the reins go and kick on to reinfroce going forward.. it may happen at a canter.. let the horse for a few strides as its all about teaching that going forwards is the right thing
a couple of tings to bear in mind.. you may need somebody to follow you the entire ride, and able to see the second your horse hesitates so you deliverthe bang/shot at the right time.
ive always found a horse will shot forward you have to be ready to kick on, the general motion will send your body back wards, but make sure you let the reins go and kick on to reinfroce going forward.. it may happen at a canter.. let the horse for a few strides as its all about teaching that going forwards is the right thing
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skychick
Well-Known Member
Lialls, thank you for your post, i shall keep everyone updated about how i go about dealing with this.
The person who owned him before the girl i bought him from has been extremely usefull.
I have been speaking to her alot over the last 2 days since i started this discussion, to the point where she rang me lastnight for an hour to try and help me.
She said that my horse is never going to be a straight forward horse, but when she had him (she owned him for 3 or 4 years) he never caused her any problems.
She had one episode with him out hacking on his own where he napped, did a mini rear and tried to go home, but she said that all she did was when he went to do it was to turn him in circles over and over again untill he went forwards, if he tried to do it again she circled him again and again untill he got bored of acting up and just went forwards nicely.
She said that after that she never had an issue and used to hack him out alone on a long rein with no problems at all and a 10 year old hacked him out.
When she sold him, the girl who bough him....the girl i then bought him from came and tried him out with her riding instructor and really bigged herself up, as did her riding instructor and said that she wanted something forward going and sparky etc to progress her riding with. The owner at the time asked her to come back and try paddy for a second time as she was not apprehensive but was unsure if really she was capable of him. The girl aggreed but let her down just before she was meant to try him for a second time. In the end she bought him and then started off ok but then had a few problems. She then tried taking the lady who sold him to her to court for mis selling her a horse, because the lady selling had know this happen before she had distinctly put in the advert, forward going, not a novice ride etc and that he could at times be difficult. It then went on that she kept accusing her of various things, and then suddenly overnight changed to wanting her help, crying down the phone for this woman who she had just accused of mis selling her a horse to help her with him.
The woman who had sold her paddy tried to help her with him and help her sell him to someone suitable. She then went on to say that her dad was really hard up financially etc to really pile on the drama. As it transpires, when she put him up for sale in december she stopped riding him and wouldnt tell the previous owner who was trying to help her why. She was asking nearly £3000 for the horse which is what she paid for him. Which considering that when he was sold to her he had been doing BSJA showjumping etc, XC, fun rides, hacking out nicely both alone and in company was not an unreasonable price. To cut a long story short, she didnt tell the previous owner when he was sold to me, which really upset her as she wanted to keep incontact with the horse that she had had 4 great years on, and considering all of the help and advice she had given her i would have thought that it was the least she could do. I bought him for just over half the price she paid for him. The girl i bought him from was friends with the previous owner on facebook and when i bought him, changed her status to xxx is pony hunting again!. Which baffled the woman who sold him to her as she was aparently hard up.
Anyway.....that is the back ground on the transferr of this pony from someone who competed him regulalry and had few issues with him, to a girl who had him, couldnt cope and then didnt ride him alot. And now he is with me.
I havent been talking to the person that i bought him from but as i said i have been talking intensively with the previous owner who has so kindly offered to help me and give me some advice which i am most grateful for.
In our discussion last night, i asked a few questions. I had seen pictures of this girl doing huge XC jumps on him, in a hanging cheek snaffle, no martingale etc. When i got him he is now ridden in a martingale. I asked her if she ever needed on....she said no, i have never ridden him in a martingale he never throws his head up....to which i responded....he does now. Not badly....but he raises his head to a point where a martingale is "usefull".
I then went on to ask her about his teeth grinding habit...."what teeth grinding habit" she asked.....and was horrified as that is a sign of stress. Aparently he never did that with her.
The same with his headshyness....she said that he is not the sort of pony that you can grab hold of round his head and give him big kisses etc but he had never flinched when you go to brush his face.
So basically something has gone on in the 6 months between her owning him and me getting him that is probably contributing to this behaviour.
She is very upset as the only reason she sold him was because she needed a bigger horse to go an and do bigger BSJA stuff and already had a youngster to work on to bring on to do this.
She has given me advice what to do when he tries to buck/rear/napp etc and has given me lots of info about him and what he has done with her etc.
Because i havent done alot of riding of late and because i cant sit to a buck etc as well as i could before (my previous horse an arab was exceptionally sharp and could spin and buck in a split second....but he was sold 7 years ago and since then i have had lessons (not regularly) and have hacked out other peoples horses but not ridden anything sharp since my arab) she has reccomended that i get some professional help, as she totally thinks that he can be salvaged as although he has obviously done this in the past she had 4 uneventfull years with him and he was only with the person i got him from for 6 months (as opposed to years) so she thinks with professional help i will be able to get him back fine.
