Hind gut acidosis - supplement help please

Tiddlypom said:
How about getting half a dozen bales and storing them in the wagon/trailer for now. If you find that he really is better on hay, then surely you could rig up a cheap small covered area to store it?
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I understand what you are saying, but I've had very bad experiences of getting hold of decent hay in the past in years of bad weather, and I will not buy anything that I have not seen grown, since a local farmer cut, baled and sold ragwort contaminated hay. I've been buying a years small bale haylage at a time for more than a decade, and the idea of having to have small amounts of hay delivered and cover it with tarpaulin is a bit of a nightmare.

I know these are excuses that can be overcome if I have to, but at the moment his symptoms just aren't severe enough to make me do it. If I can't stabilise him by the time this harvest runs out next September, he will go onto hay.
 
cm2581 said:
Have you considered feeding any clays such as montmorillonite? (sp?!) I've just seen some impressive results from an emergency diarrhea dose of 97g twice a day. Daily use would be much less that this though or you would probably end up with an impaction! The stuff I got from my vet was called Bio-Sponge but at £60 (no that isn't a typo!!) a day I'm looking into an alternative!!!!
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Thanks for this but he never gets the squits so I don't think it would h be the right stuff for him.
 
nikkimariet said:
CS gets 135g approx a day, split over 3 feeds.

We basically dropped it down as far as we could with him remaining comfortable. Any lower than that and he gets grumpy and sod-like lol.

We stuck with the SLH.



I wasn't picking on your spelling - just didn't know if we were talking about same thing :) (my spelling is horrendous!)
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CS was a tough case, I know. If my home made equishure doesn't work it will be my first port of call for full price stuff.
 
paddy555 said:
this is the one that I use and by far the most effective one. It is £16 incl del for 5kg. More expensive but then you get what you pay for and for this sort of problem quality counts. You can feed any quantity of a cheaper one but if it is not as effective then it is pretty inconclusive and you are simply left without an answer.

I am afraid, and I have struggled down the hind gut route for some time now, money talks. The problem can be resolved but it costs in suitable feed, forage and supplements. I am sorry your haylege may possibly be acidic.I think this may partially be the cause of your problems.

I have found that dealing with hind gut problems is the same as successful barefoot. You can trim the horse as many times as you want, put whatever else on it's feet, etc etc etc but until you obey the basic rules of diet, reduce the grazing, get a muzzle, feed minerals or whatever you simply have a horse that "doesn't do barefoot".
There are so many posts on here of people wanting to go barefoot, they don't manage it but are unwilling to change the diet or make the necesssary changes. Hind gut problems to me are the same, hay may be difficult to manage but it may be a large part of the solution.
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This horse is rock crunching barefoot, so his gut is a minor issue, which just presents some ridden behaviours that I can do without :)

100% food grade sodium bicarbonate is 100% food grade sodium bicarbonate. Provided you buy from a reputable supplier, paying more than you need to is pointless.
 
paddy555 said:
this is the one that I use and by far the most effective one. It is £16 incl del for 5kg. More expensive but then you get what you pay for and for this sort of problem quality counts. You can feed any quantity of a cheaper one but if it is not as effective then it is pretty inconclusive and you are simply left without an answer.

I am afraid, and I have struggled down the hind gut route for some time now, money talks. The problem can be resolved but it costs in suitable feed, forage and supplements. I am sorry your haylege may possibly be acidic.I think this may partially be the cause of your problems.

I have found that dealing with hind gut problems is the same as successful barefoot. You can trim the horse as many times as you want, put whatever else on it's feet, etc etc etc but until you obey the basic rules of diet, reduce the grazing, get a muzzle, feed minerals or whatever you simply have a horse that "doesn't do barefoot".
There are so many posts on here of people wanting to go barefoot, they don't manage it but are unwilling to change the diet or make the necesssary changes. Hind gut problems to me are the same, hay may be difficult to manage but it may be a large part of the solution.
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Exactly this.
Moved yard, Fed wet haylage got leg swelling, footiness, dislike of grooming over belly and behind saddle,( but at the time I was confused as horse also showing a secondary lameness) anyway long storey short, fed bicarb, yea sacc, symptoms eased especially footiness within 24 hours then switched back to soaked hay and carried on with bicarb for a couple of weeks, horse now off bicarb on dry hay or hay and haylage if the bales are off the more dry type and is fine.

