Help with a big tanking horse!

[_GG_]

I am going to throw a great big can of worms in the mix here...

It sounds wonderful on the surface to have our horses so focused on us that they are always calm and responsive. I am sure it feels amazing to ride a horse that is like that, because we have worked so hard to mould the horse that way, through schooling, to be totally focused on us and able to maintain that focus in even the most exciting/distressing situations.

Well, I don't think that is all that great. I don't care to get into a debate about hunting, cross country or anything specific. I just want to know...

What is the motivation to have our horses behave so well and be so in tune with us all of the time and in any situation?

I have asked a few people locally who ride this way and the answers are all based around the desire to make things as natural and comfortable to the horse as possible. To do what is best for the horse, not control it by the force of pulling on a bit etc...

Well, I happen to think it is unnatural to deny a horse it's right to experience it's natural responses. I don't want a horse to be so well trained that it has no reaction to outside stimulus. That is not natural. If a horse sees another horse galloping in a nearby field...I want it to get excited if that is what it wants to do.
If that is on the hunting field as well, so be it.

If a horse is naturally quiet and chilled, great. But if it is not, I think it is inherently wrong to want to try and change it to suit our own agendas.

Of course we should all strive to use correct schooling and training to ensure that our horses listen to us in order to be safe for both us and them, but not to the degree that we take away their natural reactions.

If we want to ride them, great, make it safe for that to happen, but not at the expense of allowing a horse to be a horse.

 

[Pale Rider]

I don't have any problems PR, just a great and very brave horse. I take it from your answer that you have never hunted even one horse which you could ride with cotton attaching the reins, never mind being able to find ten or twenty of them and no failures?

No problems CP, how lucky you are,

I know I don't explain things well at times, but I'm sure you go out of your way to mis construe what I say or change the context in an attempt to be really smart.

I notice that you seem to spend a fair bit of time being offended by my posts, I'm sorry about that I have no wish to offend an elderly lady such as yourself, but you really need to get out more.





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[_GG_]

Wow didn't want this to turn into an argument, don't want to start a new thread tbh. So will ask on Here if people think the NS elevator bit would be suitable? Don't really want to spend £££ if it's gonna be no good!

Use the bit bank and try it out.

My TB has a small mouth and massive tongue. She is very soft mouthed now, despite racing for 5 years, but bitting was a problem. Thin bars were too harsh, thick bars left no room. I tried the NS Verbindend which has a large tongue groove and she absolutely loves it. She is in a loosely fitted cavesson, no flash, no martingale and she works beautifully in it.

She was good before, but now she is so happy, I cannot recommend the bit highly enough for horses with her fat tongue, small mouth problem.

 

[Pale Rider]

I am going to throw a great big can of worms in the mix here...

It sounds wonderful on the surface to have our horses so focused on us that they are always calm and responsive. I am sure it feels amazing to ride a horse that is like that, because we have worked so hard to mould the horse that way, through schooling, to be totally focused on us and able to maintain that focus in even the most exciting/distressing situations.

Well, I don't think that is all that great. I don't care to get into a debate about hunting, cross country or anything specific. I just want to know...

What is the motivation to have our horses behave so well and be so in tune with us all of the time and in any situation?

I have asked a few people locally who ride this way and the answers are all based around the desire to make things as natural and comfortable to the horse as possible. To do what is best for the horse, not control it by the force of pulling on a bit etc...

Well, I happen to think it is unnatural to deny a horse it's right to experience it's natural responses. I don't want a horse to be so well trained that it has no reaction to outside stimulus. That is not natural. If a horse sees another horse galloping in a nearby field...I want it to get excited if that is what it wants to do.
If that is on the hunting field as well, so be it.

If a horse is naturally quiet and chilled, great. But if it is not, I think it is inherently wrong to want to try and change it to suit our own agendas.

Of course we should all strive to use correct schooling and training to ensure that our horses listen to us in order to be safe for both us and them, but not to the degree that we take away their natural reactions.

If we want to ride them, great, make it safe for that to happen, but not at the expense of allowing a horse to be a horse.

This is an interesting post, looking forward to see what folk make of that.
I think people throw the word 'natural' around like confetii, it doesn't mean much, in these contexts I don't think.

 

[eahotson]

I am going to throw a great big can of worms in the mix here...

