HHO's "Bear" project pony...

[CanteringCarrot]

I love your videos with Boggle. You two are such a great pair.

As for Bear, I don't know. If I had the means, I'd probably try the stem cell therapy, but I also have no idea on if it actually improves anything/works.

I do think the moving to some turnout is a good idea.

I hope this can heal and be a non-issue for you and Bear ?

 

[RHM]

So vet said no to PRP, I think not enough of a hole?

Bog had it though.

Yep, 1.5k for the stem cell. But if it was Boggle I wouldn't think twice and it just seems really crappy to not apply the same logic to Bear even if he's not my "main man". At least I'll sleep at night

Haha anything for a good night sleep! The science seems fairly robust for stem cell so you know you are at least not throwing good money after bad. I also had shockwave which is supposed to prevent scar tissue and thickening. Wouldn’t really recommend, it’s expensive and I don’t think it made a blind bit of difference to mine. Also the very expensive vet prescribed supplements did nothing! Mine took 6 months of rest and walking to become sound, hopefully bear won’t take as long! Heath had a gaping hole in his!

 

[Michen]

Haha anything for a good night sleep! The science seems fairly robust for stem cell so you know you are at least not throwing good money after bad. I also had shockwave which is supposed to prevent scar tissue and thickening. Wouldn’t really recommend, it’s expensive and I don’t think it made a blind bit of difference to mine. Also the very expensive vet prescribed supplements did nothing! Mine took 6 months of rest and walking to become sound, hopefully bear won’t take as long! Heath had a gaping hole in his!

Ah thanks that's encouraging. I need to do some reading.

He definitely doesn't have a big hole, the vet described it as having "lifted" slightly. So minor a surgeon had to review the scans just to make sure it's a "thing". But, minor as it may be, it's making him lame.. so it's sort of irrelevant as it's clearly causing an issue.

 

[RHM]

Ah thanks that's encouraging. I need to do some reading.

He definitely doesn't have a big hole, the vet described it as having "lifted" slightly. So minor a surgeon had to review the scans just to make sure it's a "thing". But, minor as it may be, it's making him lame.. so it's sort of irrelevant as it's clearly causing an issue.

Brilliant that you picked it up that quickly though! Mine was so stoic two vets said he was sound before he went in for a work up ?‍Should mean that you will hopefully have a good outcome!

 

[Michen]

Brilliant that you picked it up that quickly though! Mine was so stoic two vets said he was sound before he went in for a work up ?‍Should mean that you will hopefully have a good outcome!

Eek not sure we did, we thought it was foot balance so there was maybe 2/3 months... But he was mostly in walk during that time taking things easy anyway so wasn't jumping etc thank goodness.

 

[RHM]

Eek not sure we did, we thought it was foot balance so there was maybe 2/3 months... But he was mostly in walk during that time taking things easy anyway so wasn't jumping etc thank goodness.

Mine took a good three months too, annoyingly by that time he had done some secondary damage to his other leg ?‍ Bloody horses ey!

 

[Ceriann]

Took over 3 months to diagnose my mares branch injury. It was me not the vet that kept saying she wasn’t right on left hind with lameness locator showing sound. I did one month of box rest then 6 months in rotating box rest size paddocks with increasing in hand walks. Months of light hacking after that. Kept turnout to flat fields etc. She scanned clear after 6 months (following quite a nasty injury). It’s been hard but I scanned again before we upped the work and she was clear. I was told she would never be sound or return to full work - she’s defied both. The time away with small paddocks and time to recover will do him the world of good.

 

[Michen]

Well Bear is slowly killing me ??? I’ve posted elsewhere but he’s had an irritating very minor lameness which was eventually diagnosed as the tiniest of lesions in a suspensory branch. Box rest and in hand walking was a disaster and scan showed no improvement so he had expensive lipogem/stem cell treatment out of my own pocket and was turned out all summer in a quiet paddock.

Bought him home yesterday and had him scanned and lameness checked today. Scan shows a perfectly healed lesion! Brilliant. Can’t even see it anymore. But Bear is still lame, it’s so slight and previously it was much more visible under saddle. Now it’s very slight and no worse under saddle. Vet says bring him back into work as the Physio and movement may just help him along.

But we’ve also struggled with consistently raised liver enzymes which have come and gone, I know when they are back as he starts drinking copious amounts of water. Just had his bloods pulled today but I know what the answer will be. I’m out of insurance time and he’s had various stints of antibiotics but yet again it’s come back. He looks in great health (bar the below) and has never shown any physical liver issues other than the drinking.

His feet, which were absolutely rubbish have just barely grown all summer. I (and my vet) are sure it must be to do with the liver and generally being compromised. He’s previously been out of shoes and great on all surfaces but 3 months barefoot now and he’s footy even on smooth concrete. But I’m at my wits end as to what I’ll do now. We will do another biopsy but where else can we go treatment wise? He’s had the following :

- Change of yard/environment. No hay, only hay, only grass
- Long periods of antibiorics
- Mycosorb
- Expensive liver supplement.
- Full testing for liver fluke


Previous biopsy just showed mild liver damage , not ragwort related but no diagnosis really.

