Hind end issues- thoughts appreciated!

[timbobs]

Ed has been having some problems since October time and has been injected for Kissing Spined and arthritis in both hocks.

The vet came out on Friday and declared him sound (although he didn’t leave a leg at all when the vet was here), but agrees his is still anxious and tense. We decided to long line and lunge for a couple of weeks to either settle him or bring something out.

When I first took him for a lameness workup he had been leaving a hind leg behind (first clip in the video) occasionally, so this has been happening since early October.

Today, he did this 10-15 times in the 20min session to varying degrees. This happened on both reins and with/without the Pessoa.

Will be sending vids to the vet tomorrow, but was wondering if anyone had experienced the same problem?

At the moment it feels like we sort one problem and another five come up!

https://imgur.com/a/pRPBmuD

 

[be positive]

I am unsure what could be going on but do not see what benefit he is getting from lunging in this way, he is going best in the clip wearing the quarter sheet although does take one odd step but is not really working in a constructive way in the pessoa and running about with his head up when he does the worst misstep so it could be lack of balance poor coordination as much as anything else.
I would want to see him working far more consistently and correctly at this stage of his rehab and agree that tension/ discomfort could be causing him to do it, until he is going properly, or gets worse in his movement, it will be hard to really assess further.

He looks very tight in the pessoa and I would question if it is appropriate to be using it if he always tucks in so deep and struggles to stretch forward.

 

[timbobs]

I am unsure what could be going on but do not see what benefit he is getting from lunging in this way, he is going best in the clip wearing the quarter sheet although does take one odd step but is not really working in a constructive way in the pessoa and running about with his head up when he does the worst misstep so it could be lack of balance poor coordination as much as anything else.
I would want to see him working far more consistently and correctly at this stage of his rehab and agree that tension/ discomfort could be causing him to do it, until he is going properly, or gets worse in his movement, it will be hard to really assess further.

He looks very tight in the pessoa and I would question if it is appropriate to be using it if he always tucks in so deep and struggles to stretch forward.

Hi bepositive,

Thanks for your reply. I agree he looks very tight in the Pessoa- he didn’t move like this previously and was lovely and relaxed and forward when lunged in it, rather than bunching up. He was also much more relaxed and flowing when lunged loosely whereas now he seem very tense and running.

He seems unhappy at the moment, whether lunged loosely or in the Pessoa and he is unbalanced definitely. I was adviced by the vet to mix Pessoa-ing and long-lining so today was his first lunge session and I’m not happy with how he went st all.

Interestingly, the quarter sheet clip was before the KS and arthritis treatment.

It could be the fact he’s unbalanced causing it, but he’s been doing it ridden, and on the lunge, for a few months. When it started he was in full work and getting good marks at prelim and novice, so wasn’t particularly unbalanced.

The plan from the vets at the moment is to do a couple of weeks lunging/long lining before he comes back again, but I’m just not sure what to do with him!

 

[nikicb]

I haven't responded to your threads before, but have followed them. My gelding did this quite a lot. At first we put it down to being a typical late developing ISH - he was around 6 when things started looking not quite right - especially behind. We started to have real problems in downwards transitions. When I first got him he was certainly not a hot horse, and most of my downwards transitions could easily be achieved by no longer asking him to go forward. All of a sudden I had trouble going from trot to walk and walk to halt - he didn't run off with me, he just couldn't get his back end under him to transition down. He spent a week at the vets and had a whole host of work ups and diagnostics - bone scan, x-rays, nerve blocks etc. They finally found evidence of the very smallest tear in his DDFT in one of his hind legs, and some bruising/soreness in his two front feet which was put down to being compensatory - he had MRIs done on 3 feet (one hind, two front) to deduce this. After 6 months off and 6 months of painstaking rehab, he was brought back into work. We kept him out of the school and he did tonnes of straight line hacking, but literally couldn't cope. He put the whole of his back and back end out. So back to the vets for another week after having treatment to deal with the compensatory hind end/back issues. More bone scans, MRIs etc. - my insurance company were absolutely fab and in the end paid around £9k for both sets of investigations. The vets finally narrowed the issue down to his front feet - the most likely cause of issue is that he doesn't have enough cartilage to sustain regular work. I retired him at 8. He's unshod and happy being a horse - totally field sound but I'll probably never bring him back into work again. I'm not saying that Ed has the same problem, but what looked glaringly like a back end problem for Cam in fact turned out to be compensatory issues. So keep an open mind, which I am sure you are. Cam never tried to dump me or did anything that made us think he was completely crocked, but he was and all because he was trying to keep the weight of his fronts. Good luck. xx

