Hi viz doesn't make it safe...

MotherOfChickens

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I only give signals if they are relevant to my control of my horse, for instance straight road good width no on coming traffic car coming from behind at fiftyish mph if they start to slow I may wave them on as I dont need them to crawl past
Or I will give a signal to slow down If I need them to but I don't tell them it's safe to overtake on bends it's not my responsibility to decide if theres space for a car to go past.
As a driver I totally ignore riders telling me its safe to pass on bends if I can't see I don't go of course if a rider indicates they wish me to stop I do but that's different .

I find that 99% of drivers have no idea what the slow down signal means tbh, have even had people wave gaily back at me! I only wave drivers on when I can see clearly there is nothing at all coming and I know they can't. I am higher up, I can hear and I can see all the potential hazards that they cannot and if its not safe, I don't do it and I wouldn't want kids doing it. Most of our roads aren't single track and vis is good-especially if the rider uses hi viz.

For those of you who won't take another road users word for it being safe, what do you do when stuck behind tractors?
 

SpottedCat

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I'm not suggesting that individuals shouldn't trot to get clear of hazards if they perceive it to be safer, but I do think it is unfair to suggest on a public forum that people riding in a perfectly legal and safe way are doing something dangerous and that the onus is on them and not on car drivers to use the road appropriately. Just because they didn't trot somewhere you would, and they had a queue of traffic, does not make them bad road users I'm afraid.

I will often ride out from the hedge/two abreast at one particular bit of road because it is not wide enough for a car to get past without being so close that one mis-step from my horse would put us in the car with the driver, but it looks wide enough to the untrained eye. It's also downhill on slippy tarmac, so I won't trot it, even though it's after a blind bend. So yes, I build up a queue of traffic behind me - then I pull in and thank them all at the bottom.
 
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AmyMay

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I will often ride out from the hedge at one particular bit of road because it is not wide enough for a car to get past without being so close that one mis-step from my horse would put us in the car with the driver, but it looks wide enough to the untrained eye. It's also downhill on slippy tarmac, so I won't trot it, even though it's after a blind bend. So yes, I build up a queue of traffic behind me - then I pull in and thank them all at the bottom.

This, this, this, this!!!!!!!
 

Goldenstar

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I find that 99% of drivers have no idea what the slow down signal means tbh, have even had people wave gaily back at me! I only wave drivers on when I can see clearly there is nothing at all coming and I know they can't. I am higher up, I can hear and I can see all the potential hazards that they cannot and if its not safe, I don't do it and I wouldn't want kids doing it. Most of our roads aren't single track and vis is good-especially if the rider uses hi viz.

For those of you who won't take another road users word for it being safe, what do you do when stuck behind tractors?

Wait till I can see , always If I am driving I must see .
I would make an exception for a police officer or workman manning traffic control on road works but no one esle I can think of , I just don't trust others judgement I am responsible of my car no one else.
Round here most drivers understand the slow down signal of course it may be they slow because they are reading the situation not the signal .
 

DabDab

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I think what the op was getting at was a 'blind bend', which are so called because you can't see around them until you are going round them. There are a lot of these bends on the country lanes around here, and it is not the case that you can only see things on the outside of the bend or if they're draped in high vis - you genuinely cannot see anything until you round the bend.

I have been the driver in this situation once - I rounded a corner at something between 20 and 25 mph in a modern car, with very sharp breaks and I only just stopped behind three riders side-by-side across the width of the road. They were wearing high vis, but I couldn't see them and I was driving slowly, low down in the rev range so they couldn't hear me over the wind. If on that occasion I had been driving a different vehicle or going a little faster (60mph speed limit road), I don't think I would have been able to stop.
 

pennyturner

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If you are behind a horse or carriage approaching a bad bend, please try to slow/stop BEFORE the corner, and give them time to get clear.

