Honest Opinions Needed on Horses Comfort

[Nasicus]

Note: I know this horse is overweight, it's been an ongoing battle with complications along the way!

Horse info:
15yo 14hh Barefoot
Stoic type
Owned for 5 years, previously been driven/raced on roads HARD.
Now non-ridden
Osteoarthritis + Bone Spurs and very slight rotation in front feet (diagnosed Oct 2017, treated with remedial trimming, cartrophen, danilon, moved to yard with flat fields and turned away 6 months, came sound confirmed by vets Feb 2018)
Suspect prone to very minor laminitic episodes (but never yet a big enough episode to get a diagnosis at the time)
Suspect for Cushings (Waiting to retest in autumn as early summer test with slightly outside of normal parameters)(Was tested Oct 2017 for EMS and Cushings, normal parameters)
Minor Diastema's along lower right row of teeth (vet says will need drilling out within the next year or so)

I need the opinions of the eagle eyes of the HHO crew please!

I've always said that once any of my horses are no longer comfortable in the field and field sound, I would PTS, and I'm worried that time might be coming for this mare. She's been footy on stony ground off and on most of the year, but in the last couple months that seems to have progressed from footy to lame, and from stony ground to any hard ground, including the hard, dry ground in the field. The vet commented that she seemed very stiff on turning to put her into the stable for her annual teeth/vaccs last week, which is something I had noticed too. The grass has been a concern this year, both for weight and laminitis, but I can't stable her daytimes due to it being very uncomfortable for her to stand in due to O-Arthritis. So they've been on a track (the far end is shown in video, water is that the other end to encourage movement) and are given a foot or two of long grass every 2-3 days between the two of them. They recently spent about a month shut in the bare paddock, being fed older, stalky hay, to avoid a grass flush and to try get some weight off and she actually went from footy to visibly lame at a walk when coming down the track to the water.

A couple days ago, she was visibly lame walking down the track (mainly a head bob and shortened stride), so I gave her a sachet of danilon. The next day, she seemed slightly sprightlier, trotting down the track with the youngster. Gave her a hollowed out apple with danilon in which she took and then proceeded to spit out and run off, so didn't get danilon that day. Next day (yesterday when the video was taken) she was very clearly stumbly-sore over the hardcore between the fields when coming down with the youngster, and in general looked uncomfortable. I got a danilon into her with a sloppy feed and took the video below.

So I need HHO's opinion on the video below. To me, she doesn't look comfortable, but I don't want to be seeing things because I'm looking for them, hence needing fresh eyes.

I feel like I'm a bit stuck.
If she's laminitic, I can't keep her in due to her arthritis.
If she's in a bare paddock, the hard ground seems to be causing her grief.
I can't ride her to assist weight loss.
I can't walk her out on the roads to lose weight as she struggles with going down hill (and that's pretty much unavoidable here)


And yet, she has her days and moments where she's fine. She was certainly happy running away from me when they broke into the (bare following hay making) paddock they weren't meant to be in, and she was throwing some almighty bucks a week ago when I was moving the electric fence in. She still lies down and gets up on her own accord. She'd still eat till she burst if given the chance. Still mutually grooms with the youngster when she's in the mood.

I don't want to go jumping the gun and putting her down because I was twitchy about her being sore, but then I don't want to wait until she goes down, or can barely move. I know there's worse fates for a horse than a clean death, and it's better a week too soon than a day too late, but am I just tying myself in knots over it and getting in my head?

I just need some thoughts and guidance from those with no emotional stake in this pony. Please be honest (but try word it gently, I'm feeling fragile over this and don't fancy crying at my desk lol). I'll most likely get the vet out soon to discuss it with him and get his opinion on the situation.

I can try get some better video if people would like it, I was having to dodge the very nosy 4yo who wanted to be the star of the film

Alcoholic bevvys of choice for making it this far!

 

[LaurenBobby]

To me in the video she looks very stiff, but I wouldn't say she looked 'lame'. If shes still getting up and down to sleep on her own accord that's a good thing . I would probably get the vet out or call them for advice, as hopefully they would know how much 'stiffness' would cause pain or not if that makes sense. There are certainly far worse fates than death for any horse, but I know what you mean about not wanting to jump the gun. Id call the vet and get their advice.

Mines a pink gin and lemonade please!

