Hock arthritis.

[minesadouble]

As far as I'm aware Cartrophen is not injected directly into the joint and Arthramid is, I'm unsure as I know very little about Cartrophen but I'm certain they are not the same product.
When I suggested to my Vets that I was keen to look at something other than Steroid injections for our mare they didn't even mention Cartrophen but were very positive about Arthramid.

 

[mavandkaz]

No experience of arthramid, but I do use cartrophen.
My basic understanding - arthramid acts as a cushion in the joint, so like the cartilage. Cartrophen triggers the body into making synovial fluid.
I use cartrophen as he as bone issues in several places, so don't want to be injecting multiple joints. The cartrophen works across the hole horse, and I inject it myself once a month. (Other people use it less, some top racehorses get it weekly) cartrophen has been a game changer for my boy who I was ready to retire in September.

 

[Surbie]

Mine doesn't have an official diagnosis of arthritis, yet, but he is 18, built on sturdy lines like me, and has been stiff. I suspect (and will be looking to identify) that he may well have some in multiple places so cartrophen may be my best option. Particularly now he's gone needle-shy.

I have had him on boswellia (not a concentrated form) for a while and not seen much change. I put him on devil's claw as well as boswellia 3 weeks ago and there is a marked improvement to his flexibility and his temperament.

Being out 24/7 when it's this muddy doesn't help him, he's actually better with about 10 hours turnout or a bit less. I try to keep his weight limited, do varied in hand work and keep him a shade warmer than I used to.

eta: I tried GWF Joint Aid Plus too last year and it made zero difference. Likewise turmeric & pepper. All I got from that was yellow sleeves from where he licks my arms.

 

[poiuytrewq]

Can anyone explain the difference between cartrophen and arthramid or is it just a brand difference? As far as I’ve read it seems to do the same thing or would you use it for different scenarios?
Sorry to derail OP.

Not at all! It’s adding to the info which is what I asked for!

 

[poiuytrewq]

I believe cartrophen is a Intramuscular injection. I know someone who used it a lot a few years back.

So I’ve been trawling through his old vet records and am now less convinced we can fix him than before.
I feel like it may be worth trying a really decent supplement, as in one of the more expensive ones like Boxmerisx or the 4Cyte and possibly regular cheap steroid.
I’d forgotten quite how weird and complex his issues had been.

 

[Cragrat]

My old lad has had one hock injected twice, and the other once, about 4 and 5 years ago. Before the injections, he was on 4Cyte, but it stopped being enough, and the vet suggested steroid injections, which worked well for a few years. Buteless Superstrength kept him going for the last year or so, but the vet recently confirmed my suspiscion that his knee (damaged last summer) was stuggling, and that it was likely a few other joints were also becoming arthritic (he is 20 now). We discussed Cartrophen, but he suggested the 10 day free trial of Bosmerix. After 6 days I phoned and ordered a full box. There was a very clear improvement.

 

[SEL]

Can anyone explain the difference between cartrophen and arthramid or is it just a brand difference? As far as I’ve read it seems to do the same thing or would you use it for different scenarios?
Sorry to derail OP.

Different products.

Arthramid is injected into the joint - it's a gel which helps the fluid between bones in the joint space.

Cartrophen is an intra muscular injection. I had mixed results with it (not helped by the horse it did improve being needle shy) but it's supposed to help the stimulation of cartilage. It's not targeted at a specific joint which I guess is why it works better on some horses than others. Weekly injections to start with.

 

[Peglo]

Different products.

Arthramid is injected into the joint - it's a gel which helps the fluid between bones in the joint space.

Cartrophen is an intra muscular injection. I had mixed results with it (not helped by the horse it did improve being needle shy) but it's supposed to help the stimulation of cartilage. It's not targeted at a specific joint which I guess is why it works better on some horses than others. Weekly injections to start with.

I read above that cartrophen gets injected monthly (or weekly as you’ve posted) Is that until it builds up or is that an ongoing treatment?


Thank you all for the explanation. That’s been really helpful and good to understand better.

 

[olop]

When mine was being investigated for his hocks the first port of call was Bosmerix. It’s quite expensive (I believe it’s the same price as Bute per sachet). I didn’t see any improvement with mine. The only thing that has worked is steroids in to the hocks but unfortunately they are starting to wear off. My vet wants me to trial Equioxx next but unfortunately due to some liver poisoning issues on the yard he can’t have it at the moment.

It’s so interesting reading what works for some and not for others but thought I’d give you my experience with Bosmerix.

 

[Icedance]

Bozmerix didn’t work for me, I did cartrophen jabs and manage with superlex and alphabute- I’m tempted by the vetrophen supplement instead, does anyone use it? I’m due to have another course of jabs shortly but as much turnout as possible, keeping weight low and reducing concussion on the joints seems to work for me, I do magnet bands too but I know they’re not for everyone

 

[SEL]

I read above that cartrophen gets injected monthly (or weekly as you’ve posted) Is that until it builds up or is that an ongoing treatment?


