Help with my youngster (again...)

[ABC]

As most of you know I have on going issues with my lad. I love him to bits but he's a pain in the arse

I've been trying to back him, and I can lean over him fully, with him not being bothered at all. So yesterday we tried me leaning on him, and him being asked to walk on. Each time he panicked and freaked out, which resulted in me sliding off. So now I'm stuck again.

I can't send him away to be backed, a) because I can't afford it and b) because I've tried 3 times and each time he gets sent back to me within a week.

So, now I can either keep trying to get him to accept being led around, with me leaning over him, or I can try a new tactic. And in all honesty, I'm tempted to try something new, each time we tried he panicked more and more which is not what I want.

I don't just want to hop straight on him, because I'm pretty sure he'll do something daft to get me off, and I'll go flying and I'm not the best rider in the world...

So I'm at a total loss. I've worked really hard to get him to the stage we're at now but I have to get him backed and ridden away, it's becoming a joke now.

Any tips/help/advice/kick up the bums greatly appreciated.

 

[Spring Feather]

I haven't followed your story but presumably he's used to wearing a saddle? With stirrups hanging down and flapping about him when he's being lunged or free schooled?

 

[LouS]

What have you actually done with him so far?

Have you had him looked at, if he's reacting to weight on he could be sore?

Its hard to say without seeing him and knowing what sort of work you've put into him so far. Does he work on lines etc? Is he completely comfortable with the saddle, totally relaxed while you put it on and off, trot and canter with stirrups down?

I would start teaching him to stand next to a mounting block, once he is comfortable and will stand stock still without you having to hold him there, I would start flapping stirrups about, banging on saddle etc until he is comfortable. Then progress to stamping on mounting block, jumping up and down etc. Don't move on until he is totally relaxed and repeat, repeat, repeat. I actually start doing this at the end of every single session with youngsters weeks before I'm considering sitting on them. Once he is totally relaxed, I would reach over and start to mess about with the saddle at the other side etc, just stroke his shoulder at first until he is relaxed about this. If he's panicking he is probably freaked out about seeing you on the other side or you haven't put enough preparation work in.

 

[be positive]

There are a few things to try, is the person helping you leading him at other times, he needs to trust them not just you. If you can get them doing more, try them leading him while you walk next to him before leaning over.
Are you working with him often enough? I have found that sometimes doing a little twice a day can be best and this does need to be done every day to make progress.
Is he good with his saddle flapping and stirrups down on the lunge in all paces?
Could someone, a third person leg you up while he is moving?

Has his back been looked at and does his saddle fit really well, I would be concerned that he has been sent back 3 times within a week, if he is sensitive that is rushing him to the leaning over stage and will have reinforced his fears.
I would also try without a saddle, it may be that it pulls into his spine as your weight goes on it.
Just a few thoughts that I hope may help.

 

[LouS]

Sorry just read that he's been sent back to you 3 times within a week, on what grounds? Seems very strange, I don't know anyone reputable who would send a horse back in a week unless there was something really not right.

 

[ABC]

I haven't followed your story but presumably he's used to wearing a saddle? With stirrups hanging down and flapping about him when he's being lunged or free schooled?

Yep, and is 100% perfect being lunged, free schooled and long reined, hence why its so frustrating!

What have you actually done with him so far?

Have you had him looked at, if he's reacting to weight on he could be sore?

Its hard to say without seeing him and knowing what sort of work you've put into him so far. Does he work on lines etc? Is he completely comfortable with the saddle, totally relaxed while you put it on and off, trot and canter with stirrups down?

I would start teaching him to stand next to a mounting block, once he is comfortable and will stand stock still without you having to hold him there, I would start flapping stirrups about, banging on saddle etc until he is comfortable. Then progress to stamping on mounting block, jumping up and down etc. Don't move on until he is totally relaxed and repeat, repeat, repeat. I actually start doing this at the end of every single session with youngsters weeks before I'm considering sitting on them. Once he is totally relaxed, I would reach over and start to mess about with the saddle at the other side etc, just stroke his shoulder at first until he is relaxed about this. If he's panicking he is probably freaked out about seeing you on the other side or you haven't put enough preparation work in.

I've done all that you've suggested, and he's not bothered one bit. The only things I haven't done is leaned over him, whilst he's moving and actually sat on him.

