Hind gut acidosis - supplement help please

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

This is all really interesting. I also just recently read the thread on Phoenix Horse. The symptoms are very similar to that of my boy - he was scoped for ulcers over a year ago, had only grade 1-2 and I never felt that gg was the whole answer for him. We have had several relapses and I've never quite found the solution yet. I have tried a lot of things! Succeed I tried for 3 months and I didn't feel worked. I did also try Egusin, with that it is difficult to say for sure because he was on box rest with a fracture at the time, however he was still girthy etc. so I would say it wasn't the answer either (I tried it for 2 big tubs). However, he is a poor doer but got fat on it - but again, he was on box rest so it could have been that. I did try Gastro Plus too and this seemed the most effective. The second batch of GP ran out a few weeks ago and he is having a bit of a relapse again, he is girthy, very touchy particularly on right side (I couldn't clip around stifles, especially on right, even sedated), bucking and broncing when ridden and I never know how much I can put my leg on and how he will react. Not long after the GP finished I also ran out of Yeasacc, so I'm not sure which is the ultimate culprit. I have yeasacc on order so he is going back on that. I have also ordered some bicarb from hyperdrug to try. I already feed corn oil so I think I'm going to mix the bicarb into the oil and add that and see how we go. If this gives a small amount of improvement or none at all I will try the Equishure, at least you can get a 10 day supply for £36 to try. Oh, and he has been on both Nettex Gut balancer (courtesy of free trial) and Protexin gut balancer for a while and these aren't helping.

i think i would really try and use one thing at a time, changing nothing else, and not keep mixing and matching and letting things run out otherwise you wont ever know what is working?! I am VERY careful to only change one thing at a time and NMT and I keep careful track of what we changed when so we are attributing changes to the right thing.

Isn't it interesting how many horses seem to have these problems. Are we all doing something wrong? Or did we just used to belt them one and carry on??

All signs of gut discomfort have gone in my horse and he is easily eating 30g of bicarb in each feed, which I intend to increase to 50g as soon as I can. I can now kick him if I need to, with no reaction other than the one I want.

more horses on livery struggling with limited pasture so kept in more maybe?

thanks for update.

 

[cptrayes]

i think i would really try and use one thing at a time, changing nothing else, and not keep mixing and matching and letting things run out otherwise you wont ever know what is working?! I am VERY careful to only change one thing at a time and NMT and I keep careful track of what we changed when so we are attributing changes to the right thing.

Totally agree with this.

more horses on livery struggling with limited pasture so kept in more maybe?

thanks for update.

Quite possibly. Wish it was that simple with mine, he has twelve acres and is only stabled to eat hard food and be tacked up. It's just his previous pain from his back and introvert worrying nature, I think.

Today I have him on 50g of bicarb in 100ml of oil in damp alfalfa with no trouble at all. Now we will stick there with that in both feeds, allow his gut to stabilise the bugs in its new less acidic environment, and see what the result of weaning off the Omeprazole is.

I'm now thanking my lucky stars that he doesn't behave like some of the other horses people have written about on this thread!

 

[stimpy]

Today I have him on 50g of bicarb in 100ml of oil in damp alfalfa with no trouble at all.

How exactly are you making this? Are you measuring the oil and putting the bicarb in to that, mixing it and then adding to the alfalfa? Or are you adding the oil and the bicarb individually to the damp alfalfa and mixing it there?

I have tried adding bicarb to water but that has been unceremoniously rejected. I'd like to add bicarb to the feed but we already have enough problems getting the feed eaten consistently due the other minerals that are in there...

 

[Fuzzypuff]

i think i would really try and use one thing at a time, changing nothing else, and not keep mixing and matching and letting things run out otherwise you wont ever know what is working?! I am VERY careful to only change one thing at a time and NMT and I keep careful track of what we changed when so we are attributing changes to the right thing.

I already do this, I keep a diary of when things run out and what other conditions there are at the time as well as his behaviour. I only didn't rush to replace the yeasacc as I have previously not noticed it make much of a difference, but he is normally on it as standard anyway. There are also outside factors which are likely to be causing changes in his gut, namely changes in the grazing, so it's not possible to always say that something is definitely down to a change that I have made - it could be the time of year that I either added or took away yeasacc before it wasn't making as much of a difference as it might be now.

The reason I have tried so many different things was because I had him scoped on insurance and used the remaining insurance money to try and find a long-term solution in the form of a supplement. It was bad luck that he got a fracture when I was starting him on the Egusin, I would have preferred to have tried it when he was in work, but at the time I was mainly worried about whether he would need surgery or ever be ridden again, so I didn't think to set it aside until later.

more horses on livery struggling with limited pasture so kept in more maybe?