 

[be positive]

She is overweight which is not helping her arthritis but I would not give up on trying to get her lighter and moving more which will help generally, if she were mine I would get her onto a danilon every day for a month, possibly 2 for the first few days and see how she goes, I think people can be a bit too cautious about using bute when it can make a huge difference to their quality of life with little risk in the overall scheme of things, obviously you need the vet to agree but I see no reason why they would not prescribe it.

 

[ihatework]

If she were mine she would be on daily prascend trial, daily bute and if she were footy the front shoes would go back on, at least for the summer.

At least while you are evaluating her future.

I had an arthritic Cushings horse that I managed as above (with similar concerns you raise). Honestly though, it was a sticking plaster that managed QoL for a year or so and the eventual outcome was the same.

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

You've got her on restricted pasture already, but the problem with these cobs (my two are just the same) is that they'll literally live on air! And thrive on it.

As someone else has said, I'd be inclined to bung some danilon (if vet OK with prescribing) in her and see if that helps.

I know you're committed to keeping her barefoot, but with my old girl we kept her shoes on for the simple reason that she was very footy without them, and the farrier and vet both felt it would keep her more comfy. Just a thought.

Don't see what else you can do really.

 

[Leo Walker]

I think she looks stiff and sore enough that you would be justified in calling time. But if you arent ready yet then I would follow BPs suggestion, get her on regular painkillers and see how she goes. I feel your pain with her weight, Shes already restricted and on a track so I'm not sure what else you could do, so I think I would just shelve that for now. When you are all out of options then theres no point worrying yourself sick over it.

 

[ester]

So, I had a similar issue with F last year although he probably isn't as arthritic even though much older. The vet wasn't too worried (normal for 26) but for me watching him he wasn't behaving like himself and he was noticeably sore but it wasn't really clear where ie whether it was feet/arthritis etc. Vet did let me decide to keep giving him bute and monitor (he had had liver issues a couple of years previous but my preference will always be for shorter more comfortable life). He was improved on it enough for me to be happy to keep him pootling along unbooted and hope for rain. Eventually it rained and he lost all the retained sole that was flattening his feet.

He is kept on a grass track system, our stables are unbearable in summer and for me he needs to have good quality of life with lots of turnout in his dotage. If he can't cope with the level of management we are able to give him (at home) then I would call time for him.

I would not be too worried about how she looks in that video but equally you do know her best.

He has stayed on the bute but I was worried about this spring and would have been prepared to PTS had it gone the same course but he seems absolutely fine and up to all his old tricks.

I would absolutely ask to put her on a prascend trial, most vets are happy to do this,

 

[Nasicus]

Thanks for the replies so far!

Danilon-wise, I got it coming out the wazoo as she was prescribed it back when first diagnosed, and was off it for a good while when she did come sound, and then was only getting it after being ridden or before having her hooves trimmed, so she's definitely back on it full time now, vet was happy for me to do that when he came out for teeth/vaccs, but he only saw her go into the stable, not a proper walk around.

Shoe wise, it was advised not to shoe her by the vet that handled her case in Oct 2017, as they were concerned about the added concussive force of the shoes and the removal of the hoofs ability to flex and absorb impact hastening the progression of her arthritis. She has incredibly thick soles with no reaction to hoof testers, as evidenced via x-ray, so the issue isn't that she's feeling it on her soles of her feet, she's feeling it further up.

 

[ester]

Fwiw initially I could get F to react hoof wise, once the vet came he didn't react to hoof testers at all. But his white hind feet definitely display that there was an issue.

Do you need to give them the long grass? can you hay instead, that was definitely a change we made last year as would normally move the inner fence in and out.
Do you supplement magnesium? that makes a big difference to our fat pads.

 

[Nasicus]

Fwiw initially I could get F to react hoof wise, once the vet came he didn't react to hoof testers at all. But his white hind feet definitely display that there was an issue.

Do you need to give them the long grass? can you hay instead, that was definitely a change we made last year as would normally move the inner fence in and out.
Do you supplement magnesium? that makes a big difference to our fat pads.

I could in theory give them hay instead of the grass, but my aim with giving them the long grass is to keep them eating the older stuff which is drying out and gone to seed instead of seeking out any fresh, sugary growth. I'd have to give a lot of hay to keep them 'entertained' for the same amount of time as the long grass seems to, as the mare will just stand there and literally devour the hay I do put out. I might just have to suck up the cost and try it though!

