Help with a big tanking horse!

[Pale Rider]

Immy please come ride big lad in a rope halter!

There is the bits are cruel group at yard, however they r happy to let there kids swing off the curb rein on a Pelham when they ride there horses.... But it's ok as they are rubber!! Also nice to know they can't even pull there horses to a halt for incoming traffic and nearly kill there horses. But it's ok As they are bitless!!

Oh dear, as I've said before it's training, you are not supposed to be physically pulling the horse to a stop, it's not a bloody machine.

These horses are now remedial cases, the initial training has been done very badly if at all, now we are dealing with horses who are ignoring the requests to stop.

 

[RunToEarth]

The problem with this is that, however much fun it sounds, it's a car crash as no one is in control.

Basically, it's training not bits or the lack of them that we are talking about here.

If you are just part of a stampeed, it's rubbish, often people think their horse is enjoying himself when in fact he is quite distressed. Horses crave safety above all else and mad gallops normally mean death if they get caught. They are not enjoying it, if you think they are, you are wrong.

I want my horse to go from gallop to a walk or stop, even in a mob, because I want that control over his feet.

It's hard to explain, but when a trained attack dog bites, it does so on command, not out of rage or hate or out of control, only because it's been asked to. It stops biting on command because thats it's training. If it doesn't stop, it's not trained properly, same for the horse thats out of control.

If you let them run out of control three times in a row, its a habit, so good luck with that.

I can't help but assume you have never been hunting from your description of it, I can't speak for bloodhounding because I rarely go but foxhunting does not consist of a group of out of control horse riders galloping aimlessly around the countryside.

I am not part of a stampeed when I am out hunting, my horses are in the gait I want them to be at all times, horses are not designed to be lone rangers and I expect mine to be able to behave themselves how ever many horses are around them.

I understand there is a school of thought where people genuinely believe that horses do not enjoy x, y and z, but I genuinely do not believe my horses are ever distressed out hunting, and that they enjoy it.

I would not do any kind of fast work with any of mine without a bit, they have been trained to be well mannered horses and I value the safety of myself and the safety of my horses too much to get on them without one in.

When this bit/no bit debate comes up, I often wonder what the reason is behind most insurers stating that your horse must be in a bridle with a bit for the insurance to be valid...

 

[Pale Rider]

I can't help but assume you have never been hunting from your description of it, I can't speak for bloodhounding because I rarely go but foxhunting does not consist of a group of out of control horse riders galloping aimlessly around the countryside.

I am not part of a stampeed when I am out hunting, my horses are in the gait I want them to be at all times, horses are not designed to be lone rangers and I expect mine to be able to behave themselves how ever many horses are around them.

I understand there is a school of thought where people genuinely believe that horses do not enjoy x, y and z, but I genuinely do not believe my horses are ever distressed out hunting, and that they enjoy it.

I would not do any kind of fast work with any of mine without a bit, they have been trained to be well mannered horses and I value the safety of myself and the safety of my horses too much to get on them without one in.

When this bit/no bit debate comes up, I often wonder what the reason is behind most insurers stating that your horse must be in a bridle with a bit for the insurance to be valid...

I don't really see the point of us getting in an argument, because we will never come to any sort of compromise. To me it doesn't matter what job your horse is doing, hunting is only a job, the horse shouldn't be out of control, but trained.

I notice in your signature you have 3 horses all with flashes on, is there a reason for that?

 

[mcnaughty]

When he does this are you in a position to really push him on and work him hard? Worked for us with our thug who used to take off after jumping a fence, pushed him on into galloping circles around the field and soon got fed up of that game!

He he - this one made me chuckle! I took my mare hunting in a dutch gag and "retired" after the 1st field! Pushing her on would have been interesting - we would have ended up in the next county or dead!

 

[RunToEarth]

I am not disagreeing with you, it is possible to train a horse with a bit.

 

[SplashofSoy]

RuntoEarth i absolutely agree.

In terms of training i have been reading the re-training of Denman diaries which have been in H&H where bitting has come up as he has a lot of metal in his mouth at this early stage but that is all about training, he needs to learn to listen to his rider etc and this can only be done in the actual hunting field and not in an arena.

Genuine question - how wouldyou train a horse in this circumstance where they would act completely different out hunting to training at home etc without being a danger to themselves, the rider or the field?

 

[Pale Rider]

I am not disagreeing with you, it is possible to train a horse with a bit.