People behind you will think you're barmy, but you will be doing everyone a huge favour.
 

indie999

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Most people are taught to pass a test not how to drive properly. If you cant see up ahead then you are going too fast. Back to the original point Hi viz does work and if you are riding two abreast on a bend you are nuts. Road users coming up do not know you are there and they are probably going too fast to stop. On a sharp bend I made sure that nothing was coming along behind me to give me a chance to trot like hell to make good headway and give myself some slack. I would not want to ride two abreast on a bend. (no one can see whats round a corner) yes the police ride two abreast but then you must have seen them?
 

oldie48

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I think what the op was getting at was a 'blind bend', which are so called because you can't see around them until you are going round them. There are a lot of these bends on the country lanes around here, and it is not the case that you can only see things on the outside of the bend or if they're draped in high vis - you genuinely cannot see anything until you round the bend.

I have been the driver in this situation once - I rounded a corner at something between 20 and 25 mph in a modern car, with very sharp breaks and I only just stopped behind three riders side-by-side across the width of the road. They were wearing high vis, but I couldn't see them and I was driving slowly, low down in the rev range so they couldn't hear me over the wind. If on that occasion I had been driving a different vehicle or going a little faster (60mph speed limit road), I don't think I would have been able to stop.

Well they shouldn't have been 3 abreast but what about if there had been a parked car, or a child lying in the road by a cycle.....if you can't stop in time, you are driving too fast.
 

pennyturner

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Well they shouldn't have been 3 abreast but what about if there had been a parked car, or a child lying in the road by a cycle.....if you can't stop in time, you are driving too fast.

That's the problem with BLIND bends.

It's also the reason that first responders are taught to make a situation safe, by either moving the hazard or putting warning signs before the bend, even before administering first aid.

In your hypothetical child on bike situation, in this location they would close the road before they allowed anyone to treat the child - who would in any case probably have already been hit by several vehicles :(
 

SpottedCat

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Well they shouldn't have been 3 abreast but what about if there had been a parked car, or a child lying in the road by a cycle.....if you can't stop in time, you are driving too fast.

Exactly this - if you cannot see, you should be crawling! I saw another accident relatively recently on a blind summit in the village I live in - I'd followed an Audi from the village up a narrow lane with blind bends and a blind summit - he was driving entirely appropriately - crawling round the corners and approached the blind summit at less than 10mph. Unfortunately for him, the idiotic woman in a Peugeot came flying over the hill and hit him head on, mangling the cars so badly they could not even be reversed out - and hers was stuck half way up a hedge bank. He asked me if I'd be a witness for the insurance (luckily neither were hurt), and I was happy to as there was no way it was his fault, he could not have done any more to prevent the accident. She, on the other hand, was entirely to blame because she didn't drive appropriately for the road, and I hope the insurance went in his favour, because he did not deserve any of the blame whatsoever.

She was lucky there wasn't a kid on a bike coming the other way, she'd have killed them.
 

Shadow the Reindeer

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All drivers should understand hand signals surely? Isn't that part of learning to drive?

picture.php


http://www.drivingtesttips.biz/driving-hand-signals.html

So you're saying 99% of drivers don't understand them? Motherofchicken.
 
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oldie48

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That's the problem with BLIND bends.

It's also the reason that first responders are taught to make a situation safe, by either moving the hazard or putting warning signs before the bend, even before administering first aid.

In your hypothetical child on bike situation, in this location they would close the road before they allowed anyone to treat the child - who would in any case probably have already been hit by several vehicles :(

Not if you are first on the scene!
 

SpottedCat

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All drivers should understand hand signals surely? Isn't that part of learning to drive?

picture.php


http://www.drivingtesttips.biz/driving-hand-signals.html

So you're saying 99% of drivers don't understand them?

Yes, but note the last one - it DOESN'T mean 'please slow down' - which is how the vast majority of riders use it when signaling to a driver, it means I am going to slow down. The drivers who don't respond might well be wondering why the hell something going at 3mph is telling them it is going to slow down ;)
 

wench

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Personally I would think riding two abreast around d a blind bend is stupid. If a driver comes up behind you driving like an idiot, he's got more room to swerve out the way if riders are in single file, rather than two abreast in the middle of the road. The same would be true if it were push bikes instead of horses
 

DabDab

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Well they shouldn't have been 3 abreast but what about if there had been a parked car, or a child lying in the road by a cycle.....if you can't stop in time, you are driving too fast.

