Hi-Vis

[dorsetladette]

Just seen a video on FB local police page. A car turned right on a bright sunny day in what seemed a clear road, but a motorbike was coming (quickly) the other way. They collided and the motorbike rider sustained life changing injuries. The driver received 6 points and a fine.

But in the video the bike could barely be seen. The bike was black and the rider had full black leathers on. It was a country road (not a lane) with trees either side creating shade.

IMHO bike riders should wear some sort of hi vis, or at least make themselves more visible.

What do you think?

 

[HappyHollyDays]

Many bikers do wear hi-viz but in the same way as some riders, runners and cyclist don’t there are always a few who feel it doesn’t apply to them and they are invincible.

 

[bouncing_ball]

Many bikers do wear hi-viz but in the same way as some riders, runners and cyclist don’t there are always a few who feel it doesn’t apply to them and they are invincible.

I think that is why there aren't that many older risk taking, believe they are invincible motorbike road riders.

 

[Arzada]

What do you think?

I think that for some people it's getting harder and harder to see anything that isn't a minimum of a car width simply because of the proliferation of running lights. If something 4' wide 'needs' running lights so that it can be seen there's little hope for the narrower and less illuminated ie pedestrians, cyclists, bikers. And while I'm on the subject it's getting harder to see front indicators which are becoming smaller and less bright than the running lights.

Interestingly, and upsettingly, a male driver took the trouble to lower his window on the beautiful sunny and dry day that was Christmas Day to shout at me that my front light was on. All 2' and 50 kg of me on my bike.

In the sad event you describe ie entering a shaded country road I, as a car driver, would have had my window down to listen for approaching vehicles and to inform my decision on when to make the turn. I hope that the day that I get it wrong never comes.

 

[popcorn1]

Drive to the road conditions. If you can't see clearly because of sun or too much shade or whatever then slow down.

 

[cauda equina]

I hope the time will come when injuring or killing someone with your car will attract the same sort of penalties as injuring or killing them in any other way

 

[Leandy]

I have real reservations about the view that if something isn't high viz or lit up like a Christmas tree then drivers should not be expecting it. If you cannot see that the road is actually clear then you are going too fast. You are required to be able to stop in the distance ahead you can see to be clear, not the distance you thought was clear despite going too fast to see properly. Of course suddenly being blinded unexpectedly by the sun may mean there is a moment where you are still moving and can't see and if something happens in that moment then that is an unfortunate accident but we don't know the circumstances of the crash the OP describes. If the driver turned into the road too fast, didn't slow down sufficiently when he was unsighted then I can see he is at fault. I don't like the victim blaming which says someone is at fault if they are hit because they were not wearing hi viz. Wearing hi viz may mean that in fact you are more visible so the chances of being hit are less, but that does not make it your fault if you are hit because you were not wearing hi viz. It is sensible to protect yourself by being more visible but there isn't an obligation to do so.

So, the bike rider may also have been at fault for going too fast for the light conditions and the fact he was coming to a junction, but I don't think he should be regarded as partly to blame for not wearing hi viz. Also, we don't know what the positioning was on the road when they collided. It was a "road not a lane" implies it was wide enough for both to pass. Who was in the wrong place, or were they both? I presume the bike rider has been punished enough through his injuries if he was driving badly also. Don't know enough about the circumstances of this accident to know whether the driver's penalties are sufficient or not.

 

[bouncing_ball]

I hope the time will come when injuring or killing someone with your car will attract the same sort of penalties as injuring or killing them in any other way

I take it you are not an established driver then? As I have been driving nearly 25 years, and it is unavoidable to know have the odd heart stopping near miss, when a cyclist / pedestrian / rider / other car driver does something truly stupid or steps out of the shadows in front of you / is preceding on a dark day, in day clothes and dont show up around the corner.

Of course I try and drive for the conditions / the location and look out for all unexpected / poorly visible road users. But accidents life changing or fatal can happen without fault on the drivers part, as well as when the driver is actively negligent.

 

[dorsetladette]

For reference here is the video I mentioned.
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10157784738352310&id=10857872309

 

[popcorn1]

Having just watched the video, how you could possibly place any blame on the motorcyclist is beyond me.

 

[ihatework]

Having just watched the video, how you could possibly place any blame on the motorcyclist is beyond me.

Beyond me too.
Hope the rider is ok and the driver had the book thrown at them.

 

[bonny]

This has nothing whatsoever to do with hi viz. some people on here seem to think lack of it means it’s your fault when some idiot driver runs you over and I think as vulnerable road uses it’s a odd way of looking at things ....

 

[milliepops]

Having just watched the video, how you could possibly place any blame on the motorcyclist is beyond me.