They both get Pro Mineral which contains 6g of Magnesium per scoop.

 

[Goldenstar]

I would shoe in front up the danilon to two a day .
See how that goes but I would say the time is drawing near .
You right/to start thinking it through .
I have an arthritic retired one who is fat he can stand in luckily and I have a huge stable currently he’s come off the track and is out with his mates one night and in the next he’s in all day everyday .
To add to his complications he can’t sweat so has to be out the sun when it’s hot .
We are managing atm he’s lost a little weight he’s not footy at all .
It’s very very hard dealing with all these completing problems .
I wonder all the time will I miss the moment to stop.

 

[sportsmansB]

I'll have a G&T please

To be perfectly honest to me she doesn't look terrible, apart from being so fat. But her health issues where the management / treatment contradict each other is very difficult. Thats often the end of lots of lives (animals and peoples!) . I'd keep her on a danilon and if that makes her comfortable and shes happy enough with her lifestyle then let her tick on until something gives. I think you'll know, and at the moment you're not sure enough.
If the danilon doesn't work then definitely re think.

 

[meleeka]

I’d either push for a TRH Stimulation test or Prascend trial for a month and test for EMS. Lots of mild laminitis episodes can do as much damage as one big one so I think the key is going to stop her getting these laminitis episodes.

 

[Gloi]

I'd let her tick over on a bute or danilon a day and see if the vet will give a Prascend trial. I don't think she's bad enough to need to PTS on welfare grounds, though it's always your choice as you are paying the bills.

 

[Evie91]

When my oldie was arthritic she was on pain killers every day and wore front boots, with pads for turn out, had a thick shavings bed in the evening with no boots- different as not out 24/7.
I’d be tempted to give daily pain killers a shot.

 

[Nasicus]

Thanks for the continued replies, I'm reading them all, just not got the time to reply to them all right now, works got busy!

 

[SpringArising]

I'd have to give a lot of hay to keep them 'entertained' for the same amount of time as the long grass seems to

They don't need to be entertained. The horse is so obese you need to do anything and everything to get it off as much as you can. I don't agree with putting the shoes back on - I don't think it's going to help anything. I do think you need to put her on a solid Danilon plan and get her moving as much as you can. Yes it's going to be uncomfortable for her maybe but getting the weight off her is the only chance you have at this point. I would start with ten minutes walk in hand around the field per day and up it gradually.

 

[Fransurrey]

I could in theory give them hay instead of the grass, but my aim with giving them the long grass is to keep them eating the older stuff which is drying out and gone to seed instead of seeking out any fresh, sugary growth. I'd have to give a lot of hay to keep them 'entertained' for the same amount of time as the long grass seems to, as the mare will just stand there and literally devour the hay I do put out. I might just have to suck up the cost and try it though!

They both get Pro Mineral which contains 6g of Magnesium per scoop.

Bear in mind that they'll be eating the long grass in addition to short grass. My cob is quite streamlined, as he's in a bare-ish paddock with hay. You could always source oat or barley straw which is cheaper and lower in calories.

 

[holeymoley]

I don’t think she looks that bad soundness- wise for having everything you listed. She is chronically overweight, if you got hay reduced it would really make a difference to her joints.

 

[Trouper]

I, too, don't think it is true lameness but very stiff so all of the above but I would want to add in some physio/massage to help her use her muscles as well as she can .

 

[Gloi]

btw, your bare paddock has more grass on it than the long part of our field we are strip grazing them into. The grass is still growing on the bare part, it's amazing how little our fatties keep well on. Count the poos and you will see just how much they are actually finding to eat.

 

[rara007]

She really needs to loose weight. The second half of that field doesn’t look that bare. I’d look at giving her soaked hay or straw to eat, as spread out as you can manage to keep her moving, a balancer to make up for that and either cutting off the more grassy bit of paddock or muzzling her for periods of the day. Start weight taping her to check it’s working too. Shoes or boots may also help comfort wise which is key at this point.

 

[Nasicus]

Re: The second half of the field/bare paddock
That's not the bare paddock on the video. That's the middle of the end track which was taken for hay and is being saved for winter. The bare paddock is behind the camera at the start of the video, and it is barren. That area she is in is the only access to non-barren paddock she has, the rest is the barren paddock, and I shut them out of area shown on the video when the grass is doing it's thing. The fence at the end gets moved a foot or two every 2-3 days, sometimes longer in between and sometimes less than a foot.

