Help - I rescued a Patterdale!!

[Pattie]

Hi all new here and hoping for advice. We rescued a Patterdale 7 weeks ago. I am embarrassed to admit, that I did not know it was a terrier. We wanted to take the dog on holidays in our campervan and told the rescue centre this. They said he would be great. Now I don’t think so. As you can imagine he is manifesting all the Patterdale behaviours.
• High prey drive. He’s escaped through our fence which we hadn’t realised had a tiny gap in it. (He ended up in a foxhole and came out with superficial scratches which were bleeding.)
• Obviously, we can’t let him off the lead.
• He barks and lunges at other dogs on the walks.
• He pulls on the lead when he has the scent of something. He is so strong! I constantly have back ache. We are thinking of using a head collar to stop the pulling.
• He defecated nearly 4 weeks in and hid it under his blanket and started eating it when he saw me. He had been out 2 minutes before this. He had been house trained up until then.
• He urinated at the time and only a couple of days ago urinated over my laundry basket.
• He has snapped and drawn blood on the OH, and may have snapped at me but I gave him the benefit of the doubt as we had been paying with his ball.

I took him to the vet to eliminate any health issues. She didn’t even examine, she said he was as fit as a lop. He is walked 40 mins twice a day and we take him with us on a 3 mile run 3 to 4 times a week. The vet said that it isn’t enough exercise for such a dog. I also play with him and train him every day. The vet thinks he was probably used as a worker dog as he was into everything and that he is probably not getting enough stimulation.

I took him to a trainer; she worked hands on with him for about 7 mins of the one hour I’d paid for. Some of the time was discussing his diet, but she said he will be hard to train when he is distracted. I can get him to do a lot of things in the house and yard. I have some recall when on his long lead, unless he is distracted with a scent or other dogs. The trainer said he would be hard to train and it would take a long time. The rescue centre have said they would take him back and look after him as it does sound like he has been a worker. I would hate to take him back.

Does anyone have any tried and tested methods of teaching recall, stopping lunging and barking at other dogs and pulling on a lead? I have been researching myself, but all the videos show dogs that are quite placid and not too distracted. What mental games can I pay with him to stimulate him? I’m at my wits end with this dog. He can be quite loving, but is also very detached at times.

I am worried that I’m stopping a 2 year old in the prime of his life and trying to curb into being a very domesticated dog when he wants to be off in the fields. Sorry for the long post, but any help would be gratefully received.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Ok. First of all, pour yourself a gin and give yourself a pat on the back for getting this far.

Patterdales as a generalisation seem not to have evolved so far from their original purpose which I don't think is a bad thing, but wouldn't expect all of them to fit seamlessly into the average pet home when their primary drive a lot of the time is to hunt/chase/kill.

He's only two...thats still young. Have you thought about something that might harness his natural instincts, like terrier racing/lure coursing? Or even something like man trailing? Canicross or Bikejor? A lot of reactive dogs calm way down once they are given a job to do and something to focus on.

I mentioned Craig Ogilvie on another post who is an excellent trainer in terms of using toys and tug as motivation. My dog is a different breed but when he sees another dog he now comes to me for a ball/game as that is the link I have created.

And while the smaller terriers can't compete at IPO (the 1m hurdle and dumbbell are an issue lol) they can give it a jolly good go...

https://youtu.be/Of0tm5Vlbpc

https://youtu.be/KIBrQS0vCiM

 

[Pattie]

Thanks for your reply, I shall look into all of that.

 

[twiggy2]

2 nd Craig ogilvie for redirecting drive and focusing on play.
There are no easy was to train a dog that has learnt that following instinct gives the best rewards, that does not mean that it cannot be done. It depends on the individual dog and it's drive levels?
You may have to accept that some of the dogs behaviours have to be managed as they are not correctable- you just need to learn the best way to manage them.
There is a lot that a trainer needs to find out about you, the dog and any issues on a first consult and discussing food is a massive thing, so I would not expect much training to get done in that session. Did you work the dog or the trainer?