 

[timbobs]

I haven't responded to your threads before, but have followed them. My gelding did this quite a lot. At first we put it down to being a typical late developing ISH - he was around 6 when things started looking not quite right - especially behind. We started to have real problems in downwards transitions. When I first got him he was certainly not a hot horse, and most of my downwards transitions could easily be achieved by no longer asking him to go forward. All of a sudden I had trouble going from trot to walk and walk to halt - he didn't run off with me, he just couldn't get his back end under him to transition down. He spent a week at the vets and had a whole host of work ups and diagnostics - bone scan, x-rays, nerve blocks etc. They finally found evidence of the very smallest tear in his DDFT in one of his hind legs, and some bruising/soreness in his two front feet which was put down to being compensatory - he had MRIs done on 3 feet (one hind, two front) to deduce this. After 6 months off and 6 months of painstaking rehab, he was brought back into work. We kept him out of the school and he did tonnes of straight line hacking, but literally couldn't cope. He put the whole of his back and back end out. So back to the vets for another week after having treatment to deal with the compensatory hind end/back issues. More bone scans, MRIs etc. - my insurance company were absolutely fab and in the end paid around £9k for both sets of investigations. The vets finally narrowed the issue down to his front feet - the most likely cause of issue is that he doesn't have enough cartilage to sustain regular work. I retired him at 8. He's unshod and happy being a horse - totally field sound but I'll probably never bring him back into work again. I'm not saying that Ed has the same problem, but what looked glaringly like a back end problem for Cam in fact turned out to be compensatory issues. So keep an open mind, which I am sure you are. Cam never tried to dump me or did anything that made us think he was completely crocked, but he was and all because he was trying to keep the weight of his fronts. Good luck. xx

Sorry to hear about all your issues with Cam.

It’s good to hear another people’s experiences so I can try and understand what could be going on with Ed.

I did want to get a bone scan done, but insurance wouldn’t say if they’d pay for it and I don’t have the money to cover it if they won’t.

Now we’ve identified the KS, we may have grounds to do the bone scan which may show up where else is bothering him.

In my gut, I feel like there is definitely something else going on aside from what we’ve already found.

 

[paddi22]

I had one that would drag a leg, he also had kissing spine. vet diagnosed sciatica as well. It would come and go randomly.

 

[be positive]

What does the physio think? at this stage I would want their input, possibly more than a vet.
I think I would prefer to see him on two reins, encouraging him to work over his back into a long frame with his nose going forward, moving around the school more until he is relaxed and some closer work looking at straightness in walk with no trot until he is settled.
It seems to me to be contradictory to have him moving the way he was today unless the aim is to make him worse, not saying that is what you are trying to do but having lived with the issues that have now been sorted for some time he still has a lot to forget and a lot to learn, you almost need to treat him as a young horse that knows nothing, start from scratch and don't move on until each stage is established correctly.

 

[TheMule]

I wouldn't be happy with that and would want it investigating, sorry. Have you had his hind suspensories scanned?

 

[timbobs]

What does the physio think? at this stage I would want their input, possibly more than a vet.
I think I would prefer to see him on two reins, encouraging him to work over his back into a long frame with his nose going forward, moving around the school more until he is relaxed and some closer work looking at straightness in walk with no trot until he is settled.
It seems to me to be contradictory to have him moving the way he was today unless the aim is to make him worse, not saying that is what you are trying to do but having lived with the issues that have now been sorted for some time he still has a lot to forget and a lot to learn, you almost need to treat him as a young horse that knows nothing, start from scratch and don't move on until each stage is established correctly.

The physio is due back in just over a week so will see what she says then.

Today was his first time being lunged since the treatment and I’m not in a hurry to do it again!

Also, just for videoing he was on a 20m circle, but when I wasn’t videoing we were moving large around the school as I’m not keen on going round and round in circles.

We’re meant to be on a plan of alternating lunging and long reining for a couple of weeks, but I think i’ll stick with the long reining as he seemed much more comfortable and stretched forward and down.

I wouldn't be happy with that and would want it investigating, sorry. Have you had his hind suspensories scanned?