I think it's a combination of factors of how we keep horses these days - less horses living out, more stressed grazing, more horses fed concentrates/feeds the horse's digestive system is not designed for. However I think many horses would (and still are) just dismissed as "naughty" and either "worked through it" or passed on

 

[cptrayes]

How exactly are you making this? Are you measuring the oil and putting the bicarb in to that, mixing it and then adding to the alfalfa? Or are you adding the oil and the bicarb individually to the damp alfalfa and mixing it there?

I have tried adding bicarb to water but that has been unceremoniously rejected. I'd like to add bicarb to the feed but we already have enough problems getting the feed eaten consistently due the other minerals that are in there...

I put the oil in a pot and spoon in the bicarb and stir it. Then I pour it all around the top of the alfalfa and stir it in. He gets copper and brewers yeast and mag oxide in the morning feed too. Having said that, this particular horse will eat wormer, Bute and antibiotics in feed without batting an eyelid.

I increased it from 10g to 50g over about a week.

 

[Tnavas]

How exactly are you making this? Are you measuring the oil and putting the bicarb in to that, mixing it and then adding to the alfalfa? Or are you adding the oil and the bicarb individually to the damp alfalfa and mixing it there?

I have tried adding bicarb to water but that has been unceremoniously rejected. I'd like to add bicarb to the feed but we already have enough problems getting the feed eaten consistently due the other minerals that are in there...

Try adding peppermint oil to the mix - it hides a multitude of smells and tastes and great if your horse already likes peppermints

 

[stimpy]

I put the oil in a pot and spoon in the bicarb and stir it. Then I pour it all around the top of the alfalfa and stir it in. He gets copper and brewers yeast and mag oxide in the morning feed too. Having said that, this particular horse will eat wormer, Bute and antibiotics in feed without batting an eyelid.

I increased it from 10g to 50g over about a week.

Fab, that's what I wanted to know, thanks.

 

[stimpy]

Try adding peppermint oil to the mix - it hides a multitude of smells and tastes and great if your horse already likes peppermints

Funny, I was thinking about doing that when I was having trouble getting the mineral mix down them all. I may yet give that a go to get the bicarb in this one. I assume I should try to get food grade peppermint oil? Most of what I see for sale is essential oil.

 

[Fuzzypuff]

I read the following on another forum where someone had this reply from KER who make RiteTrac and Equishure which might be useful to people:

'You DEFINITELY want to add RiteTrac at the last minute before feeding because some of the ingredients do start releasing when in contact with water. Not a problem as long as it doesn't sit with water for a long time.'

Based on this I think when I start adding my bicarb and oil, I'm going to try and find a way that they are mixed and tipped in at the last minute (not so easy for breakfast where whole yard is fed by whoever arrives first).

 

[cptrayes]

I read the following on another forum where someone had this reply from KER who make RiteTrac and Equishure which might be useful to people:

'You DEFINITELY want to add RiteTrac at the last minute before feeding because some of the ingredients do start releasing when in contact with water. Not a problem as long as it doesn't sit with water for a long time.'

Based on this I think when I start adding my bicarb and oil, I'm going to try and find a way that they are mixed and tipped in at the last minute (not so easy for breakfast where whole yard is fed by whoever arrives first).

Looking at it before putting it in the feed, the oil gets into every tiny grain of the bicarb, so I think the water problem is either reduced or removed.

For the overnight one, can you leave it ready mixed in a cup with a stirrer for the person who feeds to do a quick last minute mix?

Mine was quieter to ride today than he has ever been in his life. It's too early to say whether the bicarb/oil has done this, it could be a multitude of things, but it was very noticeable. Maybe he's ill???

 

[ihatework]

I appreciate that the logisitcs of feeding hay can be difficult for some, especially surrounding storage & getting good quality.

But for this horse trying to at least trial him on hay for me is a complete no-brainer.
Wrapped hay - It's not easy to get hold of and is expensive, but could be worth trying to get a months worth to try?
Otherwise regular bales the old fashioned way - pallets & tarpauline?

e.g. http://www.colehay.co.uk/wrapped-hay.asp

 

[Fuzzypuff]

Looking at it before putting it in the feed, the oil gets into every tiny grain of the bicarb, so I think the water problem is either reduced or removed.

For the overnight one, can you leave it ready mixed in a cup with a stirrer for the person who feeds to do a quick last minute mix?

Mine was quieter to ride today than he has ever been in his life. It's too early to say whether the bicarb/oil has done this, it could be a multitude of things, but it was very noticeable. Maybe he's ill???

Yes I think that's what I'll do, I have some little pots I can use, and I can even leave a note in there with it. Complicated much?!

Hopefully yours isn't ill and it's the bicarb!