She has told me that he is not the sort of horse to go at with a whip. It will make him worse...but also because he is p*ss taking not to go down the road of long reining etc....she said that i could do that with him untill the cows come home...he is not scared (which i suspected as if he was he would have ditched me and bolted) he just needs to learn that i am boss.
She has suggested that i enlist the help of someone like Richard Maxwell.....(although im not sure i can afford the likes of him) but someone like him who can help me work with the horse to get him knowing that i am in charge without giving him a good beating and will (hopefully) get to the bottom of the problem.
This girl along side her degree is working with problem horses and wild horses so i think some of her advice could be really usefull.
I have to admit i am thinking of enlisting the help of one of Kelly Marks associates. One that deals with napping, bucking, rearing etc. There is one near me....Kate Reece (i am in Devon) who sounds like she deals with all problem areas and is also an instructor so she will prob get on my horse too and then assist me when i get on etc.
As i said.....i am not scared of him, i am apprehensive and aware that my ability to sit to a bucking bronco is not what it was ;-)
so there......that is how the situation stands now.......I am terribly sorry that has become an essay!!!!
So i will have to keep you updated on what happens next.
I was going to try and ride him in the school yesterday, just so that i get back on him and ride to see if he does it again, as i havent ridden him since. But yesterday it was torrential rain, wind and low cloud and you could barely see across the arena. Also there was no one else at the yard so i thought i would leave it untill a day when the weather wouldnt contribute to a grumpy horse, a grumpy rider and when i have got supervision etc. Unfortunately tonight the weather is looking the same :-( but we will see.
He did seem happier in himself though yesterday.
So fingers crossed this can be sorted.
The person who owned him before the girl i bought him from has been extremely usefull.
I have been speaking to her alot over the last 2 days since i started this discussion, to the point where she rang me lastnight for an hour to try and help me.
She said that my horse is never going to be a straight forward horse, but when she had him (she owned him for 3 or 4 years) he never caused her any problems.
She had one episode with him out hacking on his own where he napped, did a mini rear and tried to go home, but she said that all she did was when he went to do it was to turn him in circles over and over again untill he went forwards, if he tried to do it again she circled him again and again untill he got bored of acting up and just went forwards nicely.
She said that after that she never had an issue and used to hack him out alone on a long rein with no problems at all and a 10 year old hacked him out.
When she sold him, the girl who bough him....the girl i then bought him from came and tried him out with her riding instructor and really bigged herself up, as did her riding instructor and said that she wanted something forward going and sparky etc to progress her riding with. The owner at the time asked her to come back and try paddy for a second time as she was not apprehensive but was unsure if really she was capable of him. The girl aggreed but let her down just before she was meant to try him for a second time. In the end she bought him and then started off ok but then had a few problems. She then tried taking the lady who sold him to her to court for mis selling her a horse, because the lady selling had know this happen before she had distinctly put in the advert, forward going, not a novice ride etc and that he could at times be difficult. It then went on that she kept accusing her of various things, and then suddenly overnight changed to wanting her help, crying down the phone for this woman who she had just accused of mis selling her a horse to help her with him.
The woman who had sold her paddy tried to help her with him and help her sell him to someone suitable. She then went on to say that her dad was really hard up financially etc to really pile on the drama. As it transpires, when she put him up for sale in december she stopped riding him and wouldnt tell the previous owner who was trying to help her why. She was asking nearly £3000 for the horse which is what she paid for him. Which considering that when he was sold to her he had been doing BSJA showjumping etc, XC, fun rides, hacking out nicely both alone and in company was not an unreasonable price. To cut a long story short, she didnt tell the previous owner when he was sold to me, which really upset her as she wanted to keep incontact with the horse that she had had 4 great years on, and considering all of the help and advice she had given her i would have thought that it was the least she could do. I bought him for just over half the price she paid for him. The girl i bought him from was friends with the previous owner on facebook and when i bought him, changed her status to xxx is pony hunting again!. Which baffled the woman who sold him to her as she was aparently hard up.
Anyway.....that is the back ground on the transferr of this pony from someone who competed him regulalry and had few issues with him, to a girl who had him, couldnt cope and then didnt ride him alot. And now he is with me.
I havent been talking to the person that i bought him from but as i said i have been talking intensively with the previous owner who has so kindly offered to help me and give me some advice which i am most grateful for.
In our discussion last night, i asked a few questions. I had seen pictures of this girl doing huge XC jumps on him, in a hanging cheek snaffle, no martingale etc. When i got him he is now ridden in a martingale. I asked her if she ever needed on....she said no, i have never ridden him in a martingale he never throws his head up....to which i responded....he does now. Not badly....but he raises his head to a point where a martingale is "usefull".
I then went on to ask her about his teeth grinding habit...."what teeth grinding habit" she asked.....and was horrified as that is a sign of stress. Aparently he never did that with her.
The same with his headshyness....she said that he is not the sort of pony that you can grab hold of round his head and give him big kisses etc but he had never flinched when you go to brush his face.