There are a few things to try, is the person helping you leading him at other times, he needs to trust them not just you. If you can get them doing more, try them leading him while you walk next to him before leaning over.
Are you working with him often enough? I have found that sometimes doing a little twice a day can be best and this does need to be done every day to make progress.
Is he good with his saddle flapping and stirrups down on the lunge in all paces?
Could someone, a third person leg you up while he is moving?

Has his back been looked at and does his saddle fit really well, I would be concerned that he has been sent back 3 times within a week, if he is sensitive that is rushing him to the leaning over stage and will have reinforced his fears.
I would also try without a saddle, it may be that it pulls into his spine as your weight goes on it.
Just a few thoughts that I hope may help.

Thanks, lots of good ideas. He gets sent back due to issue on the ground which don't happen at home. At the moment I've been leaning on him twice a day for 5 - 10 minutes at a time, and then tried asking him to walk on twice a day for 5 - 10 minutes, but this has been a diasaster! He does have a very short attention span.

Have had his saddle checked twice, but I'm still not 100% on its fit, so I have been using another cheap one that fits him like a glove, but I will definately try bareback

I think your point about him trusting the person who is leading him is correct too because he does have massive trust issues. It's took me over a year to get him to this point, so I know its not going to be easy!


Thanks all for your help

 

[ABC]

Sorry just read that he's been sent back to you 3 times within a week, on what grounds? Seems very strange, I don't know anyone reputable who would send a horse back in a week unless there was something really not right.

He's a bugger on the ground with people he doesn't know/trust. Once he trusts you he's perfect on the ground. I told the people on several times what he was like, but they said they would be fine with him but it wasn't the case. He doesn't respond to aggression or negative reinforcement. When he's naughty, I say no, count to 5 and ask again, by which time he's calmed down. He panicks easily and needs patience, which I've found a lot of people don't have.

 

[LouS]

I'd send him somewhere else to be honest, as the people you sent him to don't sound competent.

 

[Spring Feather]

I'd send him somewhere else to be honest, as the people you sent him to don't sound competent.

This ^^ I'd also ask them to back him bareback. I start all of mine off bareback and rarely, if ever, have any problems doing it this way for the first few rides.

 

[iconique]

Sorry, not read your previous threads, but how old is he? Some youngsters simply aren't ready and need to mature and be ready before backing? Some are ready at 3 (although I personally prefer to wait) and some don't get the right attitude until they are 5 or so. If he's so hard on the ground, I'd wait until that settles down before attempting to become a crash test rider!

 

[TallulahBright]

Get hold of a Libra saddle pad, I've got one and it's great. Gives you the feel of a saddle without a saddle, can use stirrups etc and feels quite secure. Saddle fitter wouldn't sell me a saddle as my girl was not muscled enough but the pad has allowed me to back her and build up muscle and now she looks great! Proper saddle fitting in two weeks. I agree with the poster saying he will need to totally trust the person on the ground as well as you. Good luck!

 

[ABC]

Sorry, not read your previous threads, but how old is he? Some youngsters simply aren't ready and need to mature and be ready before backing? Some are ready at 3 (although I personally prefer to wait) and some don't get the right attitude until they are 5 or so. If he's so hard on the ground, I'd wait until that settles down before attempting to become a crash test rider!

He's 4 now

I'd send him somewhere else to be honest, as the people you sent him to don't sound competent.

This ^^ I'd also ask them to back him bareback. I start all of mine off bareback and rarely, if ever, have any problems doing it this way for the first few rides.

Any recommendations in the North West area? It's not something I particularly want to do, due to the previous bad experiences, but it's something I'll look into

 

[ABC]

Get hold of a Libra saddle pad, I've got one and it's great. Gives you the feel of a saddle without a saddle, can use stirrups etc and feels quite secure. Saddle fitter wouldn't sell me a saddle as my girl was not muscled enough but the pad has allowed me to back her and build up muscle and now she looks great! Proper saddle fitting in two weeks. I agree with the poster saying he will need to totally trust the person on the ground as well as you. Good luck!

Ooh, could you tell me more about the saddle pad?

 

[Sparkles]

This ^^ I'd also ask them to back him bareback. I start all of mine off bareback and rarely, if ever, have any problems doing it this way for the first few rides.

