Hip-scoring non-breeding pets

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Pix

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Inspired by Tamsin's thread on hip dysplasia :)

My boy Loki is a GSD, a breed prone to hip dysplasia. When looking for a pup I was quite concerned with health testing, particularly hip scores, and that had a factor on choosing a breeder etc. However, I'd always assumed that part of buying a GSD pup would be to have he himself scored at 12-18 months or so. The money to have it done has been set aside since before we met. Reasons being that a) I'd wanted us to do some sort of work or activity together (and still do, when I stop hitting brick walls with transport :rolleyes:) so a hip score seemed sensible if jumping around was involved. Reason b) was so that I could feed the scores back the breeder, as I know she is planning a third and final litter from the bitch. To be fair even if she wasn't, I would have thought it was best to have as much information on the current litters' hip scores as is available.

However, I've met a lot of people who are of the opinion that there is no need unless you plan to breed (Loki had his nuts stolen recently- I wouldn't pretend to know enough to pick out the right bitches or even if he was worthy of spreading seeds around, so alas, his loss in terms of fun time :D:p) and that if the dog is sound, there is no reason to x-ray. I can understand the point of view- it's expensive and as I understand it a GA is required in order to get the dog still enough, long enough, to take an x-ray.

So for the sake of say, academic interest (:p) what are your opinions? Should owners bother to health test and score dogs that are pets or workers that won't be breeding? Or is it a case of wasted cash and effort, especially since many dogs with high scores may never encounter any problems?
 
I would if I was planning to do agility/hard work with him, even if that is just heavy hiking/biking/jogging etc. I'd want to know if my dog, stoic as he is, would be done any harm by slamming on and off an A-frame and over the 1m hurdle.

My two had their prelims done (with a vet who I have since gone to) and I was happy enough with the look of those, when I realised neither were breeding quality once they reached maturity.
B had his done again almost two years ago, as mentioned, to investigate a lameness and they looked super.
Did not score as between my mother, the vet and I, we can read a plate pretty well.

As you say, it's also good practise to let the breeder know if you decide to go the whole hog and score them with the BVA.

You can't realistically **know** that any dog is 'sound' unless the plates are scored, as mentioned in the other thread, I've known an absolute flying machine with a score almost off the scale. But she wasn't truly 'sound', the position of the ball/socket and her muscle strength was enough to mask the problem.
Obviously if they look like a Jackson Pollock painting, then you'll not need to spare the expense! But I am sure they will be fine x

Not all vets do GA.
 
If I had the spare dosh I would have my terrier scored. She wont be used for breeding or any hard work, she is a pampered pet through and through (will expect her to deal with her fair share of rats and mice though!) but I am far too nosey for my own good, despite HD not being a huge problem in the breed.

I would have myself hipscored!
 
I don't see the point if you have a healthy dog in putting them through a GA, 1 in 600 odd dogs die under anaesthetic, be sensible in your work load and see how it goes surely would be my opinion. But then.. I also don't have that much faith in the current hip scoring system.
 
As a breeder I am always delighted when people choose to have their dogs hips scored, as it helps build up a picture of what a line is producing. I would never put pressure on them if the dog is just a pet, but if they are planning on working, doing agility etc I would definitely encourage it. If they are planning to breed the hips would have to have a low score before I remove non breeding endorsements.
In your case Pix, as you are planning to work/jump him I would have him done if I were you. A GA is not obligatory, my vets x ray with a sedative and if a dog was not going to be bred from I think I would accept the score they predicted (they are very good) and thus save the expense of submitting for scoring. Quite a lot of breeders come to them from a great distance, don't know if you are prepared to travel?
 
Dax had to have her hips x-rayed after she managed to dislocate one of the bloody things so I got a 'free' look at the hips that way. Not sure I'd bother otherwise, she was already neutered and as a breed they aren't prone to dysplasia. If we got into racing in a major way I might have considered it as she is a very stoic dog - let the vet squeeze her dangling leg with nary a murmur - and I'd want to convince myself that she was sound and happy over distance.

As it is the vet was very happy with the way they looked but warned that if she is going to get arthritis it will probably present in the dislocated hip first as the ligaments and whatnot are never quite the same afterwards. :rolleyes:
 
Yes I think its a good idea, particularly if high level of activity is on the cards. My vets don't GA for taking scoring xrays, heavy sedation only, far less risk and far less wobbly dog time. All pretty quick.
 
MM- Traveling is a sore point at the moment :rolleyes: Though would hopefully be sorted by the time it becomes an issue.

TBH the GA would be the main thing that would put me off, but if it can be done with sedatives instead that's good news. :)
 
Oops sorry, forgot about the travelling issues. Have to admit nosy Evie took a while to go to sleep, everytime the vet popped his head round the door to see if she had gone she woke up again.:p But they are so good, you can stay with them throughout (just go behind the door while the actual x ray is taken) and then once the x rays are developed and you have been given an estimate of the score, they are awake again and able to walk out the door.
 