So basically something has gone on in the 6 months between her owning him and me getting him that is probably contributing to this behaviour.
She is very upset as the only reason she sold him was because she needed a bigger horse to go an and do bigger BSJA stuff and already had a youngster to work on to bring on to do this.
She has given me advice what to do when he tries to buck/rear/napp etc and has given me lots of info about him and what he has done with her etc.
Because i havent done alot of riding of late and because i cant sit to a buck etc as well as i could before (my previous horse an arab was exceptionally sharp and could spin and buck in a split second....but he was sold 7 years ago and since then i have had lessons (not regularly) and have hacked out other peoples horses but not ridden anything sharp since my arab) she has reccomended that i get some professional help, as she totally thinks that he can be salvaged as although he has obviously done this in the past she had 4 uneventfull years with him and he was only with the person i got him from for 6 months (as opposed to years) so she thinks with professional help i will be able to get him back fine.
She has told me that he is not the sort of horse to go at with a whip. It will make him worse...but also because he is p*ss taking not to go down the road of long reining etc....she said that i could do that with him untill the cows come home...he is not scared (which i suspected as if he was he would have ditched me and bolted) he just needs to learn that i am boss.
She has suggested that i enlist the help of someone like Richard Maxwell.....(although im not sure i can afford the likes of him) but someone like him who can help me work with the horse to get him knowing that i am in charge without giving him a good beating and will (hopefully) get to the bottom of the problem.
This girl along side her degree is working with problem horses and wild horses so i think some of her advice could be really usefull.
I have to admit i am thinking of enlisting the help of one of Kelly Marks associates. One that deals with napping, bucking, rearing etc. There is one near me....Kate Reece (i am in Devon) who sounds like she deals with all problem areas and is also an instructor so she will prob get on my horse too and then assist me when i get on etc.
As i said.....i am not scared of him, i am apprehensive and aware that my ability to sit to a bucking bronco is not what it was ;-)
so there......that is how the situation stands now.......I am terribly sorry that has become an essay!!!!
So i will have to keep you updated on what happens next.
I was going to try and ride him in the school yesterday, just so that i get back on him and ride to see if he does it again, as i havent ridden him since. But yesterday it was torrential rain, wind and low cloud and you could barely see across the arena. Also there was no one else at the yard so i thought i would leave it untill a day when the weather wouldnt contribute to a grumpy horse, a grumpy rider and when i have got supervision etc. Unfortunately tonight the weather is looking the same :-( but we will see.
He did seem happier in himself though yesterday.
So fingers crossed this can be sorted.
skychick
Well-Known Member
........anyone that managed to read all of that with out being fast asleep.....i take my hat off to you!!! :-D
swalk
Well-Known Member
Well it sounds like you've made the decision to keep him and have a go at working through his problems. I really hope it all works out for you! Where abouts in Devon are you?
skychick
Well-Known Member
TBH....i am not sure i have huge amounts of choice. He is a cracking horse in all other respects...this is just a hurdle to overcome i think. Besides....i doubt i would get anywhere trying to send him back to where i got him from....and b...i cant sell him as he is!!! also having been passed around a lot in the past and only being in his old home 6 months.....i think i should try and get him sorted out so that we can go out and have some fun!....last week we had bags of fun, this week he has tried it on, temprarily won...but next week is a new week and a week where he will learn that he may be able to temporarily beat me....but i can call in reinforcements.....he cant! fingers crossed my theory works!!
skychick
Well-Known Member
PS....i am just outside of Honiton....sort of between exeter and taunton if you have never heard of Honiton.
lialls
Well-Known Member
I think you have done totally the right thing. I didn't know the full story as i do now and i think you are right to stick with the horse aslong as you think you can can handle this, you sound like you can 
I had a mare who napped badly, not rearing or bucking but refusing to move (even when being lead) and running backwards, no amount of kicking, long reining or being nice to her was going to sort it, in the end it took schooling her hard to make sure that she was listening to me and taking her hunting over the winter to get her going forwards. I never had a problem with her after that.
By the sounds the 2nd perivous owner is very helpful and she will know the horse, she is proably the best to take advice from as to how to proceded with this. You sound like you have a better idea of how to take this forward now after speaking to her.
When you over come this you and your horse will have a stronger bond in the long run. Good luck
I had a mare who napped badly, not rearing or bucking but refusing to move (even when being lead) and running backwards, no amount of kicking, long reining or being nice to her was going to sort it, in the end it took schooling her hard to make sure that she was listening to me and taking her hunting over the winter to get her going forwards. I never had a problem with her after that.
By the sounds the 2nd perivous owner is very helpful and she will know the horse, she is proably the best to take advice from as to how to proceded with this. You sound like you have a better idea of how to take this forward now after speaking to her.
