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[AandK]

I had something vaguely similar with my exracer a few years ago. Issue only presented in the school, he was golden out hacking in walk/trot/canter. Long story short, he had hock pain from arthritis (just one hock, due to a ligament injury a few years prior) and squamous ulcers. We medicated his hock, treated the ulcers and he has been fine since.

I hope you get some answers from the vet appointment.

 

[conniegirl]

I had similar with a pony. Turned out he had a fractured pelvis, it only hurt him when i asked him to work through from behind

 

[emaR]

Actu

So every single comment apart from the one you quoted tells you to get a vet, and you agree with the one comment saying horses are "nasty". Please don't listen to advice like this. Its nonsense and leads to ho

Yes actually I do believe if some nasty behaviours need to be nipped in the bud! As I said before we have dealt with alot of these in the past - I've had a behavioural specialist come out and help us fix these actually so I know horses can have an opinion and personalities which sometimes if they are trying to test the boundaries or a new owner they can appear nasty. So I can quote agree with what was said.

I'd also like to point out there was no hate written in said comment!!

An also as again I have said I have the vets coming next week so I haven't disagreed with every single comment on this post apart from 1!!

 

[emaR]

I had something vaguely similar with my exracer a few years ago. Issue only presented in the school, he was golden out hacking in walk/trot/canter. Long story short, he had hock pain from arthritis (just one hock, due to a ligament injury a few years prior) and squamous ulcers. We medicated his hock, treated the ulcers and he has been fine since.

I hope you get some answers from the vet appointment.

Thank you

 

[emaR]

Or he behaves like that as he's less scared of you so he feels he can exhibit more of how he feels with you - rather than hiding it with a stronger rider.

As a herd prey animal they are evolved to not show issues in front of the predator even when they are feeling terrible. It's not so much of a big leap to this.

Presumably your riding has not got a lot worse suddenly after 3 years - so why would he suddenly be thinking he can take the P*$$ out of you for fun ??

No actually after 6 months of lessons my riding has improved massively - which is what makes me wonder if it's more behaviour than pain purely because he's quite lazy in the school, green and learning something new and has definitely got opinions when he wants too

 

[blitznbobs]

No actually after 6 months of lessons my riding has improved massively - which is what makes me wonder if it's more behaviour than pain purely because he's quite lazy in the school, green and learning something new and has definitely got opinions when he wants too

Or your better able to ask for more which he isn’t able to give … I’ve never met an opinionated horse like this that doesn’t show their opinion everywhere… it’s pain til proven otherwise - with my mare who was similar it was her stifles hocks and si joints … she was just really stoic and equally lame on both hind legs so not noticeably lame but slammed the breaks on if I asked for canter

 

[AmyMay]

If kissing spine is ruled out, I would say he is being nasty. I have a mare who, if you don't immediately put a stop to unacceptable behaviour, she will continue the same behaviour knowing she will most likely get away with it. That is just the way she is. No haters please as I know my horse enough to recognise issues.
The issue with OTTBs is KS is a very common outcome of being ridden too young unfortunately.

What a ridiculous post.

 

[ycbm]

Does anyone know if ulcer pain would be more consistent?

Yes I do

No it wouldn't.

Reaction to pain will almost always depend on what else is going on around the horse.

 

[ycbm]

If kissing spine is ruled out, I would say he is being nasty. I have a mare who, if you don't immediately put a stop to unacceptable behaviour, she will continue the same behaviour knowing she will most likely get away with it. That is just the way she is. No haters please as I know my horse enough to recognise issues.
The issue with OTTBs is KS is a very common outcome of being ridden too young unfortunately.

Edited to include further info.

I have had two horses who I could push through to get good work out of them. The first had his neck x rayed on my insistence after a vet said he could see nothing wrong with him, and it was riddled with arthritis. The second was born with deformed fetlock bones, found after 5 years of asking various vets why he at times stood oddly or "fell off" a hind leg, after being taken for a work up immediately he started to buck.) Neither had kissing spines.

I'm glad you are so sure your mare has no pain. I couldn't be.

 

[conniegirl]

If kissing spine is ruled out, I would say he is being nasty. I have a mare who, if you don't immediately put a stop to unacceptable behaviour, she will continue the same behaviour knowing she will most likely get away with it. That is just the way she is. No haters please as I know my horse enough to recognise issues.
The issue with OTTBs is KS is a very common outcome of being ridden too young unfortunately.

Im sorry that you feel bullying your horse into working through pain is acceptable.

Quite often it is the hocks not the spine that is causing the issue. So ruling out KS does not rule out pain

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

Im sorry that you feel bullying your horse into working through pain is acceptable.

Quite often it is the hocks not the spine that is causing the issue. So ruling out KS does not rule out pain

OP, if you think your horse may have ulcers, try feeding Aloe Vera juice. It won't cure ulcers but it helps with the pain from them

 

[lynz88]

Any ideas what could lie dormant for 3 years or why he's happy to bend in the school over poles but not on the flat?

It took me about 3 years to pinpoint an SI issue with mine. He wasn't displaying the "normal" signs as one would with SI dysfunction and it wasn't until a friends horse was doing some of the same and she had found an SI issue did I realize that maybe it was SI for mine (and it was). He would work fine and forward on a straight line but on a bend he would get fussy, put the brakes on, and nap....but it was only at a certain spot (and like yours, a whip would upset him more and he would escalate). On the lunge he was fine for 3/4 of the circle and then all of a sudden, he would drift out and drag me but again, only on a certain spot. We figured it was me when I was onboard as I am far from straight, particularly on a bend, and/or his own lack of balance combined with potentially a bit of hock pain that we knew he had (and so we both had a lot of work to do on ourselves!). Then weirder things started happening and suddenly realized he was happier on harder ground but if asked to bend or turn, became stuffy. Bringing him straight into the deeper school, the brakes would go on. Which....is what eventually led to the SI find but in the interim we investigated pretty much everything including bringing him to Liphook for a spinal to rule out an EPM attack (he's from Canada and has had an EPM attack previously).