 

[pippixox]

how long have you had him?
I can see these issues are not easy, and will take time and work. But I can't help but feel you are panicking and you need to calm down and give things time.

I got a GSD aged 2 who was basically free-ranged in a barn for his first 2 years. He was not socialized with other dogs and had never been on a lead! It took time, but he was the nicest dog, loved everyone. Never fully got over other dog issues- but had some dog friends and we learned to manage it. Still took him to mountain bike events and on camping holidays. In the first month I had so much anxiety and wanted to 'fix' everything. But once I decided to just take things slowly and work at things little by little it was much better.

we lost him in January to cancer, after three amazing years.

we then got a collie in February who had never been walked in 2 years. Nuts and neurotic. But charity knew she was good with kids (we have a baby) and that she would love our active lifestyle. the first week was hard- she was very nervous, howled if we even left her to go upstairs, slipped her collar a few times. But in 9 months she has made so much progress and we would not be without her.

dogs take work. but you can do it and it will be worth it.

you are panicking, but think- all these issues could be the same with any dog of puppy. take baby steps and stay positive.

terriers do have a chase drive. He will need to stay on a long line when out.
even in the house practice recall and treat him and praise for him coming to you.
He will need to see the benefit of coming to you- as other things may seem way more fun! my GSD and collie work a bit for treats or toys,but actually collie is a breed that loves to please so even praise works. but I think terrier can be a bit less likely to accept just praise- they need stimulation.

i used to scatter food all over the garden for my GSD to 'hunt'

also I was recommended (and it worked to an extent) to teach the command 'find it'and drop food for them to find to distract them. So when I saw other dogs coming I would say 'find it; and scatter some treats, to get him into food and scent mode instead of defense mode. As when I tried toys to distract- he would get more worked up.

some dogs do not like being on lead around other dogs as they feel threatened- very normal. with time, practice walking near other dogs but at a big distance to stop reaction, then gradually get closer. if you know the dogs, allow a loser lead to help him relax.

 

[Alec Swan]

He's a Patterdale, he has a mind of his own which he's highly unlikely to relinquish and it wouldn't surprise me to hear that in 15 years time, you're still trying to get him to any semblance of obedient. Others will suggest all sorts of wonderful ways to change his character, but it simply isn't being realistic. Considering his breed, and his age, what he 'is' is set in stone, they're a dog which is purpose bred and short of a brain transplant, you will be wondering just what you've taken on if you're unable to accept him as he is. I wish that I could be more positive, sorry.

Alec.

 

[Pattie]

how long have you had him?
I can see these issues are not easy, and will take time and work. But I can't help but feel you are panicking and you need to calm down and give things time.

I got a GSD aged 2 who was basically free-ranged in a barn for his first 2 years. He was not socialized with other dogs and had never been on a lead! It took time, but he was the nicest dog, loved everyone. Never fully got over other dog issues- but had some dog friends and we learned to manage it. Still took him to mountain bike events and on camping holidays. In the first month I had so much anxiety and wanted to 'fix' everything. But once I decided to just take things slowly and work at things little by little it was much better.

we lost him in January to cancer, after three amazing years.

we then got a collie in February who had never been walked in 2 years. Nuts and neurotic. But charity knew she was good with kids (we have a baby) and that she would love our active lifestyle. the first week was hard- she was very nervous, howled if we even left her to go upstairs, slipped her collar a few times. But in 9 months she has made so much progress and we would not be without her.

dogs take work. but you can do it and it will be worth it.

you are panicking, but think- all these issues could be the same with any dog of puppy. take baby steps and stay positive.

terriers do have a chase drive. He will need to stay on a long line when out.
even in the house practice recall and treat him and praise for him coming to you.
He will need to see the benefit of coming to you- as other things may seem way more fun! my GSD and collie work a bit for treats or toys,but actually collie is a breed that loves to please so even praise works. but I think terrier can be a bit less likely to accept just praise- they need stimulation.

i used to scatter food all over the garden for my GSD to 'hunt'

also I was recommended (and it worked to an extent) to teach the command 'find it'and drop food for them to find to distract them. So when I saw other dogs coming I would say 'find it; and scatter some treats, to get him into food and scent mode instead of defense mode. As when I tried toys to distract- he would get more worked up.

some dogs do not like being on lead around other dogs as they feel threatened- very normal. with time, practice walking near other dogs but at a big distance to stop reaction, then gradually get closer. if you know the dogs, allow a loser lead to help him relax.

