Help needed pricing a project horse :(

Op I think you are wise to admit you are not the one to manage this problem and there is nothing wrong (and in fact everything right imo) with that. It's supposed to be a fun hobby, at the moment it sounds fun for neither you or horse. I've known a few nervey connies and they took a lot of time and 1 on 1 handling and consistency to get them to relax. Wish you the best of luck whichever way you decide to go from here
 
I don't want to p*** on your bonfire but there is only two ways you can bee 100% about his future, keep him or pts, sadly none of us really knows what's round the corner and a wonderful owner can easily be found but if there is a problem in the future you have no way of knowing where he will end up.

Not having a go as it's a very difficult situation but I think you need to be realistic about any potential future home.
 
He has done it once. I don't get why he is a problem horse and not a green one. He went hunting for the first time and it blew his mind. Not unusual. Still puzzled.
Do you think he was injured out hunting? Is that why you are going through the checks?
Sorry but I am really confused here.
 
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Kissing spines? I knew one who was adorable on the ground, the sweetest, most affectionate horse ever. Nightmare to mount, and would flat out bolt from time to time. The bolting got worse and worse, until the horse went through a brick wall. Vet found KS, operated, been a lovely horse ever since.
 
Thanks chaps89, all I can do is my best and see what happens I suppose. It is a shame working through the problems can be so dangerous.
LD&S fully understand, I have no issues with having a horse PTS rather than sell on and risk others. I would never sell unless i was 110% sure of the home and that he would be ok, and any issues were overcome. I would never live with myself if something bad happened, how dodgy dealers can shift horses with serious issues to unsuspecting buyers, I will never know.
 
dozzie, sorry to confuse you! I am not necessarily saying he is a "problem horse" , the line can be blurred between a green and a problem horse, when greeness becomes a problem. When a problem comes up, such as refusing jumps because of confidence, or napping at a gate for example, it's not too hard to solve with the right handling and approach. The problem is that I can't really prepare myself the same way as i would for a refusal to tackle the issue. You get weight on the back and that is fine, but he is just scared by the actual rider moving and he just winds himself up. As I've said a few times, it wasn't a problem before but he is just reinforcing his own fear by running off then getting more scared.

I had considered KS, the problem with such sweet horses is that they will put up with one hell of a lot until they reach breaking point, I hope this is not the case.
 
I was thinking more of the risk to the horse lol, I know what you mean, I cannot get my head round people who just don't care about the horse and or rider. Did also wonder about KS.
 
I would suspect his back. You say he gets frightened when the rider moves, maybe it hurts suddenly. He would feel a significant shift when you bent to pull up your sock, or lifted one leg to do up your girth.
Hope you get to the bottom of it.
 
Hoof_Prints said:
dozzie, sorry to confuse you! I am not necessarily saying he is a "problem horse" , the line can be blurred between a green and a problem horse, when greeness becomes a problem. When a problem comes up, such as refusing jumps because of confidence, or napping at a gate for example, it's not too hard to solve with the right handling and approach. The problem is that I can't really prepare myself the same way as i would for a refusal to tackle the issue. You get weight on the back and that is fine, but he is just scared by the actual rider moving and he just winds himself up. As I've said a few times, it wasn't a problem before but he is just reinforcing his own fear by running off then getting more scared.

I had considered KS, the problem with such sweet horses is that they will put up with one hell of a lot until they reach breaking point, I hope this is not the case.
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Sounds familiar! Running off and getting more scared! That is exactly what my chap did. Once I got his trust he would have jumped the moon for me. Anyone else and he would have taken off but if I said we can jump that he would have believed me and would have done it for me. That bond is special. Hope he finds his person.
 
I will keep you posted, and charlie76, I will let you know if he settles down enough to be sold safely as a project, hopefully we will pinpoint the issues and get him back on track. I hadn't thought of that Regandal, maybe the knock to the head has removed some common sense !

LD&S yes his welfare is very important and not to be compromised, he is so sweet natured and it's horrible to see a horse so scared. I will quiz my vet about possible issues when he is next out.
 
Apologies if this has already been covered but you haven't changed his feed at all have you?

My (mostly sane) welsh D becomes an absolute nightmare if given even a small amount of alfalfa.
 