It sounds wonderful on the surface to have our horses so focused on us that they are always calm and responsive. I am sure it feels amazing to ride a horse that is like that, because we have worked so hard to mould the horse that way, through schooling, to be totally focused on us and able to maintain that focus in even the most exciting/distressing situations.

Well, I don't think that is all that great. I don't care to get into a debate about hunting, cross country or anything specific. I just want to know...

What is the motivation to have our horses behave so well and be so in tune with us all of the time and in any situation?

I have asked a few people locally who ride this way and the answers are all based around the desire to make things as natural and comfortable to the horse as possible. To do what is best for the horse, not control it by the force of pulling on a bit etc...

Well, I happen to think it is unnatural to deny a horse it's right to experience it's natural responses. I don't want a horse to be so well trained that it has no reaction to outside stimulus. That is not natural. If a horse sees another horse galloping in a nearby field...I want it to get excited if that is what it wants to do.
If that is on the hunting field as well, so be it.

If a horse is naturally quiet and chilled, great. But if it is not, I think it is inherently wrong to want to try and change it to suit our own agendas.

Of course we should all strive to use correct schooling and training to ensure that our horses listen to us in order to be safe for both us and them, but not to the degree that we take away their natural reactions.

If we want to ride them, great, make it safe for that to happen, but not at the expense of allowing a horse to be a horse.

My horse can have as many naturel reactions as he likes when in his field with his mates.Thats one of the things he is there for.When I am riding/handling him I want his attention on me and to be safe.Lots of people you wouldn't necessarily equate naturel with are like that.John Whitaker for instance.When he is riding in a big competition he wants his horse focused on him not spooking at that barrel of flowers in the corner.

 

[_GG_]

This is an interesting post, looking forward to see what folk make of that.
I think people throw the word 'natural' around like confetii, it doesn't mean much, in these contexts I don't think.

The point of the post is that horses are horses. We have no right to deny them basic horse instincts and reactions. We can just strive to teach them a safe reaction for them and us if we want to ride them.

We have all chosen and developed our own ways of doing things with our horses because we have come to believe that that is the best way.

We can only control ourselves, nobody else.

All of the debates where people are judging what other people do and how other people ride and train are nothing more than entertainment.

Pale Rider, you strike me as being very secure in how you ride and train. So no matter what anyone else on he says, you won't change that unless YOU decide to.

Same for everyone else.

Personally, I think the day we think we have it right with horses is the day we should give them up.

To everyone...

Don't dismiss what others say, they might just know something we don't. Same applies to all.

 

[Honey08]

My horse can have as many naturel reactions as he likes when in his field with his mates.Thats one of the things he is there for.When I am riding/handling him I want his attention on me and to be safe.Lots of people you wouldn't necessarily equate naturel with are like that.John Whitaker for instance.When he is riding in a big competition he wants his horse focused on him not spooking at that barrel of flowers in the corner.

I agree that you want the horse concentrating on you and not the flowers/things to spook at, but not that I want ALL of the horse's attention on me. Enough to be safe, yes of course, but I admire the horse's bravery and character too, and want to keep that.

You could also note that John Whitikar etc do not always ride in the softest bit/rope halters. They pick what each horse works quietly and well in..

The best XC horses I have ridden have ALWAYS been keen and loved their job. They have both been highly strung mares, but when I have messed up and made mistakes, they have taken over and got me out of messes. A horse that had been trained to "don't do anything unless I tell you" probably wouldn't be that quick witted. I like to be on a horse that meets you half way. I would choose an onward going "opinionated" horse every time.

 

[_GG_]

My horse can have as many naturel reactions as he likes when in his field with his mates.Thats one of the things he is there for.When I am riding/handling him I want his attention on me and to be safe.Lots of people you wouldn't necessarily equate naturel with are like that.John Whitaker for instance.When he is riding in a big competition he wants his horse focused on him not spooking at that barrel of flowers in the corner.

Absolutely, I agree with you, I am the same. I do it by having tack on my horse that means I can have her listening to me when I need her to, same as John Whittaker.

What was being implied was that you can train a horse to not react to anything when you are only using your seat and leg aids. If John Whittaker only used seat and leg aids, his horse would still look at the flowers in the corner if it wanted to and my point is, if it wanted to, it should, unless we ask it not to. I say ask, not tell because we should have trained our horse to listen without the need for force.

Train a horse to listen when you want it to. But don't train a horse to be dead to the world around it. I personally don't think that is fair.