Thanks for your reply. Sorry to hear about your dog but you've done an amazing job with both of them. I will try anything, but everything I have tried on the walk means nothing when he sees a dog or gets a scent. He even pulls and looks longingly when we pass fields. He reacts differently to dogs, sometimes he only barks and pulls until they are out of sight sometimes he will keep barking when they turn a corner and are out of sight. I took a squeaky toy on the walk for a while and that helped to distract a little bit, but not when he was fully engaged with something. He's a very energetic little guy.

 

[Pattie]

He's a Patterdale, he has a mind of his own which he's highly unlikely to relinquish and it wouldn't surprise me to hear that in 15 years time, you're still trying to get him to any semblance of obedient. Others will suggest all sorts of wonderful ways to change his character, but it simply isn't being realistic. Considering his breed, and his age, what he 'is' is set in stone, they're a dog which is purpose bred and short of a brain transplant, you will be wondering just what you've taken on if you're unable to accept him as he is. I wish that I could be more positive, sorry.

Alec.

Sadly, I think you're right 5 professionals have said the same. They all feel he has been a working dog. He had a gap in his ear when we adopted him which means that this is possible. He certainly knew where to go and what to do when he got out!

 

[CorvusCorax]

Or you might get involved in a sport or activity that you love and meet friends for life....managing a dog rather than completely changing his personality/instincts (unlikely lol) and redirecting his drives doesn't mean you can't have a lot of fun with him. He's just not going to be a conventional family pet.

Here's a few tips about interactive play with your dog...its not just standing about
http://nickbenger.com/5-things-i-learned-from-craig-ogilvie/

 

[Pattie]

I've been out playing with him already. Good point you make about just redirecting his energies though. I have to admit, I feel totally out of my depth with him, I wouldn't have taken him had I known he was a terrier, the rescue just wrote Patterdale on his form. Now I've got the little chap, I feel obliged to give him a good life. Re-homing has been suggested, but I feel like I'm letting him down whatever I decide to do, well we decide to do, the OH is involved too.

 

[ester]

you won't change him but you can manage him and probably have some fun in the meantime.

Something I picked up from your posts though, don't feel bad for him that he isn't able to disappear into the wild blue yonder and go ratting all day. You aren't stopping a 2yo in the prime of his life or curbing him, just redirecting him to something he may well enjoy just as much

 

[Pattie]

you won't change him but you can manage him and probably have some fun in the meantime.

Something I picked up from your posts though, don't feel bad for him that he isn't able to disappear into the wild blue yonder and go ratting all day. You aren't stopping a 2yo in the prime of his life or curbing him, just redirecting him to something he may well enjoy just as much

Do you think so, even though he may have already been a working dog with his prey drive firmly entrenched?

 

[Alec Swan]

……..

• He has snapped and drawn blood on the OH, and may have snapped at me but I gave him the benefit of the doubt as we had been paying with his ball.

…….. .

I'm sorry that I didn't pick up on this point in my last post. Generally, the lunatic aspect to work-bred terriers is directed at anyone and anything but the owner. Mostly Patterdales are lovely dogs with humans.

The problem with dogs such as yours though is often that if we engage in 'play' then we are lowering ourselves, so to speak and depending on his upbringing, play could be seen by him as a challenge. I would put all thoughts of 'play' to one side, or at least until you manage to assert a degree of authority and even then, I wouldn't do it.

Over the years I've had several dogs which would have bitten me but learned how to prevent the situation arising and again, back to playing with the dog, I wouldn't be doing it with yours! If he's bitten your OH, can you explain the situation and how it arose?

