Help! Vets & I are baffled.

[EquineHOSS]

So, In regards to my last post. Which I think was just pure worry of my new horse as I can’t figure him out at all and want to get him right.
had vet call out as he started getting aggressive with my mare, they share a field together and have been buddies from beginning, eating from same blade of grass to attacking her over hay. She has bite marks and lumps over her from him biting and have been separated. (but still in seem field so they’re still in company at the moment). Have a massive round bale once a week to make sure there’s always something infront of them, don’t get stables much unless weather is terrible and have lots and lots of hay to stay full. Get fed once a day, same routine.
I bought in August 2019.
Horse was only owned by seller from Feb 2019- August and was good as gold.
Long story short;

My horse had textbook ulcer symptoms as the vet said.
Grouchy for a gelding sometimes, sensitive to touch all over by the vet. Cribbed after feeding and stress. Started randomly bucking and exploding whilst brought back in to work slowly which never happened before even in new exciting situations.
Lost condition a little, does not like the saddle going on, swings to bite.
Had a new saddle fitted by master saddler, had time off to heal incase before new saddle and being brought back in to work.
Had dentist, physio, rehabilitation therapist.
Had him scoped, bloods done, back X Ray, watched for any lameness issues...
Everything has come back completely clear..
Also the scope went in further than was supposed to during procedure as he had quite a small stomach so was on opening of hind gut an was still clear.
.. has any one had anything similar?
Could it still be hind gut even though vet doesn’t think there is a problem there?
Is now going through poor performance tests.

Only thing that has changed is the saddle but it is correctly fitted. Which was fitted after time off and in December.

 

[PurBee]

The symptoms all sound ulcery dont they?
Despite the clear scoping, even having a peep in the ‘hind gut’ which im presuming to mean duodenum, id still bet ulcers further along the duodenum as its reallllly long on a horse and i doubt the scope could check it all out, yet its possible for ulcers there too.

Its a shame ulcer treatment is too expensive to just ‘treat for it anyway just in case’ so we prefer scope confirmation...yet scopes dont go far enough into the intestines to eliminate possibilities of ulcers further along.

If not ulcers, maybe parasites? Do you know worming history? Treat anyway as if he’s never been wormed. I once had a horse owner tell me “in all the years ive had horses never had a worm problem, youve got to treat them with the same thing, thats really important”.

Its sounds digestive/gut. Doesnt like being touched, is moody grouchy on the ground with other horse, and bonkers with a rider on board. I’d add a tub course of protexin probiotics just to help gut bacterial balance, it’s my go to for gut issues and never fails to help...have you tried that?

 

[Melody Grey]

I’d treat for hindgut- ulcers and acidosis/ imbalance. As poster above, Protexin would be a really good addition and ensure you feed an ulcer friendly diet.

there’s no way of scoping properly for hindgut so diagnosis is usually by ruling out other issues, which is what you’ve done essentially. Vets are not always open to hindgut related discussions- sadly, I have encountered many who just don’t consider it a ‘thing’.

there have been lots of posts on here over the years about restoring hindgut bacteria balance and medicating- have a google.

 

[Melody Grey]

Curve ball: have you any cause to consider urine infection/ kidney issues? Might be worth a urine sample?

 

[ycbm]

I'd want him treated for hind gut ulcers, as a test, with sucralfate. It's not legal, but you can get it from Abler.com if your vet won't prescribe.

If you aren't happy to do that you could try aloe vera, it has some good results in testing for ulcer treatment and is harmless and cheap.

.

 

[paddy555]

your other post said end of Oct. Many of what you describe are symptoms of pain and hind gut pain. (which is why he is nasty and bad to ride) That is secondary to something else. Oct. is classic PSSM month. Who owned the horse in Oct 2018 and what happened then? can you find out? A large number of vets know little about this. Few, unless specialists, suggest it.
There is tons on PSSM on here, lots of threads and lots of inf on how to treat it. It is a management disease and rectified by how you keep the horse.