I am glad he only did laps and didn't make an escape in to our fields! I will look her up when I'm back on my computer :)
Feeding wise, he just has a scoop of speedibeet and a mug of linseed once a day. He is on great grazing so doesn't need anything else, I have the back lady coming out but I know you can't tell an awful lot from the outside if there is something like KS going on, just wondering what is worth doing immediately before any work begins.
 
Hoof_Prints said:
I am glad he only did laps and didn't make an escape in to our fields! I will look her up when I'm back on my computer :)
Feeding wise, he just has a scoop of speedibeet and a mug of linseed once a day. He is on great grazing so doesn't need anything else, I have the back lady coming out but I know you can't tell an awful lot from the outside if there is something like KS going on, just wondering what is worth doing immediately before any work begins.
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Can you trace back his history and find out who backed him etc (assuming the dealer bought him over from Ireland?) They are funny these connies. Mine gets incredibly upset if I get badly off balance, you can bet that if I'm a quarter of the way out of the saddle from a bad jump or whatnot I will hit the ground as he will ****** off and its most definitely fear not naughtiness.
 
I have had a few young connies and they have been totally relaxed characters, acted like 10yos, however I knew they were broken very kindly and professionally. I went looking for a big connie for myself and the contacts I know only had small ones. I have contact details for who owned him from 6months until he was 4 it seems, and whoever owned him as a 4yo until he was sold to the dealer presumably, so that is worth looking in to
 
Hoof_Prints said:
I have had a few young connies and they have been totally relaxed characters, acted like 10yos, however I knew they were broken very kindly and professionally. I went looking for a big connie for myself and the contacts I know only had small ones. I have contact details for who owned him from 6months until he was 4 it seems, and whoever owned him as a 4yo until he was sold to the dealer presumably, so that is worth looking in to
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Young connies can be a bit quirky though. My last one was apparently a deamon to break, and spent most of his time as a 4yr old bucking people off. by the time he got to me aged 10 he was an advanced medium level dressage schoolmaster who was an angel in every way.

A good friend of mine also has many young connies and says they tend to go one way or other, either total angels or very difficult to break. she currently has 2, one was an angel and was out showing and competing every weekend as a 4 yrold, the other was very ver difficult to get to the point of saddling it let alone anything else, she was planted several times when trying to mount it, it didnt make it to the show ring untill it was 5 yrs old and its first show as soon as she popped her leg over it, it levitated and did a rodeo bronk impression drilling her head first into the floor.
2 years down the line it now is an absolute angel but it took a lot of work for her to get it to that point. incidently it was at the same time as I had the horse in the post above (who went through fences) and we ended up commiserating and helping each other a lot.
 
Try not to be disheartened Hoof Prints, I know it is hard. Get him through his health work up and fingers crossed he comes through sound. Then find the right professional to help both of you get going again. He isn't anywhere near a put down or proper project job in my mind. Neither will he be a quick fix but with spring not too far away and the summer to get him over his panic issues I really hope he will reward your efforts and care by settling down and trusting you.
 
I have a horse with mounting and dismounting issues that we believe stem from a failed backing. I traced a previous owner who bought him supposedly untouched from Ireland but she said when he arrived, it became quite apparent that he had been started and something had gone horribly wrong. He had two answers to being mounted- rear and go over backwards or bolt in blind panic. Lady sent him to a well known professional, who sent him back after 5 days and said it needed to be destroyed for everyone's safety.

When I bought horse (not from this lady, sadly horse had been passed about after this), I was told never to mount him from the floor. This didn't bother me as I don't mount anything from the floor. It became apparent that the horse was extremely nervous of being mounted and also dismounted. He is also petrified of people falling off him.

He will never be going anywhere, so what works for us is- we have a 'mounting routine' that he knows and understands. It involves me doing the same saddle checks/girth checks/pulling legs forward, a quick treat and and a head rub. I park him up alongside a mounting block and stand on block for a few moments above him. Then I mount, check girth and things and he gets another treat.
This keeps him settled, he knows what is happening and that no harm is coming and that it is merely me getting on. Dismounting we have a similar routine. He actually hates being dismounted in new places but I do make sure he is dismounted in a new place a few times a week. Basically, when he feels you starting to dismount and lean forward, he becomes rock solid and his head shoots up in panic. So again, he gets a treat, my feet come out of stirrups and he gets a wither scratch and then I dismount.
He understands this, and although he isn't happy about being dismounted anywhere but on the yard outside his Stable, he knows that once this routine starts, I'm getting off and he has to stand still.

