Hock problems - unridable

Wagtail

Wagtail

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My livery client's mare, an eight year old Belgian warmblood with top European show jumping lines has become unridable. The symptoms started a year ago, with what we thought was napping but soon became apparent that her behaviour was very different from the napping behaviour she had displayed in the past. Not going forward off the leg, holding herself in a bunched up false outline, turning round to bite rider's leg and kicking out to the side. Eventually, full blown rear when pushed to go forward. Went to to specialist centres in Newmarket and was better behaved with their staff riding her. Only displaye objection to her owner and myself, so they thought it was behavioural as there was not lameness even on flexion. However, I could see tha she was not stepping under and was holdin herself in that bunched up outline, not going through her back. Insurance refused to pay because there are no lameness issues.

Eventually some tiny changes found to the hocks, so she was injected. This cured her and we had her back to normal for 16 weeks, but then the symptoms came back so she was injected again. She went beautifully again but this time it only lasted 10 weeks. My client paid for her to have Tildren, but now she is worse than ever and refuses to be ridden, turning round to 'point' at the worse affected hock and threatening to 'explode'. I have looked at her xrays and the spavins are miniscule! You really wouldn't think she should be having problems.

We are at a loss. On the lunge she appears great as she has huge floating paces, but on closer inspection you can see that her hind legs are not stepping under her at trot. They do not come further forward than the vertical. It is so frustrating. Any similar experiences or ideas for a way forward?
 
ok so this might not be much help but... we used to have a horse who is what we might term bridle lame. She would be sound with one rider but not with another so what you are seeing sounds similar.


So, we know that medicating the hocks helps this horse. So there is a problem there. However, the fact that the problems are worse with one rider than another suggests that the way the rider is sitting affects how she feels about herself. It may be an undiagnosed back problem, she may be savings her hocks and causing trouble elsewhere. It may as simple as the saddle. I know that I have severe pain in my left leg and if I had injected it would ease the local pain but the actual problem is a slipped disc in my back which I cant technically feel until its manipulated.

I would recommend trying a few different saddles to see if she is happier with a change to the way the rider is balanced. I would then look at calling on the services of someone like Larry Bensusan who does body work with horses - a kind of shiatsu and massage therapy. £40 a treatment. To see if the horse is tight elsewhere.

Good luck !
 
When I've encountered this type of problem in the past and all vet route exhausted, I've gone for a good back treatment from a trusted McT, bute, and turned away in a large pasture for a few weeks/months ... It's a bit old fashioned, but many horses come sound after being turned away for a while!
 
I know you've been to NewMarket, but what about a 2nd opinion?
I'd recommend Peter Schofield of Hird and Partners. He's a lameness specialist, and is used by a lot of horse vets for referrals. I know a lot if dressage people who use him and you can go direct. May be worth ringing him?
Hope you get a solution soon....
 
Maesfen said:
Not much help but have you tried the bute test to see if it's mind over matter?
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Yes. It made no difference at all unfortunately. But the fact that the cortisone injections worked proved that it was physical. We really expected the tildren to work too, but it had no effect. Obviously a pain that bute is not strong enough to improve.
 
mrussell said:
ok so this might not be much help but... we used to have a horse who is what we might term bridle lame. She would be sound with one rider but not with another so what you are seeing sounds similar.


So, we know that medicating the hocks helps this horse. So there is a problem there. However, the fact that the problems are worse with one rider than another suggests that the way the rider is sitting affects how she feels about herself. It may be an undiagnosed back problem, she may be savings her hocks and causing trouble elsewhere. It may as simple as the saddle. I know that I have severe pain in my left leg and if I had injected it would ease the local pain but the actual problem is a slipped disc in my back which I cant technically feel until its manipulated.

I would recommend trying a few different saddles to see if she is happier with a change to the way the rider is balanced. I would then look at calling on the services of someone like Larry Bensusan who does body work with horses - a kind of shiatsu and massage therapy. £40 a treatment. To see if the horse is tight elsewhere.

Good luck !
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Thanks for your suggestions. We have tried several saddles, including the one that she used to be worked in, and no difference. I think that she is more cooperative with strangers because she does not feel she can communicate with them like she can with those she knows. She acts the same with three riders that she knows well at the yard but then will cooperate with total strangers, though I can see that she is unhappy and not working through properly or stepping under herself at all.
 