Don’t apologise- I also think he’s not right which is why I’m asking

He hasn’t had them scanned, no. He went in for a workup at the end of November and blocked sound at the hocks. He then improved for about 10 days before showing discomfort in his back. We then found 4 KS which were injected last week and now he’s looking more uncomfortable than before!

 

[ycbm]

My horse started doing this at ten, a few weeks before it became obvious he was ataxic and had been born with malformed neck vertebrae.

 

[timbobs]

My horse started doing this at ten, a few weeks before it became obvious he was ataxic and had been born with malformed neck vertebrae.

Ed had neck x-rays when he had the back ones done as his neck was also very tight so hopefully we can rule out neck issues.

 

[ycbm]

Ed had neck x-rays when he had the back ones done as his neck was also very tight so hopefully we can rule out neck issues.

That's good, except you've got a real puzzle on your hands. Sorry I can't help.

 

[timbobs]

That's good, except you've got a real puzzle on your hands. Sorry I can't help.

It is a puzzle - so frustrating! Thanks for the suggestion though, appreciate all ideas!

 

[scats]

The comment you make about him looking more uncomfortable now he has been treated for the KS is not uncommon when there is another issue. Often a horse has been holding itself a certain way to compensate for something else. You relieve that something else, or help it in some way, and they can suddenly appear much worse somewhere else.

We had this with Polly. No-one could figure out what was wrong with her, she flexioned fine, she wasn’t lame, but there was something not right and she was very tight across her back and SI. Angela Holland came and worked her magic and freed up the horses back and what we then had was a horse much looser and more supple in its back, but clearly now showing lameness behind.
We were then able to send it to the hospital like this, the vet dealing with her said it was now presenting like a totally different case. I pushed for a scan of the suspensories and bingo.

I feel you are clearly dealing with two different issues here. The kissing spines, which has obviously been found, but definitely something else. I’d go for a suspensory scan first off, they aren’t that expensive.

 

[timbobs]

The comment you make about him looking more uncomfortable now he has been treated for the KS is not uncommon when there is another issue. Often a horse has been holding itself a certain way to compensate for something else. You relieve that something else, or help it in some way, and they can suddenly appear much worse somewhere else.

We had this with Polly. No-one could figure out what was wrong with her, she flexioned fine, she wasn’t lame, but there was something not right and she was very tight across her back and SI. Angela Holland came and worked her magic and freed up the horses back and what we then had was a horse much looser and more supple in its back, but clearly now showing lameness behind.
We were then able to send it to the hospital like this, the vet dealing with her said it was now presenting like a totally different case. I pushed for a scan of the suspensories and bingo.

I feel you are clearly dealing with two different issues here. The kissing spines, which has obviously been found, but definitely something else. I’d go for a suspensory scan first off, they aren’t that expensive.

Thanks for your reply- it's my feeling as well that we are dealing with a few different issues, we just need to work out what! Having the hocks injected showed up the back, now the back is getting sorted we're seeing something else.

He blocked sound behind to the hocks (although this was before the KS diagnosis/treatment) - would he have done this if there was an issue with suspensories? I'll add it to the list to speak to the vet about

 

[timbobs]

What does the physio think? at this stage I would want their input, possibly more than a vet.
I think I would prefer to see him on two reins, encouraging him to work over his back into a long frame with his nose going forward, moving around the school more until he is relaxed and some closer work looking at straightness in walk with no trot until he is settled.
It seems to me to be contradictory to have him moving the way he was today unless the aim is to make him worse, not saying that is what you are trying to do but having lived with the issues that have now been sorted for some time he still has a lot to forget and a lot to learn, you almost need to treat him as a young horse that knows nothing, start from scratch and don't move on until each stage is established correctly.

Just wanted to follow up with some vids/pics of him on the lunge previous before all his issues started.

https://imgur.com/Jo8a5pt

This vid is from May last year and the picture from March and while you can see he’s clearly still developing, he’s much happier to work on the lunge with and without lunging aids.

https://imgur.com/UPlSmJu

 

[tda]

I know a pic is just a moment in time, but the last pic above looks to be landing toe first with the inside hind. Can you slow the video frame by frame?

 

[timbobs]

I know a pic is just a moment in time, but the last pic above looks to be landing toe first with the inside hind. Can you slow the video frame by frame?

Unfortunately the final picture wasn’t from a video- just a picture. I could potentially slow other videos down, but not sure how!

