Errin Paddywack
Well-Known Member
Hard to believe it is the same horse, what a transformation.
HHO's "Bear" project pony...
- Thread starter Michen
- Start date
Michen
Well-Known Member
Sorry not a Bear update (he’s had a mild right hind lameness which I’m just at the end of rehabbing- hopefully- vet check on Tuesday).
Just using this thread to get some thoughts. Boggle is in as full work as he could be. I was doing twice weekly in hand poles etc but that’s probably reduced to once weekly now. He’s jumping, schooling, hacking lots but I feel like he should have more muscle than he does- I'm seeing a sort of dip under the saddle. Am I expecting too much? It is an effort to get him to use his arse, it doesn’t come easy to him but I feel like he’s potentially lacking muscle under the saddle despite it being checked recently by a fitter. Not his best posture standing wise but a quick snap from the end of the rope.
Any thoughts, or am I being neurotic ?.. or should be more muscled than this. He is regularly (literally every 6 weeks at the moment!) looked at by my vet, has hock arthritis and is sound on the trot up. Slightly positive flexion but it trots out in enough time to pass a vet. Has regular physio.
I've posted a photo also of him earlier this year in winter with more weight on him (in much less work and not fit)- but perhaps more muscle? If so then something has gone wrong.. Hmmm.
He's also being fed just a handful of fast fibre, MSM and pro hoof. Perhaps he may benefit from some more protein..? Any suggestions if so? He hates grass nuts!
Just using this thread to get some thoughts. Boggle is in as full work as he could be. I was doing twice weekly in hand poles etc but that’s probably reduced to once weekly now. He’s jumping, schooling, hacking lots but I feel like he should have more muscle than he does- I'm seeing a sort of dip under the saddle. Am I expecting too much? It is an effort to get him to use his arse, it doesn’t come easy to him but I feel like he’s potentially lacking muscle under the saddle despite it being checked recently by a fitter. Not his best posture standing wise but a quick snap from the end of the rope.
Any thoughts, or am I being neurotic ?.. or should be more muscled than this. He is regularly (literally every 6 weeks at the moment!) looked at by my vet, has hock arthritis and is sound on the trot up. Slightly positive flexion but it trots out in enough time to pass a vet. Has regular physio.
I've posted a photo also of him earlier this year in winter with more weight on him (in much less work and not fit)- but perhaps more muscle? If so then something has gone wrong.. Hmmm.
He's also being fed just a handful of fast fibre, MSM and pro hoof. Perhaps he may benefit from some more protein..? Any suggestions if so? He hates grass nuts!
Bernster
Well-Known Member
I find these really difficult as obv there are lots of factors involved. Are you happy with the saddle fit? I changed saddles (despite using qualified fitters and getting it checked regularly) and finnegan has put on more muscle along his back. Same work and diet, just a different saddle fit.
ownedbyaconnie
Well-Known Member
This. There was nothing "wrong" with pony's previous saddle, never sore for physio every few months and saddle checked every 6. But changed saddle and she immediately started putting on muscle. Nothing else had changed.
Red-1
I used to be decisive, now I'm not so sure...
Is he the right age for his wither to 'pop up'? I have found it is a thing, usually at age 7 or 8.
Michen
Well-Known Member
Hmm, not sure... I haven't noticed it popping haha!
THe saddle is the one he's been in since he was 5. Been checked by about 3/4 different fitters. I did have it completely reflocked end of last year but it's still been checked (twice actually) since then.
I'm happy with the saddle, and have noticed absolutely no changes with him. He feels better/stronger than ever...
Maybe I'm looking for something that's not there?
Roxylola
Well-Known Member
I think you'd be better off comparing fit photos rather than the fat(ish) to fit.
I've noticed that Charlie lost muscle similarly over the first quarter of the year. He's really fit but he's not been doing the lateral work and schooling he was previously so his top line dropped off a bit. He's also on a semi diet - fat cobs can't gallop! He's out now and gained a little which helped fill the gaps a bit and with facilities back open doing a bit more schooling and his top line is picking back up with the combination.
I personally think Bog looks fit and well and wouldn't worry hugely - as you say getting them to use their butts is hard work but I think if he's getting plenty of grub he'll muscle up as you go
I've noticed that Charlie lost muscle similarly over the first quarter of the year. He's really fit but he's not been doing the lateral work and schooling he was previously so his top line dropped off a bit. He's also on a semi diet - fat cobs can't gallop! He's out now and gained a little which helped fill the gaps a bit and with facilities back open doing a bit more schooling and his top line is picking back up with the combination.