A friend fell off him a few years ago and he will now not let anyone else ride him but me. An instructor who specialises in problem horses tried to get on last year asked asked if she could try and she did my usual mounting routine, but he went into panic mode and she leapt off sharpish! She was open mouthed when she watched me clamber on happily just moments later and horse let out a visible sigh.

I decided then that I'm the only one who will ever ride him again. I trust him and he trusts me.
It can be done, but it's a long process that requires a lot of time and trust.
Must add that he was checked by a vet and Physio and has no back issues. He does have advanced navicular though and is allergic to grass, so I can safely say that he will never go anywhere. He is as quirky as they come, I've had people tell me I'm crazy to keep him, but I love the bones of the stupid creature.
If anything happens to me, he will be put to sleep as I do realise he is not saleable, nor would I risk him ending up in the wrong hands or indeed hurting anyone.
 
Hoof_Prints said:
I am glad he only did laps and didn't make an escape in to our fields! I will look her up when I'm back on my computer :)
Feeding wise, he just has a scoop of speedibeet and a mug of linseed once a day. He is on great grazing so doesn't need anything else, I have the back lady coming out but I know you can't tell an awful lot from the outside if there is something like KS going on, just wondering what is worth doing immediately before any work begins.
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A back X-ray is not that expensive and then you know .
 
I had a big irish horse some years ago, that would buck itself onto the ground as soon as he felt the girth tighten. He'd obviously been roughly broken, so I took my time, and for 3 months would ask him to move up to a straw bale and just stand there. Finally got on him after that, and, although still worried about me being there, he turned into a real star of a horse. he was only 5, and some of these youngsters need plenty of time to sort things out for themselves. The problem is now, if you are tensing up and anticipating, that isn't helping him. I would def check back, but unless you get xrays and a ultrasound done of the SSI, you won't know what the problem is. I found this out the hard way with a lovely irish mare that I'd had for 3 years. broke her myself, and she was jumping DC's BE, and showed me no symptons of back trouble apart from blowing herself out when girthed. Turned out that she had damaged herself very badly, and had to be retired at 6. That was a freak accident somehow, we never knew how she'd done it. The vet suspected she'd got cast.
 
AdorableAlice said:
Scats, do you find stepping down from a tall block onto your horse causes less anxiety than stepping up onto him ?
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Yes, the higher the mounting block the better. We have a little wall thing on our yard that we all use, when I stand on that, my hips are level with him and he finds it much less stressful than if I use a slightly lower block.
I had him Xrayed as I wondered if it was kissing spines, but everything was clear and physio could find nothing either, so it does seem to be a psychological thing with him. Once I am on board, he is absolutely fine.

Part of me wishes I could find out exactly what happened to him in the past, to maybe see if I can help him more, but equally part of me would rather not know.
He was 7 when I got him and had had 6 homes in that time that we can trace. He is a lovely, lovely horse but there are major demons in his head. The longest period of time someone had owned him prior to me was 15 months. I've now owned him for coming up to 6 years. It's not been without its ups and downs, and he did nearly kill a vet (reared and came down on their head and they ended up having a seizure and being air ambulanced to hospital), but he's a very sweet horse.
 
My newly broken horse was a ****** for getting his back up when I first mounted and shifting off. We run up and down the mounting block, bang his back/shoulder and run back down. We do this 10 maybe more times until the horse is just stood relaxed.
 
Thanks so much for these replies, really has helped shes many different lights on the issue! Trying not to be disheartened and focusing on his good points, he came cantering up in the field to me today to be caught ( previously he ran for the hills!) and is now stood with his head over the door asleep. The day after hunting he was box walking in stress
I can see he has a calm nature, but it's been knocked out of him. He is not in the slightest bit spooky but goes on high alert. Interesting about the connies, I have had never had one that hasnt been an angel, and I mean could safely put a beginner on and they would do no wrong.