Bits are really important in training, but this is where they are an aid to communication, not a brake or some gadget to keep control. Control should have been got well before people come to rely on hanging onto their horses mouth. Not a personal attack this by the way.

 

[Pale Rider]

RuntoEarth i absolutely agree.

In terms of training i have been reading the re-training of Denman diaries which have been in H&H where bitting has come up as he has a lot of metal in his mouth at this early stage but that is all about training, he needs to learn to listen to his rider etc and this can only be done in the actual hunting field and not in an arena.

Genuine question - how wouldyou train a horse in this circumstance where they would act completely different out hunting to training at home etc without being a danger to themselves, the rider or the field?

The primary objective is to have the horse listen to you not what is going on around it. If you feel it's going to be a danger you shouldn't be doing that, yet!

 

[RunToEarth]

RuntoEarth i absolutely agree.

In terms of training i have been reading the re-training of Denman diaries which have been in H&H where bitting has come up as he has a lot of metal in his mouth at this early stage but that is all about training, he needs to learn to listen to his rider etc and this can only be done in the actual hunting field and not in an arena.

Genuine question - how wouldyou train a horse in this circumstance where they would act completely different out hunting to training at home etc without being a danger to themselves, the rider or the field?

I think before you go hunting you need to take your horse to a situation with other horses around, possibly to a show, a sponsored ride, hunt ride etc where there isn't as much fast work going on, and they can get to grips with it gently. Hound exercise is always good, fewer horses, hounds - build them up that way. Going from being at home with a couple of horses around tops, to going out hunting with 30+ out will be scary, so if you can build things up slowly the horse is probably going to be much more relaxed come hunting.

 

[ImmyS]

The primary objective is to have the horse listen to you not what is going on around it. If you feel it's going to be a danger you shouldn't be doing that, yet!

Agree!

 

[Springy]

The primary objective is to have the horse listen to you not what is going on around it. If you feel it's going to be a danger you shouldn't be doing that, yet!

Your horse can still listen you whilst using tack including a bit otherwise there would be no such things as saddles and bridles and bits.

This thread as usual is getting silly.

As long as bits are used and not abused there is no problem.



Good luck hunting hope it all works out ok....

 

[Pale Rider]

Your horse can still listen you whilst using tack including a bit otherwise there would be no such things as saddles and bridles and bits.

This thread as usual is getting silly.

As long as bits are used and not abused there is no problem.



Good luck hunting hope it all works out ok....

Don't really follow this Springy, but Id agree that you shouldn't abuse a bit.
I like to use the cotton test, a piece of cotton between rein and bit, if you break the cotton pulling on the rein, your pulling too hard.

 

[cptrayes]

I like to use the cotton test, a piece of cotton between rein and bit, if you break the cotton pulling on the rein, your pulling too hard.

Completely impractical advice again as we so often get from you PR

Can I ask how many horses you have hunted on?

 

[cptrayes]

QUESTION

Genuine question - how would you train a horse in this circumstance where they would act completely different out hunting to training at home etc without being a danger to themselves, the rider or the field?

"ANSWER"

The primary objective is to have the horse listen to you not what is going on around it.

Answer the QUESTION PR!!!

HOW do you do that when horses behave completely differently in the hunting field than they do at home or out in less exciting company?

 

[Honey08]

If you are just part of a stampeed, it's rubbish, often people think their horse is enjoying himself when in fact he is quite distressed. Horses crave safety above all else and mad gallops normally mean death if they get caught. They are not enjoying it, if you think they are, you are wrong.

But horses play at scenarios - they do gallop about in the field bucking and enjoying themselves. Younger male horses often play fight. They love it and its learning. Horses often play and get enjoyment from things that would be scary in "real life".

Are you saying that every horse that runs on at a XC fence or on the hunting field is actually scared?


It's hard to explain, but when a trained attack dog bites, it does so on command, not out of rage or hate or out of control, only because it's been asked to. It stops biting on command because thats it's training. If it doesn't stop, it's not trained properly, same for the horse thats out of control.

.

The thing with the trained dog arguement, is that many many dogs are rejected because they are not trainable to that level. They test their nature no end before they start such training. Same for guide dogs etc. So really, this suggests more that dogs, as well as horses and other animals, are not all the same when it comes to training, and some need different approaches than others.