I personally think Bog looks fit and well and wouldn't worry hugely - as you say getting them to use their butts is hard work but I think if he's getting plenty of grub he'll muscle up as you go
IrishMilo
Well-Known Member
I can see the dip that you mean - some horses seem to be prone to it although I do agree that he's lacking muscle. It doesn't look like he has much at all, particularly over the neck and back. I think he looks better in the older pics where he's carrying a bit more and generally a little more covered all over. Small bounces would be a really good way for him to stretch over the neck and back and hopefully build something up.
TheMule
Well-Known Member
I think he looks super, and just how I would expect a fit horse to look. If he's in hard work I would add in a bit more protein
Michen
Well-Known Member
Thanks TM, any suggestions feed wise?
bouncing_ball
Well-Known Member
options for increasing protein
Switch to a higher protein hay / haylage
Add micronised linseed
Add alfa A chaff / nuts
Add 10gms of lysine (most common limiting amino acid)
TPO
🤠🏴
Going to stick my neck out and say that I think he looks spot on.
It's the superficial muscles that you can see and feel easily at the surface. The main ones "over the back", so to speak, are the Trapezius (pointing triangle is top of withers roughly with one side going up the neck (cervicis) and the other side extending beneath the saddle and where the points would be (thoracis)). Then you have the latissimis dorsi from beneath the bottom edge of your trapezius triangle from the shoulder going over the back and is what the saddle sits on.
The photos are from one side so to make a more accurate judgement ideally you would need photos from both sides, front, back and from above looking down across the back/shoulders/neck. However based on your photos all of those muscles look healthy.
If you are ever concerned about back pain or pressure points from a saddle you can do a regular check using your fingers or a pen with a lid.
Basically from the spine to the shelf of the ribs (where you start feeling ribs i.e. muscles between both markers) draw zig zags from the wither down then up to the spine and so on. Then approx 2" down from the spine draw a horizontal line and same again approx 4" down. Wother a biro with a lid on or your middle finger in top of inder finger with medium pressure. If there is a sore point then the muscle will twitch as you pass over it. If the pressure is too hard the horse will yield from it; that's a good thing as when there is "proper" back pain (KS for example) they dont react to pressure/pain because they resist against it.
So yeah just wee checks you can do to put your mind at ease a bit.
I think there is a lot of talk about "topline" without a full appreciation of what it is, how it's made and what it can look like.
For example (can't remember user name) Fig the exracer went really hench and built, especially for a TB, with his dressage training. I would compare that more to a crossfit/lifter in human terms. As in developed strong muscles that can be explosive for power whilst strong for collection. There were a lot of really good comparison photos posted of him.
Then on the other hand look at the super fit horses racing and eventing. They are more lean with incredible cardio fitness. If someone posted a pic of a really fit horse I'm sure there would be replies that their horse was underweight etc.
I would say that bog is more that way developed because he does the work you've described. (Not saying hes underweight, again he looks spot on to me)
So yeah I don't think you have any cause for concern. Used the muscle names not just because I'm a geek but because it might help you to google and see some "painted horses" so you can see just how ok Bog is. The Gillian Higgins books are ace as easy references too.
Re feed its tricky because he looks so good just now in a low calorie feed and hopefully grass will appear soon (next to none here don't know what it's like with you). I'm not a fast fibre fan as it contains nutritionally improved straw but if it works. I don't know if swapping for something like linseed, pink mash or Copra would do the job. Possibly even supplement with some sort of amnio acids/spiruilla (hopefully spelt it correctly).
Forage Plus/Forage Talk have some good articles about feeding protein that might help give you some guidance
3hrs later after typing this and you've probably had umpteen replies all saying completely different things!
It's the superficial muscles that you can see and feel easily at the surface. The main ones "over the back", so to speak, are the Trapezius (pointing triangle is top of withers roughly with one side going up the neck (cervicis) and the other side extending beneath the saddle and where the points would be (thoracis)). Then you have the latissimis dorsi from beneath the bottom edge of your trapezius triangle from the shoulder going over the back and is what the saddle sits on.
The photos are from one side so to make a more accurate judgement ideally you would need photos from both sides, front, back and from above looking down across the back/shoulders/neck. However based on your photos all of those muscles look healthy.
If you are ever concerned about back pain or pressure points from a saddle you can do a regular check using your fingers or a pen with a lid.