^ This. The only times we have issues of them walking on is actually from the girth rather than the rider [*most* the time, not always].

I'd also be inclined, which I'd not normally do, is try getting a lead from another horse to start and get him straight out 'hacking' [be it round the yard etc]. We had this with an older stallion we had in who would just not move forwards once on - but would lunge fine etc. School work was pointless as it didn't help matters, so we literally stuck him behind another horse for a few days just to get him going forwards and then he was absolutely fine. Failing that, if it was me and all pain issues had been ruled out, I'd honestly just get on him in the arena and get him positively chased forwards. He may well explode, but I'd just stick it quietly and let him get used to it as long as he keeps going forwards, he should settle soon after. Soon as he's had that initial 'plant' out of him, then you can move on from there with all the usual riding away stuff.
Seems to me, he's figured out he can get away with planting there. If you don't want to be the person on him, find someone who would be willing to, even if you have to pay them for that one initial ride. If they give it a good go explosion wise from the start - less thing to worry about further on if they've thrown they're all into it already.

 

[be positive]

I have looked back at your previous threads and see this horse was backed and you had been riding him last summer before it went wrong following a suspected field injury, this could be a physical problem such as kissing spines. I think it would be the next step, before he causes an accident, to get a vet to look at him properly.
You did put that at one time he was letting you sit on bareback and it was the saddle that caused him to react.

 

[TallulahBright]

It's made of foam and sheepskin and cost about £80 ish. Google it, it came really quickly and I love it! You need a tiny girth with it as the straps come down low and I bought kids' stirrup leathers cos mine were too long. Can't recommend enough! It let me crack on when she was mentally ready. Just rebacked her in it and she's loving the work!

 

[ABC]

^ This. The only times we have issues of them walking on is actually from the girth rather than the rider [*most* the time, not always].

I'd also be inclined, which I'd not normally do, is try getting a lead from another horse to start and get him straight out 'hacking' [be it round the yard etc]. We had this with an older stallion we had in who would just not move forwards once on - but would lunge fine etc. School work was pointless as it didn't help matters, so we literally stuck him behind another horse for a few days just to get him going forwards and then he was absolutely fine. Failing that, if it was me and all pain issues had been ruled out, I'd honestly just get on him in the arena and get him positively chased forwards. He may well explode, but I'd just stick it quietly and let him get used to it as long as he keeps going forwards, he should settle soon after. Soon as he's had that initial 'plant' out of him, then you can move on from there with all the usual riding away stuff.
Seems to me, he's figured out he can get away with planting there. If you don't want to be the person on him, find someone who would be willing to, even if you have to pay them for that one initial ride. If they give it a good go explosion wise from the start - less thing to worry about further on if they've thrown they're all into it already.

I'm not a good enough rider to stay on, but like you said, I could find someone to ride him, good idea thanks

I have looked back at your previous threads and see this horse was backed and you had been riding him last summer before it went wrong following a suspected field injury, this could be a physical problem such as kissing spines. I think it would be the next step, before he causes an accident, to get a vet to look at him properly.
You did put that at one time he was letting you sit on bareback and it was the saddle that caused him to react.

Don't worry, he has had the vet out - I wouldnt be even thinking of backing him if there was a possibility something was wrong I did think it was his saddle, but I've had his saddle check. Im pretty confident it's nothing physical. He just panics. Its not the issue of weight, else he wouldnt let me lean over him.


Im going to follow up some ideas given here, looking for a new place to back him or for an experienced rider to come and help me

We'll get there....eventually

 

[ABC]

It's made of foam and sheepskin and cost about £80 ish. Google it, it came really quickly and I love it! You need a tiny girth with it as the straps come down low and I bought kids' stirrup leathers cos mine were too long. Can't recommend enough! It let me crack on when she was mentally ready. Just rebacked her in it and she's loving the work!

Thanks, will do

 

[Sparkles]

Soon as you get that first 'ride' out of him, things should start to turn around. I'd def be inclined just to hire a rider for at least that first ride, or hire them for a week say, just to give him 10-15 minutes each day

 

[ABC]

Soon as you get that first 'ride' out of him, things should start to turn around. I'd def be inclined just to hire a rider for at least that first ride, or hire them for a week say, just to give him 10-15 minutes each day

Any idea where I'd find a rider ?