To me, to blanket catagorise all horses as being capable of going in the same bit/tack etc is treating them like machines and not understanding them and their individual needs..

 

[AdorableAlice]

If you are just part of a stampeed, it's rubbish, often people think their horse is enjoying himself when in fact he is quite distressed. Horses crave safety above all else and mad gallops normally mean death if they get caught. They are not enjoying it, if you think they are, you are wrong.
.

Well thats it then, 22 seasons of being cruel to my horses, shame on me.

If my horses hated it why did they sulk when the lorry left without them ? Why, in old age and retired did the horse hedge hop if he heard hounds in the distance ? why, when unboxing a mile from the meet and hacking on did the horse have a squeal and bunny hop down the lane ? maybe he was terrified ?

Enlighten me - what do horses enjoy and how does one gauge happiness in a horse ? - answer in plain english as I am quite dim and please no carrot sticks or riding with a bit of string.

 

[monkeybum13]

Well thats it then, 22 seasons of being cruel to my horses, shame on me.

If my horses hated it why did they sulk when the lorry left without them ? Why, in old age and retired did the horse hedge hop if he heard hounds in the distance ? why, when unboxing a mile from the meet and hacking on did the horse have a squeal and bunny hop down the lane ? maybe he was terrified ?

Enlighten me - what do horses enjoy and how does one gauge happiness in a horse ? - answer in plain english as I am quite dim and please no carrot sticks or riding with a bit of string.

Last Saturday the hounds went passed our trailer on the way to the meet, I was getting myself ready and mum was holding the horse, daft horse got free as she didn't want to the hounds to go without her.

She is clearly very distressed by hunting!!

 

[paddi22]

I love bitless, but i would hold my hands up and say in 30 years experience i have never seen anyone manage to properly ride a forward going competitive horse over cross country event in one.

I would eat my hat if I had ever even seen a video or heard of someone doing it successfully . I have seen people (myself included) ride average horses bitless over cross country fences, but nothing that i would consider a proper, brave, forward competitive horse.

I have an ISH whose joy in life is running towards and getting over any fence, ditch or obstacle in front of him, he is athletic and he loves the challenge. The only job I have on him is to bring him back on his hocks and slow and focus for tricky combinations - much as i would love it, there is no way i can do this bitless.

And i think it's rubbish to say brave forward horses are just caught in some kind of stampede/herd nonsense. My lad would run and jump fences in an empty arena, he just enjoys it.

 

[cptrayes]

Mine is so distressed by hunting that the moment the hounds leave the check to go to the start of the next leg, he'll leave the entire field to follow them unless I hold him back, because he knows once the hounds leave, we are soon going to get another run. He must hate it so

 

[ImmyS]

I love bitless, but i would hold my hands up and say in 30 years experience i have never seen anyone manage to properly ride a forward going competitive horse over cross country event in one.

I would eat my hat if I had ever even seen a video or heard of someone doing it successfully . I have seen people (myself included) ride average horses bitless over cross country fences, but nothing that i would consider a proper, brave, forward competitive horse.
.

Would this count? http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gJSninXjfVM

 

[Ahrena]

I used to hunt my old mare in a dr cooks bit less bridle which i think is one of the mildervones? I am happy to be corrected.

She was a star, really knew her job, jumped e drugging but didn't pull.

But i had to hunt my other horse in a3 ring gag on the bottom ring with a flash and martingale.

Different horses need different tack. I have another who, when focused, listens to seat aids completely to stop. But i often ride her in a kimblewick because when she loses focus i have no hope stopping in a snaffle. Have tried to reschool her with various pros over the years and it hasn't worked, she is happy in that and i can enjoy her.

Horses for courses

 

[Auslander]

Would this count? http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gJSninXjfVM

Not really - Paddi did specify brave, forward competition horse. This is a perfectly nice horse, but fits her former category, rather than the latter.

A proper cross country horse needs to be bold enough and clever enough to figure things out for himself, and keep going, even when the chips are down. More often than that. a horse like that will be tricky, quirky and/or opinionated - and most riders will put up with that, because the horses bravery and boldness are worth suffering a bit for!

I applaud your youthful enthusiasm - I really do, but seriously - bitless is only one answer, and its not always the right one. Take what you need from the experience, but try not to be blinkered about it. Many roads lead to Rome!

 

[Pale Rider]

Completely impractical advice again as we so often get from you PR

Can I ask how many horses you have hunted on?