Basically from the spine to the shelf of the ribs (where you start feeling ribs i.e. muscles between both markers) draw zig zags from the wither down then up to the spine and so on. Then approx 2" down from the spine draw a horizontal line and same again approx 4" down. Wother a biro with a lid on or your middle finger in top of inder finger with medium pressure. If there is a sore point then the muscle will twitch as you pass over it. If the pressure is too hard the horse will yield from it; that's a good thing as when there is "proper" back pain (KS for example) they dont react to pressure/pain because they resist against it.
So yeah just wee checks you can do to put your mind at ease a bit.
I think there is a lot of talk about "topline" without a full appreciation of what it is, how it's made and what it can look like.
For example (can't remember user name) Fig the exracer went really hench and built, especially for a TB, with his dressage training. I would compare that more to a crossfit/lifter in human terms. As in developed strong muscles that can be explosive for power whilst strong for collection. There were a lot of really good comparison photos posted of him.
Then on the other hand look at the super fit horses racing and eventing. They are more lean with incredible cardio fitness. If someone posted a pic of a really fit horse I'm sure there would be replies that their horse was underweight etc.
I would say that bog is more that way developed because he does the work you've described. (Not saying hes underweight, again he looks spot on to me)
So yeah I don't think you have any cause for concern. Used the muscle names not just because I'm a geek but because it might help you to google and see some "painted horses" so you can see just how ok Bog is. The Gillian Higgins books are ace as easy references too.
Re feed its tricky because he looks so good just now in a low calorie feed and hopefully grass will appear soon (next to none here don't know what it's like with you). I'm not a fast fibre fan as it contains nutritionally improved straw but if it works. I don't know if swapping for something like linseed, pink mash or Copra would do the job. Possibly even supplement with some sort of amnio acids/spiruilla (hopefully spelt it correctly).
Forage Plus/Forage Talk have some good articles about feeding protein that might help give you some guidance
3hrs later after typing this and you've probably had umpteen replies all saying completely different things!
ihatework
Well-Known Member
I think he looks fine. You are never going to change his basic underlying structure. He is obviously completely different to my ex-giant, but they also have similarities in shape and how they carry weight and muscle. This was him in fittening pre-2*, bearing in mind his heavy dose of carthorse 
Michen
Well-Known Member
Ah ok thanks guys I really appreciate the feedback! Was about to sob into my lunch when I read that he has no muscle ? truth is it’s hard for me to know what I’m looking at as I see him day in day out and I don’t want to think he looks normal if he doesn’t.
TPO I literally picked up some pink mash yesterday, actually for Bear as he’s got a bit whizzy now the grass is flushing and I thought it may help settle any gut discomfort but I can see if Bog will eat it. I’m amazed he eats the FF as he used to turn his nose up but weirdly since having Bear around he is less fussy, almost a competitive thing as they both get fed together etc. He has physio in ten days so I’ll see if she picks up on any saddle related soreness as well.
He’s already still on (dry high fibre) haylage but will have to move onto hay soon.
Micronised linseed seems a good thing to add. Maybe some alphabeet? Or saracens releve now has a new nut form which could tempt me back to buying it again!
TPO I literally picked up some pink mash yesterday, actually for Bear as he’s got a bit whizzy now the grass is flushing and I thought it may help settle any gut discomfort but I can see if Bog will eat it. I’m amazed he eats the FF as he used to turn his nose up but weirdly since having Bear around he is less fussy, almost a competitive thing as they both get fed together etc. He has physio in ten days so I’ll see if she picks up on any saddle related soreness as well.
He’s already still on (dry high fibre) haylage but will have to move onto hay soon.
Micronised linseed seems a good thing to add. Maybe some alphabeet? Or saracens releve now has a new nut form which could tempt me back to buying it again!
Bernster
Well-Known Member
PS I think he looks great, didn’t mean to say he wasn’t, it was just that for me I noticed an improvement in muscle with my boy in his new saddle.
HelenBack
Well-Known Member
What about a pelleted balancer instead of the pro hoof if you want a bit more protein? Clare MacLeod the nutritionist recommended that to me when I was worried my lad wasn't quite getting enough. Definitely with alfabeet and/or linseed would be helpful I'm sure.
I think he looks fine and we're just not used to seeing lean horses very much. I think connies do tend to be front wheel drive though and if mine drops weight he can pretty easily look poor behind while still looking fine at the front end.
I think he looks fine and we're just not used to seeing lean horses very much. I think connies do tend to be front wheel drive though and if mine drops weight he can pretty easily look poor behind while still looking fine at the front end.
Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
I think he looks in good nick, but if you decide to go for extra protein without adding much bulk you could try pea protein (available from forageplus). They have rather different needs to yours, but I have my 2 Cushing's horses on it.