I will be using bicarb for spring grass without a doubt.
 
Archie73 said:
Exactly this.
Moved yard, Fed wet haylage got leg swelling, footiness, dislike of grooming over belly and behind saddle,( but at the time I was confused as horse also showing a secondary lameness) anyway long storey short, fed bicarb, yea sacc, symptoms eased especially footiness within 24 hours then switched back to soaked hay and carried on with bicarb for a couple of weeks, horse now off bicarb on dry hay or hay and haylage if the bales are off the more dry type and is fine.

I will be using bicarb for spring grass without a doubt.
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I'm finding myself quite reassured by how mild my boy's symptoms are compared to other people's. I hope bicarbonate works for you in spring.
 
cptrayes said:
This horse is rock crunching barefoot, so his gut is a minor issue, which just presents some ridden behaviours that I can do without :)

100% food grade sodium bicarbonate is 100% food grade sodium bicarbonate. Provided you buy from a reputable supplier, paying more than you need to is pointless.
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rock crunching doesn't come into it. The only difference resolving ulcers has made to one horse's feet is in how he stands and therefore how they wear M/L. It has made no difference to going over stones. In the other it has made no difference at all. He has had hind gut problems for a very long time but could go over anything. This was to some extent how I missed them as I assumed a gut problem horse would be a footy one.

I agree paying more is pointless. I just totally wasted the money buying the food grade one and the horse deteriorated whilst I got him back onto the proper one.

I took a few minutes to read some of the commments on your blog, I presume the horse is Ace. I recognised references to downhill, doesn't like hacking, nappy, anxious and spooky. Those were ridden behaviours I was certainly glad to be rid of in ours.
 
paddy555 said:
rock crunching doesn't come into it. The only difference resolving ulcers has made to one horse's feet is in how he stands and therefore how they wear M/L. It has made no difference to going over stones. In the other it has made no difference at all. He has had hind gut problems for a very long time but could go over anything. This was to some extent how I missed them as I assumed a gut problem horse would be a footy one.

I agree paying more is pointless. I just totally wasted the money buying the food grade one and the horse deteriorated whilst I got him back onto the proper one.

I took a few minutes to read some of the commments on your blog, I presume the horse is Ace. I recognised references to downhill, doesn't like hacking, nappy, anxious and spooky. Those were ridden behaviours I was certainly glad to be rid of in ours.
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Yes, those are behaviours that reduce markedly on Omeprazole. I'm very interested in your reference to downhill problems, as that was a new one this autumn and I was concerned about hocks. There has been some difficulty separating HGA symptoms from the fear of pain he was left with after his kissing spines operation, but that's now resolved and its clear that what he has now is a problem with his gut.

It isn't easy to judge anything by his feet because the back operation has made the most astonishing changes to his whole movement, with a straightening of the front legs and a massive overtrack from the back. It's been something of a miracle:)

Why can these creatures never be easy?!?!
 
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cptrayes said:
I'm very interested in your reference to downhill problems, as that was a new one this autumn and I was concerned about hocks.
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Not liking going downhill can also be a neck alignment problem. my horse that was eventually manipulated under anaesthetic hated going downhill and would also not jump down banks - once the neck was fixed this was never a problem again.
 
Tnavas said:
Not liking going downhill can also be a neck alignment problem. my horse that was eventually manipulated under anaesthetic hated going downhill and would also not jump down banks - once the neck was fixed this was never a problem again.
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Another one for my data bank, thanks :)
 
Update on the fake equishure.

It's easy to make. It's cheap.

And it's a pain in the proverbial to mix into the food!!!!

I'm going to try oil and bicarb and if that doesn't work, stump up the cash for egusin.
 
cptrayes said:
Update on the fake equishure.

It's easy to make. It's cheap.

And it's a pain in the proverbial to mix into the food!!!!