 

[lottie940]

I know you have said that you cannot afford to send him away to be backed but have you thought of asking someone to come to your house/ yard and help you out? I've got a youngster who was running me ragged last year- totally taking the wotsit- and I'm not even close to backing him!!

Anyway after much deliberation and realising that I didn't have the knowledge/skills to sort him myself I asked someone from Intelligent horsemanship(aka Monty Roberts group) to come and help me. I had two sessions with him at a cost of £50 each time and it has totally turned our relationship around. I plan to get him to come back and help me put the basics in place to get him ready for backing as I am scared to death of making a mess of things!!

My point is that you seem like you are running out of ideas and at a cross roads- you can either keep plugging away and probably risk ruining him or you can invest a small amount of money and get a fresh pair of eyes on the subject and improve your own skills at the same time. If he has trust issues he will feel more relaxed being kept in his own environment and having someone come in and work with him. Its worth a shot surely? If you want to find your local associate got to the intelligent horsemanship website.

Good luck.

 

[ridefast]

Put a dummy on him?

 

[Foxhunter49]

Get him use to you standing on a tall long mounting block - like two bales high and three in length and fiddle about with the saddle, flapping irons, leaning over the saddle to run the iron on the far side up and generally just getting him use to you being above him.

I would not try a dummy on him as unless you can actually weld something to the saddle, it will slip and be more likely to frighten him to bits.

if you can, lead him out from another horse so again he gets use to height above him.

It is doubtful it is the weight but more your legs sticking out to the side and what he can see behind him, thus the tall block will help get him over this.
I am inclined to just lean over and stay there and let them wander when they are ready and before they go to far just slip to the ground, rather than forcing them to walk if they are not sure.

 

[katastrophykat]

Where are you??

We have a local jockey who works in northumberland/Durham who is fab with young horses and starts them at home- I'll be calling on him for my baby to introduce him to male riders as he'll be under a hunter judge at some point in his career!

 

[ABC]

Get him use to you standing on a tall long mounting block - like two bales high and three in length and fiddle about with the saddle, flapping irons, leaning over the saddle to run the iron on the far side up and generally just getting him use to you being above him.

I would not try a dummy on him as unless you can actually weld something to the saddle, it will slip and be more likely to frighten him to bits.

if you can, lead him out from another horse so again he gets use to height above him.

It is doubtful it is the weight but more your legs sticking out to the side and what he can see behind him, thus the tall block will help get him over this.
I am inclined to just lean over and stay there and let them wander when they are ready and before they go to far just slip to the ground, rather than forcing them to walk if they are not sure.

Thanks Foxhunter - I'll follow this advice

I'm in Lancashire

I would consider having someone come to me and help, that would probably be better for him but it's finding someone to come and help

Thanks for all your advice

 

[Equilibrium Ireland]

Sigh. Here's the thing you need almost a more confident person on the ground handling your horse. Read some replies and gave up. Look it my husband hops up on some of our unbroken ones and rides them in the field with head collar and rope. But guess what, the horse isn't broke and I wouldn't call it that. Very trusting horses who have been handled confidently from day one.

So bareback is fine. So is no bridle and all the other stuff but I'm assuming you want to ride your horse in a saddle and bridle. So guess what a girth is part of the deal. Are you long lining this horse with stirrups flapping? When you lay over without walking off are you staying as still as possible? Don't be still. Don't go all defcon 4 on him either but he has to learn about movement.

Look it's very hard to dispense breaking advice on the Internet. And I realise cost comes into it but I hear this over and over. I don't have money to send them off. Yet they have a competition schedule planned and trainers lined up once horse is riding. So what happens they send horse off to the cheapest person and horse gets ruined.

Starting a horse is pretty easy and basic. Confidence at every step. Two competent people make it much nicer and easier for the horse. Skipping steps and going forward before horse is confident can scare the horse as he has no idea what you want. I've spent years starting horses. I've yet to have one not enjoy what's happening as long as everything is done to ensure confidence at every step of the way. I quit starting horses except for a few close friends. Got fet up getting phone calls in which the only questioned people wanted an answer to was, how cheap can you do it.