 

[cptrayes]

I appreciate that the logisitcs of feeding hay can be difficult for some, especially surrounding storage & getting good quality.

But for this horse trying to at least trial him on hay for me is a complete no-brainer.
Wrapped hay - It's not easy to get hold of and is expensive, but could be worth trying to get a months worth to try?
Otherwise regular bales the old fashioned way - pallets & tarpauline?

e.g. http://www.colehay.co.uk/wrapped-hay.asp

Unfortunately it is not a no brainer or I would have done it. I keep two, soon to be three, horses in a barn overnight together. This would mean storing significant quantities of hay, or keeping him separated which is likely to cause him sufficient anxiety to bring on ulcers. I am also of the opinion that hay should not be fed unless soaked, and soaking that quantity of hay and then handling it wet is not to be sneezed at in winter when you live at 1100 feet.

 

[ihatework]

Your horses. your choice.
For me it's still a no-brainer given the transformation I have seen in specific examples of horses on hay v haylage
Good luck

 

[nikkimariet]

Your horses. your choice.
For me it's still a no-brainer given the transformation I have seen in specific examples of horses on hay v haylage
Good luck

Agree with this.

If there was a chance something might work, I'd do it. The worst that can happen is that it doesn't work.

 

[cptrayes]

Be a boring world of we were all the same

 

[Fuzzypuff]

I put the oil in a pot and spoon in the bicarb and stir it. Then I pour it all around the top of the alfalfa and stir it in. He gets copper and brewers yeast and mag oxide in the morning feed too. Having said that, this particular horse will eat wormer, Bute and antibiotics in feed without batting an eyelid.

I increased it from 10g to 50g over about a week.

My bicarb has just arrived. Do you know how many g are in a scoop? I have pretty much every size of scoop at the yard.

 

[cptrayes]

My bicarb has just arrived. Do you know how many g are in a scoop? I have pretty much every size of scoop at the yard.

By a happy coincidence, it weighed in for me at exactly 1g per ml. My 50 ml scoop weighed 50g

I have thought this morning's ride through and he really was VERY different from normal. I can't ride tomorrow but I will report next time I do.

 

[katherine1975]

Please could you tell me how much oil and bicarb you feed each day and what type of oil. Thank you.

 

[cptrayes]

Please could you tell me how much oil and bicarb you feed each day and what type of oil. Thank you.

I have gone by Paddy555 telling me that they feed 90g of equishure a day. I checked up the things that it's made of, and reckoned that a close approximation for a big horse like mine was 50g bicarb in 100ml of oil, in each feed, which for mine is twice a day. I use Tesco vegetable oil, which is rapeseed oil. Some people will frown at that, but I have fed my other horse it for years to keep his weight on hunting, with no problems. And it's cheap!!

 

[katherine1975]

Thank you.

 

[paddy555]

Unfortunately it is not a no brainer or I would have done it. I keep two, soon to be three, horses in a barn overnight together. This would mean storing significant quantities of hay, or keeping him separated which is likely to cause him sufficient anxiety to bring on ulcers. I am also of the opinion that hay should not be fed unless soaked, and soaking that quantity of hay and then handling it wet is not to be sneezed at in winter when you live at 1100 feet.

I agree it should be soaked. We are at 1000ft although I am not sure why that matters and it takes me an extra 10 mins a day to soak. I soak for 10 (around 5 bales when it is snow or ice and they cannot get any grass)

 

[cptrayes]

I agree it should be soaked. We are at 1000ft although I am not sure why that matters and it takes me an extra 10 mins a day to soak. I soak for 10 (around 5 bales when it is snow or ice and they cannot get any grass)

I admire your fortitude. Personally at my age I find standing out on a peak park hilltop in freezing temperatures and howling gales to soak hay, and then freeze my fingers handling it into the barn wet, beyond what I am prepared to do until I have ruled out using some bicarb and oil. Not to mention what the devil you do when your water supply is frozen, and the next days hay also freezes overnight Though that has only happened twice so far this winter, it would have been a total of a couple of months of last winter.

Incidentally bicarb and oil appears to be having a fairly dramatic effect on his personality in the last couple of days. But time will tell.

 

[paddy555]

I admire your fortitude. Personally at my age I find standing out on a peak park hilltop in freezing temperatures and howling gales to soak hay, and then freeze my fingers handling it into the barn wet, beyond what I am prepared to do until I have ruled out using some bicarb and oil. Not to mention what the devil you do when your water supply is frozen, and the next days hay also freezes overnight Though that has only happened twice so far this winter, it would have been a total of a couple of months of last winter.