MissTyc said:
When I've encountered this type of problem in the past and all vet route exhausted, I've gone for a good back treatment from a trusted McT, bute, and turned away in a large pasture for a few weeks/months ... It's a bit old fashioned, but many horses come sound after being turned away for a while!
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good suggestion, although at this time of year we only use te all weather turnout. She is due to be put in foal this spring. Maybe that might sort her out as she will not be ridden for a long time, though now I am worried about whether itis right to breed from her.
 
millimoo said:
I know you've been to NewMarket, but what about a 2nd opinion?
I'd recommend Peter Schofield of Hird and Partners. He's a lameness specialist, and is used by a lot of horse vets for referrals. I know a lot if dressage people who use him and you can go direct. May be worth ringing him?
Hope you get a solution soon....
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Thanks, I will pass his name onto my client. She went to Sue Dyson to start with and she found nothing, then she went to Rossdales and they found the arthritic changes.
 
Mrussell, I meant to say, you are right about the back problem as we have had chiro and physio to her and she is sore through her back due to her hocks. When she had the injections it tok 4 weeks to improve her because the secondary back problem had to mend too.
 
Wagtail said:
She is due to be put in foal this spring. Maybe that might sort her out as she will not be ridden for a long time, though now I am worried about whether itis right to breed from her.
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Crikey... I think youre right to be concerned. If she was a human with unspecified pain thats increased by carrying weight, I bet she wouldnt choose to get pregnant...

I hope you find a solution. 2 treatments of Tildren didnt work for our old boy either but then hes 18 and has had a long hard life. Hes now virtually retired on 1 bute a day. He does however enjoy plodding out and his stiffness eases with exercise. If he started to refuse to move, I think we would call it a day. As hard as that sounds.

Good luck x
 
im sorry but i definitely would not be putting a horse with joint problems in foal as this has a high chance of being hereditary and also not fair to ask a horse with hock problems to carry round all that extra weight
 
tikino said:
im sorry but i definitely would not be putting a horse with joint problems in foal as this has a high chance of being hereditary and also not fair to ask a horse with hock problems to carry round all that extra weight
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Yes, I agree. But she is not my horse. I can only advise. She has impeccable breeding on both sides with no known problems. Her conformation is excellent. Though I have to say my advice has been to hold off at least until the reason for her problems can be found.
 
Has anyone suggested an arthroscopy? The problem with joints is that the cartilage can disintegrate but you can't see it on an x-ray. Steroid injections would temporarily resolve the inflammation but actually worsens the cartilage degeneration. Since destruction of the cartilage and fusing of the joint will often bring the horse sound, this isn't a bad thing. I don't know if you can even do an arthroscopy in the tiny spaces in the lower hock joints, but it sounds a likely problem to me, given the symptoms.

My spavined horse also had no visible damage on xrays but started refusing to jump, unheard of for him. . Kept in gentle work, sometimes buted, for two years, he is now sound and regularly winning/placed in novice dressage competitions.
 
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My horse has spavins in both hocks and although the steroid injections are great, I don't think you can use them alone. A horse with spavins will have probably been compensating elsewhere for a long time until his owner/rider notices he is stiff or lame - my vet and physio both said that horses with spavins/changes in hocks typically compensate in their lumbar and SI regions, meaning both areas can get very sore. I would say the horse needs a course of physio to help alleviate any residual soreness. My vet recommended 2 x osteo sessions (first one 2 weeks after first hock injections, second was 2 weeks after that) and then a physio session, and my horse has physio every 4-6 months now. It really helped him - you could see how much pain he was in when the osteo first treated him and now (18 months later), he goes to sleep during routine physio visits.

You could also ask your vet about Adequan. My horse has had 3 courses of this over the last 18-20 months and I think it helped him enormously with both the hock pain and muscular soreness (my vet says it is used to treat both arthritic conditions and soft tissue injuries).