I'm Dun
Well-Known Member
I'd be adding amino acids. They work out fairly economical from Progressive Earth and have definitely helped one of mine, alongside correct work etc
Michen
Well-Known Member
Hi all! Thought I owed an update. It’s all a bit sad in BogBear land.
Boggle gave me the most fantastic run a month ago (slightly embarrassing but funny video here), like he’d never been out of the game and jumped a beautiful double clear. We had too slow time faults in the SJ as it was hard then too fast in the XC (oops). He came out of it really well with a nice cold leg so pleased with that. Unfortunately a few weeks later he started stumbling in the trailer on left turns, he’s coming up to a year post injections for very minor hock arthritis so he’s just had them done, I’ve withdrawn from offchurch this weekend and will get him back up and running soon. He still feels absolutely brilliant and had just jumped two double clears out SJ with clean landings at every fence, so I’m really chuffed with the ligament side of things and hopefully we can settle the hocks if they are causing an issue again.
Bear was found to have a very minor soft tissue injury to the suspensory branch- it looks like he’s whacked it. It’s been tricky to diagnose and he was prescribed 3 months box rest with controlled walking. Unfortunately despite various contraptions in the last week he’s got away from me twice despite being seemingly very relaxed and chilled snd had a good gallop. This was an old party trick of his when he arrived from Ireland but I had got him out of it with lots of groundwork and a richard maxwell halter. So a bit disappointing. We Re scanned it today and it’s not worse but it’s certainly not better which after a month of box rest is disappointing.
So after a bit of soul searching he’s off to a local SJ yard to be turned out in a small paddock 24/7 with an elderly chap, where he can hopefully just rest and relax. current yard isn’t 24/7 and Boggle isn’t the most relaxing of field buddies, so unfortunately Boggle looses his mate for a while longer but Bear gains one! I think it’s the right thing to do and hopefully we will see some improvement in a few months and he can come back home on normal routine and start a walk rehab from the field (I am keeping my box at the yard). The intention is for him to go on full loan to my friend once I’ve got him up and running.
So good news and bad but both boys very cheerful, Boggle especially so as ever and hopefully we will get a couple of events more in this season but I’m still just delighted we even got to Ascott and that he’s on such brilliant form and looking a picture.
sj
xc video
Boggle gave me the most fantastic run a month ago (slightly embarrassing but funny video here), like he’d never been out of the game and jumped a beautiful double clear. We had too slow time faults in the SJ as it was hard then too fast in the XC (oops). He came out of it really well with a nice cold leg so pleased with that. Unfortunately a few weeks later he started stumbling in the trailer on left turns, he’s coming up to a year post injections for very minor hock arthritis so he’s just had them done, I’ve withdrawn from offchurch this weekend and will get him back up and running soon. He still feels absolutely brilliant and had just jumped two double clears out SJ with clean landings at every fence, so I’m really chuffed with the ligament side of things and hopefully we can settle the hocks if they are causing an issue again.
Bear was found to have a very minor soft tissue injury to the suspensory branch- it looks like he’s whacked it. It’s been tricky to diagnose and he was prescribed 3 months box rest with controlled walking. Unfortunately despite various contraptions in the last week he’s got away from me twice despite being seemingly very relaxed and chilled snd had a good gallop. This was an old party trick of his when he arrived from Ireland but I had got him out of it with lots of groundwork and a richard maxwell halter. So a bit disappointing. We Re scanned it today and it’s not worse but it’s certainly not better which after a month of box rest is disappointing.
So after a bit of soul searching he’s off to a local SJ yard to be turned out in a small paddock 24/7 with an elderly chap, where he can hopefully just rest and relax. current yard isn’t 24/7 and Boggle isn’t the most relaxing of field buddies, so unfortunately Boggle looses his mate for a while longer but Bear gains one! I think it’s the right thing to do and hopefully we will see some improvement in a few months and he can come back home on normal routine and start a walk rehab from the field (I am keeping my box at the yard). The intention is for him to go on full loan to my friend once I’ve got him up and running.
So good news and bad but both boys very cheerful, Boggle especially so as ever and hopefully we will get a couple of events more in this season but I’m still just delighted we even got to Ascott and that he’s on such brilliant form and looking a picture.
sj
xc video
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SEL
Well-Known Member
Love the video! He looks smashing and not at all like his hocks are bothering him - more like he could easily take on the bigger fences 
Annoying about Bear but horses really don't have the self preservation we want them to have when it comes to tendons and ligaments. I've watched wincing many a time whilst my mare decided to test out her dodgy suspensory with a series of acrobatic manoeuvres. Keeping fingers crossed he heals quickly.
