Hind gut acidosis - supplement help please

Fuzzypuff said:
Lucky you!

Although the problem I am finding is all the other factors - he has improved a little in this last week and I'm pretty sure that is down to the easing off of the rain. But of course this makes it difficult to tell if the bicarb is making any difference at all which is quite frustrating!
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I also reckon it takes a month or so for the hind gut bacteria to stabilise to the new environment, before I can really judge what might be going on. Unfortunately, if a horse goes out and it's also sensitive to grass fluctuations, you haven't got a hope of working out what is what!
 
I've been reading with interest as my horses (and 2 goats) live on a diet of haylage in winter as I really cannot rely on a good source of hay. I've never perceived a problem, but one is retired and another is a youngster so neither in work. My retired mare is out on grass but she is supplemented with haylage. Anyway, I'm also married to a geek ;) so I'm going to be testing my haylage tonight. Our mains water is 6.95 so not bad (neutral is 7). I'm also going to go out and buy a bale of hay from the local feed merchant tomorrow (ironically this was the best year for hay in Ireland for a long time) and I'll also test a bale of the barley straw I use for bedding. And, just because it's soaking I'll test the beet pulp! Just as an aside, I did read a report the other day on what forages a horse prefers, off the top of my head the horses were fed ad lib silage, haylage (two types one drier than the other) and hay. The preference was silage then haylage (the wetter one) followed by the drier haylage and lastly the hay. Hay was the only forage that was left. Does this mean that horses don't know what is best for their hind gut health or is something else going on? I'll try and find the report and post it.
 
doriangrey said:
I've been reading with interest as my horses (and 2 goats) live on a diet of haylage in winter as I really cannot rely on a good source of hay. I've never perceived a problem, but one is retired and another is a youngster so neither in work. My retired mare is out on grass but she is supplemented with haylage. Anyway, I'm also married to a geek ;) so I'm going to be testing my haylage tonight. Our mains water is 6.95 so not bad (neutral is 7). I'm also going to go out and buy a bale of hay from the local feed merchant tomorrow (ironically this was the best year for hay in Ireland for a long time) and I'll also test a bale of the barley straw I use for bedding. And, just because it's soaking I'll test the beet pulp! Just as an aside, I did read a report the other day on what forages a horse prefers, off the top of my head the horses were fed ad lib silage, haylage (two types one drier than the other) and hay. The preference was silage then haylage (the wetter one) followed by the drier haylage and lastly the hay. Hay was the only forage that was left. Does this mean that horses don't know what is best for their hind gut health or is something else going on? I'll try and find the report and post it.
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Ooh, DG how absolutely fascinating. You don't think of horses selecting what's bad for them, do you? I have a suspicion that it may have to do with fermentation levels resulting in higher alcohol levels. As we know, humans will readily choose alcohol when it is bad for them. I have noticed with haylage that the more alcoholic the bale smells when I open it, the more keen they are to get their chops round it.

I'll go and read that report now and see if it debunks my theory.
 
cptrayes said:
Ooh, DG how absolutely fascinating. You don't think of horses selecting what's bad for them, do you? I have a suspicion that it may have to do with fermentation levels resulting in higher alcohol levels. As we know, humans will readily choose alcohol when it is bad for them. I have noticed with haylage that the more alcoholic the bale smells when I open it, the more keen they are to get their chops round it.

I'll go and read that report now and see if it debunks my theory.
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Funnily enough CPT, my last haylage bale that was delivered (I get one every 3 weeks or so at the moment) I think is a newer one (this year's cut) than the ones my supplier has delivered in the past few weeks. It's a little bit damper and more stemmy (is that even a word?), it does smell a little more alcoholic. The drier ones were soft and fragrant and smelled of pineapple (I'm a serial haylage bale sniffer!) and annoyingly drew wasps towards them in the warmer months. I don't know whether it is the cut which is longer and coarser but the small pony and goats don't seem as fond of it. Thoroughbred on the other hand is tucking in like mad, bless her :0 This is the one I'm testing as I would expect it to be more acidic and it's the one I have to hand! I do wish I wouldn't keep reading that haylage contains more sugar than hay because its very method of preservation should generally make it lower in sugar! I'm off to test my batch now - I'll post the result but I'll also test in the morning. It's been soaking for 3 hours now.
 
Fuzzypuff said:
Lucky you!

Although the problem I am finding is all the other factors - he has improved a little in this last week and I'm pretty sure that is down to the easing off of the rain. But of course this makes it difficult to tell if the bicarb is making any difference at all which is quite frustrating!
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so keep going for a while longer and keep everything else the same?

we are SO careful with CS not to change too many things at once its helps keep things clear.
 
Gosh another thread where OP gets rude at some posters suggestions and refuses to do it, then half way down the page changes to the suggestion given that they shouted down.

Oh then I saw who the OP was lol not surprised after all.
 
dianchi said:
Gosh another thread where OP gets rude at some posters suggestions and refuses to do it, then half way down the page changes to the suggestion given that they shouted down.

Oh then I saw who the OP was lol not surprised after all.
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Have you tested your twenty year old mare for Cushings yet Dianchi?

Oh sorry, I forgot, you don't want to do that because if she comes back positive you'll then have to give her medication that will interfere with your desire to compete her.

I completely accept your criticism, because you know all about shooting down the suggestions of others, both in PMs to me and on threads :)

I'd like to thank the people who challenged me sufficiently, and politely, enough to make me ph test my haylage and discover that I could deacidify it by soaking. I still won't be buying, storing, or feeding hay if I can avoid it.
 
doriangrey said:
So after soaking in warm water for 3 hours the reading is ph 6.76.
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Might warm water encourage the haylage to ferment?