Thank you all for the explanation. That’s been really helpful and good to understand better.

It's ongoing but how often you need it depends on how the horse responds. My needle shy one was doing well on 1 x fortnight but not so good on 1 X month. For cost and safety reasons I stopped and used Bute.

I'm going to throw CBD into the mix for supplements - I've seen a very impressive response with one of mine.

 

[poiuytrewq]

Weirdly, after more reading through old vet bits, unfortunately only some of which I saved at the time so there are chunks missing, I have the following that I don’t understand!

He was always stiff behind, lame (1/10) RH after neck injections.
Every exam he presents slightly lame in walk but sound in trot on hard and soft surfaces. (What’s that all about?)
Even though he presented slightly lame on and off nothing lower than his back showed hot spots during a bone scan and the X-rays were unremarkable.
Bute trails changed nothing, so I don’t think pain killing type supplementation will help anything.

I’m tempted to tell myself to stop dreaming and shut up at this point

 

[poiuytrewq]

I have just ordered the 4Cyte to give a try. I also rememeber i have some Boswellia that little old pony refused to eat, this one probably will too but may as well have a go!
He is already on some Devils Claw Liquid, not noticing any difference but its very early days.

 

[SEL]

Weirdly, after more reading through old vet bits, unfortunately only some of which I saved at the time so there are chunks missing, I have the following that I don’t understand!

He was always stiff behind, lame (1/10) RH after neck injections.
Every exam he presents slightly lame in walk but sound in trot on hard and soft surfaces. (What’s that all about?)
Even though he presented slightly lame on and off nothing lower than his back showed hot spots during a bone scan and the X-rays were unremarkable.
Bute trails changed nothing, so I don’t think pain killing type supplementation will help anything.

I’m tempted to tell myself to stop dreaming and shut up at this point

NQR in walk is often a chiro / physio issue - a twist of some sort. Because trot is diagonal pairs unless they're in pain they even up - pain would equal lameness somewhere on the evaluation.

It sounds like it's coming from his back. Physio find any muscular issues? When my PSSM mare is tight down her back (as in you have to avoid teeth if you run your hands down it) she presents as lame.

 

[poiuytrewq]

NQR in walk is often a chiro / physio issue - a twist of some sort. Because trot is diagonal pairs unless they're in pain they even up - pain would equal lameness somewhere on the evaluation.

It sounds like it's coming from his back. Physio find any muscular issues? When my PSSM mare is tight down her back (as in you have to avoid teeth if you run your hands down it) she presents as lame.

We did inject his back, even though the X-rays didn’t really warrant it. They weren’t the perfect picture but not worrying either. We simply injected ti give it a try and rule it out.
I’ll have a good prod around later and see if there is now anything obvious

Edited as I didn’t actually answer properly.
Lots of muscular issues yes. He’s still and wonky which is what we are trying to work on correcting with her doing lots of loosening off and me doing ground work

 

[mavandkaz]

In answer to your cartrophen question....yes it is ongoing. Initially a course of 4 injections 1 week apart (IM injections so can be given in neck or rump), then it's at regular intervals. Could be 6 monthly, 4 monthly, monthly, fortnightly etc depends on the horse. Vet originally did want to mention it due to the cost, but it works out at £80 a vial, so for me that's cheaper then the joint supplements he was on.

If you think there is an issue with the back/SI....
We have a horse on the yard who had ongoing back issues, and had been medicated in a previous home, but he just wasn't quite right. But the issue was that x-rays of the SI aren't great as don't give a clear picture. So they brought in a specialist who did a rectal ultrasound which showed a really clear picture.
(For this horse it showed that he had mild arthritis in the lumbar area, but also showed them that it wasn't the main issue - that turned out to be stifle)

 

[HappyHollyDays]

I have just ordered the 4Cyte to give a try. I also rememeber i have some Boswellia that little old pony refused to eat, this one probably will too but may as well have a go!
He is already on some Devils Claw Liquid, not noticing any difference but its very early days.

How are you getting on with the 4Cyte? And where did you get it from?

I spoke to my vet about Arthramid last week and it will be around £800-1000 for both hocks.

 

[poiuytrewq]

How are you getting on with the 4Cyte? And where did you get it from?

I spoke to my vet about Arthramid last week and it will be around £800-1000 for both hocks.

Well it’s early days, there’s a 14 day loading dose so we are about half way through that.
It’s odd stuff, I think I broke the top of the packet when I opened it as you’re supposed to fit the syringe into the top but mine doesn’t!!
He’s eating it happily, was a little suspicious on day 1/2 but fine since.
I can think off the top of my head where I got it and am at work currently (hand grazing hence on HHO!)
I can check when I’m home, it was a company I wasn’t familiar with.
I can’t say I’ve noticed a difference yet but I’d maybe not expect to until at least a good few weeks in.