When you over come this you and your horse will have a stronger bond in the long run. Good luck
RSL
Well-Known Member
First off I would have everything check to rule out pain, was there any reason why he was shod? could this have triggered something?
skychick
Well-Known Member
Thank you Lialls for your vote of confidence. I really do hope i can overcome this and get the gorgeous horse that i bought back.
But as i said, i am only going to do it with professional help and time otherwise i would have to admit i dont think i could do it.
The 2nd previous owner is being fantastic, its a pity she doesnt live closer to us, but she is really wanting to help and as she knows the horse any help/advice she gives i will gratefully accept/act on. I am extremely lucky to have been able to get in contact with her (it happened via facebook....and i identified her straight away as her jumping cross country on my horse was her profile pic!!!(so the horse couldnt have been that bad otherwise she wouldnt want to be reminded of him lol!!!!)) facebook can be fantastic! And was so pleased when she responded to the message i sent. She could quite easily have not replied and not offered any help, so i thank the stars that she has been willing to fill me in on all that she knows about him.
Thats great to hear that you got over your problem with your horse. Every time i hear that someone has worked through the same problem it fills me with hope that although he has done this alot....probably hence being passed about alot as people havent wanted to try and work it out, it can be worked through and hopefully will learn that it is not worth the fight, all i am trying to do is take him out for some fun in the woods!
I certainly didnt want to write him off over this....i know the next few weeks/months could be frustrating at times and i will prob have my heart in my mouth a few times....(or at least my mother will if she decides to watch!!) but if i can over come this i will have a super horse that has done a bit of everything who wont be passed around again from owner to owner.
To anyone else in this position.....if you can get in contact with a previous owner preferably the person who has had the horse the longest etc they will know them best and hopefully if you can get in contact with them they will be able to help you as i am being helped now.
But as i said, i am only going to do it with professional help and time otherwise i would have to admit i dont think i could do it.
The 2nd previous owner is being fantastic, its a pity she doesnt live closer to us, but she is really wanting to help and as she knows the horse any help/advice she gives i will gratefully accept/act on. I am extremely lucky to have been able to get in contact with her (it happened via facebook....and i identified her straight away as her jumping cross country on my horse was her profile pic!!!(so the horse couldnt have been that bad otherwise she wouldnt want to be reminded of him lol!!!!)) facebook can be fantastic! And was so pleased when she responded to the message i sent. She could quite easily have not replied and not offered any help, so i thank the stars that she has been willing to fill me in on all that she knows about him.
Thats great to hear that you got over your problem with your horse. Every time i hear that someone has worked through the same problem it fills me with hope that although he has done this alot....probably hence being passed about alot as people havent wanted to try and work it out, it can be worked through and hopefully will learn that it is not worth the fight, all i am trying to do is take him out for some fun in the woods!
I certainly didnt want to write him off over this....i know the next few weeks/months could be frustrating at times and i will prob have my heart in my mouth a few times....(or at least my mother will if she decides to watch!!) but if i can over come this i will have a super horse that has done a bit of everything who wont be passed around again from owner to owner.
To anyone else in this position.....if you can get in contact with a previous owner preferably the person who has had the horse the longest etc they will know them best and hopefully if you can get in contact with them they will be able to help you as i am being helped now.
skychick
Well-Known Member
RSL, i am going to get his teeth and back done next week. I really did wonder if it was to do with the shoeing. Speaking to this woman who had him for 4 years, she had him shod, she only took his shoes off shortly before she sold him as she wasnt doing alot of roadwork, she had alot of off road riding so didnt need them as her farrier said he would be fine barefoot doing the work he was i.e areana, woods, etc.
The girl i bought him from had him shod fronts when she first had him, but took his shoes off when she stopped riding him before xmas.
I put shoes on as although i have got off road riding.....i have to hack to it, so i do a fair amount of roadwork. The farrier commented on how good his feet were but did say that they wouldnt stand up to the amount of roadwork i am planning to do.
The honest answer is i dont know if it has triggered anything. This lady that is helping me out said that she never had a problem when he was shod.
I was going to give it a week of trying to sort out his napping, if he is still not back to his normal self, i am going to firstly take off his back shoes. If there is an improvement i will know that it could be those that was contributing. If it doesnt i could take of his fronts too.
If he is still the same.......then i know it is just being cheeky! But because i havent had chance to try and get back on him again (it is literally torrential rain again here as was yesterday...:-( typical when i could do with a decent couple of days to get back on track...dont worry i am not a fair weather rider....but i do think that when you are trying to address a problem thick fog and torrential rain dont necessarily help a scenario) or arrange the necessary help....i dont think i should take his shoes off just yet. He is definately not lame, i have trotted him up several times. He doesnt seem to be sore at all. So give it another week if he is not right the backs come off. (i would do backs seperate to fronts....as it has been about 8 months since he has had back shoes, but only 3 months since front shoes)
The girl i bought him from had him shod fronts when she first had him, but took his shoes off when she stopped riding him before xmas.