Here's my advice. Quit now. Save your money and get this horse to a professional. You couldn't have sent this horse to very reputable people in the first place if they sent him home. It's not an uncommon reaction to scoot forward upon walking off under weight for the first time. But the reaction to the person at his head and the rider on his back let's him know it's ok. If you want your horse to be a good riding horse you need to factor in the costs of getting the job done right.

Terri

 

[ABC]

Sigh. Here's the thing you need almost a more confident person on the ground handling your horse. Read some replies and gave up. Look it my husband hops up on some of our unbroken ones and rides them in the field with head collar and rope. But guess what, the horse isn't broke and I wouldn't call it that. Very trusting horses who have been handled confidently from day one.

So bareback is fine. So is no bridle and all the other stuff but I'm assuming you want to ride your horse in a saddle and bridle. So guess what a girth is part of the deal. Are you long lining this horse with stirrups flapping? When you lay over without walking off are you staying as still as possible? Don't be still. Don't go all defcon 4 on him either but he has to learn about movement.

Look it's very hard to dispense breaking advice on the Internet. And I realise cost comes into it but I hear this over and over. I don't have money to send them off. Yet they have a competition schedule planned and trainers lined up once horse is riding. So what happens they send horse off to the cheapest person and horse gets ruined.

Starting a horse is pretty easy and basic. Confidence at every step. Two competent people make it much nicer and easier for the horse. Skipping steps and going forward before horse is confident can scare the horse as he has no idea what you want. I've spent years starting horses. I've yet to have one not enjoy what's happening as long as everything is done to ensure confidence at every step of the way. I quit starting horses except for a few close friends. Got fet up getting phone calls in which the only questioned people wanted an answer to was, how cheap can you do it.

Here's my advice. Quit now. Save your money and get this horse to a professional. You couldn't have sent this horse to very reputable people in the first place if they sent him home. It's not an uncommon reaction to scoot forward upon walking off under weight for the first time. But the reaction to the person at his head and the rider on his back let's him know it's ok. If you want your horse to be a good riding horse you need to factor in the costs of getting the job done right.

Terri

My horse hasnt been handled fairly though, thats why he is so untrusting. He is fine now, and a gentleman on the ground, with new people he is wary and will test his boundaries.

He is fine with things flapping all around him, if possible I will try and video a session with him tomorrow so you can see what I do, but no, I dont stay still, I flap like a demented chicken!

I didn't send my horse to just anybody. I tried him at a busy thriving yard, with a very good rider, but it didn't work. He was unsettled at the yard, meaning his behaviour was awful. He was a danger to work with at this point, and I don't blame them for sending him back.

The second time I tried a quieter more calm yard too see if it made much of a difference, and it did. But every time he panicked, he wasn't allowed to think and calm down before they tried again. I took him from that yard because I realised he was just being rushed and wasn't happy at all.

The third time was better, but he has restricted turnout which caused him to be a ticking time bomb.

I understand what you're saying and to an extent I agree, but I can not jusitfy spending £200 a week, when it'll take him at least 3 or 4 weeks to start acting like his normal self.

I've come on a lot with this horse, and whilst in many people's eyes I might be ruining him, in mine I'm not. I'm not rushing him, not hurting him, I'm taking it one step at a time and I'm in no rush. I haven't planned competition dates with him, I haven't planned anything with him. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to compete with him, but Im under no illusions, and I'd love equally as much just to go on a hack with him

Thanks again

 

[RedRum13]

Somethings that worked for me is first using weight bags with you leading him to get him used to the weight & then try you leading and someone else leaning on me if he has trust issues... much better for you to be on the ground so he can see you and be comforted by that. Hope that helps!

 

[phpony]

You say you can't afford sending him away?
Why don't you send him away to someone who isn't a business maybe someone just starting up? Or even just someone experienced to come and help for a small fee.
I myself am looking for someone that wants help as I've finished re-schooling my problem horse and can't afford another. I don't know how far you are from me but I bet there's someone just like me near you. Would take time to get to know him before trying anything and has enough experience to sort him out or help you with him.
But good luck!

 

[Sparkles]

Browse tack shops or call any horsey mates. You'll either find someone through word of mouth/friend of a friend/etc or even ring up some main equestrian yards or riding schools within the area - quite a few people will free lance, even if not advertised.