 

[Littlelegs]

I can & have ridden mine without any tack at all, not just in walk in a nice enclosed space, but at flat out gallop in huge open spaces (in my teens went down a bridlepath like that too once) & had no problems. And can do nice transistions either up or down through all 4 paces with no tack in large fields, sometimes with the other horses wazzing around at liberty too. In a headcollar & lr (lr just clipped as normal in one hand, not tied as reins) we can do transistions within a pace & lateral work. My skinny 7yr old canters her bareback in just a headcollar & lr (lr on as I use it, just in one hand) & in the last few months has been able to collect in trot & canter riding to & from the field with same lack of tack. Has also taken many kids jumping who did nothing more than hold the buckle ends of the reins. So I don't really think I have a problem with either training or how responsive she is. But guess what, she hunted in a double. I'd feel happy enough hunting her in a headcollar & lr, I just doubt anyone else would feel very happy with me being so far ahead of the rest of the field, & I doubt any mfh would be overjoyed at following a 14.2. Jumping she used to wear a dutch gag with two reins. It's not necessary at normal heights or even for big simple courses. But jumping big courses, at her size we had little or no margin for error, she had to be foot perfect, & the bottom gag rein gave me a more instant response. And this is a mare who does not tolerate orders or interference of even the mildest form, she just becomes obtuse. She will only take your hints & decide herself whether or not to follow them. Usually she does follow them, but the fact she thinks for herself is why she was a fab little jumper.

 

[Pale Rider]

The point of the post is that horses are horses. We have no right to deny them basic horse instincts and reactions. We can just strive to teach them a safe reaction for them and us if we want to ride them.

We have all chosen and developed our own ways of doing things with our horses because we have come to believe that that is the best way.

We can only control ourselves, nobody else.

All of the debates where people are judging what other people do and how other people ride and train are nothing more than entertainment.

Pale Rider, you strike me as being very secure in how you ride and train. So no matter what anyone else on he says, you won't change that unless YOU decide to.

Same for everyone else.

Personally, I think the day we think we have it right with horses is the day we should give them up.

To everyone...

Don't dismiss what others say, they might just know something we don't. Same applies to all.

What you say is true. On a personal note I would probably describe myself as one of the most conventional BHS type riders and trainers you could get when I was younger.
I had a massive change about 25yrs ago, and looking back over the years, I'm a lot further forward now, in what I do with horses and how they respond, than I would have been if I hadn't changed.
I've met some fantastic horsemen and women from all sorts of spheres, and I've seen people do some incredible things with horses and you are right I do feel secure in what I do, but, I have changed and I'd change again and learn something new if I thought it was better.

 

[Littlelegs]

Good point gg, & except maybe for pure dressage horses, I think any comp horse that doesn't think for itself would be pretty crap. When things are going to plan its fine to have one that only does what the rider communicates, but I don't think anyone, including top level pro's would say that everything always goes to plan. A good comp horse needs to be able to think for itself.

 

[_GG_]

What you say is true. On a personal note I would probably describe myself as one of the most conventional BHS type riders and trainers you could get when I was younger.
I had a massive change about 25yrs ago, and looking back over the years, I'm a lot further forward now, in what I do with horses and how they respond, than I would have been if I hadn't changed.
I've met some fantastic horsemen and women from all sorts of spheres, and I've seen people do some incredible things with horses and you are right I do feel secure in what I do, but, I have changed and I'd change again and learn something new if I thought it was better.

That last sentence pretty much sums me up as well

I too am BHS trained, but I have been and always will remain open too

Good point gg, & except maybe for pure dressage horses, I think any comp horse that doesn't think for itself would be pretty crap. When things are going to plan its fine to have one that only does what the rider communicates, but I don't think anyone, including top level pro's would say that everything always goes to plan. A good comp horse needs to be able to think for itself.