Did your vet x-ray the horse? If it was done when she was first diagnosed then it's worth getting them taken again now to see if there has been any change. My vet also suggested bringing back into work slowly - how was the horse worked after the injections? I was told by vet to give 2 weeks off (with bute as steroid injections can be painful for sometime afterwards) then walk for 6 weeks, starting with just 20 mins and building up. I wasn't allowed to do any school work for about 2 months. Also look at how the horse is kept - horses with arthritis do better if they can be out 24/7. If that isn't possible then at least make sure she is turned out every day and kept in regular gentle work.
 
cptrayes said:
My spavined horse also had no visible damage on xrays but started refusing to jump, unheard of for him. . Kept in gentle work, sometimes buted, for two years, he is now sound and regularly winning/placed in novice dressage competitions.
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Thanks. Have his joints fused now or is his soundness due to treatment?
 
chestnut cob said:
My horse has spavins in both hocks and although the steroid injections are great, I don't think you can use them alone. A horse with spavins will have probably been compensating elsewhere for a long time until his owner/rider notices he is stiff or lame - my vet and physio both said that horses with spavins/changes in hocks typically compensate in their lumbar and SI regions, meaning both areas can get very sore. I would say the horse needs a course of physio to help alleviate any residual soreness. My vet recommended 2 x osteo sessions (first one 2 weeks after first hock injections, second was 2 weeks after that) and then a physio session, and my horse has physio every 4-6 months now. It really helped him - you could see how much pain he was in when the osteo first treated him and now (18 months later), he goes to sleep during routine physio visits.

You could also ask your vet about Adequan. My horse has had 3 courses of this over the last 18-20 months and I think it helped him enormously with both the hock pain and muscular soreness (my vet says it is used to treat both arthritic conditions and soft tissue injuries).

Did your vet x-ray the horse? If it was done when she was first diagnosed then it's worth getting them taken again now to see if there has been any change. My vet also suggested bringing back into work slowly - how was the horse worked after the injections? I was told by vet to give 2 weeks off (with bute as steroid injections can be painful for sometime afterwards) then walk for 6 weeks, starting with just 20 mins and building up. I wasn't allowed to do any school work for about 2 months. Also look at how the horse is kept - horses with arthritis do better if they can be out 24/7. If that isn't possible then at least make sure she is turned out every day and kept in regular gentle work.
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I will look into the Adequan, thanks.

We were advised only to give her two days off and then ride her. No bute or anything. We tried riding her and she was having none of it so we just lunged and then tried her after two weeks. She was slightly better and at least accepting some gentle riding, then over the next two weeks she got btter until there were no problems riding at all. Sadly it only lasted a few weeks.
 
I took a slightly different road with my gelding who had spavins in both hocks. He too had secondary back pain.

I chose not to have injections done as there were too many horses being injected and only getting temporary relief - and one I knew needed flushed out after getting an adversre reacton - all very nasty and not what I wanted for my lad.

So I gave up schooling, changed his diet onto a diet that supported joint health (included linseed, dropped cereals), and after a year's exasperation of the vet and farrier trying different shoeing combinations I took the plunge and got all his shoes off. His hooves took time to transition but that was OK.

Within 18 months he was quite sound, you'd never know now he had a huge problem, and he's got a great result from it. No shoes = no concussion. Yes, the farrier said he needed lateral extensions and that is always the justification for "must have shoes" - but you know what? He actually needed to grow on the medial side of his worst leg to be sound, and that's an extension that probably just won't work in shoes!

So - I took the conservative approach and I have a good result. Might be worth considering. Vet and farrier won't make anything out of it, but hey-ho the horse had his own ideas :)

The other thing - the expensive supplements - £100++ a tub - did nothing for him, but I noticed a significant improvemernt within a month of being on micronised linseed at £25 a bag. Interesting.
 
Thank, Brucea. The mare is currently unshod behind but her owner was thinking of going the barefoot route. Her feet are not the best conformation, though her hinds inproved significantly since removal of the shoes.
 
It may well be the case thgat the feet change remarkably when thay are allowed to grow free of the shoe - but I would advise her to get an experienced barefoot trimmer to look at it rather than the farrier.

Just a word of warning though - I spoke to my vet about arthritic changes and his attitude is "you just have to go looking to find them" - basically of the horse has arthritic changes in the hock then it's a fairly safe assumption they will be elsewhere and would show up on xrays of the lower leg, coffin joint, fetlock etc.