Alec.

 

[ester]

Yes, and many more experienced people than me are always saying that with rescues you shouldn't carry their past with them too much.

CC really knows her stuff and I suspect if you were to find a bunch of people who were used to very high drive dogs doing the sorts of activities she mentioned you wouldn't feel so isolated and would find them very helpful.

 

[Pattie]

It wasn't during in play that he bit him, I think I can give the dog the benefit of the doubt as it was in the first few days, as I said we've only had him for 7 weeks, 7 today in fact. Once was when he brought him back after he'd run off and the other time the OH went to get him off his chair, we don't like dogs on the furniture, I think he scared him. I used to just slide him off. He's more ore less stopped getting on the furniture, but he was in a defiant mood on Tuesday and I was scared to slide him off when he jumped on, he had a look about him. He likes playing and though he mouths, he never sinks his teeth in. I stop playing with him when he mouths though as I don't want him to think it's all right. We haven't eally bonded with the dog, we just provide him with food and shelter and take him for walks LOL.

 

[CorvusCorax]

I'd keep him off the furniture at all times and use a light house line (nothing with a loop) attached to a collar or harness to remove him without getting too close to the business end until the behaviour is solid. Make his own bed or crate the most positive and rewarding place to be.

 

[Pattie]

I'd keep him off the furniture at all times and use a light house line (nothing with a loop) attached to a collar or harness to remove him without getting too close to the business end until the behaviour is solid. Make his own bed or crate the most positive and rewarding place to be.

The line has been suggested before. For the most part, he's good in the house, the worst thing he does on a daily basis is bark at everything, me tapping the keys on the laptop for instance. I just dread taking him for walks, I cut the walk short this morning as he was just pulling and pulling and pulling. I dread seeing other dogs when out.

 

[Leo Walker]

The line has been suggested before. For the most part, he's good in the house, the worst thing he does on a daily basis is bark at everything, me tapping the keys on the laptop for instance. I just dread taking him for walks, I cut the walk short this morning as he was just pulling and pulling and pulling. I dread seeing other dogs when out.

Send him back. This isnt the right dog for you. You've been given advice on how to manage him but not followed it through, and this dog with need completely consistent handling and training. Why make everyone miserable? Theres also a very strong chance that these behaviours will escalate until someone is properly bitten and then it will be curtains for him.

 

[YasandCrystal]

He's a Patterdale, he has a mind of his own which he's highly unlikely to relinquish and it wouldn't surprise me to hear that in 15 years time, you're still trying to get him to any semblance of obedient. Others will suggest all sorts of wonderful ways to change his character, but it simply isn't being realistic. Considering his breed, and his age, what he 'is' is set in stone, they're a dog which is purpose bred and short of a brain transplant, you will be wondering just what you've taken on if you're unable to accept him as he is. I wish that I could be more positive, sorry.

Alec.

I have to concur with this too. I have a Patterdale I took on as a rehome at 9 months old. He is 8 years old now. I cannot let him off lead in a public place, he goes crazy when he sees another dog even from the car window and is aggressive on lead with dogs other than his home pack. He is also fear aggressive so will bite anyone scared of him so I crate him with any nervous guests. He also has OCD and will pace and chew his own pads periodically. His latest obsession is our springer spaniel puppies ears, he drools over them so the poor pup has a constantly wet head. He gets lots of exercise, he is out with the rest of our dogs (6 others) at the yard for several hours a day and is a 'happy' but weird dog. He is very loving and popular with the other dogs and the family. He did agility for a short while, that was a challenge and a worry for me with so many loose dogs around in close proximity.
All that said I love him and wouldn't change him for the world, but would I take on another Patterdale.................no for sure. He's the most difficult breed of dog I have owned.