Incidentally bicarb and oil appears to be having a fairly dramatic effect on his personality in the last couple of days. But time will tell.

good to hear about the bicarb.

not much fortitude I am afraid, far too old for that!!! Simply a case of put hay in bath in barn, switch tap on and pull plug when soaked. No frozen water, everything is lagged. It lasted a couple of months with us last winter as well.

 

[Mike007]

If you buy good hay ,there is seldom any need to soak it. Storage is easy, mini polytunnel sheds make great hay stores. Also ,good hay is NEVER unavailable,regardless of the summer. It meerely costs more,but it is still always cheaper than hard feed ,suplements and vets bills.Haylage is in my opinion a feedstuff of last resort for those horses with copd because their owners fed bad hay. It causes more problems than it solves.

 

[cptrayes]

good to hear about the bicarb.

not much fortitude I am afraid, far too old for that!!! Simply a case of put hay in bath in barn, switch tap on and pull plug when soaked. No frozen water, everything is lagged. It lasted a couple of months with us last winter as well.

You may a complete bath full of water overnight . ???

I can wake to a bucket of water frozen sold in winter. Before I set up a running water system, I used to have heaters in my water buckets.

 

[cptrayes]

If you buy good hay ,there is seldom any need to soak it. Storage is easy, mini polytunnel sheds make great hay stores. Also ,good hay is NEVER unavailable,regardless of the summer. It meerely costs more,but it is still always cheaper than hard feed ,suplements and vets bills.Haylage is in my opinion a feedstuff of last resort for those horses with copd because their owners fed bad hay. It causes more problems than it solves.

You are not up to date, I think, with research on dust and mould spotes in even the best quality hay.

My friends, I, and thousands of other horse owners have fed haylage for 20 years with no issues.

this mild problem with my own horse was caused by a change to the new season haylage, an upset which could equally well have occurred with hay.

I find haylage far easier to use than hay, and if I can resolve a mild gut imbalance with a few pence of bicarb, then I will continue to use it, but thanks anyway.


I will add that there is haylage and haylage just like there is hay and hay. I do not use ryegrass haylage, mine is meadow haylage, which I believe is better for horses.



ps. Given that in the last two winters high winds we have had trouble keeping the conservatory attached to the house on our exposed hilltop, I had a laugh out loud at the idea of being able to stop a polytunnel from going on a pilgrimage

 

[cptrayes]

For spotes read spores

For may, read lag

For sold, read solid

 

[Tiddlypom]

Mine was quieter to ride today than he has ever been in his life. It's too early to say whether the bicarb/oil has done this, it could be a multitude of things, but it was very noticeable. Maybe he's ill???

Let's hope that you aren't accidentally poisoning him with this homemade concoction.

A trial of soaked hay would be so much safer, and the worst that could happen is that it makes no difference...... (And soaking hay really is a doddle, I do it all the time ).

 

[Mike007]

You are not up to date, I think, with research on dust and mould spotes in even the best quality hay.

My friends, I, and thousands of other horse owners have fed haylage for 20 years with no issues.

this mild problem with my own horse was caused by a change to the new season haylage, an upset which could equally well have occurred with hay.

I find haylage far easier to use than hay, and if I can resolve a mild gut imbalance with a few pence of bicarb, then I will continue to use it, but thanks anyway.


I will add that there is haylage and haylage just like there is hay and hay. I do not use ryegrass haylage, mine is meadow haylage, which I believe is better for horses.



ps. Given that in the last two winters high winds we have had trouble keeping the conservatory attached to the house on our exposed hilltop, I had a laugh out loud at the idea of being able to stop a polytunnel from going on a pilgrimage

If up to date means believing everything we are told by "researchers"working for companies trying to sell us somthing ,without checking it against reality and experience,then I certainly am not "up to date".On the other hand I do have over 40 years experience of selling hay and straw,and direct knowlege of how many hundreds of my customers horses have fared on the various regimes they imposed.
Yes there will always be some mould spores . They even exist in the stems of the growing plant.And as haylage start to dry ,it too disperses mould spores.Mould spores are everywhere ,they are a fact of life on this planet. And horses cope quite adequately with them ,in general. What both horses and humans cannot cope with is large amounts and in particular , the Aspergillus mould .This creates an allergic reaction and permanently damages the breathing. This is not due to hay ,it is due to feeding hay that should never have been anywhere near horses , and should have been burnt.
As for thousands of horse owners feeding haylage without any issues. This is certainly not my experience. If I were to put a figure on it ,I would say that of all the horses I have known on haylage, at least 75% have had some sort of problem. Digestive upsets ,colic, Ulcers. And this figure doesnt include those that develop various vices due to feeling permanently hungry from lack of fibre. However, as I mentioned earlier,haylage has saved many horses with copd and in that respect it has a place as a last resort.But the trick is not to let them get ill in the first place.