I don’t know whether to be more worried about the liver or the ligament and what to do with the horse from here. It seems fruitless to turn him away any longer as the vet thinks ligament now needs to do something to get it strengthened. The feet I guess may start growing with stimulation? The liver.. who knows.

He’s meant to be either going on loan to my friend or being sold. But I can’t do either unless I get on top of things. I mean he’s obviously absolutely unsellable now and unloanable too! There’s not exactly enough “wrong” with him to PTS, but if I’m still in this position in 6 weeks time..?

Absolutely at my wits end with him to be honest and have chucked so much money trying to do the best for him.

On the plus side- Bog is sound and great after a brief scare from an over zealous farrier trim so looking forward to hopping back on him tomorrow. Event season is over for him now but just glad he’s on good form. Here’s a pic of him being awesome to brighten the thread ?

 

[HappyHollyDays]

Just a thought re the liver but are you on a high iron content soil? It might be why his liver enzymes are raised and it could explain why his feet are not growing and he is now footy. I know you are meticulous in what you feed and the care you give your two so the trigger has to be something else.

 

[Michen]

Just a thought re the liver but are you on a high iron content soil? It might be why his liver enzymes are raised and it could explain why his feet are not growing and he is now footy. I know you are meticulous in what you feed and the care you give your two so the trigger has to be something else.

Possibly but I did have Boggles bloods done too and it wouldn’t make sense that it flared up again when I moved him? Albiet he was only 15 mins away.

Not sure what I’d do if it was soil related other than ship him to another county ? None of the other horses seem to have this issue

 

[Spanny]

I couldn't really 'like' your post (apart from the picture, which is awesome!) I just didn't want to read and run. I don't have much useful to add but I wonder if Bear's liver issues could be causing some pain (if there is inflammation) that is then causing the lameness (if he's moving a bit strangley to try to protect it). Hope you can find an answer soon.

 

[Michen]

I couldn't really 'like' your post (apart from the picture, which is awesome!) I just didn't want to read and run. I don't have much useful to add but I wonder if Bear's liver issues could be causing some pain (if there is inflammation) that is then causing the lameness (if he's moving a bit strangley to try to protect it). Hope you can find an answer soon.

A really good point but he’s been fairly regularly health checked and has definitely been sound (before this whole nightmare started) even with high enzymes. And definitely been lame when they’ve been normal. Not to say it couldn’t all be affecting him more though.

A puzzle ? thanks for the suggestion. X

 

[GinaGeo]

Which leg is he not right on now?

I only ask because when one of mine had ongoing not rightness in his whole body (feet, allergies, not 100% on RH) we had issues with hind gut. It’s taken awhile to get right. And we have used prebiotics and ultimately Equibiome Tests and their protocol.

I remember reading an article somewhere linking gut to liver issues. I’ll see if I can find it.

 

[Michen]

Which leg is he not right on now?

I only ask because when one of mine had ongoing not rightness in his whole body (feet, allergies, not 100% on RH) we had issues with hind gut. It’s taken awhile to get right. And we have used prebiotics and ultimately Equibiome Tests and their protocol.

I remember reading an article somewhere linking gut to liver issues. I’ll see if I can find it.

It’s the right hind. He has always been on brewers yeast too, I guess I could go down the route of hind gut testing (succeed) etc, or just a good supplement maybe. I don’t really know where to spend the money next and frankly I don’t really want to spend any at all. Even today’s bill (£650 ish) is just starting to feel pretty painful.

I do want to do what’s best for him hence investing in the lipogem and doubling up on livery this summer to keep his space at home, but any further diagnosticy stuff at this point just feels a bit like throwing good money after bad.

Can you tell me more about the equibiome?

I guess also if it is hind gut issues why is a young horse out of work having that flare up?

 

[GinaGeo]

It’s the right hind. He has always been on brewers yeast too, I guess I could go down the route of hind gut testing (succeed) etc, or just a good supplement maybe. I don’t really know where to spend the money next and frankly I don’t really want to spend any at all. Even today’s bill (£650 ish) is just starting to feel pretty painful.

I do want to do what’s best for him hence investing in the lipogem and doubling up on livery this summer to keep his space at home, but any further diagnosticy stuff at this point just feels a bit like throwing good money after bad.

Can you tell me more about the equibiome?

I guess also if it is hind gut issues why is a young horse out of work having that flare up?

So mine was 2 when his kicked off. I don’t think he got the colostrum needed (older mare) and he had a bit of a worm burden. It all culminated when he had a nasty cut that needed lots of antibiotics. And hey presto gut disaster. If you’ve heavily used antibiotics I wouldn’t be surprised at all if there are hind gut issues. The caecum is on the right and can cause right hind lameness.