I could ride my old mare without saddle or bridle through a medium dressage test. Did it for demo's. she knew when to listen, but when the audience applauded at the end and she shot sideways, I would just laugh and ride it, then give her a pat and jump off

 

[Goldenstar]

Well what does natural mean for most horses ? it's not clear the product of generations of selective breeding there's not a lot 'natural ' about any of my horses .
Far larger with hocks far more under them than nature intended the horse has been modified by man since the bronze age.
My horses are an ID designed to be the ultimate working alrounder who is cheap to feed.
A TB bred to run and in his case jump at speed he needs to be feed a fair bit and is badly designed to look after himself in the field he needs stabling avaiable to be happy and healthly.
A American standard bred ( on a KWPN passport ) bred to have a ludicrous high head carriage with withers about four inches higher than the top of his bum designed to look spectacular trotting in a carriage or in silly ridden showing classes .
An Clydesdale crossed with a welsh section D he's a perfect cross of the two he does a bit of everything and a good doer but with quite a bolsy temperament hes strong and has huge pulling power and interestingly the only one who can not cope at all with being out in the rain.
We talk about natural but what's natural ?
We are responsible for these horse we geld them ( not natural ) but not many would say that's something we should stop.
Don't allow the mares to breed at will.
Keep them in fields no roaming free on the steppe fot our horses paddocks are not natural.
We rasp their teeth with means they live much longer if injury does not lead to us PTS .
I could go on and on.
The important thing is that we all question what we do watch others be open to new ideas while being careful not to too easily lead off down blind alleys .
That we care for them carefully and treat them with respect is our duty .
I don't really know what natural horsemanship is really no one has explained to satisfactory to me ?
PR would tell me that my training is militaristic I suppose it is in base as I was started of by very old ,old fashioned horse men and women when I was young then the pony club then BHS them modern competition yards I have have worked with many people and seen things done many different ways and what I do is sum of all these experiances .
OP's horse is the sum of all the experiances he has had personally I would find it very hard to advise Bitting for such a horse with out seeing it the best Bitting for a strong horse is driven by conformation, training ,way of going , the way the riders rides but although in the ideal world all horse would stop on a piece of silk the real world is not like that and OP needs to stay and feel safe .

 

[_GG_]

Well what does natural mean for most horses ? it's not clear the product of generations of selective breeding there's not a lot 'natural ' about any of my horses .
Far larger with hocks far more under them than nature intended the horse has been modified by man since the bronze age.
My horses are an ID designed to be the ultimate working alrounder who is cheap to feed.
A TB bred to run and in his case jump at speed he needs to be feed a fair bit and is badly designed to look after himself in the field he needs stabling avaiable to be happy and healthly.
A American standard bred ( on a KWPN passport ) bred to have a ludicrous high head carriage with withers about four inches higher than the top of his bum designed to look spectacular trotting in a carriage or in silly ridden showing classes .
An Clydesdale crossed with a welsh section D he's a perfect cross of the two he does a bit of everything and a good doer but with quite a bolsy temperament hes strong and has huge pulling power and interestingly the only one who can not cope at all with being out in the rain.
We talk about natural but what's natural ?
We are responsible for these horse we geld them ( not natural ) but not many would say that's something we should stop.
Don't allow the mares to breed at will.
Keep them in fields no roaming free on the steppe fot our horses paddocks are not natural.
We rasp their teeth with means they live much longer if injury does not lead to us PTS .
I could go on and on.
The important thing is that we all question what we do watch others be open to new ideas while being careful not to too easily lead off down blind alleys .
That we care for them carefully and treat them with respect is our duty .
I don't really know what natural horsemanship is really no one has explained to satisfactory to me ?
PR would tell me that my training is militaristic I suppose it is in base as I was started of by very old ,old fashioned horse men and women when I was young then the pony club then BHS them modern competition yards I have have worked with many people and seen things done many different ways and what I do is sum of all these experiances .
OP's horse is the sum of all the experiances he has had personally I would find it very hard to advise Bitting for such a horse with out seeing it the best Bitting for a strong horse is driven by conformation, training ,way of going , the way the riders rides but although in the ideal world all horse would stop on a piece of silk the real world is not like that and OP needs to stay and feel safe .

Very good post!

 

[Littlelegs]

I don't mean at all dressage horses can't think for themselves, more along the lines that if one doesn't, & the rider makes a mistake, its not as catastrophic as a rider error say coming into a xc fence & the horse not being able to find a fifth leg & keep both safe. And sounds like my mare, she is very focused on me when I need her to be but knows when its playtime too.