I did write a whole paragraph on my struggle with her and her weight, but noone needs to hear me whinge. I've just spoken to the vet who say's we could potentially do a metaformin trial, to see if that can help get her loosing weight. So I'm going to consider trying that first, and reassess in once the trial is finished. If it helps her to shed the pounds, that should help with her arthritis. If she doesn't lose anything, or loses it and is still stiff and sore, I'll reassess from there.

 

[LaurenBobby]

Re: The second half of the field/bare paddock
That's not the bare paddock on the video. That's the middle of the end track which was taken for hay and is being saved for winter. The bare paddock is behind the camera at the start of the video, and it is barren. That area she is in is the only access to non-barren paddock she has, the rest is the barren paddock, and I shut them out of area shown on the video when the grass is doing it's thing. The fence at the end gets moved a foot or two every 2-3 days, sometimes longer in between and sometimes less than a foot.

I did write a whole paragraph on my struggle with her and her weight, but noone needs to hear me whinge. I've just spoken to the vet who say's we could potentially do a metaformin trial, to see if that can help get her loosing weight. So I'm going to consider trying that first, and reassess in once the trial is finished. If it helps her to shed the pounds, that should help with her arthritis. If she doesn't lose anything, or loses it and is still stiff and sore, I'll reassess from there.

That sounds like a sensible plan

 

[splashgirl45]

i agree, she is very fat and looks in foal from the back as the stomach is swaying from side to side, but you already have said that. i would keep her on pain relief so that she is more active. perhaps put boots on for half of the day and make her walk as much as poss while she has them on...with pain relief and cushioning she may be more active.... you know your horse and if you feel she doesnt have a good quality of life then PTS isnt a bad decision....hopefully it wont come to that if you can get her a bit thinner...good luck

 

[EllenJay]

I would definitely go for the Metformin trial. Once that weight is off she will be so much happier

 

[Nasicus]

i agree, she is very fat and looks in foal from the back as the stomach is swaying from side to side, but you already have said that. i would keep her on pain relief so that she is more active. perhaps put boots on for half of the day and make her walk as much as poss while she has them on...with pain relief and cushioning she may be more active.... you know your horse and if you feel she doesnt have a good quality of life then PTS isnt a bad decision....hopefully it wont come to that if you can get her a bit thinner...good luck

I was thinking of putting on her booties for part of the day, she has a pair of cavallo treks with thick foam inserts. Vet thought that was a good idea, so shall be doing that.
I feel a lot better about the situation than I did yesterday/this morning, so thank you all for hearing me out.
Conveniently, the youngster is off this weekend for 4 weeks of backing (well, 4 weeks of hacking really), so I have the length of the metaformin trial to really focus in on the weightloss.

 

[SEL]

I have the horse in my avatar on a danilon a day which helps his arthritis and the more comfortable he is the more he moves, which obviously helps his weight. He has his off days and there were a few earlier this year where I started to wonder if I needed to make That Call. Then I found him twisting himself into odd shapes to scratch and realised why he was so stiff and sore - sorted the itching with some piriton and he started to look himself again.

Danilon / bute isn't expensive and can make a real difference to their quality of life.

 

[Nasicus]

I have the horse in my avatar on a danilon a day which helps his arthritis and the more comfortable he is the more he moves, which obviously helps his weight. He has his off days and there were a few earlier this year where I started to wonder if I needed to make That Call. Then I found him twisting himself into odd shapes to scratch and realised why he was so stiff and sore - sorted the itching with some piriton and he started to look himself again.

Danilon / bute isn't expensive and can make a real difference to their quality of life.

Thankfully this one isn't itchy, I'd just about die if she was, the youngster is a sweetitch nightmare as it is! But a danilon a day it is, I have about 2 and 1/2 boxes left, so I'm certainly not short on it.

 

[ester]

I'm glad you are feeling better about it, I did toy with booting and padding frank (I do have cavallos and gloves), only the cavallo simples fit him though and they do rub a bit and I worry about them for other reasons with his history. He didn't seem superbly more comfortable in the gloves without pads but they were both there in -case (this was all made more complicated by the fact that I'm in cambs and he is in somerset these days). Good luck with the trial.