Agreed.
Looks like a total lack of care and attention from that angle. How awful

I agree with PPs that while Hi viz is never a bad idea it shouldn't be the be all and end all. You can wear hi viz top to toe and it wont make a blind bit of difference if the other driver isn't concentrating.

 

[Nevin's Run]

Father in law is currently battling with lawyers after a driver came round a corner on the wrong side of the road and took him and his motorcycle out. I'm not sure he'd even fully recovered from the previous hospitalisation following someone backing their car out into the road and not looking both ways. The list goes on and on.

He rides decked out like a Christmas tree - there are just so many ignorant, blind numpties on the road, the vulnerable roads users bear the brunt.

 

[dorsetladette]

Having just watched the video, how you could possibly place any blame on the motorcyclist is beyond me.

Please dont think that my post was blaming the bike rider. I'm just thinking from a riders point of view. We are all asked to wear high vis. And most of us do it without a second thought. I honestly can't see the bike in that video until after the car has turned.

Justice has taken its course. I just wanted to open a discussion about the visibility aspect of the video as there are many videos of horse riders not wearing high vis.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

You can't see the bike because the camera's view of it is completely blocked by the car that hits it. The view of the road in the still is from after the accident, hence why there is no bike in the still image.

 

[bonny]

Please dont think that my post was blaming the bike rider. I'm just thinking from a riders point of view. We are all asked to wear high vis. And most of us do it without a second thought. I honestly can't see the bike in that video until after the car has turned.

Justice has taken its course. I just wanted to open a discussion about the visibility aspect of the video as there are many videos of horse riders not wearing high vis.

We’ve had many discussions about high viz and people will come on and say everybody should wear it and that they always do but the problem here is you used a clip of a motorcyclist being hit by a car that illustrated only that some people drive like no one else is on the road. It has nothing to do with high viz and everything to do with bad driving !

 

[Frano]

Basically we need to ride defensively , you need to be alert and wear hi viz to make your self visible. There are to many bad drivers on the road who have no idea about animals, country roads poor visibility. We need to be aware of this. Riders , cyclists runners etc will all come of worst in a collision with a vehicle. We need to be more alert and prepared for meeting bad drivers. Obviously lots of people should not be allowed behind the wheel of a car and in a perfect world they wouldn’t. But this world is not perfect, so we must bear this in mind when out and about.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Cyclists and motorbikers clad all in black aren’t helping themselves to be seen, but in the clip shown the motorcyclist will have been in clear unobstructed view of the driver before she turned across him. The sun did not appear to be dazzling and the biker’s side of the road was not shaded. She just wasn’t paying attention.

I agree with the poster who says that the proliferation of daylight running lights on all new vehicles is upping the ante as to what the rest of us road users need to do to compete to be seen.

 

[Littlefloof]

For those who haven't seen it before, this is an interesting, measured and helpful article which explains how all of us can be blind to other road users, and what to do about it.

https://www.portsmouthctc.org.uk/a-fighter-pilots-guide-to-surviving-on-the-roads/

 

[little_critter]

Drive to the road conditions. If you can't see clearly because of sun or too much shade or whatever then slow down.

Reminds me of something my driving instructor said about checking at junctions...it was something along the lines of
"Is it you can't see anything coming, or is it you CAN see that there is NOTHING coming"
If you can't see then you can't be sure.

 

[Goldenstar]

I hope the time will come when injuring or killing someone with your car will attract the same sort of penalties as injuring or killing them in any other way

What ! You really think a driving accident should carry the same penalty as the premeditated murder with a say a gun or deliberately driving a vehicle into a crowd to kill as many as possible .
i have say I profoundly disagree with you .
on bikers and high Viz perhaps they should yes wear it more but if sun played a part it’s unlikely it would have helped .

 

[Hanno Verian]

For those who haven't seen it before, this is an interesting, measured and helpful article which explains how all of us can be blind to other road users, and what to do about it.

https://www.portsmouthctc.org.uk/a-fighter-pilots-guide-to-surviving-on-the-roads/

What a fabulous article.... and really relevant.

Coming back to the original post, just because a cyclist/runner/rider/walker isnt wearing hi viz shouldn't absolve drivers of their responsibilities, but equally we as road users need to accept responsibility for our own actions and take appropriate measures, wearing hi viz or flashing lights etc.

It reminds me of a study in the 90's that found that the most effective hi viz on a horse was in the form of boots, because the legs are generally moving, the hi viz is moving and the eye is drawn to the movement.