ETA: everything that we investigated and did resulted in a change in the horse but then after a month or 2 would fall back into his napping. So it was a lot of on-again-off-again. I also watched him out in the field galloping and bucking and rearing and playing and tossing and turning himself into all sorts of weird and wonderful shapes at times, looking like he was having an absolute ball of a time. This made us even more confused because you would think that if they are sore, they are sore no matter if they are in the school or out in the field....

I do agree with ycbm in that a stronger rider onboard will be able to make the horse move out but that doesn't mean that the horse is ok. You need to do the investigation work unfortunately.

 

[Ceriann]

I would get a vet to do a work up - assuming you are not insured, I would be very clear with them and that your focus is identifying whether there is a physical cause systematically. So work up, followed by investigation of most likely cause, whether an x-Ray or a scan etc. If not that issue move to the next probable cause. Some, not all, vets will want to investigate everything at once - my vet is very good at working through most probable and managing cost. Horses are reactive, yours is reacting and you are doing exactly the right thing in listening. It could be something very easy to address but please don’t keep trying to work him through it - we expect a lot of our horses just getting on and riding. How else do they tell us if it’s not comfortable other than to react.

 

[Ossy2]

I think this horse has been trying to tell you for a while something is not right. Which is hard sometimes when they are not obviously lame and people may think it’s your riding. But it sounds like you’ve everything you can bar get a vet check so now is time.
arthritis, supensories, kissing spin, old fractures ect could be any and, if not an obvious lameness the vet might have to use expensive diagnostics to find. Is the horse insured?

 

[lynz88]

In your boat I would:
Scan suspensorys
X ray hocks and stifles
Treat as if an ulcer horse with supplements (Abler as easy to get in USA) and diet for 2 weeks to see if improved in happiness.

I wouldn’t x ray back and scope quite yet unless your vet saw good reason to and depending if you have insurance. If you do I would x ray back.

Then depending on above findings I would scope for ulcers as bound to appear if any of the above.

If I was being a bit cheap about it all to start with I would stick on NSAIDS for 2 weeks. See if improvement in behaviour. With this kind of thing it’s working your way through one thing at a time.

This. And check SI, stifle, feet/HPA as well. Speaking from experience as all of the above and the issues I've mentioned have been plaguing mine who can act similarly.

 

[ycbm]

OP, if you think your horse may have ulcers, try feeding Aloe Vera juice. It won't cure ulcers but it helps with the pain from them

There is evidence that it can cure them, just much slower than the standard omeprazole treatment.
.

 

[Fieldlife]

As part of exploring I would get some other sympathetic, quiet, non forceful riders to school him, and see how that goes. Look for pain or stress signs (look them up per Sue Dyson).

 

[coblets]

The other girl schooled him again .. again fine for her.

Fine, like he doesn't do the behaviour or fine like no tail swishing or pinned ears or so on?

Sometimes horses with back issues will go better for very balanced riders. The symptoms appear with unbalanced riders who make being ridden more painful.

 

[Melody Grey]

I completely accept this and believe my ottb can behave like this also, we have over come so many problem behaviours since owning him and I've worked on every single one and got past them all.
This is one I don't know how to deal with.

The other riders put him under more pressure so I wondered if he behaves like this for me as he knows I am the weaker link.

I agree with all that’s been said above re: getting a performance work up with a good, equine specialist vet (if you’re uk, we may be able to suggest good hospitals?)

If nothing is found… I wonder if you’re anxious given previous behaviour/ events and that’s coming through?

 

[emaR]

Update to everyone that's commented, firstly thank you all for the comments.

Performance check complete all fine. Vet wasn't over worried about ulcers as not a great deal of evidence to say so, we went ahead just to check and today had a scope! Grade 2!

I'm so pleased I went ahead with it, the starvation process put me off massively he actually took to it really well. An now my boy can be on the mend and feeling better soon

Thank you all for your comments you all helped me persevere with a gut feeling!!

 

[KatieDM]

Update to everyone that's commented, firstly thank you all for the comments.

Performance check complete all fine. Vet wasn't over worried about ulcers as not a great deal of evidence to say so, we went ahead just to check and today had a scope! Grade 2!

I'm so pleased I went ahead with it, the starvation process put me off massively he actually took to it really well. An now my boy can be on the mend and feeling better soon

Thank you all for your comments you all helped me persevere with a gut feeling!!

Was reading with interest. Glad you’ve found a cause. (Sorry it is ulcers, of course!) Definitely echoes the sentiment that there’s always a reason…

 

[emaR]

Was reading with interest. Glad you’ve found a cause. (Sorry it is ulcers, of course!) Definitely echoes the sentiment that there’s always a reason

Don't apologise, I'm so pleased to have an answer and my boy will get what he needs now.

It definitely echoes there is always a reason with their behaviour and what they do.

It also proves that actually horses with ulcers don't necessarily have a "look" about them - which I did get told. My boys got the loveliest look about him you wouldn't know at all.

I read so many of these threads out of interest and the best advice you can give anyone with suspicion of ulcers is getting the scope booked, the starvation process really isn't that bad and always trust your gut!!