Parked car - swerve to avoid, horse on the left hand side of the road - swerve to avoid, car coming the other way - swerve to avoid. But three horses spread out across the road leaves you nowhere to go if you can't stop in time. I did stop in time, but I am one of the slowest drivers on those roads and I am not going to ride my horse down them on a hope and a prayer that I don't meet someone driving down the lanes at 40mph.
 

Shadow the Reindeer

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Yes, but note the last one - it DOESN'T mean 'please slow down' - which is how the vast majority of riders use it when signaling to a driver, it means I am going to slow down. The drivers who don't respond might well be wondering why the hell something going at 3mph is telling them it is going to slow down ;)

Don't think it helps when the same signal means two different things tbh..

http://think.direct.gov.uk/assets/pdf/dg_195239.pdf
 

MotherOfChickens

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All drivers should understand hand signals surely? Isn't that part of learning to drive?

picture.php


http://www.drivingtesttips.biz/driving-hand-signals.html

So you're saying 99% of drivers don't understand them? Motherofchicken.

that one isn't being used correctly as SC points out. I've known this for a few years but it took my OH to point it out to me, that was how I was taught to ask traffic to slow down when on a horse.
Although the drivers around my way are pretty good on the whole (there aren't that many tbh) very few of them will slow down more than they already are or stop when asked.
 

OWLIE185

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I would suggest that when two horse riders are riding round a bend the best defensive riding would be to be riding in single file but slightly off the verge. In that case both riders have a small margin (escape route) to move in to the verge of the road in an emergency situation.

We had one route in North London (Totteridge Lane) were the road narrowed and went steeply downhill/uphill with no escape route. Luckily one of the nice horse friendly house owners provided us with an off-road route. It is still there 40 years later so thank you very much Mr ******* for providing us with this safe rout for us to ride along

Unfortunately cars are so much more powerful these days and many drivers fail to understand that their vehicle is not a guided missile which needs to travel at a constant speed whether they can see round bends or not.
 

pennyturner

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Unfortunately cars are so much more powerful these days and many drivers fail to understand that their vehicle is not a guided missile which needs to travel at a constant speed whether they can see round bends or not.

That would be so funny if it weren't true.
 

Zero00000

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Me and my hubby ended up in a bush in our van for the same reasons at the weekend except it was cyclists in the middle of the road and 2 or 3 abreast on a blind bend, I was shaking, if the cyclist was a meter or so further in front he would have been in the cab with us!

They too were wearing very bright colours, but doesnt stop you from seeing them, it was uphill on a bend, so they were going very fast, we were doing about 30 ish, on a 60mph road, probably less due to uphill, in a work van full to the brim with tools and 6 bales of hay, 5 sacks of feed.
 
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BHS_official

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While all traffic should read the road and travel only at a speed that they can stop at if the road ahead has a bend or dip, I'm not prepared to risk the chance that all drivers know how to drive correctly.

That's why I'll continue to check for a clear road before trotting smartly on around a blind bend- and no, I won't hug the hedge because that lessens visibility and gives me no where to go if a car does bomb around the corner.

If it takes 15 seconds in walk, to get clear of a bend, I'd rather trot on and be clear of the hazard in 5 seconds.

And no, I won't be controlling traffic unless its an emergency. Waving traffic on around bends could cause an accident. I'll let the driver decide when they have enough visibility to overtake.

BHS Riding and Road Safety is designed to teach roadcraft and provide riders with the skills to make educated judgements in order to keep themselves, their horses and other road users safe.

In some situations, riders may ride two abreast, such as when escorting a child rider or young horse. In the right situation, riders may make a decision to ask traffic to slow - however, riders should not wave traffic on as this could lead to an accident, as horserider suggests.
 

Goldenstar

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Personally I would think riding two abreast around d a blind bend is stupid. If a driver comes up behind you driving like an idiot, he's got more room to swerve out the way if riders are in single file, rather than two abreast in the middle of the road. The same would be true if it were push bikes instead of horses

But the riders in this case had cars behind them ,going single file might encourage the cars behind to try to get past.
I have seen this happen the person I was with felt the car touch her stirrup and lost her whip when a car came the other way and there was not room.
 

pennyturner

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I actually disagree with OP. If its that bad a bend then 2 abreast is probably the best choice.

Before the bend maybe, AFTER the bend - suicidal and inconsiderate.