I'm going to try oil and bicarb and if that doesn't work, stump up the cash for egusin.
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Maybe adding bran to make the mix will make it crumbly rather than gooey - you could use either wheat bran or oat bran
 
cptrayes said:
Yes, those are behaviours that reduce markedly on Omeprazole. I'm very interested in your reference to downhill problems, as that was a new one this autumn and I was concerned about hocks. There has been some difficulty separating HGA symptoms from the fear of pain he was left with after his kissing spines operation, but that's now resolved and its clear that what he has now is a problem with his gut.

It isn't easy to judge anything by his feet because the back operation has made the most astonishing changes to his whole movement, with a straightening of the front legs and a massive overtrack from the back. It's been something of a miracle:)

Why can these creatures never be easy?!?!
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sorry I missed your post.

downhill for mine was to do with the hind gut problem. Once the problem was under control that resolved.
Why I don' know. You said something to the effect yours didn't like going off down the hill but was much happier going the other way. Down hill produced the worst behaviour and that was even produced in hand with a set on reins on and me just walking by his side. I don't know if it is gravity and the hind gut pushing forwards causing discomfort. The spooking, and boy we certainly had that, seems directly proportional to hind gut ulcer/acidocis pain. (maybe also to stomach ulcer pain) remove the pain and the difficult part of the spooking goes

The KWPN one I knew with this problem didn't like hacking and was taken out with a baby sitter to try and make him happier about it.

For horses that don't appear to like hacking with this I think it is to do with fear. I am not sure what the fear is actually of but it appears more that they like to be carried along every step with a very strong confident rider totally in charge. I would think in the enclosed environment of a school they would be happier, the contained boundaries making them safer. Going out seems to be a lack of comfort. I try to make sure mine has something happening every couple of steps, a stroke, a couple of words, half halt, jiggle of the rein, anything so he knows that he is not alone.

I had a very long time of trying to sort this out with one. If I was leading him and a tractor came close (and he lives with our tractor) he would start to panic (when he had the worst HGA). I would lead him up onto a bank and put myself between him and the tractor. He had plenty of room to run away and could have run off over the common. He chose to jump towards me (and the tractor) and jump on top of me as if he was a dog trying to jump into my arms for comfort.

When he was really bad I led him out in hand. If I ignored the spooking he really couldn't cope, he was so unfocused. It I became a reallly strong leader and took him in hand he was much happier.

It might be just mine but pain and spookiness etc etc from HGA type problems doesn't appear to leave a fear of pain as some injuries do. With mine it was as if a switch had been turned. Ride out with HGA they didn't want to go, were spooking, not very safe etc. Remove the pain and a normal horse.

I wonder if warmbloods are prone to this? If they are shifted around a lot when young, possibly sressed by this and their training giving rise to the potential for gut problems but people assume they are just big "thick" horses so it doesn't matter as much as say a TB. (that is not to say that anyone's warmblood is thick but could they just be horses that put up with a lot and internalise their problems)
 
paddy555 said:
For horses that don't appear to like hacking with this I think it is to do with fear. I am not sure what the fear is actually of but it appears more that they like to be carried along every step with a very strong confident rider totally in charge. I would think in the enclosed environment of a school they would be happier, the contained boundaries making them safer. Going out seems to be a lack of comfort. I try to make sure mine has something happening every couple of steps, a stroke, a couple of words, half halt, jiggle of the rein, anything so he knows that he is not alone.

.............

I wonder if warmbloods are prone to this? If they are shifted around a lot when young, possibly sressed by this and their training giving rise to the potential for gut problems but people assume they are just big "thick" horses so it doesn't matter as much as say a TB. (that is not to say that anyone's warmblood is thick but could they just be horses that put up with a lot and internalise their problems)
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Interestingly, the two warmbloods I have had who hated hacking get/got worse the more you push/ed them. (One is dead, sorry about the messy grammar). I have a long history paying peanuts for bad nappy horses and sorting them out with strong leadership. This pair would/will simply not have it, and the more you push the more they escalate/d. I have never had the problem with any other breeding. It's definitely rooted in fear though. I can feel and hear the heart racing away.