 

[whiteflower]

He blocked sound behind to the hocks (although this was before the KS diagnosis/treatment) - would he have done this if there was an issue with suspensories? I'll add it to the list to speak to the vet about

Just be aware that blocking the hocks isn't an exact science. The anasetic can move into the surrounding tissues when you are block the hock joints. This happened with my horse. He blocked sound to hock joint so they decided it was spavin. X-rays showed very mild change but nothing you wouldn't expect in a horse of that age but they were adament that was it. After months of mucking about with ethanol injections that didn't work I insisted they scan the suspensory and bingo....PSD...they then blocked only the suspensory and he went sound. So I answer to your question I wouldn't rule out high suspensory if the horse is blocking to the hock joints.

 

[timbobs]

Just be aware that blocking the hocks isn't an exact science. The anasetic can move into the surrounding tissues when you are block the hock joints. This happened with my horse. He blocked sound to hock joint so they decided it was spavin. X-rays showed very mild change but nothing you wouldn't expect in a horse of that age but they were adament that was it. After months of mucking about with ethanol injections that didn't work I insisted they scan the suspensory and bingo....PSD...they then blocked only the suspensory and he went sound. So I answer to your question I wouldn't rule out high suspensory if the horse is blocking to the hock joints.

Thanks whiteflower, that’s interesting to hear. Ed’s xrays showed only mild arthritis in both hocks, so I wouldn’t expect this level of issue from it so I will definitely ask for more investigations.

 

[Auslander]

Agreeing with Whiteflower. When Alf was being investigated, the vet blocked the hocks and suspensories on different days, as the hock block can affect nearby structures, giving an unreliable result

 

[timbobs]

Agreeing with Whiteflower. When Alf was being investigated, the vet blocked the hocks and suspensories on different days, as the hock block can affect nearby structures, giving an unreliable result

Thanks Auslander - will chat to the vet about it

 

[Pinkvboots]

Agreeing with Whiteflower. When Alf was being investigated, the vet blocked the hocks and suspensories on different days, as the hock block can affect nearby structures, giving an unreliable result

They did the same with one of mine as they got to the hock and he was still lame, so they did the next block the following day and found he had a hole in his suspensory.

 

[timbobs]

I’ve spoken to the vet this morning and he’s booked in for his suspensories to be scanned on Thursday.

If nothing conclusive, we’ll book in for a bone scan.

Hopefully we can get to the bottom of what’s bothering him as he’s really not happy at the moment.

 

[timbobs]

Ed's latest contribution to the "vet holiday to Barbados" is a lovely, fat and hot leg.

Came up on Tuesday, but the swelling is just on the outside of the leg, not the inside. No cut or anything to see apart from the swelling. It hasn't gone down with cold hosing so will get the vet to take a look later seeing as he's already here! 🤦‍♀️

Fat fore vs. normal fore

 

[Pinkvboots]

Oh dear that is a puffy leg hope it's nothing serious, a friend's horse had similar a few weeks back turned out it was infected so went down with antibiotics.

 

[timbobs]

I know a pic is just a moment in time, but the last pic above looks to be landing toe first with the inside hind. Can you slow the video frame by frame?

Hi TDA,

Interestingly, I managed to take a slow-mo video today (no idea how I managed it!) and you can clearly see the right hind landing toe first which looks to be the cause of him losing his right hind.

The vet was due Thursday, but they had to cancel. They are out tomorrow so will show them the video. He does seem much happier in himself which is an improvement, but there is definitely something going on there!

 

[whiteflower]

Having seen that video in slow Mo I'd put my money on high suspensories, PSD, my horse with PSD ended up with under run heels and negative pedal bone angle in the hinds causing them to become bull nosed where he was landing on his toes. It's sounds like you have a similar situation to me too where as I say above, it blocked to the hocks, they thought spavin but the main issue was actually PSD. Definately worth blocking suspensories only imo. Fingers crossed you get an answer soon

 

[timbobs]

Having seen that video in slow Mo I'd put my money on high suspensories, PSD, my horse with PSD ended up with under run heels and negative pedal bone angle in the hinds causing them to become bull nosed where he was landing on his toes. It's sounds like you have a similar situation to me too where as I say above, it blocked to the hocks, they thought spavin but the main issue was actually PSD. Definately worth blocking suspensories only imo. Fingers crossed you get an answer soon

The vet is out tomorrow morning to look at the suspensories so will see what we find!

 

[tda]

Great news, hope it points to something treatable x