 

[Pale Rider]

Well what does natural mean for most horses ? it's not clear the product of generations of selective breeding there's not a lot 'natural ' about any of my horses .
Far larger with hocks far more under them than nature intended the horse has been modified by man since the bronze age.
My horses are an ID designed to be the ultimate working alrounder who is cheap to feed.
A TB bred to run and in his case jump at speed he needs to be feed a fair bit and is badly designed to look after himself in the field he needs stabling avaiable to be happy and healthly.
A American standard bred ( on a KWPN passport ) bred to have a ludicrous high head carriage with withers about four inches higher than the top of his bum designed to look spectacular trotting in a carriage or in silly ridden showing classes .
An Clydesdale crossed with a welsh section D he's a perfect cross of the two he does a bit of everything and a good doer but with quite a bolsy temperament hes strong and has huge pulling power and interestingly the only one who can not cope at all with being out in the rain.
We talk about natural but what's natural ?
We are responsible for these horse we geld them ( not natural ) but not many would say that's something we should stop.
Don't allow the mares to breed at will.
Keep them in fields no roaming free on the steppe fot our horses paddocks are not natural.
We rasp their teeth with means they live much longer if injury does not lead to us PTS .
I could go on and on.
The important thing is that we all question what we do watch others be open to new ideas while being careful not to too easily lead off down blind alleys .
That we care for them carefully and treat them with respect is our duty .
I don't really know what natural horsemanship is really no one has explained to satisfactory to me ?
PR would tell me that my training is militaristic I suppose it is in base as I was started of by very old ,old fashioned horse men and women when I was young then the pony club then BHS them modern competition yards I have have worked with many people and seen things done many different ways and what I do is sum of all these experiances .
OP's horse is the sum of all the experiances he has had personally I would find it very hard to advise Bitting for such a horse with out seeing it the best Bitting for a strong horse is driven by conformation, training ,way of going , the way the riders rides but although in the ideal world all horse would stop on a piece of silk the real world is not like that and OP needs to stay and feel safe .

Cracking post.

 

[_GG_]

I don't mean at all dressage horses can't think for themselves, more along the lines that if one doesn't, & the rider makes a mistake, its not as catastrophic as a rider error say coming into a xc fence & the horse not being able to find a fifth leg & keep both safe. And sounds like my mare, she is very focused on me when I need her to be but knows when its playtime too.

I knew you meant that and totally agree about the importance of safety.

Sounds like your mare is very similar indeed to my old mare. The new one (well, two years I have has her now) is becoming the same as well

When a mare decides to be your partner...it is the best equine partnership I think you can have

 

[bobreader]

Well what does natural mean for most horses ? it's not clear the product of generations of selective breeding there's not a lot 'natural ' about any of my horses .
Far larger with hocks far more under them than nature intended the horse has been modified by man since the bronze age.
My horses are an ID designed to be the ultimate working alrounder who is cheap to feed.
A TB bred to run and in his case jump at speed he needs to be feed a fair bit and is badly designed to look after himself in the field he needs stabling avaiable to be happy and healthly.
A American standard bred ( on a KWPN passport ) bred to have a ludicrous high head carriage with withers about four inches higher than the top of his bum designed to look spectacular trotting in a carriage or in silly ridden showing classes .
An Clydesdale crossed with a welsh section D he's a perfect cross of the two he does a bit of everything and a good doer but with quite a bolsy temperament hes strong and has huge pulling power and interestingly the only one who can not cope at all with being out in the rain.
We talk about natural but what's natural ?
We are responsible for these horse we geld them ( not natural ) but not many would say that's something we should stop.
Don't allow the mares to breed at will.
Keep them in fields no roaming free on the steppe fot our horses paddocks are not natural.
We rasp their teeth with means they live much longer if injury does not lead to us PTS .
I could go on and on.
The important thing is that we all question what we do watch others be open to new ideas while being careful not to too easily lead off down blind alleys .
That we care for them carefully and treat them with respect is our duty .
I don't really know what natural horsemanship is really no one has explained to satisfactory to me ?
PR would tell me that my training is militaristic I suppose it is in base as I was started of by very old ,old fashioned horse men and women when I was young then the pony club then BHS them modern competition yards I have have worked with many people and seen things done many different ways and what I do is sum of all these experiances .
OP's horse is the sum of all the experiances he has had personally I would find it very hard to advise Bitting for such a horse with out seeing it the best Bitting for a strong horse is driven by conformation, training ,way of going , the way the riders rides but although in the ideal world all horse would stop on a piece of silk the real world is not like that and OP needs to stay and feel safe .

Briliant words ,I totaly agree. in fact may I steal them and use them as a poster on my yard pls