 

[Pattie]

I have to concur with this too. I have a Patterdale I took on as a rehome at 9 months old. He is 8 years old now. I cannot let him off lead in a public place, he goes crazy when he sees another dog even from the car window and is aggressive on lead with dogs other than his home pack. He is also fear aggressive so will bite anyone scared of him so I crate him with any nervous guests. He also has OCD and will pace and chew his own pads periodically. His latest obsession is our springer spaniel puppies ears, he drools over them so the poor pup has a constantly wet head. He gets lots of exercise, he is out with the rest of our dogs (6 others) at the yard for several hours a day and is a 'happy' but weird dog. He is very loving and popular with the other dogs and the family. He did agility for a short while, that was a challenge and a worry for me with so many loose dogs around in close proximity.
All that said I love him and wouldn't change him for the world, but would I take on another Patterdale.................no for sure. He's the most difficult breed of dog I have owned.

Gulp!

 

[Pattie]

Whoa, that I haven't followed advice is not true! We are taking all advice into consideration and operating the ones that we think are best for him. I have also been advised not to put him on a line as this increases his anxiety.

 

[Alec Swan]

It wasn't during in play that he bit him, …….. .

I didn't explain myself clearly, my apologies. When I said that with play, and with many dogs, we 'lower ourselves' — what perhaps I should have said is that we 'elevate the dog's status'. If he came from a home where he was previously controlled, it would be highly unlikely that he really understands 'play'. When we play with dogs, especially those who don't understand the concept, all that we're achieving is an unravelling of any previous discipline. Some dogs barely need discipline, I understand that, but there are those that do, and i'd strongly suggest that yours is such a candidate.

The same 'elevation' can be achieved by allowing some dogs on furniture, though I see that thankfully you're limiting such access. Much as I dislike the caging of dogs within a domestic residence, I suspect that in the case of your dog, it may well be of help.

Alec.

 

[Pattie]

I didn't explain myself clearly, my apologies. When I said that with play, and with many dogs, we 'lower ourselves' — what perhaps I should have said is that we 'elevate the dog's status'. If he came from a home where he was previously controlled, it would be highly unlikely that he really understands 'play'. When we play with dogs, especially those who don't understand the concept, all that we're achieving is an unravelling of any previous discipline. Some dogs barely need discipline, I understand that, but there are those that do, and i'd strongly suggest that yours is such a candidate.

The same 'elevation' can be achieved by allowing some dogs on furniture, though I see that thankfully you're limiting such access. Much as I dislike the caging of dogs within a domestic residence, I suspect that in the case of your dog, it may well be of help.

Alec.

Ah, I see. Actually, I like to play with him as it helps to bond with him, this is also proving to be difficult with him. We bought him a crate and he goes straight in it, he must be used to one. We put him in a crate when some friends came round as we didn't know how he'd react, after about 10 mins we let him out and he was going from one to the other rolling on the floor for a belly rub. He will bark at everyone and everything, especially people knocking at the door, but once when in his crate as we knew a service man was coming, he didn't bark at all. Can't leave him in his crate all day long though.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Taking him back is all very well but people are not queuing up for this sort of dog. The OP sounds like someone willing to take advice and put the work in. There's also no other pets or kids mentioned so it will be easier to control or manage his environment. So probably a better prospect than many other potential homes. But if you don't like him, fair enough.

I'm also not talking about playing for the sake of playing. The drive will come out somewhere. Better to channel it and you be the instigator of all things than let him be an unhappy, confused loony tune with no outlet at all.

 

[honetpot]

Lots of good advice in here from people who know this type of dog.
I have had rescues, and they are hard work, and some of the big rehomers are rubbish, so it not your fault. I would contact the breed rescue and try an find him a breed specific home, because he is not really the sort of dog that is going to be a family pet without an awful lot of work and management.
I had a dog that used to roam, lovely dog but over the years I had her we had more arguments and sleepless nights, when she would not come home. One slip by the children and the little s*** would be off to hide. I once saw her squeeze through the smallest hole in the wire netting in the garden, if I had not seen it myself I wouldn't have believed it.
You will probably only manage your dogs behaviour, it's doubtful you will never change it.