I have never used haylage, whether soaked or not. I do soak my hay however (in cold water), and in summer it soon heats up if accidentally left too long. In hot weather, I soak and drain it just before feeding, whereas in winter it can be left drained all day without heating up.

Just a thought.
 
Sorry everyone, my OH has informed me that the ph meter has to be recalibrated so I have to order buffering solution at 7.1ph and 4ph. I'm still going to do the tests anyway but the results won't be available until the weekend. It won't solve hind gut problems in horses, but I'll post the results for what it's worth. I bought hay today to test anyway.
 
Tiddlypom said:
Let's hope that you aren't accidentally poisoning him with this homemade concoction.
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Get a grip on reality dear - how can some bicarb and oil poison him??!!!!

cptrayes - I take it that the bicarb level is around 33% of the mix and the rest oil. I am going to pass this on to a friend who has a really snakey horse - may be his problem. You need body arnour when you tack him up! :D
 
50g or 50ml (same thing) of bicarb and 100ml of oil, Tnavas. That's for a very big horse in each feed It approximately replicates the proportions of the two ingredients in the commercial product.
 
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doriangrey said:
Sorry everyone, my OH has informed me that the ph meter has to be recalibrated so I have to order buffering solution at 7.1ph and 4ph. I'm still going to do the tests anyway but the results won't be available until the weekend. It won't solve hind gut problems in horses, but I'll post the results for what it's worth. I bought hay today to test anyway.
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You're showing off now :D. You've got a fancy one, ours isn't that clever!
 
cptrayes said:
You're showing off now :D. You've got a fancy one, ours isn't that clever!
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I was a bit suspicious of the results, so I stuck it in some vinegar which at 5% acid should have read between 2 - 3.4 ph. When the reading stuck at 6.5 I thought I'd better read the instructions :D

This is not relevant, but as I was trying to google if I could calibrate it with a home made solution (not really possible) I came across an interesting 'herbal' site. And if anyone here is old enough to remember Bill and Ben and their little 'friend' in the garden, they'll know what I mean!
 
Tnavas said:
Get a grip on reality dear - how can some bicarb and oil poison him????!!!
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No need to be patronising.

You need to watch out for the law of unintended consequences. OP is feeding a product which she readily admits may not be suitable for the horse. She then adds x and y to counteract the effects of the unsuitable product, and may then also inadvertently be affecting unknown factors w and z.

I really will bow out from this thread now. Carry on.
 
Tnavas said:
Get a grip on reality dear - how can some bicarb and oil poison him??!!!!

cptrayes - I take it that the bicarb level is around 33% of the mix and the rest oil. I am going to pass this on to a friend who has a really snakey horse - may be his problem. You need body arnour when you tack him up! :D
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Tiddlypom said:
No need to be patronising.

You need to watch out for the law of unintended consequences. OP is feeding a product which she readily admits may not be suitable for the horse. She then adds x and y to counteract the effects of the unsuitable product, and may then also inadvertently be affecting unknown factors w and z.

I really will bow out from this thread now. Carry on.
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Oh honestly :) !

OP is feeding nothing that is not being fed by hundreds of people all over the world. By your logic it would be dangerous to feed any supplementary food at all :D
 
Prince33Sp4rkle said:
so keep going for a while longer and keep everything else the same?

we are SO careful with CS not to change too many things at once its helps keep things clear.
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I am very careful too, my point was just that sometimes there are factors I can't control, and with a very sensitive horse sometimes it is difficult to even work out what the thing is that has changed.

Additionally he is super fussy and will sometimes just stop eating his feeds even though nothing has changed and then I have to strip them right back and add everything in one by one - so then again that messes up any trials of supplements I have on at the time!

Like you say it is time, but you are very lucky if you can tell in 24 hours if something is working, as for me it is weeks or months to know for sure!
 
A friend of mine went on a colic seminar in the US the other day where they said that it takes 14 days for the hind gut flora to stabilize after a feed change. I'm not going to judge anything more until I've been soaking haylage for two weeks, and then the new boy will have been here more than a week too, so that change will also be out of the way.

I might ride him tomorrow if he seems really calm.
 
paddy555 said:
Amanda,you must be as old as I am!!!!! Do you remember Andy Pandy (on Tuesdays) Rag, Tag and Bobtail (on Thursdays) and then the Woodentops (on a Friday)
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What about tales of the riverbank????

And does anyone else know the Pingwings, it only showed in the south east region.
 
paddy555 said:
Amanda,you must be as old as I am!!!!! Do you remember Andy Pandy (on Tuesdays) Rag, Tag and Bobtail (on Thursdays) and then the Woodentops (on a Friday)
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Yep and Tales of the River bank. I couldn't possibly remember what days they were on though! lol I already knew I was as old as you and CPT!
 
paddy555 said:
Amanda,you must be as old as I am!!!!! Do you remember Andy Pandy (on Tuesdays) Rag, Tag and Bobtail (on Thursdays) and then the Woodentops (on a Friday)
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OMG there are people as old as me

I think they aired at 1:45 weekdays and there was 'Listen with Mother' on the radio every week day too

Monday - Picture Book
Tuesday - Andy Pandy
Wednesday Bill and Ben
Thursday - Rag, Tag and Bobtail
Friday - The Wooden Tops - I do a mean impression of Spotty Dog complete with lateral leg moves!

Tales of the Riverbank were a few years later and I think aired at 5:45pm for 15 mins before the News. Do you also remember The Magic Roundabout?
 
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