As your vet has now ruled out the obvious I would get some equishure and give that twice a day to see if there is any improvement to the hind gut. You may notice he becomes slightly nicer after a week or 10 days which will give you an indication. Is he getting vit e supplemented? if not where is he getting vit e from? none in grass and very little in hay in winter. There is vit E in grass in summer. Lack of vit E makes a lot of difference for some. The other threads tell you what to get and where from. If low vit E is a problem you should notice a slight change within a week and more change within a couple of weeks. The change should be a nicer horse.
If you want to rule PSSM in or out you can test (by hair sample you don't need a vet) for PSSM 1 in the UK and for PSSM2 by sending a hair sample to Germany. There are PSSM groups on FB. There is a lot of info on there especially in their "files"

It may not be PSSM but unless it can be ruled out you go round in endless circles trying to work out the actual cause.
I went through several years trying to work out why I had a reasonable horse in summer and then October came. What was it about October? I have now been through several Octobers and winters without a hitch with a happy and very rideable horse.
Just seen ycbm's post. I have used sucralfate with success but not on him. However, to me, as with ulcers, hind gut is often secondary. (I wasted a lot of time believing hind gut acidosis type problems were the cause)

 

[EquineHOSS]

your other post said end of Oct. Many of what you describe are symptoms of pain and hind gut pain. (which is why he is nasty and bad to ride) That is secondary to something else. Oct. is classic PSSM month. Who owned the horse in Oct 2018 and what happened then? can you find out? A large number of vets know little about this. Few, unless specialists, suggest it.
There is tons on PSSM on here, lots of threads and lots of inf on how to treat it. It is a management disease and rectified by how you keep the horse.

As your vet has now ruled out the obvious I would get some equishure and give that twice a day to see if there is any improvement to the hind gut. You may notice he becomes slightly nicer after a week or 10 days which will give you an indication. Is he getting vit e supplemented? if not where is he getting vit e from? none in grass and very little in hay in winter. There is vit E in grass in summer. Lack of vit E makes a lot of difference for some. The other threads tell you what to get and where from. If low vit E is a problem you should notice a slight change within a week and more change within a couple of weeks. The change should be a nicer horse.
If you want to rule PSSM in or out you can test (by hair sample you don't need a vet) for PSSM 1 in the UK and for PSSM2 by sending a hair sample to Germany. There are PSSM groups on FB. There is a lot of info on there especially in their "files"

It may not be PSSM but unless it can be ruled out you go round in endless circles trying to work out the actual cause.
I went through several years trying to work out why I had a reasonable horse in summer and then October came. What was it about October? I have now been through several Octobers and winters without a hitch with a happy and very rideable horse.
Just seen ycbm's post. I have used sucralfate with success but not on him. However, to me, as with ulcers, hind gut is often secondary. (I wasted a lot of time believing hind gut acidosis type problems were the cause)

sorry I mentioned end of October in the last post because that was when I decided to give him a month off. I thought he had a sore back and I just didn’t feel he was right, the month off was November so thought would be clearer to say from then. Only noticed the huge change ridden wise when he came back in to work in December/January.

will have a look at EquiSure, I also have read up on PSSM 2 and will test for that to rule it out. He gets fed once a day too, even tried the Protek supplement which I was advised would help but were no changes. I am in touch with owners who had him in October 2018 and they also said there was a change in him when winter started approaching.

 

[EquineHOSS]

I'd want him treated for hind gut ulcers, as a test, with sucralfate. It's not legal, but you can get it from Abler.com if your vet won't prescribe.

If you aren't happy to do that you could try aloe vera, it has some good results in testing for ulcer treatment and is harmless and cheap.

.

Thank you for that, I think it is hind gut too. Is sucralfate just a supplement?
thanks for this!

 

[EquineHOSS]

Curve ball: have you any cause to consider urine infection/ kidney issues? Might be worth a urine sample?

I think if kidney issues it would have came up in the blood test.
Haven’t ruled out urinary infection but he doesn’t seem to have a problem going to the toilet at all.