This is a busy B road. Things are coming around behind you at 50-60mph, quite legitimately - and that's the good drivers. The bad ones are doing 70, and barely holding onto the corner, which isn't obvious until they're on it.
 

pip6

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Me and my hubby ended up in a bush in our van for the same reasons at the weekend except it was cyclists in the middle of the road and 2 or 3 abreast on a blind bend, I was shaking, if the cyclist was a meter or so further in front he would have been in the cab with us!

They too were wearing very bright colours, but doesnt stop you from seeing them, it was uphill on a bend, so they were going very fast, we were doing about 30 ish, on a 60mph road, probably less due to uphill, in a work van full to the brim with tools and 6 bales of hay, 5 sacks of feed.

If you couldn't stop safely & in control before the hazard you were driving too fast.

BTW 'hand signals' are gestures made by people with road rage, they ones shown are 'arm signals'.

Blind bends are not dangerous, no more so than your car parked on your drive with the engine switched off. Is is how the users choose to negotiate them that brings in the risk (or drive their cars). That they are doing it at an inappropriate speed shows poor understanding of the situation & the need to improve driver awareness & driving skills. Ironically those drivers who think they are showing off their superior driving prowess (& no doubt you are ment to gasp in awe when they pass) are actually showing to the world their mental ability to perceive hazardous situations & physical ability to drive the vehicle are actually sub-standard. Bottom line is inate objects don't cause accidents, it is the humans behind the wheel.
 
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pip6

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With regard to learners being taught to pass their test only, yes a few stupidly short sighted instructors do this to get business in, as kids love to show off too their mates as to how few lessons they took to pass & parents want to pay for the absolute minimum number of lessons. Many work in towns, where it is ijmpossible to do an equine overtake. They could do their pass-plus post test, but again don't want to pay out for any more hours. This is about what I expect from the kids, they are immature teenagers (please raise the age to drive to at least 18, it's amazing what a difference even a year can make). The parents just forever push about how quickly their kids will be doing their test (as they drive so well with them, they are sure they are ready - really? When did you last do a driving test? 20 years ago? Sort of changed a huge amount in that time. Do you actually know the standards they need to meet to pass?). You'd think that given this is supposedly the most precious thing in their lives, their child, their flesh & blood, that they have spent 17 years raising, they'd want them to be ready to drive safely, not ready to pass a test. Please I urge you with your kids learning to drive, get them ready to stay alive on the roads, not die on them.

And I never taught test routes. I teach people to drive, when they can do so safely they will pass their test without cramming. If you don't like it, I'm not the instructor for you.
 

Goldenstar

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Before the bend maybe, AFTER the bend - suicidal and inconsiderate.

This is a busy B road. Things are coming around behind you at 50-60mph, quite legitimately - and that's the good drivers. The bad ones are doing 70, and barely holding onto the corner, which isn't obvious until they're on it.

On the straight on a B road it depends IMO entirely on how wide the road is if it's not wide enough for a car to overtake a single horse safely when a car is coming the other way I take the desision to ride two abrest .
Oncoming cars on blind bends are far more scary than the one on the same side of the road as you .
That's where your ears and judgement comes in we ride a difficult double of blind bends near us we will ride up the bank and stop if we can hear an oncoming car coming fast these bends have no verges most of the way round I know the road very well I know exactly what you can see and hear from where and where you can get out of the way how to deal with such places when you don't know the road is difficult .
I suppose though typically we learn the roads we ride on and how to cope the blind bends I describe was the scene of one of my near misses when we heard a vehicle approaching very fast in the wet too fast every instinct said that as it went into the bends we heard no braking at that point both my groom and I instinctively road the horse strongly into the hedge and bank luckily they where older horses who had hunted they did not hick a crew cab came sideways round the corner it was all very quick and frightening if there had been a car there would have been an accident he hit the bank just past us bounced about and continued .
You can't have a one size fits all approach to that it depends on so many things the horses you have out what's just happened to them what you can see from where and hearing is a big thing to train yourself to use sometimes oncoming traffic if more of a danger than traffic from behind you need to be risk assessing
And making judgements all the time ,the road is not the place to ride for a relaxing mental time you need to be on the ball all the time.
 
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