I put shoes on as although i have got off road riding.....i have to hack to it, so i do a fair amount of roadwork. The farrier commented on how good his feet were but did say that they wouldnt stand up to the amount of roadwork i am planning to do.
The honest answer is i dont know if it has triggered anything. This lady that is helping me out said that she never had a problem when he was shod.
I was going to give it a week of trying to sort out his napping, if he is still not back to his normal self, i am going to firstly take off his back shoes. If there is an improvement i will know that it could be those that was contributing. If it doesnt i could take of his fronts too.
If he is still the same.......then i know it is just being cheeky! But because i havent had chance to try and get back on him again (it is literally torrential rain again here as was yesterday...:-( typical when i could do with a decent couple of days to get back on track...dont worry i am not a fair weather rider....but i do think that when you are trying to address a problem thick fog and torrential rain dont necessarily help a scenario) or arrange the necessary help....i dont think i should take his shoes off just yet. He is definately not lame, i have trotted him up several times. He doesnt seem to be sore at all. So give it another week if he is not right the backs come off. (i would do backs seperate to fronts....as it has been about 8 months since he has had back shoes, but only 3 months since front shoes)
Cedars
Well-Known Member
I've not read anything past the 1st page so I apologise if this has been said lots.
He's only been there 5 mins, give him a second!!
Then when he's a bit more settled, I'd look into pain etc. Then I'd look at ringing the previous owners xxx
He's only been there 5 mins, give him a second!!
Then when he's a bit more settled, I'd look into pain etc. Then I'd look at ringing the previous owners xxx
Echo Bravo
Well-Known Member
I'd go by what milliger says, as it sound sensible, 10 days is nothing, give time to settle into a new routine.
skychick
Well-Known Member
Well, having not ridden since the incident on tuesday! (due to weather the fog here is so think you cant see hand in front of your face, and no one being at the yard when i have been) i have arranged to ride out with someone from the yard tomorrow and see what he is like in company.
Fingers crossed he goes well in company and we dont have too much bronking across the yard lol!!
My instructor has said that she will take him out a couple of times next week.
Lets hope he is good tomorrow at least it will be a starting point!!
Fingers crossed he goes well in company and we dont have too much bronking across the yard lol!!
My instructor has said that she will take him out a couple of times next week.
Lets hope he is good tomorrow at least it will be a starting point!!
galaxy
Well-Known Member
I would get his teeth, back and tack checked anyway. I think you have to to be 100% fair on the horse. He could well have gone flying in the field and hurt himself, my youngster did and suddenly the next day started bucking.
I had a client whose horse would buck horribly. When I put him on long lines, he also did it on them. So we spent weeks just long reining. It is easier to have the arguement with the horse from the ground than on top. Why don't you long rein him around the school, then around the yard, then down your drive and see what happens. I'm sure you said you love in the middle of nowhere, so I wouldn't have a problem hacking him out on long reins. Making him move forward, by himself. Bucking isn't really gonna get him anywhere if you're already on the ground.
Good luck!
I had a client whose horse would buck horribly. When I put him on long lines, he also did it on them. So we spent weeks just long reining. It is easier to have the arguement with the horse from the ground than on top. Why don't you long rein him around the school, then around the yard, then down your drive and see what happens. I'm sure you said you love in the middle of nowhere, so I wouldn't have a problem hacking him out on long reins. Making him move forward, by himself. Bucking isn't really gonna get him anywhere if you're already on the ground.
Good luck!
skychick
Well-Known Member
You can lead him/long line him anywhere even on his own.....it has apparently been a problem that with many owners in the past he has learnt a technique to ditch the rider and keeps doing so untill he gets taken home and gets to munch haylidge.
As soon as you get the better of him aparently he stops (this info coming from the girl previous to the person that i bought him from who had him for 4 pretty much uneventfull years, to the point where he was almost too laid back for her!)
I just need to get the better of him and get him doing what i want.....but giving him a hiding etc wont help. I need to get a technique to winning! Somehow!!!! Like i said in my earlier posts i havent done alot of riding for a while and so my seat is not as good as it was....so he knows that he can dislodge me!
As soon as you get the better of him aparently he stops (this info coming from the girl previous to the person that i bought him from who had him for 4 pretty much uneventfull years, to the point where he was almost too laid back for her!)
I just need to get the better of him and get him doing what i want.....but giving him a hiding etc wont help. I need to get a technique to winning! Somehow!!!! Like i said in my earlier posts i havent done alot of riding for a while and so my seat is not as good as it was....so he knows that he can dislodge me!
skychick
Well-Known Member
****UPDATE****
Yippee......we seem to be showing signs of progress!
After last tuesdays rodeo, on wednesday morning my instructor and her assistant took (or shall i say made an attempt to ) Paddy out on his own. He put up the most incredible fight, he didnt even get out of the yard before this started let alone the lane.