 

[EquineHOSS]

I’d treat for hindgut- ulcers and acidosis/ imbalance. As poster above, Protexin would be a really good addition and ensure you feed an ulcer friendly diet.

there’s no way of scoping properly for hindgut so diagnosis is usually by ruling out other issues, which is what you’ve done essentially. Vets are not always open to hindgut related discussions- sadly, I have encountered many who just don’t consider it a ‘thing’.

there have been lots of posts on here over the years about restoring hindgut bacteria balance and medicating- have a google.

we’ve always fed him an ulcer based diet just because we were almost positive he either had them or have had them. Turns out his stomach is sparkling.
but I’m still not convinced with hind gut so will treat for it.
Will do, also have joined the ulcer groups on Facebook which have been brilliant.

 

[EquineHOSS]

The symptoms all sound ulcery dont they?
Despite the clear scoping, even having a peep in the ‘hind gut’ which im presuming to mean duodenum, id still bet ulcers further along the duodenum as its reallllly long on a horse and i doubt the scope could check it all out, yet its possible for ulcers there too.

Its a shame ulcer treatment is too expensive to just ‘treat for it anyway just in case’ so we prefer scope confirmation...yet scopes dont go far enough into the intestines to eliminate possibilities of ulcers further along.

If not ulcers, maybe parasites? Do you know worming history? Treat anyway as if he’s never been wormed. I once had a horse owner tell me “in all the years ive had horses never had a worm problem, youve got to treat them with the same thing, thats really important”.

Its sounds digestive/gut. Doesnt like being touched, is moody grouchy on the ground with other horse, and bonkers with a rider on board. I’d add a tub course of protexin probiotics just to help gut bacterial balance, it’s my go to for gut issues and never fails to help...have you tried that?

Yes definitely, still too many symptoms I think to say it’s not hind gut so will try and treat for that.
just researching what’s best to treat as some people say sucralfate but others are suggesting all sorts of brand names.
He’s always been up to date worming and worked him not long ago.
Thank you!

 

[tallyho!]

Oct classic PSSM month?

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I would overhaul his diet. His symptoms do sound very similar to a mare that I had who eventually proved to be reactive to cereals and refined sugars in her diet (it's a long time ago and it was usual to feed molassed coarse mixes - I know better now).
I would strip back the diet to just hay/grass, no bucket feed, no supplements, no treats of any kind.

If that doesn't make a difference, I would then feed a hi-fibre grass-based diet with aloe vera juice added in. that made a huge difference to my Westphalian who showed ulcery symptoms. In fact that's a good diet for any horse.

 

[paddy555]

I am in touch with owners who had him in October 2018 and they also said there was a change in him when winter started approaching.

definitely start looking at PSSM. Winter is more difficult for them. It can start mid October or later say Nov if we have an Indian summer. By then it has got colder and vit E levels have gone in grass.

When you tried to ride did you have an exercise sheet on?

I suggested equishure as, although it is expensive, I know that it works and it has worked for others. Some of the cheaper ones don't. My vet put a horse on sucralfate when he was in vet hospital and he was on it for several weeks afterwards. It was to treat a specific problem and allow the gut to heal. I am not sure you could keep a horse on sucralfate all the time. With the horse you describe you could need a supplement for the hind gut full time.

 

[Tiddlypom]

My vet has had a lot of success in treating hind gut ulcers using the non POM Succeed supplement, though it majorly offends her that she can’t work out just what makes it so effective.

https://www.viovet.co.uk/Succeed-Di...8e_dDj7yUhbRCnSWBe54J0sz2gglT3ixoCiQoQAvD_BwE

My own mare is one of the success stories, we were certain we would find foregut ulcers on the scope, but not a trace. Popped her on Succeed as a trial in case there are hindgut issues, and she's much happier. ETA Prior to putting her on Succeed we did a short Danilon trial which made her worse, Danilon aggravates hind gut issues...

 

[SEL]

I own a horse that goes downhill around Oct. She does have PSSM but my management over winter is a gut supplement as well as natural vitamin E. I've also supplemented vitamin D because it seems to help - must be something to do with shorter days.

I think with some horses you and up in a vicious circle of joint or muscle pain causing stomach pain. Then they hold themselves badly to compensate and it must goes round in circles.

I'd still get a 2nd opinion on saddle fit tho!

 

[ycbm]

Thank you for that, I think it is hind gut too. Is sucralfate just a supplement?
thanks for this!