The boy this thread is about has a separate spooking problem which I know is gut related and back pain related. If I can remove both problems, the spooking at home disappears. Whether we can get rid of it in a competition situation is still to be discovered.
 
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Have you tried Protexin?

http://www.protexin.com/products/gut-balancer/5

This is a good gut balancer, including hind gut. If you go on facebook and like the page, Anna will answer any questions you have.

I'm a little confused with the speedibeet, is it not good for horses with ulcers or acidic stomach? ive never heard that before just sugarbeet??? Very interested in this.

My horse seems uncomfortable on calm and condition as there is so much bulk once you soak it, does anyone else have this problem, he eats then cribs constantly and sometimes stretches his jaw. Im currently moving him onto top spec comprehensive balancer and cool conditioning cubes with alfa a oil, if any one has any views on this it will be helpful?
:)
 
JoClark said:
Have you tried Protexin?

[
I'm a little confused with the speedibeet, is it not good for horses with ulcers or acidic stomach? ive never heard that before just sugarbeet??? Very interested in this.

My horse seems uncomfortable on calm and condition as there is so much bulk once you soak it, does anyone else have this problem, he eats then cribs constantly and sometimes stretches his jaw. Im currently moving him onto top spec comprehensive balancer and cool conditioning cubes with alfa a oil, if any one has any views on this it will be helpful?
:)
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I found that my 2 gut problem horses didn't do well on sugar beet. (this is either molassed or unmolassed) it seems to "hinder" their digestion and they were less happy. I changed to soaked alfalfa pellets and copra. This seemed to "help" digestion. Some others seem to have reached the same conclusion. I can only think that it is because it is not as easily digestible for horses with these problems.

No doubt many will be fine on it and some will improve without it. Just a case of removing it to see.

Top spec balancer is a definite no no for me. It made my barefoot horse footsore. That lasted for a long time as I eliminated everything else in his diet but thought the TS couldn't be the cause. He was a lot sounder after I chucked it away.
I have had others on TS balancer but never seen particuarly good results especially for the price.

The best hard feed for mine, after a lot of trial and error, is alfalfa pellets/copra and micronised linseed. I think I put some comments on them earlier in this thread.
 
paddy555 said:
I found that my 2 gut problem horses didn't do well on sugar beet. (this is either molassed or unmolassed) it seems to "hinder" their digestion and they were less happy. I changed to soaked alfalfa pellets and copra. This seemed to "help" digestion. Some others seem to have reached the same conclusion. I can only think that it is because it is not as easily digestible for horses with these problems.

No doubt many will be fine on it and some will improve without it. Just a case of removing it to see.

Top spec balancer is a definite no no for me. It made my barefoot horse footsore. That lasted for a long time as I eliminated everything else in his diet but thought the TS couldn't be the cause. He was a lot sounder after I chucked it away.
I have had others on TS balancer but never seen particuarly good results especially for the price.

The best hard feed for mine, after a lot of trial and error, is alfalfa pellets/copra and micronised linseed. I think I put some comments on them earlier in this thread.
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There is a fair amount of anecdotal evidence against Top Spec with barefoot horses.

With sugar beet, I'm guessing that horses are not really designed to digest it that well. Normally, anything that they ate would grow above ground. They would only have dug up roots in the absence of anything else to eat. I've stopped feeding it after reading this thread, but also because I soak the alfalfa so I don't need soaked sugar beet to put supplements in.

Things are going well so far, I've got him up to 20g sodium bicarb and 50ml oil in each feed.
 
paddy555 said:
is it reaching the hind gut?
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How do I know :D

Equishure is sodium bicarbonate buffered in oil. I'm giving him sodium bicarbonate buffered in oil. If equishure does, why would this not?

He isn't on a full dose yet, and I don't expect it to correct an imbalance in hind gut flora overnight. Time will tell.
 
How about freezing the hydrogenated fat and bicarb mixture and then grating through a fine grater with a food processor. Then you can just refreeze the grated mixture. Might work ..... might not.
 