I would like to see it a taken into account with regards to insurance that you are not covered if you don't meet a minimum standard of say wearing a tabard, viewing it as contributory negligence on the part of the rider/walker/runner/cyclist

 

[Annagain]

That's just an appalling piece of driving. Although you can't see the bike in the video (due to the car that hit it blocking the view) it looks like those conditions were nigh on perfect. It was a bright day but in a good way, nothing that would cause the driver to be dazzled. There's no reason why she wouldn't have seen the bike - even with the the bike being black and the rider wearing black - other than not paying enough attention.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I’ve shown these dash cam stills before. In this instance, the low bright January sun from the side and the wet roads combined to create a ‘black spot’ in the shadow of the hedge. Our side of the road was clear, all good, but all that alerted me to the two horses coming towards us was the riders’s heads bobbing about over the hedge and the horse’s shadows on the road on our side. Even when we knew there must be horses there, it was damn difficult to make them out against the hedge until we were close up. The lead rider did have a hi viz tabard on, but whether it was grubby or not I don’t know, as it barely showed up.

 

[Rowreach]

Basically we need to ride defensively , you need to be alert and wear hi viz to make your self visible. There are to many bad drivers on the road who have no idea about animals, country roads poor visibility. We need to be aware of this. Riders , cyclists runners etc will all come of worst in a collision with a vehicle. We need to be more alert and prepared for meeting bad drivers. Obviously lots of people should not be allowed behind the wheel of a car and in a perfect world they wouldn’t. But this world is not perfect, so we must bear this in mind when out and about.

I totally agree with this, and it's not victim blaming. Ok it shouldn't be the case that we have to assume that other road users might not be that great, but as a vulnerable user whether as a pedestrian, dog walker or rider, I am always taking measures to keep myself/dogs/horse as safe as possible and not just going along with the attitude that I am entitled to be there and in the right, and forgetting that I'll come off worst in the event of something going wrong.

 

[cauda equina]

What ! You really think a driving accident should carry the same penalty as the premeditated murder with a say a gun or deliberately driving a vehicle into a crowd to kill as many as possible .
i have say I profoundly disagree with you .
on bikers and high Viz perhaps they should yes wear it more but if sun played a part it’s unlikely it would have helped .

Murder and manslaughter are different things, and carry different penalties
Deaths on the road seem to be regarded as a normal, unremarkable thing - think how road deaths, of which there are many, are reported (or not) compared to eg knifings and terrorist incidents - but they must be just as devastating for those involved

 

[Annagain]

Murder and manslaughter are different things, and carry different penalties
Deaths on the road seem to be regarded as a normal, unremarkable thing - think how road deaths, of which there are many, are reported (or not) compared to eg knifings and terrorist incidents - but they must be just as devastating for those involved

As somebody who has lost a friend to a road accident, of course it was devastating but I am not aggrieved that his death was not the subject of media attention, in fact I'm glad it wasn't - that would just be an intrusion for his family. Incidentally, the driver was not at fault at all, it was caught on CCTV and my friend inexplicably just stepped out to cross the road at the wrong moment. The police were able to establish fairly quickly what caused the incident and simply produced a report for the coroner. However, police often need the public's help to catch and prosecute those responsible for deliberate attacks and that's why they get media attention - due to police appeals. With car accidents, the vast majority of people involved are still at the scene and the evidence that is gathered there is enough. Plenty of murders don't get any attention in the media for the same reason.

 

[Leandy]

"Is it you can't see anything coming, or is it you CAN see that there is NOTHING coming"

This sums it up perfectly. Its great to be on the defensive and be seen in hi viz from a long way off, but it shouldn't be necessary to avoid being hit! A driver just needs to be able to see whether the road is clear in the distance he needs to stop, which is not from light years away. IMHO a driver who is unable to see that something the size of a horse and rider/motorcyclist/invalid carriage/party of ramblers is in the road at 100m (which is the average stopping distance even at 70mph) is seriously at fault! And if he cannot see that far ahead due to light conditions/weather/bends in the road, he needs to slow down until the distance he can see to be clear is no less than his stopping distance. Many drivers are dangerously complacent on a daily basis. It usually doesn't matter because there isn't an obstruction, but occasionally there is and drivers need to to be expecting the unexpected, not assuming all is well even out of their sight line. I'd really like to see much more publicity about this. The roads are not race tracks or video games, they are rights of way for many types of users who all have equal rights to use them and all need to have consideration for each other's vulnerabilities.

 

[cauda equina]

As somebody who has lost a friend to a road accident, of course it was devastating but I am not aggrieved that his death was not the subject of media attention, in fact I'm glad it wasn't - that would just be an intrusion for his family. Incidentally, the driver was not at fault at all, it was caught on CCTV and my friend inexplicably just stepped out to cross the road at the wrong moment. The police were able to establish fairly quickly what caused the incident and simply produced a report for the coroner. However, police often need the public's help to catch and prosecute those responsible for deliberate attacks and that's why they get media attention - due to police appeals. With car accidents, the vast majority of people involved are still at the scene and the evidence that is gathered there is enough. Plenty of murders don't get any attention in the media for the same reason.

I am so sorry