SusieT I know the system isn't a failsafe but when you see that the average score is somewhere like 21, and the median score is 13, you can't help but think that over the years it has helped to promote more responsible breeding practises.

And the fact that we don't do it with humans - I don't really get that argument. Although babies can get dysplasia, very uncomfortable and they have to have their hips basically plastered into place.

I've never heard of a shep in my circle (dunno how else to put it!) dying under GA, that's over many years and hundreds of dogs, and I certainly don't think it's not a good reason to put them under (B was done with a sedative BTW)

But not looking for a ruck, we've had enough of that already today :p :)
 
CaveCanem said:
the average score is somewhere like 21, and the median score is 13,
Click to expand...

Statistical confusion! And sorry if I've got my statistics head on and it's making me dense to common sense :o But a median is an average. With the aforementioned 'average' score that is compared to the median, which method was used for that other average? Mode? Mean? I'm probably being an annoying ass bandit but I'm OCD with numbers (I'm so not going into that embarrassment here!) and thus need clarification in order to sleep easily and reassure myself I'm not that mental after all :p:D Do you know the best place to start looking for studies that have looked into average hip scores for GSD's? I'm assuming they are within veterinary journals somewhere, but there could well be a better meta-analysis of the data somewhere else.

MM- any chance you could PM the details of the vet you use, so that I have it as an option? Since I'll be ringing around the local vets before hand I may as well consider vets further away..... Assuming the *cough* travel *cough* issue is sorted by then :)

SusieT- I didn't quite follow the 'we don't do it for humans' logic so didn't comment until I had a chance to ponder it. But I think my view would be that well... I don't take wormers, or flea treatments, but the dog does. Similarly the female cat doesn't get badgered about cervical screening appointments, but I do. Oh joy of joys :rolleyes:I do fully understand where you're coming from with the GA issue though- that would be a major quirk for me and if I wasn't harboring hopes of doing some sort of work; and regardless of that, doing a lot of moors/hill hiking as standard walks, I'd be very tempted to just watch the exercise and see how it goes. :)
 
I wouldn't bother paying a fortune to the bva to get a number back if he has no nuts.

Find a specialist vet who does bones joints etc, my normal vet just happened to be such a sort, and he will tell you if theyre good bad etc. You'll get good enough idea from that whether to proceed with surgery or just lower exercise or not to worry at all.

Am speaking from experience with chlo xx
 
Don't forget Fh, you are saying on your other thread that you want to find a pup with hopefully parents previous offspring scored etc, if everyone followed your advice and didn't bother sending non breeding stock for scoring you would not be able to get this information. Its all very well a vet saying they are good or otherwise, but if a vet can give a reliable estimate of the score it would be better, although not perfect again . At least that could be reported back to the breeder.
 
Us too are lucky that we have a vet who specialises in structual bits in dogs.


We are going to have Dylan X rayed at 1 year old, however I dont see the point in hip scoring him as:

A) Hes not breeding stock, hes a family pet
B) Hes a X breed
C) Hes from a litter who probably wont be bred again (at least I blooming hope not, as still not covinced hes a accidental litter)

And the only reason I want him x rayed is he is going a X breed of two large dogs.
 
Pix said:
Statistical confusion! And sorry if I've got my statistics head on and it's making me dense to common sense :o But a median is an average. With the aforementioned 'average' score that is compared to the median, which method was used for that other average? Mode? Mean? I'm probably being an annoying ass bandit but I'm OCD with numbers (I'm so not going into that embarrassment here!) and thus need clarification in order to sleep easily and reassure myself I'm not that mental after all :p:D Do you know the best place to start looking for studies that have looked into average hip scores for GSD's? I'm assuming they are within veterinary journals somewhere, but there could well be a better meta-analysis of the data somewhere else.
Click to expand...

Right, I'll level with you, I am dyscalculic and have probably used the wrong word :o
So the average is around 21, but the recommended score for breeding from is 13.
Does that make any sense at all?!
 
CaveCanem said:
Right, I'll level with you, I am dyscalculic and have probably used the wrong word :o
So the average is around 21, but the recommended score for breeding from is 13.
Does that make any sense at all?!
Click to expand...

Perfect sense :D Ignore my blathering about averages, I'm easily side tracked with mathematical/statistical theory, most likely as a way of compensating for the fact that I can't do mental arithmetic for s*** and numbers worry me on a deep level :p:D
 
CaveCanem said:
**13 is the recommended HIGHEST score **brain explodes with all these worrying numbers**
Click to expand...

Don't worry, I interpreted your conclusion as you meant it, by facilitating your words into previously held schemata on the subject of hip scoring.

Now do the sensible thing and have a glass of wine like I am. It protects fragile neurons from the threat of numerical confusion. And it expands vocabulary. Not sure why that is. I blame grapes. Damnly grapes! Hanging around, looking all innocent on the vine. Planning.
 
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