I'm sure we've been down this road and the problems you have before CP.

I don't know how many horses I've hunted on, we were all pretty keen when I was young. Not been in the last 20 yrs as I'm now against blood sports, and don't see eye to eye with most people I know who have carried on with it.

My view is that the horses are pretty much secondary to people who hunt, where it's "all about me''. I just don't like hunting and find the social side of it excruciating. I have my own view on your horsemanship, where you do what you do.

I'm content to ignore it.

 

[BeesKnees]

Would this count? http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gJSninXjfVM

Ok so that's someone riding a calm looking horse cross country bitless. And clearly having to take a big pull at some points, to collect the horse up. Just like someone would when riding with a bit. just using pressure or even discomfort if you like, on different parts of the horse's head.

No difference in riding styles, or any 'riding just from the seat and legs'.

 

[guido16]

I'm sure we've been down this road and the problems you have before CP.

I don't know how many horses I've hunted on, we were all pretty keen when I was young. Not been in the last 20 yrs as I'm now against blood sports, and don't see eye to eye with most people I know who have carried on with it.

My view is that the horses are pretty much secondary to people who hunt, where it's "all about me''. I just don't like hunting and find the social side of it excruciating. I have my own view on your horsemanship, where you do what you do.

I'm content to ignore it.

I hunted and my horse was far from "secondary" to me.
She was a strong ID and I hunted in a gag for hers and my safety. We usually lived in a snaffle whilst schooling, a Waterford whilst doing XC and every 6 months or so she spent a day in a double to remind her of her manners.
She was schooled by a top dressage rider and her manners were to die for.
We even did a stint in a bit less which to me was more severe than any other set up.

When hunting or doing XC she was a different horse. So excited, loved her job but needed to remain safe.

Was she secondary to me? No. She was my life. Which is probably why, when she was PTS last month, I spent an hour crying next to her body in the snow at 11pm, sitting on me knees wondering how the hell I was going to live without her.

Your view of people who hunt has clearly been blinkered by a few.

 

[Pale Rider]

Your view of people who hunt has clearly been blinkered by a few.

I'd agree with that.

 

[AmyMay]

Great vid, Immys. It goes to show that the type of bridle and bits we use are really important to a horses way of going, and out control of them. She had a super steady round, in a great rhythem - just what everyone wants from their xc round.

 

[Jesstickle]

I would rather soil myself than hunt something as placid and steady that it could be hunted safely in a rope halter, to be honest with you I am not sure such thing exists.
As wonderful as it is to have a well schooled, well mannered and responsive horse, I maintain that anything, no matter its schooling, has the potential to get hot and strong in fast company, particularly hunting.

RTE this is hilarious and I love it!

I can hunt my big lad in his snaffle but he is effing strong (the only time in his life he ever pulls, most of the time he is the most backward thinking creature in the world!) and the only reason that isn't a problem for me is that I am used to pullers. I wouldn't recommend other people took him out in his snaffle, I'd probably pop something a bit stronger on for them.

He's very mannerly to ride day to day but even he, thick as he is, gets a bit more interested when hounds are about. I'd rather a stronger bit and some brakes than horses haring about all over the place out of control!

ETS: he is not secondary to me. He loves hunting. Probably more than I do to be honest. It's his favourite thing in the world so we go. He is so not secondary to me that despite being worth a sensible ish amount of money these days I refuse to sell him and therefore he only goes out on loan even though I really have no time for him and could seriously do with the cash I would get from flogging him!

 

[cptrayes]

I'm sure we've been down this road and the problems you have before CP.

I don't have any problems PR, just a great and very brave horse. I take it from your answer that you have never hunted even one horse which you could ride with cotton attaching the reins, never mind being able to find ten or twenty of them and no failures?

I don't know how many horses I've hunted on, we were all pretty keen when I was young. Not been in the last 20 yrs as I'm now against blood sports, and don't see eye to eye with most people I know who have carried on with it.

Why do you assume I hunt live quarry? I don't.

My view is that the horses are pretty much secondary to people who hunt, where it's "all about me''.

I find your view offensive.

I'm content to ignore it.

I notice that you are also content to ignore questions that you cannot or do not want to answer.

 

[flump]

Wow didn't want this to turn into an argument, don't want to start a new thread tbh. So will ask on Here if people think the NS elevator bit would be suitable? Don't really want to spend £££ if it's gonna be no good!