My instructor is an extremely experienced, competent horsewoman, who has never had a horse no matter how wild get the better of her yet. But paddy gave it one hell of a go. His napping, rearing, spinning bucking started in the carpark and continued down the lane. It only really became clear to me how much he fought over the last couple days, they didnt want to tell me the full extent as they didnt want to worry me yet. They literally clung on and sat to all of the bucks, rears and spins that he threw their way. In the end they rein backed all the way along the drive. There are steep ditches along the side of the track but he wouldnt go anywhere near them, so he has self preservation at least. They turned him round tried to make him go forwards and he went a bit then tried to ditch her again, so more reinback etc and then finally they got him going forwards and kept him going forwards untill they knew they had won. They then took him home.
I was told not to try riding him out without anyone else or on my own. It was that that let on that my instructor wasnt happy with him.
I didnt get to ride on thurs or friday due to weather and on saturday i worked and had a birthday party in the evening so couldnt then.
I arranged to ride out with a very competent girl from the yard and her horse on sunday morning.
When i got to the yard on saturday night to quickly change rugs before going out she was there so i was chatting to her and it really came out how much he had tried to get my instructor off! Then she said "i rode your pony today".....i thought "oh god, what has he done" but she was grinning. She had just got back from riding her horse and my instructor asked her to ride mine whilst she watched what he did.
To my delight, there was improvement. They got to the end of the yard and he hesitated at the gate, so she really kept her leg on him, and carried a dressage whip so that she could tickle him up behind her leg without having to take her hands off the rein. He went forwards, half way down the track he spooked (well used them as an excuse to spin around) at some rubbish bags, but she turned him around in a couple of circles, put her leg on, tickled him up behind her leg and he walked on, and he then walked on nicely for about a mile or so, so they brought him home.
I was really really pleased to hear this.
When i got to the yard on sunday morning, my instructor was lunging a youngster and called me over saying she wanted to talk to me. I thought "uh oh"!
She asked if i had seen the girl who had ridden him the day before, i said that i had and was really pleased that it sounded positive. She was really pleased with him too and she thinks that there is light at the end of the tunnel, and admitted that untill she had seen him go forwards, in her experience, a horse that determined not to go out, was probably going to be too much for me to handle. But now she is really positive and thinks that we will get him sorted.
I rode out with this girl and her horse and when we got to the yard gate, he hesitated, and she sort of hleped by saying, "leg on", "leg on", tickle him up behind your leg etc and he went forwards without too much of a fight.
I have been told that for the time being not to ride him out without carrying a dressage whip.....dont worry not to beat him, but just so that i can reinforce my leg when he tries to spin without having to take my hands off of the riens.
So i did and he went down the drive fine, albeit at a jog....but anything as long as we were going forwards and not bronking!!
Once or twice he went to slow up so i kept him moving and he didnt manage to stop or turn around. Plenty of leg contact so that he maintained a good forward momentum.
After about a mile or so we met some horses from the yard coming back from the ride, i did wonder if he would try it on then and try and go back with them but no he kept going nicely and was completely fine for the whole ride.
I was really pleased with him. I know i havent tried taking him out on his own yet (on advice really untill i have ridden him more and get more used to his paces and my seat deepens so that i can sit better to whatever he throws at me!) but it is total progress.
My instructor is going to take him out a couple of times on his own this week and a friend is going to go behind me on the ground if i take him out myself so that she can offer encouragement by telling me when to leg on, tickle up, etc and to give me more confidence by having someone there.
But i think slow and steady progress will get us hacking out alone and in company fine. Rather than trying to do too much too soon and it going wrong.
So........Lets see what the next few weeks bring. I am extremely lucky to have some very helpfull people around me that can help us work through this and get us back on track!
Thanks to you all for your advice and help.
Yippee......we seem to be showing signs of progress!
After last tuesdays rodeo, on wednesday morning my instructor and her assistant took (or shall i say made an attempt to ) Paddy out on his own. He put up the most incredible fight, he didnt even get out of the yard before this started let alone the lane.
My instructor is an extremely experienced, competent horsewoman, who has never had a horse no matter how wild get the better of her yet. But paddy gave it one hell of a go. His napping, rearing, spinning bucking started in the carpark and continued down the lane. It only really became clear to me how much he fought over the last couple days, they didnt want to tell me the full extent as they didnt want to worry me yet. They literally clung on and sat to all of the bucks, rears and spins that he threw their way. In the end they rein backed all the way along the drive. There are steep ditches along the side of the track but he wouldnt go anywhere near them, so he has self preservation at least. They turned him round tried to make him go forwards and he went a bit then tried to ditch her again, so more reinback etc and then finally they got him going forwards and kept him going forwards untill they knew they had won. They then took him home.
I was told not to try riding him out without anyone else or on my own. It was that that let on that my instructor wasnt happy with him.
I didnt get to ride on thurs or friday due to weather and on saturday i worked and had a birthday party in the evening so couldnt then.
I arranged to ride out with a very competent girl from the yard and her horse on sunday morning.