Prince33Sp4rkle said:
Genuinely interested to hear how this goes, keep updating please :)
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No problem PS, I'M going to be following you into egusin if it doesn't work.

At the moment, I can say that all his ' bad' behaviour - kicking out a hind leg when I put my leg on - sharp spooking and looking for excuses to do it, were all but gone today in spite of icy cold wind this morning (which previously would set off a fear of back pain as well, and is therefore his most testing weather. ) He also looks back at his side when on the lunge to the right. That's disappeared. And a look that he gets on his face before his first poo on the lunge/ridden, as if he is uncomfortable, has disappeared today too.

BUT I am still weaning him off Omeprazole slowly, so as not to get acid bounceback, and that would normally also have produced this improvement, so at the moment the picture is confused.

But what I can say is that he has always had droppings on the small side, and yet now I am seeing consistently plump balls of exactly the right moisture content. That is definitely new.

If you can promise me if I go onto egusin I'll get a lovely PSG like your boy who wasn't even bred to do it, I'll buy it now :)
 
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This is all really interesting. I also just recently read the thread on Phoenix Horse. The symptoms are very similar to that of my boy - he was scoped for ulcers over a year ago, had only grade 1-2 and I never felt that gg was the whole answer for him. We have had several relapses and I've never quite found the solution yet. I have tried a lot of things! Succeed I tried for 3 months and I didn't feel worked. I did also try Egusin, with that it is difficult to say for sure because he was on box rest with a fracture at the time, however he was still girthy etc. so I would say it wasn't the answer either (I tried it for 2 big tubs). However, he is a poor doer but got fat on it - but again, he was on box rest so it could have been that. I did try Gastro Plus too and this seemed the most effective. The second batch of GP ran out a few weeks ago and he is having a bit of a relapse again, he is girthy, very touchy particularly on right side (I couldn't clip around stifles, especially on right, even sedated), bucking and broncing when ridden and I never know how much I can put my leg on and how he will react. Not long after the GP finished I also ran out of Yeasacc, so I'm not sure which is the ultimate culprit. I have yeasacc on order so he is going back on that. I have also ordered some bicarb from hyperdrug to try. I already feed corn oil so I think I'm going to mix the bicarb into the oil and add that and see how we go. If this gives a small amount of improvement or none at all I will try the Equishure, at least you can get a 10 day supply for £36 to try. Oh, and he has been on both Nettex Gut balancer (courtesy of free trial) and Protexin gut balancer for a while and these aren't helping.
 
Isn't it interesting how many horses seem to have these problems. Are we all doing something wrong? Or did we just used to belt them one and carry on??

All signs of gut discomfort have gone in my horse and he is easily eating 30g of bicarb in each feed, which I intend to increase to 50g as soon as I can. I can now kick him if I need to, with no reaction other than the one I want.
 
My horses reactions were kicking out to outing your leg on specifically right side. Very moody bad tempered. Backing up in the stable even continued trying to go backwards when he'd hit the wall. Stinking poos. Two rounds of gas colic. He felt unridable to the point where he napped (totally out of character) so badly out hacking and stressed himself out that after returning home I turned him out in the field, he laid down and was colicking for the second time. He kept having mild colic episodes every day for the next two weeks. Despite trying Coligone power, then Feedmark ulcer calm didn't work. Coligone liquid helped to bring him out of the mild colic so I kept on at the vet and had to really push for scoping and did lots of research as I felt all the signs indicated ulcers. Sure enough he did when scoped. Went on GG for a month not much better and then tryed Sucralflate it got mildly better but not 100%.
My vet then recommended RiteTrac as we discussed options (he wanted a re scope, I said no) we discussed hind gut acidosis as a possible cause and without feeling like a broken record about using it for the millionth time using RiteTrac was a miracle that in 48 hours of being on it I was riding him again after not being able to for months... And he felt amazing. £2k insurance for ulcers whereas £90 tub of Ritetrac sorted it so quickly. I do use Bicarb in the summer mainly for his feet sometimes But I tend to put it in one of his water buckets so he has a free choice to self medicate if he needs it or not.
 
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