I saw prices of Arthramid too I can’t justify that. I maxed out insurance and spent a fortune trying to fix him, I’ll do what I can but can’t throw money at it again. He’s absolutely fine in himself, I just dream of getting him riding again

 

[suestowford]

I have two here with arthritis. They are out together, all the time, with shelter if they want it. I also take them for in-hand walks as neither can be ridden. Other than that they are both on Bute every day.
The thing that's made the biggest difference to both of them is being out together all the time. They keep each other moving, all the time. One of them was on a supplement with his previous owner but with the price of everything else rising I cut that out and its absence hasn't been noticed.

 

[poiuytrewq]

I got it from Direct 4 pet as it was among the cheaper at £64.99 then there’s 5% off a first order and free post.

 

[HappyHollyDays]

I got it from Direct 4 pet as it was among the cheaper at £64.99 then there’s 5% off a first order and free post.

Thank you

 

[poiuytrewq]

Thank you

No worries, I think what works for one may not for another and Bute makes no difference with mine so I may not be the person but happy to check back in in a week or so and let you know how he is if you want before splashing out.
Mines dodginess is very weird!

 

[HappyHollyDays]

No worries, I think what works for one may not for another and Bute makes no difference with mine so I may not be the person but happy to check back in in a week or so and let you know how he is if you want before splashing out.
Mines dodginess is very weird!

Thanks, that would be great. He’s on Bute at the moment for an unrelated issue and seems more comfortable but I am exploring all options before shelling out for the Arthramid. Cartrophen was just too expensive as it didn’t last long enough and I’ve tried Buteless which also did nothing for him. It’s a bit of a minefield really and as you say what works for one doesn’t work for another which can work out as am expensive trial and error.

 

[visa_bot]

Can anyone explain the difference between cartrophen and arthramid or is it just a brand difference? As far as I’ve read it seems to do the same thing or would you use it for different scenarios?
Sorry to derail OP.

Arthramid is injected directly into the affected joint, it’s a gel that lubricates the joint. I’ve had it done for fetlock, coffin and tendon sheath. It has worked perfectly every time. Only had to have the tendon sheath one repeated but that was over 18 months ago and she is still sound. Cartrophen is just injected into the body, I think it was in the chest from memory but I haven’t had it for a long time as the arthramid is much better imo.

 

[Icedance]

Arthramid is injected directly into the affected joint, it’s a gel that lubricates the joint. I’ve had it done for fetlock, coffin and tendon sheath. It has worked perfectly every time. Only had to have the tendon sheath one repeated but that was over 18 months ago and she is still sound. Cartrophen is just injected into the body, I think it was in the chest from memory but I haven’t had it for a long time as the arthramid is much better imo.

I had cartro done into the bum, it’s intra muscular and does the whole body so if you’ve got an older creaky horse it can help with all issues which is partly why I went for it (and the risk of septic joints worried me a little with joint arthimid) but I might try arthimid this summer for hocks

 

[poiuytrewq]

I had cartro done into the bum, it’s intra muscular and does the whole body so if you’ve got an older creaky horse it can help with all issues which is partly why I went for it (and the risk of septic joints worried me a little with joint arthimid) but I might try arthimid this summer for hocks

Did you find the cartrophen worked?

 

[mavandkaz]

I commented earlier, but just incase you missed it ...
I inject cartrophen once a month, as horse as arthritis in hocks, neck, and possibly back. Wouldn't surprise me if elsewhere too, so injected into the joint is not an option or he would be a giant pin cushion. Back in September I was ready to retire him as just wasn't quite right/happy. (He was sound but I could tell he wasn't moving as well anymore and was tripping in front) so I started cartrophen.
I inject it myself, into his neck (but could do rump). Costs £80 a vial. So cheaper then the joint supplement he was on which didn't seem to douch
It has been a game changer. No more tripping, and currently moving the best he ever has.

 

[ihatework]

Cartrophen has at best a subtle effect. I haven’t seen it used with miraculous results and would prefer to use it in preference to an oral joint supplement for sure. But if you have an obviously arthritic hock for example, there is no comparison to using something like arthramid direct into the joint.

 

[poiuytrewq]

Cartrophen has at best a subtle effect. I haven’t seen it used with miraculous results and would prefer to use it in preference to an oral joint supplement for sure. But if you have an obviously arthritic hock for example, there is no comparison to using something like arthramid direct into the joint.

Yes that would make perfect sense.
I don’t really know what’s going on with mine so possibly an all round might help

 

[poiuytrewq]

I commented earlier, but just incase you missed it ...
I inject cartrophen once a month, as horse as arthritis in hocks, neck, and possibly back. Wouldn't surprise me if elsewhere too, so injected into the joint is not an option or he would be a giant pin cushion. Back in September I was ready to retire him as just wasn't quite right/happy. (He was sound but I could tell he wasn't moving as well anymore and was tripping in front) so I started cartrophen.
I inject it myself, into his neck (but could do rump). Costs £80 a vial. So cheaper then the joint supplement he was on which didn't seem to douch
It has been a game changer. No more tripping, and currently moving the best he ever has.

This is interesting. I have read all the comments I think but this stand out as your issues sound similar to my horse.
Can you tell me more about him? How he was and what you’ve tried etc please?