When i got to the yard on saturday night to quickly change rugs before going out she was there so i was chatting to her and it really came out how much he had tried to get my instructor off! Then she said "i rode your pony today".....i thought "oh god, what has he done" but she was grinning. She had just got back from riding her horse and my instructor asked her to ride mine whilst she watched what he did.
To my delight, there was improvement. They got to the end of the yard and he hesitated at the gate, so she really kept her leg on him, and carried a dressage whip so that she could tickle him up behind her leg without having to take her hands off the rein. He went forwards, half way down the track he spooked (well used them as an excuse to spin around) at some rubbish bags, but she turned him around in a couple of circles, put her leg on, tickled him up behind her leg and he walked on, and he then walked on nicely for about a mile or so, so they brought him home.
I was really really pleased to hear this.
When i got to the yard on sunday morning, my instructor was lunging a youngster and called me over saying she wanted to talk to me. I thought "uh oh"!
She asked if i had seen the girl who had ridden him the day before, i said that i had and was really pleased that it sounded positive. She was really pleased with him too and she thinks that there is light at the end of the tunnel, and admitted that untill she had seen him go forwards, in her experience, a horse that determined not to go out, was probably going to be too much for me to handle. But now she is really positive and thinks that we will get him sorted.
I rode out with this girl and her horse and when we got to the yard gate, he hesitated, and she sort of hleped by saying, "leg on", "leg on", tickle him up behind your leg etc and he went forwards without too much of a fight.
I have been told that for the time being not to ride him out without carrying a dressage whip.....dont worry not to beat him, but just so that i can reinforce my leg when he tries to spin without having to take my hands off of the riens.
So i did and he went down the drive fine, albeit at a jog....but anything as long as we were going forwards and not bronking!!
Once or twice he went to slow up so i kept him moving and he didnt manage to stop or turn around. Plenty of leg contact so that he maintained a good forward momentum.
After about a mile or so we met some horses from the yard coming back from the ride, i did wonder if he would try it on then and try and go back with them but no he kept going nicely and was completely fine for the whole ride.
I was really pleased with him. I know i havent tried taking him out on his own yet (on advice really untill i have ridden him more and get more used to his paces and my seat deepens so that i can sit better to whatever he throws at me!) but it is total progress.
My instructor is going to take him out a couple of times on his own this week and a friend is going to go behind me on the ground if i take him out myself so that she can offer encouragement by telling me when to leg on, tickle up, etc and to give me more confidence by having someone there.
But i think slow and steady progress will get us hacking out alone and in company fine. Rather than trying to do too much too soon and it going wrong.
So........Lets see what the next few weeks bring. I am extremely lucky to have some very helpfull people around me that can help us work through this and get us back on track!
Thanks to you all for your advice and help.
Puzzles
Well-Known Member
Oh dear ... no horse has been ruined by a rider being fair, consistent and, above all, understanding. I don't wish to go completely O/T but it needs to be stated that you have misunderstood the ways in which herd dynamics work. For starters horses don't use punishment, and usually only threaten - physical means are rarely used. They also don't communicate in this way on a personal level: they don't do it out of anger, because they're having a bad day, or because they don't like the other horse. They do it to keep the herd alive, and they do it in a way that all of the horses understand, crystal-clear. The incident is instantaneous and the 'offender' instantly forgiven and allowed back within the herd. There are no short or long term negative effects, and the 'offender's' reminder is not prolonged.
The pecking order works by each horse having a different role; them "bottom" horse is simply the most vulnerable, not the least worthy! The lead horse is so because it has the best leadership skills. The "middle" horses will also tend to pair bond to keep each other safer. The lead mare will usually guide the others onto the best pasture, whereas the lead stallion will look out for predators. This, again, does not work on a personal level, but ensures that each horse has a role that works for the best interests of the herd - which is what they ALL desire, which is to be safe. Thus they ALL benefit from it and they all WANT to work for it.
Whips are used to punish, make the horse go faster and gain the horse's attention - how then, is the horse supposed to know why it is being used each time? Whips deliberately use pain and physical force to make up for what teh rider lacks in mental strength and understanding. They are confusing, usually overly forceful, and often mis-timed. Thus the horse fails to associate the whip with the behaviour, so never learns, and becomes anxious as they do not know why the incident has happened. If whips worked then you would never have to use them more than once! They don't use the horse's own language and they don't teach the horse what the rider actually wants the horse to do: thus no positive behaviour or result can come of it. Whips are also almost always used with high emotion - as in annoyance, frustration, anger - which the horse finds frightening, confusing and threatening: a highly emotional horse cannot think properly, and thus cannot learn from the incident.
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siennamum
Well-Known Member
siennamum
Well-Known Member
I think you are hijacking this thread. Why don't you start one of your own where you can talk nonsense about how people only use whips to cause pain & suffering.
LauraWheeler
Well-Known Member
Well done skychick sounds like great progress. You are right to take it slowly but atleast you are heading in the right direction and it sounds like you have lots of nice people to help you out.