It is reassuring to know others have been in a similar position, ok he is being sedated for the dentist next week so I will quiz the vet about back scans then. I've not had him long but i have a real soft spot for him, he is just so adorable. He was very head shy and leapt away when you raised your hand to his head, so i taught him to lean in for an "eye-rub". He knows what "eye-rub" means now bless him, and tilts his head ready.
I watched videos of him schooling for the first month i had him, and he is really comfortable and bending correctly, working on a soft contact. He was a bit of a kick on really, which suits me! Yesterday he was heavy on the right rein, falling in and being quite forward going . I can't remember the replies now. I will go back a read!
 
How do you know it was the mounting that made him fly off? Is it possible he got a sting, or saw something scary out of the corner of his eye? Until something has happened several times, I dont think you can call it a 'problem'.
 
I haven't read every reply so forgive me if I've missed something. It seems to me that the OP is experienced with young horses. The current horse is bolting. her mother has banned her from riding it. Is it moral to sell it on? what if someone is killed or badly injured?. it seems there are 3 options here. 1. turn horse away, keep as a non ridden pet and think hard and long about why its doing what its doing and if it can be remedied
2. PTS
3. send to a professional yard with a totally honest description of what the issue is, for re schooling.
 
Hoof_Prints said:
Thanks so much for these replies, really has helped shes many different lights on the issue! Trying not to be disheartened and focusing on his good points, he came cantering up in the field to me today to be caught ( previously he ran for the hills!) and is now stood with his head over the door asleep. The day after hunting he was box walking in stress
I can see he has a calm nature, but it's been knocked out of him. He is not in the slightest bit spooky but goes on high alert. Interesting about the connies, I have had never had one that hasnt been an angel, and I mean could safely put a beginner on and they would do no wrong.

It is reassuring to know others have been in a similar position, ok he is being sedated for the dentist next week so I will quiz the vet about back scans then. I've not had him long but i have a real soft spot for him, he is just so adorable. He was very head shy and leapt away when you raised your hand to his head, so i taught him to lean in for an "eye-rub". He knows what "eye-rub" means now bless him, and tilts his head ready.
I watched videos of him schooling for the first month i had him, and he is really comfortable and bending correctly, working on a soft contact. He was a bit of a kick on really, which suits me! Yesterday he was heavy on the right rein, falling in and being quite forward going . I can't remember the replies now. I will go back a read!
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My irish mare got very "rushy" and found it difficult to collect up. All made sense after investigations.
 
Downton Dame said:
I haven't read every reply so forgive me if I've missed something. It seems to me that the OP is experienced with young horses. The current horse is bolting. her mother has banned her from riding it.
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I dont think OP said the horse was bolting. My understanding was that on one occasion the horse got tense about being mounted and took off. But it has only happened the once, and may or may not happen again.
 
Ok so I have a plan of action now. I had a look in his mouth today, he has huge whacking wolf teeth right where the bit goes, the one on the right is massive and very sharp. I am surprised the vet didn't want them out when he did them...
He is having them done on Tuesday by the best dentist in the area, fully sedated in case he is upset. He is booked in to have his back looked at too and a massage. He has a calmer added to his feed as of today, and lots of ground work has begun.
My friend is very experienced with difficult horses , she worked on a yard with bolting racehorses and eventers that backflipped, she is going to help me out with him under another experienced trainer that she knows, who has dealt with similar horses and has a very sympathetic approach.
When the vet comes out to sedate him I will ask him about x-rays for his back, and see what he recommends, my vet has competition horses himself and has seen most things by now.

We worked with him today and he was very tense, we brushed him and fussed him and after a while his lip started to droop a bit, and he even gave me a cheeky nudge for an eye-rub. It's a start, he will have all of his health checks done and then it will be a long road but hopefully we will get him back on track to how he was before. The pressure is off me a little which is a huge help, he has a chance. The plan is to re-break him completely and get him so relaxed he falls asleep when you go to mount. Fingers crossed... It will be a long process . If he ever tries to use bolting as an evasion or shows any signs of danger I will have him PTS for his own safety as well as others.

I will come out of this with a lot more knowledge, whatever happens.
 
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