I saw an improvement with the Equibiome Prebiotic. And then again once I’d tested and treated accordingly. The test does take about 6weeka and isn’t a quick fix. I’d probably try their prebiotic first and see if you see an improvement.

It all basically about the Gut Biome and the bacteria present. Bad bacteria can cause inflammation and other related issues.

This is the article I read re. Liver and gut.

https://www.equibiome.org/post/design-a-stunning-blog

It looks like there’s been a link in humans too:

https://gut.bmj.com/content/65/12/2035

Edited to say I was a sceptic. But was at my wits end. And had exhausted my vets suggestions.

 

[Michen]

So mine was 2 when his kicked off. I don’t think he got the colostrum needed (older mare) and he had a bit of a worm burden. It all culminated when he had a nasty cut that needed lots of antibiotics. And hey presto gut disaster. If you’ve heavily used antibiotics I wouldn’t be surprised at all if there are hind gut issues. The caecum is on the right and can cause right hind lameness.

I saw an improvement with the Equibiome Prebiotic. And then again once I’d tested and treated accordingly. The test does take about 6weeka and isn’t a quick fix. I’d probably try their prebiotic first and see if you see an improvement.

It all basically about the Gut Biome and the bacteria present. Bad bacteria can cause inflammation and other related issues.

This is the article I read re. Liver and gut.

https://www.equibiome.org/post/design-a-stunning-blog

Edited to say I was a sceptic. But was at my wits end. And had exhausted my vets suggestions.

Thanks for posting that GG I'll give it a good read and chat with my vet when we have the bloods tomorrow.

 

[spark56]

No idea if this is relevant, but EquiNatural stopped using brewers yeast in their supplements, saying that the latest research has shown it can be a gut disrupter.

 

[Michen]

No idea if this is relevant, but EquiNatural stopped using brewers yeast in their supplements, saying that the latest research has shown it can be a gut disrupter.

Oh heck, I was feeding it for the B vits on vet recommendation.

I can't get anything right with this pony!!

Thanks x

 

[ycbm]

https://equinatural.co.uk/i/brewers-yeast-and-why-we-shouldn-t-feed-it-anymore

Damn it I've just bought a new 25kg sack!

Does anyone know if yeasacc is still OK? I guess not, as it's the live version of exactly the same yeast.

?

 

[spark56]

The supplement I get from EquiNatural still includes yea sacc.

 

[ycbm]

The supplement I get from EquiNatural still includes yea sacc.

Does anyone want to share a delivery of yea-sacc with me? I can get 5 sacks for £70 each, but you need to be able to collect from Macclesfield.
.

 

[shortstuff99]

When one of mine had liver issues (environmental and then after a colic operation) the vet told us to feed vitamin E. I used the pro earth natural vitamin E at the high rate and that really helped.

 

[splashgirl45]

this is likely to be no use but a friend had a horse with liver problems and she fed milk thistle, it seemed to help....sorry if you have already tried it but if not could be worth a go. such a shame you are having so many problems especially as you had a good home lined up. fingers crossed you will be able to get the lovely boy sorted..

 

[Michen]

When one of mine had liver issues (environmental and then after a colic operation) the vet told us to feed vitamin E. I used the pro earth natural vitamin E at the high rate and that really helped.

Ok great thanks that could be another option then! Does it need to be the natural version I wonder?

SG, thanks, the expensive supp he was on was basically milk thistle..Legaphyton equistro

 

[shortstuff99]

Ok great thanks that could be another option then! Does it need to be the natural version I wonder?

SG, thanks, the expensive supp he was on was basically milk thistle..Legaphyton equistro

It probably doesn't have to be the natural version but it does have a better uptake.

 

[splashgirl45]

ok, thought i had better mention it just in case it helped. good luck

 

[jhoward]

Milk thistle is a natural herbal for liver functions.
May be worth trying him on a high dosage, whilst it won't cure it will enhance ...I've always been a bit closed eyed to such things but was first introduced to it when I had a horse with navicular ( studies show also connected to the liver)

It certainly won't hurt to try it.

 

[shortstuff99]

Vitamin E has been shown to help reduce liver disease in humans too I would try it as it is a lot cheaper then the veterinary liver supplements.

 

[SusieT]

If he's footy then shoeing seems like the obvious solution to assess if bruising could be contributing.

 

[Michen]

If he's footy then shoeing seems like the obvious solution to assess if bruising could be contributing.

Yep I’m toying with the idea but shoeing seems to be sticky plastering the issue. He has flat feet, contracted heels and I’m still struggling to get on top of the thrush in front feet. I quite literally found the best farrier I could and was paying over £300 a set and whilst the feet didn’t get worse they didn’t get better either.

He’s not footy in boots, so it’s not an issue to boot him to keep him comfy, I just find it concerning that a horse who was previously fine out of shoes is now struggling so much on surfaces he didn’t beforehand.