 

[honetpot]

Lots of good advice in here from people who know this type of dog.
I have had rescues, and they are hard work, and some of the big rehomers are rubbish, so it not your fault. I would contact the breed rescue and try an find him a breed specific home, because he is not really the sort of dog that is going to be a family pet without an awful lot of work and management.
I had a dog that used to roam, lovely dog but over the years I had her we had more arguments and sleepless nights, when she would not come home. One slip by the children and the little s*** would be off to hide. I once saw her squeeze through the smallest hole in the wire netting in the garden, if I had not seen it myself I wouldn't have believed it.
You will probably only manage your dogs behaviour, it's doubtful you will never change it.

 

[Pattie]

Taking him back is all very well but people are not queuing up for this sort of dog. The OP sounds like someone willing to take advice and put the work in. There's also no other pets or kids mentioned so it will be easier to control or manage his environment. So probably a better prospect than many other potential homes. But if you don't like him, fair enough.

I'm also not talking about playing for the sake of playing. The drive will come out somewhere. Better to channel it and you be the instigator of all things than let him be an unhappy, confused loony tune with no outlet at all.

I do like him, he's just a handful and I'm trying to find the best way to deal with him. Not sure what your last paragraph means, I should play with him, but on my terms or not at all? If I took him back to the rescue he could be there for a long time. He spent 6 months there, then went to a family for 3 months and they took him back. I want what is best for the little chap. If we were to give him up, it would be to a new home, one which is terrier savvy and knows exactly what they are getting. We're not at that stage, but he is going to be hard work, I do know that.

 

[Pattie]

Lots of good advice in here from people who know this type of dog.
I have had rescues, and they are hard work, and some of the big rehomers are rubbish, so it not your fault. I would contact the breed rescue and try an find him a breed specific home, because he is not really the sort of dog that is going to be a family pet without an awful lot of work and management.
I had a dog that used to roam, lovely dog but over the years I had her we had more arguments and sleepless nights, when she would not come home. One slip by the children and the little s*** would be off to hide. I once saw her squeeze through the smallest hole in the wire netting in the garden, if I had not seen it myself I wouldn't have believed it.
You will probably only manage your dogs behaviour, it's doubtful you will never change it.

I know what you mean about the hole! We have a half acre garden that has 6 foot fencing all around it, we thought he was safe, but he got out and we could see where he'd got out of. I take him there, but on his lead at the moment as we are making it terrier proof. He got the scent of something and was pulling to get under the fence in a different place, as I watched him, his front and hind legs went out at right angles almost and he flattened himself nearly flat on the ground. At least I know which holes he can get out of after seeing that.

 

[CorvusCorax]

I do like him, he's just a handful and I'm trying to find the best way to deal with him. Not sure what your last paragraph means, I should play with him, but on my terms or not at all? If I took him back to the rescue he could be there for a long time. He spent 6 months there, then went to a family for 3 months and they took him back. I want what is best for the little chap. If we were to give him up, it would be to a new home, one which is terrier savvy and knows exactly what they are getting. We're not at that stage, but he is going to be hard work, I do know that.

Yep that's what I meant. In fact everything is on your terms or not at all.

 

[Alec Swan]

Ah, I see. Actually, I like to play with him as it helps to bond with him, this is also proving to be difficult with him. …….. .

It seems that what ever you do I appear to disagree with you, but it's either a case of speak-up or shut-up! I hope that you understand that I'm in your corner though! :redface3::wink3: Here goes!:

As you're finding 'bonding' to be difficult it may be because you're sending out mixed messages. Playing and discipline when they're simultaneous (or near enough) may work with some dogs, but it seems not with yours. It's all new to him (or was 7 weeks ago) and by his lack of bowel control, by your descriptions of his conduct, which are well described, I'm again, and for the last time going to suggest that rather than trying to be his friend, that you organise the 'pack' hierarchy and when he's calm and well mannered, so you reward that with a simple acceptance of him. Perhaps try it for a coupe of days, and see how things go!

Good Luck, whatever you decide.

Alec.