I must admit i had a small chuckle when you said your instructor rode him down the driveway backwards. I once had a 4yr old hackney in for schooling and he used to nap and try to scrape me off on the wall
For ages i used to hack round the village (about 20 mins) doing the whole route in rein back. My thoughts where at least we where heading away from the yard nomatter which direction we where facing 
.Anyway keep up the good work and maybe you can come and hack Horrid Herbie out for me
Keep us updated with further progress i'm shore you'll get there in the end. Well done again.
lialls
Well-Known Member
So glad to hear that you have made progress skychick! Finger crossed he keeps improving.
Finger crossed he keeps improving.
skychick
Well-Known Member
Thank you for all of your messages, i am really pleased that we are seeing progress and thank you all for all of your support, encouragement and helpfull suggestions.
I would like to just clarify Puzzles that i am not carrying a whip to beat my poor horse....a) i dont agree with smacking him senseless and b) if i tried he would go bezerk.
I have been advised to carry 2 if necessecary (one either side), i repeat....NOT to beat him, but just a gently tickle behind my leg to help reinforce my leg and keep him striaght....i am not talking about reins in one hand and whip in the other wacking him....if i did that i would be on the floor and back to a bronking horse....but to help him take a bit mor notice of my leg and keep him straight and moving forwards.
Thanks for your message Laura, i have to admit our yard is in rather a secluded place so not may witnessed the reinback along the drive....but you on the other hand people must have wondered why on earth you were going around the village backwards!!! thats made me laugh too!!
I think i will leave mr Herbie to you, i think you are by the sound of it 100 times the horsewoman i am! if you cant sort him i dont think anyone probably can judging by what you did with Lucy and how far you have got with Herbie. You are an inspiration to us all!
Although every time i read your posts about the evil pig it makes me smile! why oh why are most horses so scared of pigs!!!????
I would like to just clarify Puzzles that i am not carrying a whip to beat my poor horse....a) i dont agree with smacking him senseless and b) if i tried he would go bezerk.
I have been advised to carry 2 if necessecary (one either side), i repeat....NOT to beat him, but just a gently tickle behind my leg to help reinforce my leg and keep him striaght....i am not talking about reins in one hand and whip in the other wacking him....if i did that i would be on the floor and back to a bronking horse....but to help him take a bit mor notice of my leg and keep him straight and moving forwards.
Thanks for your message Laura, i have to admit our yard is in rather a secluded place so not may witnessed the reinback along the drive....but you on the other hand people must have wondered why on earth you were going around the village backwards!!! thats made me laugh too!!
I think i will leave mr Herbie to you, i think you are by the sound of it 100 times the horsewoman i am! if you cant sort him i dont think anyone probably can judging by what you did with Lucy and how far you have got with Herbie. You are an inspiration to us all!
Although every time i read your posts about the evil pig it makes me smile! why oh why are most horses so scared of pigs!!!????
Echo Bravo
Well-Known Member
Brings back memories of many years ago, when I use to shout LEGS! LEGS! LEGS! to the kids I use to teach to ride, to make them push a pony on and some of them like to remind me and then say it works everytime and they are in late 30's early 40's.
eggs
Well-Known Member
Congratulations, it sounds as though you are making real progress. Keep up the good work!
FYI I always carry a dressage whip when out hacking and like you it is not to 'beat' the horse up but to give him a tickle behind the leg if necessary, which means I can also keep both hands on the reins. Fortunately my current horse is not nappy to I have never had to use it on him but it is very useful to stick out at right angles at cars that are coming too close to us!
In one of Lucinda Green's biographies she recounted the tale of how someone had to drive the landy behing her waving a lunge whip as her horse was so nappy to start with. He later went on to win Badminton!
FYI I always carry a dressage whip when out hacking and like you it is not to 'beat' the horse up but to give him a tickle behind the leg if necessary, which means I can also keep both hands on the reins. Fortunately my current horse is not nappy to I have never had to use it on him but it is very useful to stick out at right angles at cars that are coming too close to us!
In one of Lucinda Green's biographies she recounted the tale of how someone had to drive the landy behing her waving a lunge whip as her horse was so nappy to start with. He later went on to win Badminton!
maisiemoo
Well-Known Member
Dito !!, when i bought my horse i rode her at the yard she came from out on her own no problem , but when she was moved blimey what a difference, following advice from the others at the yard we tried fighting with her but was apparently obvious that she was quite happy to injure herself aswell as her rider in order not to leave the yard, she is fantastic in company , really bold and safe with all traffic, got a natural horsemanship lady in who made me see things from my horses view, i was too stupid to realise that she was just plain scared , her whole world had fallen apart , now i go out with the other girls which is more fun anyway and maybe one day [ no rush ] she will be settled enough to venture out on her own, natural horsemanship has helped me build a great relationship with her just from working on good manners and keeping each others space, the dually halter has been the best thing i have spent money on since i got her. Good luck .