Annoying about Bear but horses really don't have the self preservation we want them to have when it comes to tendons and ligaments. I've watched wincing many a time whilst my mare decided to test out her dodgy suspensory with a series of acrobatic manoeuvres. Keeping fingers crossed he heals quickly.
Welsh Dragon
Well-Known Member
Sorry to hear Bear isn't 100%, fingers crossed a holiday with a more 'mature' gentleman will do the trick.
I watched your XC video and it's clear that Boogle loves his work. He's looking cracking. Also lovely to hear you talking to him on your way round. It must feel like all those months of box rest and vets visits were worth it.
I watched your XC video and it's clear that Boogle loves his work. He's looking cracking. Also lovely to hear you talking to him on your way round. It must feel like all those months of box rest and vets visits were worth it.
PurBee
Well-Known Member
Lovely to hear an update on the boys!
Bog is a star on that xc course…looked like loads of fun….great camera work, you must be so chuffed he’s come round and youre out having fun together again ?
I hope Bear’s relocation fix will help him heal speedily….sounds like a good plan having in with limited turnout and a chilled-out companion. Its hard to tell horses “youve injured yourself, just take it easy, just walk and you’ll heal!”
My livelier gelding is much more chilled out with ultra relaxed mare, than what he would be with another horse of a similar nature to him, so companion choice is key for keeping them chilled out and reducing field antics.
Bog is a star on that xc course…looked like loads of fun….great camera work, you must be so chuffed he’s come round and youre out having fun together again ?
I hope Bear’s relocation fix will help him heal speedily….sounds like a good plan having in with limited turnout and a chilled-out companion. Its hard to tell horses “youve injured yourself, just take it easy, just walk and you’ll heal!”
My livelier gelding is much more chilled out with ultra relaxed mare, than what he would be with another horse of a similar nature to him, so companion choice is key for keeping them chilled out and reducing field antics.
Michen
Well-Known Member
Thank you! Added the sj video too
It was very special, he is very special and I just love the horse more than I can put into words!
I will miss my little Bear pony but it’s the right thing for him and he’s got his home to come back to when is ready. Despite my many attempts to get rid of him ?
It was very special, he is very special and I just love the horse more than I can put into words!
I will miss my little Bear pony but it’s the right thing for him and he’s got his home to come back to when is ready. Despite my many attempts to get rid of him ?
Tarragon
Well-Known Member
Lovely videos! and the "Good boy!" after every jump
Michen
Well-Known Member
Lovely videos! and the "Good boy!" after every jump
Ridiculous isn’t it, you’d think he was going around badminton ?
Ambers Echo
Still wittering on
So sorry things aren't quite right with your lovely boys. Hope Bear enjoys his holiday and comes back fighting fit x
RHM
Well-Known Member
I loved that XC video, Bog looks mega and you telling him he is a good boy after every fence makes me feel a bit emotional! So nice to see a partnership like that!
Sorry about bear though, hopefully the new yard does the job!
Sorry about bear though, hopefully the new yard does the job!
Michen
Well-Known Member
Thanks everyone. RHM I still get a bit emotional watching it
I was due to pack Bear off tomorrow but heart ruling head once again (no insurance money) and I want to throw some therapies at it despite their seemingly poor evidence of success in this sort of injury. So think we will try stem cell treatment, will probably keep him here until the vet can do it and then pack him off.
I was due to pack Bear off tomorrow but heart ruling head once again (no insurance money) and I want to throw some therapies at it despite their seemingly poor evidence of success in this sort of injury. So think we will try stem cell treatment, will probably keep him here until the vet can do it and then pack him off.
RHM
Well-Known Member
Thanks everyone. RHM I still get a bit emotional watching it
I was due to pack Bear off tomorrow but heart ruling head once again (no insurance money) and I want to throw some therapies at it despite their seemingly poor evidence of success in this sort of injury. So think we will try stem cell treatment, will probably keep him here until the vet can do it and then pack him off.
Mine had a suspensory injury 5 years ago and I would really recommend PRP, think it cost me £1.5k though ?
Michen
Well-Known Member
So vet said no to PRP, I think not enough of a hole?
Bog had it though.
Yep, 1.5k for the stem cell. But if it was Boggle I wouldn't think twice and it just seems really crappy to not apply the same logic to Bear even if he's not my "main man". At least I'll sleep at night