Back shoes off is a great start. The thing I found was not to force the foot into a shape that makes sense to us - on one back leg he flares to the inside. Leave it alone he's sound. Take it away he is sore and lame and grows it again. He grows what he needs to support the column above. That's why a trimmer's eye, rather than a farrier might be a better option.

Tin hat...incoming :)
 
My sister is a qualified barefoot trimmer butunfortunately lives too far away. She will put us in touch with someone she trusts near by. Thanks.
 
Wagtail said:
Thanks. Have his joints fused now or is his soundness due to treatment?
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he had no treatment (amazing how veterinary advice differs depending on whether the horse is insured of not!), just some bute during his worst spells and careful carm-up the rest of the time, cortaflex and devil's claw. We assume his joints are fused but since he is sound there is no point paying for any more xrays. I don't own him, and he is now in Colorado, having been exported by the person I gave him to.

Mine was also barefoot, and he grew an inside heel much higher than the outside heel on his hind feet while the condition was active. Farriers will often shoe a spavined horse with an inside wedge - he knew how to make one for himself! Ask your trimmer not to make any attempt to level the heels if the collateral grooves are different depths, that's what the horse needs. Balance them to the height of the sole at the seat of corn, not the external appearance, which is "unbalanced" but how she needs them to be.
 
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I'm also having problems with hock lameness.

It all started beginning of October when Zara went lame in a lesson. I gave her a week off and then called a vet when she was no better who nerve blocked and it blocked out as a bone spavin.
X-rays were taken but no changes were observed. She then had a steroid injection.

Three weeks later she was still lame so vet came out again and did more nerve blocks and it still showed her hock. Another steroid injection was given. Again she didn't come sound.

She was then sent off to the vet clinic where even more nerve blocks, scans and x-rays were taken. It is still pointing to the hock but again no bony changes are showing up.

I have taken all her shoes off now and she has been on bute but is still lame.

The next step is a bone scan so she's off to the RVC on 4th January so see if that shows anything. Have basically resigned myself to the fact that my fantastic endurance horse will no longer compete without a miracle.
 
Having had experience of it and the symptoms being similar I would be having the horse scoped for gastric ulcers. Just a different thought but sprung to mind when reading this.
 
My 4 yr old has lameness...
He had xrays and they show possible OCD. He had Adiquan, think he may have had joint inj too, cannot remember. He then ended up after another lot of xrays, down at Newmarket. Had arthroscopy, the main damage was in his stifle, cartilage which wasn't seen on xrays. The hocks also had OCD and were cleaned up but nothing could be done with stifle.
I would see if they can scan, as you can see a little if something is going on.
Best thing is to go in and look though.
 
Mitchyden said:
I'm also having problems with hock lameness.

It all started beginning of October when Zara went lame in a lesson. I gave her a week off and then called a vet when she was no better who nerve blocked and it blocked out as a bone spavin.
X-rays were taken but no changes were observed. She then had a steroid injection.

Three weeks later she was still lame so vet came out again and did more nerve blocks and it still showed her hock. Another steroid injection was given. Again she didn't come sound.

She was then sent off to the vet clinic where even more nerve blocks, scans and x-rays were taken. It is still pointing to the hock but again no bony changes are showing up.

I have taken all her shoes off now and she has been on bute but is still lame.

The next step is a bone scan so she's off to the RVC on 4th January so see if that shows anything. Have basically resigned myself to the fact that my fantastic endurance horse will no longer compete without a miracle.
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Bone scans are great. We had a mare here with hock lamenss for 3 years and nothing showing on xrays. The bone scan indicated upper suspensory desmitis and she was operated on and came completely sound. She is now jumping and doing dressage.
 
It needs a lot of patience - the spavin can take 2 years to stabilise and fuse and for the horse to get comfortable. Certainly it took a total of 3 years wiht my chap.

He was my dressage horse of a lifetime - and those dreeams had to go to one side. I could never afford another like him so we just found other fun things to do.

Also the vet did say that horses differ widely in their response to it - a small amount of change on one horse can cripple it where other horses (mostly natives) are more stoical and lessbothered by it.
 
I am interested in the Linseed as I am sure that the joint supplements I feed do nothing! Which one do you use and how much ??? Did you change his whole diet in order to feed this or can you feed this along side feed balancers etc.
 
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