No it's not a supplement, sucralfate is the treatment for hind gut ulcers. It coats the lesions, used for 30 days.

.

 

[EquineHOSS]

I would overhaul his diet. His symptoms do sound very similar to a mare that I had who eventually proved to be reactive to cereals and refined sugars in her diet (it's a long time ago and it was usual to feed molassed coarse mixes - I know better now).
I would strip back the diet to just hay/grass, no bucket feed, no supplements, no treats of any kind.

If that doesn't make a difference, I would then feed a hi-fibre grass-based diet with aloe vera juice added in. that made a huge difference to my Westphalian who showed ulcery symptoms. In fact that's a good diet for any horse.

his diet was tailored to ulcers as we honestly thought he had them so had never had sugar in diet, but we are stripping it back just to try! Thank you

 

[EquineHOSS]

definitely start looking at PSSM. Winter is more difficult for them. It can start mid October or later say Nov if we have an Indian summer. By then it has got colder and vit E levels have gone in grass.

When you tried to ride did you have an exercise sheet on?

I suggested equishure as, although it is expensive, I know that it works and it has worked for others. Some of the cheaper ones don't. My vet put a horse on sucralfate when he was in vet hospital and he was on it for several weeks afterwards. It was to treat a specific problem and allow the gut to heal. I am not sure you could keep a horse on sucralfate all the time. With the horse you describe you could need a supplement for the hind gut full time.

Thank you for that, definitely going to test for some sort of PSSM, maybe type 2?
I didn’t no, I never really thought about that. It’s still been quite mild for winter I find, only until the last few weeks it’s been dropping and getting frosty.
I see! I will do some more research on the hind gut issue then.

 

[EquineHOSS]

My vet has had a lot of success in treating hind gut ulcers using the non POM Succeed supplement, though it majorly offends her that she can’t work out just what makes it so effective.

https://www.viovet.co.uk/Succeed-Di...8e_dDj7yUhbRCnSWBe54J0sz2gglT3ixoCiQoQAvD_BwE

My own mare is one of the success stories, we were certain we would find foregut ulcers on the scope, but not a trace. Popped her on Succeed as a trial in case there are hindgut issues, and she's much happier. ETA Prior to putting her on Succeed we did a short Danilon trial which made her worse, Danilon aggravates hind gut issues...

Thank you for this, I was actually looking at succeed last night.
happy to try anything that will help him.
do you continuously feed your horse this or only when you see flare ups?

 

[EquineHOSS]

I own a horse that goes downhill around Oct. She does have PSSM but my management over winter is a gut supplement as well as natural vitamin E. I've also supplemented vitamin D because it seems to help - must be something to do with shorter days.

I think with some horses you and up in a vicious circle of joint or muscle pain causing stomach pain. Then they hold themselves badly to compensate and it must goes round in circles.

I'd still get a 2nd opinion on saddle fit tho!

saddler is coming back out in the next few weeks. My plan is to treat for hindgut in the mean time and build up his muscle again with the EquiAmi but still going with vet advice as they are still running poor performance tests. Thanks for this!

 

[paddy555]

Thank you for that, definitely going to test for some sort of PSSM, maybe type 2?
I didn’t no, I never really thought about that. It’s still been quite mild for winter I find, only until the last few weeks it’s been dropping and getting frosty.
I see! I will do some more research on the hind gut issue then.

most test for type 1 first but it doesn't really matter. From what you have said I would not be surprised if you came back with type 2 at t he end of the day.
If you want to work him then have you considered long reining? I did this with mine for quite a while before riding again. I long reined around the roads gradually building up the time. It removed some of the questions of the saddle or the rider etc.

 

[EquineHOSS]

most test for type 1 first but it doesn't really matter. From what you have said I would not be surprised if you came back with type 2 at t he end of the day.
If you want to work him then have you considered long reining? I did this with mine for quite a while before riding again. I long reined around the roads gradually building up the time. It removed some of the questions of the saddle or the rider etc.

thank you, I have just invested in an EquiAmi to start long reining and lunging again. Going to go from there again whilst I’m waiting on results etc.